I'm interested, actually my son is interested in Buddhism somehow, so it's a little easier. He has some feeling for what I'm doing and I can also go both ways. So that seems to be the primary practice when you have a child, is to figure out how to take care of their civilizing practice, implanting a seed in them, but also then to further your own understanding. So that's my question, is how do you work on both those levels at the same time. Enlightenment is something to do with this subject, and we say to take your summit further. Everything is, it's not philosophy, it is how we see things,

[01:08]

so that how to reproduce this new world to come. We have big tasks to construct. More questions? He says that yes, we have to build a pure land. Well, isn't it a matter of extrapolation?

[02:40]

It's like four things you have to figure out. You have to figure out what was there then, and what answered the need then, and how successfully did it do it, and based on what principles. And then what is here now, and how is it compared to what was there then, and how could a parallel solution that would be as successful or more successful be developed. So that's like three knowns to reach to an unknown. I agree with you, but I don't think that means you can neglect the other thing. You have to figure that out in its context, and then figure out how this will grow. You're like transplanting a tree, I think. It grew well in another soil. You know the nature of that soil, and you know the nature of that tree, and you study the soil here, and then you figure out what you have to do with that tree, so it's going to grow well in this soil, and to benefit this soil. I have a practice question that relates to a lay practice,

[03:42]

and I especially would like Rinpoche's opinion on this, and also I want to be corrected if I have a misunderstanding of Kadagiri's position. But it seems to me that in listening to Kadagiri, and reading Thich Nhat Hanh, that there is a meditation that each of us can perform every minute, and that's mindfulness. It's a meditation on greater reality as it's manifested in what's around us. And that awareness, that meditation, that staying in the instant, as far as I know, wasn't mentioned in any of the Tibetan practices that Rinpoche talked about. And I was wondering, because that seems to be the easiest thing you can do. Because that seems to be something that either a layperson or a monk can do equally well,

[04:54]

and do it as part of their daily life. So is this part, can this be used to help obtain some of the understandings and states that have been described in the Tibetan practice? I'm guessing in the Tibetan tradition, it gets easier. What we have in the Tibetan teaching, chapters four and five in Shantideva, which are about mindfulness and alertness, that is, attention to the immediate situation, in order to maintain shila in particular, ethical conduct, does not seem to me as likely that that practice, that foundational practice in shila, contradicts what Katyagiri Roshi was talking about, about being in the moment. Without vigilance and alertness, smrti and samprajanya,

[06:06]

we cannot implement our practice, we cannot put our ethical practice, or any other practice into, or love and compassion, or wisdom, or detachment, or whatever. None of them can be put into practice without constant vigilance and alertness. Why is that? Because in regard to any teaching, whether wisdom, or compassion, or renunciation, or whatever, first one has to hear that teaching from one's teacher, or from a text, or whatever. One has to learn that teaching first. And so, once one has heard it, and learned it, and thought about it, then one has to regard one's practice of what one actually is doing and acting in the world, and one has to remember that teaching, and be mindful of that teaching,

[07:11]

in relation to the way one is actually behaving. And then, that is mindfulness. And then, alertness. Vigilance is to be aware of how one is executing that teaching, or not executing that teaching. And then there is a third, alertness, which looks ahead for circumstances which will endanger one's practice, which will cause one to lose one's train of practice. And those three, therefore, act like watchmen, and scanning, like guardsmen, of one's practice. Ultimately, when one reaches a certain high development of the power of one's mind, whether it be the mind of emptiness, or the mind of love, or whatever, where almost naturally such a mind flows out, or where things, in the case of emptiness, where naturally the world seems to dissolve into emptiness, and so forth, and one at that time no longer needs to preserve vigilance and alertness. And so, at that time, one could say that without using the sort of protection,

[08:25]

or the balancing mental mechanisms of mindfulness and alertness, one can just be in the moment, so to speak. At that time, without such a thing, that's possible, at that high stage. And therefore, I feel somehow the way of presenting it as being in the moment, the active principle of the moment, or something, is a way of expressing very high stage of realization. And the way of expressing with mindfulness and alertness, and guarding oneself carefully, and bringing teaching to bear, and so forth, and being sort of more like this, is a way of getting going and getting up to that stage. And that's why, listening to Karagiri's teaching, as Tenzin Lama was translating it to me, I then said, if you remember, a few days ago,

