I vow to take the truths of the Tathagata's words. I'd like to introduce Michael Wenger, who is president of San Francisco Zen Center and longtime friend of Berkeley Zen Center here today to speak with us. It's okay if you cough and sneeze. I may cough and sneeze too. Over a thousand years ago, in China, there was someone named Seiko, who was very famous in that he loved dragons. He drew calligraphy of dragons, made sculptures of dragons, generally was gone on dragons. became quite famous.

[01:01]

It became so famous that even dragons heard of him. And the dragons were quite pleased that there was someone who was so appreciative of dragons. So I believe it was a dragon princess or some particularly handsome specimen a beautiful specimen of a dragon, went down to thank Senko in person. When Senko saw the dragon, he freaked. He pulled out his sword and then ran away. I sometimes think, this is the way we studied Zen too, or any subject. We may be enamored and like to study it from afar or as an object, but when we meet it face-on, it's not what we expect.

[02:12]

Sometimes Zen practice is described as reaching for your pillow in the middle of the night. You know it's there, but you don't know exactly where it is. My son Nathan, who's now four and a half, but when he was, oh, I don't know, nine months ago or a year ago, he is a, he's quite crazy about Ninja Turtles. And he collects all the figures of them and knows all the stories and all that. But he never saw the movie of a Ninja Turtle. And he's seen the cartoons, and that's one thing. But when we actually showed, we rented a video of Ninja Turtles, and when he actually saw a realistic Ninja Turtle, he was frightened. He didn't watch very much of it. He was frightened.

[03:23]

Many years ago, I remember a story which Richard Baker told about one of his dreams, which I thought was pretty good. It was a dream in which he was trying to figure out the solution to a question. And the red telephone was ringing. And he really wanted to figure out the answer to this question, and this phone kept ringing. Finally, on about the 16th ring, he picked it up, and of course the answer to his question was spoken. A few months ago, at the city center, which is called Beginner's Mind after Suzuki Yoshi's book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Paul was giving a lecture and he was talking about Beginner's Mind.

[04:34]

Then he started to talk about five aspects of Beginner's Mind, or stages, or something. Somebody, after the talk was over, questioned him and said, Beginner's Mind doesn't have five stages. How can a Beginner's Mind have five stages? Of course, Paul had been quoting from Suzuki Roshi, but it doesn't matter. In a way, he's right. Beginner's mind basically means you don't have stages. However, real beginner's mind may mean that maybe there are stages you can talk about. Your beginner's mind leaves out what can happen. I don't know if it's exactly beginner's mind. Of course, we all start out with ideas, expectations, hopes, and I think it's folly to think that you can totally discard them, or that it's even good to.

[05:40]

But you know, the real dragon, or the real answer, or what's really going on, or what Zen is about, It may be back here. It's not something you can exactly see as an object. It may even be here, the eyes that are looking out. But it's not exactly something that you can perceive and understand as an object. The real dragon, there's another story. I'm almost exhausted with my anecdotes, but there's one. In Jainism, and in Indian philosophy in general, they talk about this parable, which I think many of you know, about an elephant. I think there are nine wise men, or some amount of wise men, and they each touch the elephant, and they touch a different part, and they describe the elephant as a snake, if they touch the trunk, as a tree, as a tree if they get the leg.

[06:53]

If they were blind. That's right. There's a key piece. They're blind, and each feels a different part of the elephant, and they all have a different understanding of what the elephant is. And of course, none of them is exactly wrong. None of them is exactly right. And of course, we come to study Zen. Of course, we want to learn as much about Zen as possible, read as much, and that's fine. But at some point in each of our Zen practice, we may say, that can't be Zen. Well, maybe it can't be, but maybe it is. Because the true dragon is not... See, if we know and understand everything, we know and understand everything we know.

[08:07]

But that may be a small subset of what there is. Because what Zen practice is about, what the answer to your question is about, what a ninja turtle is, is partially out there, can partially be described, but it's partially behind here. It's partially in how we see it. It's partially in our understandings before we even see a dragon of what a dragon is. And what maybe the phrase beginner's mind is saying is, before there's a dragon, what is a dragon? Before you have any idea of a dragon, or in the midst of your ideas of a dragon, can you meet a dragon? You know, it's nice to have a hobby or a subject that we know a lot about and we can describe and feel comfortable with and get excited about and be very safe.

[09:35]

But the Ninja Turtles that we may be excited about, when we see even somebody else's version of them, they frighten us, let alone whatever a Ninja Turtle is. And people actually, you know, as you probably know here, the people who become the most and the most zealous and the most glowing about what Zen is. We're a little bit more suspicious though, because when they meet the true dragon or the true Zen, their high exaltations may not match.

