Good morning. I'd like to introduce our speaker this morning, Bob Rosenbaum, whose Garmin name is Meikyo Unza, Clear Mirror Calm City. And Bob's been a practitioner here at Berkley Zen Center for over 25 years and prior to that in other venues. He's retired from a career as a clinical psychologist at Kaiser. And he received lay entrustment from Sojin Roshi not long ago. I can't remember when. A couple of years. Yeah. And he now has time to travel extensively in Himalayan regions of Asia. There's a lot more to say, which I will not say. And I'll leave it to Bob. Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Peter. Nice to be here.

[01:01]

Is this on? Is it loud enough? Okay. I often like to start these talks by referring to the chant that goes before it, an unsurpassed penetrating dharma is rarely met with, which can be misleading. It doesn't mean that unsurpassed, penetrating dharmas are rare. They're constant, ever-present, everywhere we go. The problem is, we rarely meet them. So the question is, how do we meet them? That's what our practice is about. But there's a kind of problem that sometimes comes up in our practice that I see, which is, we try too hard.

[02:14]

So, you know, the sound of a phone, crack of a pebble against bamboo. Actually, as we were coming up the steps, I took off my sandals, and they have Velcro, and they kind of went... I thought, that's the pebble against bamboo. Modern version. Wakes you up. Kind of fun. But there's this kind of, there's one aspect of Zen which is try hard, try hard, you know, put forth full effort. And we go through all these contortions about it. And in my experience, it's good to do that, but usually when we meet the Dharma, it meets us, it often happens kind of unexpectedly. almost despite ourselves. I remember Sojin once saying, you know, you rarely hear of enlightenment experiences during a sasen.

[03:24]

Why do we do sasen so often? It's good to do sasen, but it often does come unexpectedly. So in this talk I want to talk about I think a good way of meeting the Dharma everywhere and everyone, which is through wu-wei, effortless effort, doing non-doing. It's a Taoist term, but it's central to Zen as well. Yesterday in the seniors' meeting, we actually had a moment kind of like this. where we were studying the gentro koan and we were reading paragraphs out loud and Laurie at one point commented, gee, you know, when I read this myself it's just kind of, wow, but when I hear each of us reading it, I kind of get it.

[04:34]

And each of us kind of went, oh, yes. And then we tried to put into words without as much success. But there's, I think, a really lovely description of it in Keisei Sanshoku, Valley Sounds, Mountain Colors, which is the fascicle we'll be studying in the Mountains and Rivers session retreat at the end of this month for any of you who are going. And it says, it's a fascicle by Dogen, it says, slipping out of your old husk, not constrained by past views or intellectual understanding, what has been dormant for boundless eons appears before you. At this very moment, as this nowness manifests, I doesn't know.

[05:39]

Who doesn't know? You have no expectations, and the Buddha's eye sees beyond seeing. I really like that. I think it's an accurate description. Could you read it again? Sure. Slipping out of your old husk, not constrained by past views or intellectual understanding, what has been dormant for boundless eons appears before you at this very moment as this nowness manifests. I don't know. Who doesn't know? You have no expectations, and the Buddhist eye sees beyond seeing. What does that mean or refer to? In a way it sounds, I think we have a concept which gets in the way that we think everything has to sort of stop.

[06:41]

A lot of these descriptions, you know, the pebble hits the bamboo, everything stops. And that's true. But there's another way of looking at it. There's a koan in the Blue Cliff Record, koan number 80, where a student asks Joshu, does a newborn babe have the sixth consciousness? And Joshu says, oh, it's like tossing a ball on a moving stream. And a student later asks Tosu, what's tossing a ball on a moving stream? And Tosu replies, moment to moment, non-stop flow. I would summarize it in two words. Moving still. Still moving. Always. Always. Every moment.