[09:27]

that it seemed to me that the way of practice of Zen was very, very high kind of advanced practice. And, on the other hand, therefore, something that one encounters and says, that's a very high practice, just because it's a very high and advanced practice, doesn't mean it's something that we should just abandon as something we can't attain. We should seek the methods of reaching to be able to make that high practice. On the other hand, if one says, well, I only want that high practice, and without any kind of preliminary learning, without any development of mindfulness and alertness, without any development of detachment, and diminishing of desires, and development of embodied mind and spirit of enlightenment, of love to save all beings, to attain enlightenment, and so forth, and developing the energies and expanding the abilities to reach to that kind of high practice, if one says, I just want to do that high practice, and then just sort of somehow imitates the high practice,

[10:30]

and sits down, and gets in a good posture and falls asleep, I don't think that's really going to help with getting to the high practice. Therefore, the need for study and reflection and learning to be able to reach up to these very exalted realizations has been stressed by me, therefore. If you want to, therefore, meditate in the moment, and total immanence of all things interpenetrated one and throughout the other, and the vision of the Avatamsaka Sutra, the vision of the Buddha's enlightenment, then learn something, and learn how to get from where you are to where that is. Therefore, I think that Katagiri and I will find some modes of harmony here. Yeah, after all, Katagiri himself already asserted that he and I are non-dual.

[11:33]

We are one being. Close. Close. He just cooked it for us, presented it there, and if somehow we still have to go through the effort of chewing it, then that's not his fault. If you want to eat spaghetti, Italian food, American food, Tibetan temple food, Japanese sushi, Sashimi food, Greendog's vegetarian food, whatever you want to eat, just grab it and have a bite. Ma?

[12:41]

I want to go back to the precepts. Yesterday, when we were talking about the Vinaya, there was some category called close approaching lay person's vows, which sounded like it was somewhat different from the usual vows for laymen. It's different for lay people. So now you want to have the dish of the monk for a day, nun for a day variety? That's the dish of the monk for a day, nun for a day variety. That's a good one to eat. Soup is in the soup.

[13:42]

This is not the real course, the real main course. This is like the appetizer. So you want to have a little appetizer, a little hors d'oeuvre, monk for a day, good. The main course being monk or nun for hours. The real food is non-duality meditation. If you don't eat the nice appetizers beforehand, and you just noddle down to the main course right away, then you'll have indigestion. I'm just joking. What about this monk and nun for a day thing?

[14:55]

What about it? You want to recite the eight branches of the monk and nun for a day? I'm trying to understand this branch of the Vinaya historically in terms of what's possible for us here, where we've got this fuzziness about laymen who look like monks and nuns in some ways but not in others, and the idea of taking certain vows for short periods of time, for a day or a week or whatever, seems like something that might be a possible path for us to explore here. So I'm more trying to understand what the tradition has been from that point of view. So, it's actually not a question, it's a comment.

[15:58]

Well, no, I'm just trying. That's why I heard what I thought was some description of another category of the rules for conduct. I wanted to hear more about that. What's the detail of it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[17:02]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. No. [...]

[18:13]

No. [...] The only story that Rinpoche thinks of is the story in ancient India where there was a one-to-one kingdom, which we can't think of what was the name of the king, the Buddhist king. And this king was really hot on monk-for-a-day routine. And he did it all the time himself, whenever he could. And he recommended it widely in his kingdom. He had like a major institution where people could come to find a monk, a bhikshu monk, and then they would obtain monk-for-a-day vow until the next following morning and practice that day in some sort of more monastic-like center type of way. And then they go back to their life, their lay life, and they do as much of whatever and whenever they could. And he was very big on it. This king promoted it all the time,