[10:44]

Because it's behind here. You know, it's not exactly what I'm saying. And it's not that we shouldn't study and try to learn things as an object. Because, in fact, if you say, it's not an object and I'm not going to study it, you've already set it outside of that. You've already limited what the dragon is. It can't be studied. It's not that it can't be studied. It can't be grasped. If you say it can't be studied, then why study?

[11:54]

Well, you've made a very small dragon. It can't even be studied. It's no accident that Seiko liked dragons, or that many of us like to study Zen. It's not exactly that it's all from our own projection in making up. But we shouldn't limit it by our projection in what we make up. So if the telephone can't give you the answer, maybe it can.

[13:25]

Maybe the post can give you the answer. Maybe even this lecture can give you the answer. All the far out things. Unlikely, but to be open to the possibilities of everything, to not be closed down by your own ideas of what possibilities be groping. Groping means not that you're not looking, not that you don't have an inkling, but you don't exactly know, because the world is bigger than you can know. The possibilities are bigger than you can know. Not that you shouldn't know. Not that you shouldn't be always being able to know wider possibilities.

[14:30]

That's very helpful. Because, in fact, each one of us has an idea of what a dragon looks like. Or doesn't look like. And some of us may be more accurate than others. Or at any given instant, we may be more accurate than another instant. You know, thinking or a refined mental apparatus is very useful. I don't think it would be particularly productive if we all had lobotomies. But they're just one part. It shouldn't be the boss.

[15:35]

We get data from our senses. We get data from our thinking. We get data from all kinds of possibilities. If we let our thinking rule what our senses say, then we may say, oh, that can't be a dragon. That can't be Zen. I'd like to give you time to talk, so I just want to close with the ending of the Fukanza Zenge, which actually alludes to both of these. And it says, please honored followers of Zen, long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be suspicious of the true dragon.

[16:41]

Devote your energies in a way that directly indicates the absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment who is beyond all human agency. Gain accord with the enlightenment of the Buddhas. Succeed to the legitimate lineage of the ancestors' samadhi. Constantly perform in such a manner, and you are assured of being a person such as they. Your treasure store will open of itself, and you will use it at will. Here's some questions. I hope I haven't frightened you up. Well, I just want to thank you. I was thinking about the English painter Francis Bacon when we were talking.

[17:44]

You notice where he paints dark, isolated figures that are seemingly in pain and sometimes dismembered. I think I understood what he said in light of your talk this morning, and I want to thank you very much. Would you like to say a little more? No, that's it. If you're familiar with the paintings, then maybe it makes more sense than if you're not. You know, most painters have a distinctive tone or style or something that you can recognize.

[19:05]

I think what we can appreciate about each is the connectedness. I think the painting shows us how we're all connected in the moment. And different aspects are pointed out by different painters. You talked about wanting to understand Zen. I realized that I've never wanted to understand Zen. I wanted to understand my life and why I do things and try to make it clear and comfortable and logical. So I guess I just substituted life for Zen. And of course, Zen can be looked at as a process rather than as an object, and so can life.

[20:05]

What value is experience? What do you value? Repetition. Repetition is experience over and over. Well, I think whatever we got, we should treasure. And that's partially experience, and that's partially imagination, and whatever. We shouldn't try to limit it. So that's my best. And if you value repetition, that's good. However, why do you not treasure uniqueness or non-repetition? In a way, practice is repetition, right?

[21:13]

But another way, it's seeing a unique moment. When I give meditation instruction, I usually say, we keep certain things as constant as possible, to notice how other things change. So you keep your posture constant, you keep your mental attitude afraid the frame of the picture you keep constant, and then anything can come by, any picture can arise. If you don't keep the frame, any picture can arise, but you don't even notice, you haven't created the canvas in which you can notice the change. Yes? What's Nathan think about the Ninja Turtles now? Well, it's like he blocked that part out, and I don't think he's... probably soon we'll probably try again with a Ninja Turtle movie.

[22:20]

But it kind of... he's just... that frightened him, but he was still interested. And I think there are parts of our life and parts of our practice which may frighten us, and it's okay to put it to the side for a while and say, oh, that's... It's weird. In fact, one of the advantages, I think, of the meditation posture and sitting over and over is it creates a certain kind of strength, a certain kind of endurance, a certain kind of repetition or stick-to-itiveness in which when dragons appear, you're not as blown away as you could be. It's like, whoa. And it's also fine during your practice. That was weird. I didn't understand that. Maybe I'm not quite ready for that yet. Let's put it to the side. Not deny that it's a dragon, or that it's Zen, or just give yourself some time. But actually, if you ask him that question, he'll just bubble on about Ninja Turtles, and what kind of pizzas they like, and what are their characteristics of the different kinds.