[07:43]

Don't think that moving and stillness are two different things. You have to find the stillness within the movement and the movement within the stillness. It's one of the reasons I practice Qigong. It helps me do that, and it's also a description of what Satsen is. Well, let's get a little bit more practical about this. So how do you do this? How do you do this? Well, one way is through sitting Satsen, and in that regard I want to take a little bit of a detour and just take a moment to encourage at least some of you to consider sitting full lotus. I heard someone just sounded a little skeptical there. Now I have to tell you that I started sitting this way when I was 18. Makes it easier and I have no idea what it would be like in your

[08:54]

50s or 60s to start doing this. I just don't know But certainly for folks who are younger, I think it's really worth considering Now there's no virtue to it. Okay, you don't get extra enlightenment points for it But the advantage is, and I've talked to a surgeon about this and he encouraged me to bring this up, there are several advantages. One of which is, it is honest, it's really the most comfortable way to sit once your body really gets it because it's really stable. You're really well balanced. Your pelvis When we sit Zazen, we want the pelvis to rest evenly on the mat. And if one leg is not, you know, it's tucked under the other, it's just harder to do that.

[09:59]

You can, but this makes it a little easier. But the other thing I've been noticing just recently, this is after 40, 50 years of sitting in it, is it really helps with your feet. And when you sit sasan, very important to have your whole body fully engaged. And I find it really helpful to sit sasan through my feet, because I have a tendency through the course of the day to sort of have things come up here, and to let things really settle, settle, settle, to have the mind here as well, really helps. Also from a traditional Chinese medicine standpoint, half of the acupuncture meridians start or stop in the feet and some of those meridians actually go all the way from the feet up through your legs, up through your body, up to your head.

[11:05]

So there's this up and down anchoring which occurs Again, that contributes to comfort. I can honestly say that during sessions, generally speaking, I don't get pain in my legs. My back's another issue. But not my legs. So it really is possible. And also, one other thing I want to point out, you know, if you look at pictures of the iconography, Buddhist iconography, you see Dharma wheels on the feet. they're actually at a point called the yang chen, very important acupuncture point. And working with that point is just very helpful, not just when you're sitting zazen, but when you're, in the course of your daily life, you can do zazen through that point in your feet. And for any of you who want to come to the Q&A after tea,

[12:08]

I'll spend just a few minutes at the beginning helping you find this point and just feel like what's it like to stand on this and to use it to open to the ground to engage your body. Now having said all that about, oh yeah, full load is really good stuff. Yeah, but how do you get into this position in the first place? And I can tell you one way which does not work And that's trying too hard. I mean, there's one sad story about someone who, you know, all their life they wanted to be able to sit in full lotus and when they were dying, they got up and they broke their leg and went, ah, and died. Not a good idea. Not recommended. But how do you work with your body to get into a position that it's not comfortable with? I mean, this applies not just to getting into full lotus, but sitting sasan, sitting in a chair, walking, whatever.

[13:15]

Most of us have old conditioned habits which are hard to work with. Well, this is where wu-wei comes in, effortless effort. You know, it's the old thing where if you don't do anything about it, nothing's going to happen, but if you try too hard to get there, it's not going to work either. So, I remember when I was first learning, I would, you know, sort of get my leg maybe up this high, and I'd say, okay, I'm going to sit like that for five minutes. And I'd sit like that for five minutes, and then I'd go back to this, and that was fine. And then, you know, gradually I'd get it up a little higher and a little higher, and just little by little, as my body said, that's okay, I'm willing to. But you have to listen to your body, and you have to, Wu Wei comes, not so much through your muscles. We're used to exercising effort through our muscles and one needs to meet the Dharma through your skin and flesh and bones and marrow.

[14:27]

There's a koan or story about that, Bodhidharma's skin, flesh, bones and marrow and when Dogen comments on it he says They're all equally important. It's integrating all of them together, so that they co-operate. How do you get your mind to co-operate with your body, and your body to co-operate with your mind? You can't force it. Right? Or at least, when I try to force it, which I do too much of, get into a fight with myself so there's a way of kind of easing into it aiming without aiming and it's very important to drop gaining mind which doesn't mean self-sacrifice you know asceticism it means

[15:29]

as Sojin sometimes says, or his instructions for Zazen, just let go of everything and see what the moment is calling for and then harmonize with that. So it's not gaining a skill or learning how to do something. There's a verse in the Tao Te Ching which describes it rather well. It's verse 48. We're not learning to do something. It says, seek learning, work at studies, Increase daily. Practice the way, decrease daily. Lose, let go, decrease until you reach non-doing, wu-wei. Non-doing, yet nothing's left undone. to govern the world, don't interfere with its going about its business.