[19:20]

he was very into it. So the story is that then there was these five ogres, cannibal ogres, who lived in the forest in this country. And they went around gobbling down people and attacking wanderers, and they were very fierce, like big as a house. Real trolls, real ones, as they have in ancient stories. Rakshasas, they were called. And these rakshasas were wandering and they saw this sort of hero who was kind of a warrior sort of person, but who was living as a woodcutter in the woods. And the rakshasas thought, oh, here we'll have a good meal, let's first paralyze him with fried, and then we'll just take him and cook him up and eat him for dinner. So then the rakshasas all jumped down to the clearing where the cabin of this woodcutter hero and they were there, aaaah, fierce being like three, five black clouds like as big as a house, like growling and growling at this man. And he said, oh yeah, hello, didn't even move a muscle. So they said, what is this? We are the most terrible ogres

[20:21]

and rakshasas and yakshasas in all the land, and when five of us jump on this guy from all directions, and he's not scared of us, what's the matter with him? What's the matter with us? So then they said, before eating him, they asked him, they said, how come you're not scared of us? We are cannibals, we're going to eat you. How come you're not scared of us? Oh, I'm not scared of anybody. Well, why aren't you scared of anybody? He said, well, because I've just been down to a monk for a day. He said, it's a king, our king, don't you know that? In this country, our king, he teaches monks for a day and he urges all the citizens to do monks for a day as much as they can in between their work. And then there's also monks and nuns and they ordain a monk and nun for a day and we do that and therefore we're not afraid of anybody. Oh, then why is that? Why not? Why aren't you afraid of anybody? So then he said, well, I can't really tell you. I don't know. I go do monks for a day and I'm not afraid of anybody. But if you want to know why, maybe our king can tell you

[21:25]

since he's the one who's so gung-ho about it and he's recommending it rather. Like the ministry of monks and nuns for a day. He's just that one. So the ogres went down, you know, sluffling and snuffling down into the city and they went out and they ogred their way up to the house and they apparently went up to the king. But remember, she's not sure exactly what the king told them but whatever it was, it impressed them tremendously. So then they thought to it, they even made it possible to practice what they call ogre for a day. Ogre monk nun for a day. So they didn't eat anybody for a day. This also helps the countryside too. Mainly the king simply explains to them the eight branches that you observe. You know, the trees that you observe. They're not killing the four roots and the other precepts including subtlety and so forth. Then monks and nuns, when they practice, for that turn it well. Could you go through those eight forms? Excuse me? Could you go through those eight forms? No, no.

[22:26]

No. [...] In the same story, it also says that in a later generation this practice of the eight branch monk and nun for a day practice was lost. The teaching of it was lost and nobody knew it, nobody practiced it and the king in a later generation was having a lot of trouble,

[23:55]

the kingdom was in great disturbance, everybody was very unhappy, everybody was very confused, a lot of misfortunes and calamities and internal strife and struggle were taking place and then that king heard somehow about the ancient practice that the ancients had followed of the practicing of the monk and nun, widespread practice of monk and nun for a day and so he was put out on notice offering a great reward for anybody who knew anything about the practice because he didn't have the text and he had no one to know about it. So then finally an old lady came from some village and she said that she thought, she brought an old box and in the box she had like, she said, well I'm your majesty you know what I don't really know but I don't even read well but when I was a little girl my grandparents and they used to practice this monk and nun for a day, they used to use a text on the basis of which they would practice and I'm sure, I think that text is here among these texts if you have some scholar look at them. I think you'll find them and they did find the text and then they began to practice monk and nun for a day and the people did it widely

[24:56]

and the whole fate of the country reversed and people started cheering up and the calamities started ceasing and many benefits took place all around the whole country because this is also told in the benefits of the monk and nun for the day traditional recitation. First you have the four roots which are not killing, not stealing, not committing sexual misconduct and Brahmacharya that is celibacy and instead of just not sexual misconduct but celibacy and not lying particularly lying about one's spiritual state usual four roots as they are called and there are four branches not to eat after 12 o'clock to the next morning no alcohol intoxicants

[25:58]

no sitting upon any elegant or expensive couches no singing, dancing, make-up, ornaments, TV plays, bars no kind of entertainment or no sort of like adornments ornaments and general fooling around that's seven [...] for the male that one is for the female this no fooling around precept dividing it into no entertainment and no dressing up or make-up this makes two and that makes the eight