[23:32]

Of course, what I think about Ninja Turtles is I am fascinated by their appeal. It's interesting. I mean, when I was growing up, could I imagine that all the kids would be talking about turtles that were mutated into human beings? But they're Renaissance artists. Well, they're given the name of Renaissance artists. Oh, I thought they really were. No, no. They were named by their master. I mean, that's the story. No. No. As the story goes, as the story goes, they started out as turtles. And some mutant should... And then they're imprinted by the first thing they see. And the first thing they saw was this martial arts guy. Anyhow. It's very, and it's, you know, even though I can say what my thoughts are about it, but it's very interesting that it has such a mass appeal.

[24:44]

And whatever you say, whatever I would say about it is not what Nathan would say about it. But it's interesting. I think it has to do with our, with the general consciousness about the environment and the rapidity of change, all kinds of things that are not conscious elements of it, but I think we all have had some experience of being overly self-conscious.

[26:00]

It wasn't too much this morning, but of course coming into this room with all of you staring at me and bowing and then being told that it's an unsurpassed... But, you know, part of, I think, any real engagement is to realize and take ourselves so seriously, which is easily said. Part about the wisdom of self-consciousness, and I always think it's very important to realize the wisdom of traits we don't like. I mean, what's the positive side that they're telling us? Because there's some positive element to it.

[27:03]

The positive side of self-consciousness is realizing that everything counts. That everything you do has effects. That it may be over-amped. to the extent, to some extent, but that everything you do has effects is one of the basic truths of Buddhism. It's part of the law of karma, that everything you do has effects. To realize that, and to try to do things somewhat consciously, so you have conscious effects that create the effects that you want, that's the truth side. That's one way of looking at the truth side of being self-conscious. The downside may be a kind of inflation of how much you do has its effects and what it means, and also a kind of, maybe, control.

[28:04]

All the things I've talked about today, I could also talk about the issues of control, art to do with the issues of control, and letting go. The upside is that there are two basic principles I think we can talk about in Buddhism are, one, that everything you do has effects, and that everything is multiply determined. So while everything has effects, it's also multiply affected. In other words, whatever happens is not just what you do, but it's what everybody does. You're one participating piece. And I think we tend, where we get into trouble is when we tend to think we're either powerless or we're in control. Neither of those are true. But we are participating. But, you know, any real engagement, you know, self-consciousness also happens when you're in the edge of something.

[29:14]

When you're really far away, or when you're really in the gears working, self-consciousness usually doesn't happen. But when you're on the edge, it's a little more self-consciousness. But I think about some of that stuff, too. I have self-consciousness about different things. And often they're in certain areas we have self-consciousness about. We may not have self-consciousness about both the positive and the negative sides of self-consciousness about what we eat, or we may be overly concerned about what we eat, or we may be very conscious about relationships, or maybe only certain kinds of relationships. But it's interesting. It gives us a lot of data. It gives me a lot of data when I notice what I am self-conscious about. Also, what is so very important about Well, I think for what you were saying about self-consciousness, I've been experiencing anger, just tremendous rage in the last few days.

[30:28]

And I've been looking at it, and I realized that it is like a wake-up call. There's something here that's important to me. What is it I want? Not that I need to go and, you know, dump on people or something. It's really been forcing me to wake up, and it's been extremely uncomfortable because I don't want to wake up. And that's a... You know, so there's an upside to that. No, that's a very good point. I think any what we consider negative thing has a positive side. And anger, I often see anger as being very positive, particularly if one tends to be passive. Then anger is the kind of... is a wake-up call. I can't ignore it. The problem is, from the evolutionary point of view, is that we often get involved in the anger, rather than, it's the telephone ringing. We get involved in, you know, if it's just the telephone ringing, you say, ah, I should wake up.

[31:34]

That's one thing. But then if you get involved with the anger and justifying why you should be angry, that's when it gets to be, that's when it gets to be counterproductive. But just the anger, just I feel about this, this is important to me. And that, you know, talking to myself and trying to work it out alone has just made, it's just like a fantasy of control issues which have nothing to do with the real person, you know, or people that I'm angry with. It's not, you know, it has to get handled in a day-to-day way. Whenever I'm angry or depressed, I say, well, what did I want that I didn't get? And then when I see that, I say, oh, well, yeah, it would have been nice to have that. And also, you know, the world doesn't have to give me that. And so it's both an appreciation of where I was coming from in my disappointment or depression, you know, what I wanted, and also that it doesn't have to go that way.

[32:38]

But I think that the frame you talked about of sitting, of practice, allows you to see that sort of thing. Certainly it goes from there. I was interested in your reading a phrase caught my attention indicating at all. Well, I think he does. Actually, I think he... Well, I mean, if he continues to be attracted to them, yet he was frightened by this movie version, his image is completely different than the one that he saw on the screen.