[16:32]

If you're a busy body, you can't govern the world. So the real question for us, or one of the big questions for us in our practice is, can you trust this? Can you let go of striving and protecting and making things happen enough to trust that if you really let yourself go along with non-doing, which doesn't exactly mean don't do anything, if you can go along with non-doing and harmonize with the moment, will nothing be left undone? And this is where faith comes in, and trust. Not so easy. But it comes down to, you know, when Tozan was enlightened, he looked at his reflection and he said, oh, I'm not it, it actually is me.

[17:42]

This is crucial. We're pretty full of ourselves, and when you realize It's actually you. You're a vehicle for it. Something shifts. Tozan says, oh, I go on alone, but I meet myself everywhere. Every moment becomes an unsurpassed, complete and penetrating Dharma. So Suzuki Roshi along these lines says, you know, thinking that you're doing Zazen, big mistake. But where does effort come from? Gee, some years ago, I was struggling with this issue, and it was kind of a co-op for me. Where does effort come from? And I was working with Sojin, and one day, in Dogasan, Sojin said, so where does effort come from?

[18:46]

And what popped out for me was unborn love. Effort comes from unborn love. This is the teaching of the unborn and it always wants to come out. It's natural. You don't have to force it. So, parathetically, I think, you know, we used to have a different translation of the Metta Sutra and I've been thinking we made a mistake in altering it. Right now we say may I be strenuous this is what should be accomplished by the one who is wise who seeks the good and has obtained peace may I be strenuous upright and sincere easily contented and joyous it used to be we say let one be upright strenuous sincere let one be I like that better instead of

[19:50]

I'm going to be this. It's let the oneness come through. I like that. I think it's more in line with wu-wei. But a lot of wu-wei is not getting in the way of the way. Not getting in your own way. And a lot of that's about relaxing. You know, Dogen says, thus it's not learning to do concentration, it's the gateway to great ease and joy. Generally speaking, if you're finding yourself straining, it's a warning sign. If you find something's opening and releasing, and you're experiencing ease and joy, it's kind of, hmm. Well, let's go back to practicalities for a moment. I've been sick this week, still not feeling great.

[20:54]

And Tuesday morning I got up and I planned to go to the Zendo, but I slept late and I felt a little bit guilty. And I kind of went, now wait a second. I'm not feeling well. Why am I feeling guilty for not going into the Zendo? And there's kind of a, you should go in, you know, no matter what. You know, one of the psychological rules for dealing with irrational guilt is if there's something that you do and you feel irrationally guilty about it, you should do it more and more until the guilt wears off. It's an interesting psychological technique. That doesn't mean I'm saying don't come into the Zen Dojo whenever you don't feel like it. But there are times when you need to go, okay, this is what the moment needs. It's less. not more.

[21:56]

It made me think about the needs of the Sangha and several of us have said, gee, I'm getting older and it's kind of hard getting in early in the morning. I started thinking, hmm, I wonder if we should have a few Zazen periods like for retired folks at 7.30 in the morning. I'm retired. I can come at 7.30. Anyone else want to come at 7.30? Oh, look at all those hands! Now, I don't know what the right proportion is. It's always a trick. How do you find the right proportion between pushing a little on the edge, but not too much? So it's right effort. Finding right effort is finding what the moment's effort requires not thinking that your actions are purely self-centered or self-generated all of our actions none of our actions are our own they come from generations and generations of conditioning from the manifestation from the dharma none of our actions are our own but they're not anybody else's either

[23:17]

It's a funny dynamism. But if you say, well, it's not all about me and it's not my effort, then you have to trust that something comes forth. But that's kind of scary. At least for me, it took a long time to trust in the Dharma coming through. How to trust, how to get to that spot of letting right effort manifest itself and there's advice in many places but one of them is verse three of the Tao Te Ching govern by emptying the mind of discrimination giving the belly what it truly needs without straining muscles in willfulness the bones strengthen in their marrow acting less harmonizing more from effortless effort, order emerges naturally.

[24:26]

Wow! Order emerges naturally. What a concept! Can you believe that? Can you trust it? Well, for non-discrimination is the key. Non-discrimination means letting go of your personal point of view, treating everything as equal. In the recent newsletter, Sojin had a little article on the first verse of the Tao Te Ching, which treats with non-discrimination and not knowing. Sojin was kind enough to write an introduction for my forthcoming book on the Tao Te Ching So we've been kind of talking about these issues a bit. A lot of you may have heard the first verse of the Tao Te Ching which goes, the way that can be spoken of is not the eternal way.

[25:30]

The name that can be named is not the immortal name. Nameless the source of earth and sky. Names engender everything. Then the second part, let me read Sojin's version first. Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source. This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all understanding. So non-discrimination is a kind of darkness, Desire is a form of discrimination in compiling my version of translation I Went at it slightly different way. Let me read the other version Just in case it opens something for you Unfettered by desire the mystery reveals itself Wanting this gives rise to that I

[26:48]

But beyond named and nameless, reality still flows. Unfathomable. The arch, the door, the gate. Unfathomable. You have to let go of discriminative understanding. Let go of grasping. Zhuangzi says, you know, everyone has the mind as their teacher. The problem is they think they have to understand it first. Just listen. Harmonize. It's finding your way by harmonizing. Finding your place where you are, that's the Genjo Koan. So ultimately, Wu Wei, Right Effort, Doing Not Doing, is about how something emerges from emptiness, from the dark unknowing, from the empty hub. Things come. But this emptiness, that which is not, it's soft, it's compassionate and joyful and accepting and kind.

[27:53]

Let me end by reading verse 43 of the Tao Te Ching, which I really like a lot. The softest, most pliable thing in the world overcomes the hardest of all things in the That which is not penetrates, though there's not the slightest crevice or crack. Wonderful, wonderful, effortless effort. Wordless teaching. Returning to silence. Thinking, non-thinking. Beneficial, non-doing. rare realization, incomparable, matchless. So I'm happy to say we have time for questions, discussion.

[29:09]

Just one word about questions. I'd like to offer this time for questions of two sorts. Just ordinary questions like, what was that about, or could you say more about, or I think such and such, fine. But those are the questions we usually have. But you know there's an old Zen tradition that in lectures sometimes somebody would ask a kind of mondo, a question which is more of a Shosan kind of thing. I like Shosan a lot and I've learned that in some Zen centers they have everyone do Shosan, including beginners. Because the answers don't come from you. I'll explain in just a moment. So Shosan is more like you ask a very short, pithy question from your heart, you know, that you want to be met and just have a response, you know, which gets to the heart of the matter.

[30:21]

So it kind of cuts through discriminative thinking. So discriminative questions are fine, but if you want to ask a Shosan type of question, that's fine too, but signal me. So I know what kind of response to give. And you can signal me by just address me as Meiko, my Dharma name, just say, Meiko, and ask your question. And I'll try and respond in that way. Or ask an ordinary question, and I'll fumble around. I'll fumble around anyway. What questions might you have? Yes. You said, I believe, in order to, one way of finding out about how to experience stillness and movement is sitting Zazen. Can you say a little more about that without the idea of, like, wanting to do Zazen to get something?

[31:27]

Sure. In the virtue of that. You know, when I first started doing Zazen, and for too many years. I should say there's some people who take this as a naturally and I never have. It's always been somewhat difficult for me. But one of the ways that I made it difficult for myself was to think if I just sit a certain way and get my mind to focus a certain way then everything will just go click and everything will be wonderful. And although that happens sometimes, most of the times if I'm sitting, you know, I'll sit very, very still and then there'll be a twitch, or the mind will settle, settle, settle, and the next thing I know it's over there. And so the more still that I got, the more I was noticing how movement would come up, even without my intention.

[32:35]

And then the question was, well, how much do you intentionally not move? And I spent a couple of years not moving. Not moving. Oh, damn, there it goes again. And how much do you allow yourself to move? Usually what I find now is if I really settle and relax my body and mind release in ways that something will move even though I don't try to make the adjustment the adjustment happens and that works better generally than when I'm sitting here going okay so I can feel that my left hip is a little higher than my right hip so if I kind of go like this now sometimes I need to do that too But trusting my body and mind to find their way has been really helpful but initially scary because it meant I have to rely on something beyond me.