[33:46]

Otherwise, he would be conjuring up something that scares him, and obviously it doesn't. So, I mean, I remember when This is their appealing to a sort of, you know, early teen audience. They're trying to expand their base by pumping a little violence, you know. This is sort of modification of what a Ninja Turtle is, you know. But obviously Nathan has his own Ninja Turtle. Anyway, what is an absolute Ninja Turtle? I don't know. But I guess these are all indications of what a Ninja Turtle really is. Well, The Absolute has got more with the elephant story, I think, but the interesting thing about the Seiko story is they actually send down a handsome, or they send down an attractive looking, because it's supposed to be meant as a compliment.

[34:53]

But on the other hand, Hollywood, even when it gets to be scary, is actually, if I imagine, A mutated turtle. I mean, I think it's even uglier than that. But, who knows, right? Who knows what the real mutant Ninja Turtle is? Where is the real dragon? Where is the real thing? Shall we each paint our picture? I guess to tie up my thought, I guess in both those Ninja Turtles there is that indication of a real Ninja Turtle. I think it's about all you can get out of art to mean what else or life, for that matter. Veracity? An indication of it. Oh, an indication. Oh, yeah. But as with the elephant story, the indication, even though it may be excellent, accurate, exact, is partial.

[36:05]

It's a lot better than nothing. It's better than nothing if it doesn't hinder you from seeing the rest of the elephant. If it does, sometimes it may be worse. Do you understand? It's better than nothing in the fact that if you at least understand the trunk, right, of the elephant. But if it keeps you, if you start, whenever you see a snake, you see that as an elephant, There's a definite downside to that. If you see it as, oh, elephants have snake-like qualities, then it's additive. But unfortunately, it's too much of our mind frames that makes it subtractive. Today or yesterday, I was looking at three treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The way I was... I mean, maybe this... I don't know.

[37:12]

This has something to do with what you were talking about, about a dragon. And the particular dragon was Sangha. In other words... In other words... Other people. And... Anyway... It's so easy to be separate. It's so easy to hear what other people are saying and be with other people, but really still be separate. mean to surrender?

[38:21]

And can I do that? I have a sort of glimpse of that. I don't think It's very supportive without meaning to ask for anything. Something like that. That's all. And of course, it grows when you also see how not only are you other people, but other people are you.

[39:40]

The problem is, we tend to, once again, get subtractive about this kind of thing. That means that if I am other people, that means I have to negate all my distinction. No, but other people are distinct too. But there is a great release in knowing that, and I think particularly our culture kind of emphasizes this part, that we're all these separate little entities fending for ourselves, which are distinct and unique, and in fact in which we should maximize our distinction and uniqueness. And it's not that that's wrong. Because I think it can be argued that in some societies that minimize that distinction, that there is also something lost. But there's something that's very narrow and selfish about that understanding, that actually puts us into a part where we don't realize our connectedness to each other, to the environment, to Ninja Turtles.

[40:47]

I think that in order to take a vision out, or to connect, one has to have faith. From my own experience, when I try to have faith, I think of Buddha or God, and then I try to trust that no matter what I do, I will be taken care of, and connect with the universal, big part. with the positive side of people's heart. And I think when, and that the refuse come in because then I don't have to be in control of everything. Everyone else also have his own responsibility and pressure in that situation. And so I'm able to be just a small part of that situation when we have everything come in.

[42:05]

I think we all have different modes. The faith mode, the positive side of the faith mode is as you described. But not all of us are built with that faith model. Not all of us. That's not necessarily the path for everyone, the faith model. But as you described it, it's very good. It's the process that is not for everyone. Seeing the connectedness of things? Yes. And having faith and letting go? Yes. Well, what you described is, you know, sometimes described as the compassion or heart or faith side. And then there's also the doubting side, questioning. And I think that can bring you to the same place. When you really say, well, I'm going to control things. And I'm going to do it the best I can. And you really look at it, and you get to a point where you realize you can't control nothing. It's not a faith.

[43:12]

It's not a belief. It's not a warm feeling. It's just like, it doesn't work. It's two sides of one coin. Yeah. They're both true. It's just which mode you approach it from. That's what the really frustrating thing is. We can say don't control and you shouldn't try to control, but even if you try to control, even if you're very talented, even if you're very skilled, you can postpone. The more skilled you are, you can postpone noticing the bald fact that you can't control anything. You know, if you're very beautiful, you can try to control things by your beauty. If you're very smart, you can try to control things by being very smart. If you're very, you know, whatever. If you're very skilled in some area, you can try to control things by your skill. But, you know, a wooden Buddha doesn't last in fire.

[44:18]

A stone Buddha can be smashed. We have to meet things Well, is this our time? Seems like it. Seems like a good time? Well, thanks very much. I always enjoy coming here and I always appreciate the strength of this sangha.

[44:45]

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