[33:56]

Thank you. I've been sitting in this, um, there's a word for it that a lot of people know, you know, or the, what's it say? Caesar? Yeah. And it seems anchored. Oh? You know, I mean, I was sitting, actually I was able to sit in a lotus, but my poor ankles were like 90 degree angles. Yeah, it's tough on ankles. Yeah. Um, even the half lotus. And this is, I mean, so, That's fine. I mean there's nothing wrong with sitting another way. All I'm saying is if this is available to you, if your body is willing to entertain this as a possibility, don't ignore it. It's just that why isn't this as good as the lotus position since it's so anchoring? It is as good, it's just different. So because it's different, every position of our body teaches us something else.

[35:04]

So I can push my arm down like that, that's fine for certain things, or I can let my arm come down like that, and that does something else. It's just increasing your range of possibilities. So yeah, it's hard on the ankles. On the other hand, having the bottom face the top brings heaven and earth together. It's nice. That's all. Nice. Not better. Thank you. Linda. Mikio. Hi. Where's Bob? Right here. Why do you have two names? I have more than two. No problem? Why should there be a problem? You confuse me. Yes. Whatever. Mom? Hey, Joe. Hi. So you never really took Tsubasa?

[36:09]

No. Why keep trying? Why put effort? Sheer foolishness. Thank you. Hi. What is trust? With your eyes open, doing absolutely nothing. Love. Pure love. Is that where it comes from? It doesn't come from anywhere. It's always right here. And what is motivation? Illusion. What is effort?

[37:09]

Ease. Mikio, everything is empty. Does anything ever really happen? Absolutely. Is it possible to forget about the emptiness in movement? Oh yes. Just move. Again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Each time, completely fresh, like a newborn babe. Thank you. Looking in the mirror, terrifying. I mostly can't face it.

[38:15]

Any suggestions? Let the mirror look in the mirror. Thank you. You had the idea of soliciting Shosan type of remarks. Was there not some ego in that? I first thought of this a few years ago and there was ego there. Now I think I hope it's a gift to the Sangha. But I didn't expect so many people to do it. How do you teach effortless without effort?

[39:24]

By enjoying what I'm doing. For those of you who want to ask discriminating questions, don't be scared. Yes, thank you. What's the difference between the two responses? It's interesting you should ask because Just before then, I was thinking, well, discriminating question, Shosan question, really no difference. But as a New Yorker, I have a tendency to talk a lot, and it's much easier to talk a lot if I'm doing discriminating, so it's more comfortable for me.

[40:29]

But really, no difference, just style. A little more here with one, and a little more here with the other, I'd say. And what's discerning between the two? What's discerning? What doesn't discern? Who doesn't know? Grace brings us together. I love the mountains.

[41:31]

I love the people. And when I was little, My family said I had spilchus in tuchus, which means splinters in your buttocks. A great type of guy to take up sitting. Yeah. I don't know, to tell. Thank you. How are those people, those mountains, different from These people, these mountains. In those mountains, someone else carries my heavy load?

[42:34]

Not sure, but... Not sure, but... I just want to thank you for your gift and your talk today. Each time I speak with you personally or when you address the sangha, you always remind us that we have bodies so that we can forget them forever. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Who carries your loads here? blistered feet, chafed shoulders, empty sky. Bob? Yes. I didn't quite understand how the people carry your load.

[43:46]

Well, literally, Sherpas and porters carry my load, and that's really nice. But also, there is something about being in the Himalayas, which much as I love the Sierras, something opens up for me there, which I can't describe and keeps drawing me back. So it is somewhat mysterious. I really planned, I went there first in 2000 and I planned to go once and I left there going well that was really wonderful and I keep going back. There is, I see it's almost time, but there's a great dialogue in Tozan, the sayings of Tung Shan, which might be a nice wrap up here. So someone, a monk's been wandering around and comes to Tozan and Tozan says, oh, where have you been?

[44:58]

The monk says, oh, I've been wandering around in the mountains. And Tozan says, oh, did you get to the top? Meaning, were you enlightened? The monk says, yeah. Tozan says, was there anyone there on top? And the monk says, nope, nobody was there. To which Tozan says, if nobody was there, how do you know you got to the top? To which the monk says, if I hadn't gotten to the top, how could I have known that there was nobody there?

[45:37]

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