[27:07]

no and the male puts those two in one no ornament and no entertainment puts into one precept and divides the earlier precept about high and elegant couches into two for the male the prohibition is no really expensive and elegant couches and no really high couches so the male tends to lounge around in big chairs and thrones and feel they're very important so the male has two special things against doing that sitting up like a big thing and the female has two she only has one on that kind and then she has two on the entertainment no entertainment, no adornment there's a little difference in the male and female a monk or nun for a day and one takes it in the early morning of a day but as far as how to take that precept

[28:31]

first one has to take it from a from one's lama or guru it could be an apasika from an apasika it would not have to be ordained as a bhikshu or bhikshuni it could be an apasika or apasi apasika or apasika it could be either a lay woman or lay man or a monk or nun but it doesn't have to be monk or nun and the first time one does it one takes the precept from them and in subsequent days in some other time when one wishes to practice those precepts for a day one can do it in front of one's shrine not having to have a real monk or nun or lay man or lay woman one can ordain lay women or lay men present when you first take it you can take it you don't have to take it only for one day you can take it for several, two, three, four days or a week or two, five days or whatever but when you take it from the monk or nun they come and take it

[29:44]

from the monk or from the nun or the elder the elder the older people in Tibet they take as a regular practice they at a certain stage they decide they can do that They take, in one sitting, in one ordination kind of, they take the vow of observing this vow every 1st, 8th, 15th, 25th of every month, every lunar month. So that they sort of set up automatically, those like Sabbath days almost, that they're going to do it like once a week. And they just take that at once and then they just observe it every time. They don't have to retake it each day that they do it. There seems to be a great benefit from this, for those people who experience great benefit from doing it, without yet having to go to the extent of becoming a monk or a nun, for Pumil people.

[30:50]

The difference between the way the 8 principles are arranged for male and female is probably not necessary to explain much. But basically they're designed on the fact that the male tends to be tempted by the glory of sitting on high chairs and thrones or big beds or something, acting like a pasha. The female tends to be more tempted by adornments and ornaments and jewelry and things. At least in the case of those ancient cultures, and if not today. And so that's the reason for it. David? Yeah. Kagiri Roshi. When he says non-dual meditation, do you think that's the same as zazen? Are you asking me? I think so. He said yes. Did you answer that? Yes. You said yes? Oh. Okay. The other thing I wanted to ask you was, like Rinpoche was saying, that he has sort of a systematic approach,

[32:28]

like starting with giving sort of beginning traditional instructions, how to adjust your attitude, blah blah blah, etc. And he says you sort of start at the top, or zen starts at the top. And I know it's true, zen centers are like that. I mean, somebody can come to a zen center and never receive any instruction of any kind, almost, on beginning buddhism unless they seek it out, which seems fine to me. But how do you see that as far as practice and practice goes? I don't know. Maybe you should ask. No, no, but I'm asking you, do you think... I just said he accused you of accusing the... Yeah. I mean, do you think there ought to be a more systematic approach in a zen center?

[33:35]

Do you like the way it is? I don't mean to use more, your practice should be systematic, or your practice should be just sitting. I don't think so. You have to run the path. I mean, there are two ways. You have to sit always based on the shikantada, which means non-dualistic. On the other hand, you have to learn. You have to learn human life under the guidance of a teacher. This is really directly from the teacher. You have to learn what word is extending from that non-dualistic world. What kind of word is coming up reflected in the middle of non-dualistic? That is what you have to learn. Then if you explain each one of the words, that is Tibetan Buddhism emphasized temporarily, put the name on it.

[34:45]

That's it. Do you understand what I mean? I think so. I mean, it is not a theoretical, philosophical understanding. So that's why I mentioned, you have to learn Tibetan Buddhism in terms of criteria of bringing peace and harmony to your body and mind. Otherwise, the teaching becomes philosophical, psychological. Otherwise, if you accept that, your life will become very dualistic. So you never get peaceful. That's what I mean. That's why through the teacher, you have to learn what word is coming up from that non-dualistic world. Actually, through his life. And then after that, if you read the scripture, and then that life, each life coming up from the teacher really fits into each teaching.

[35:50]

Then you can teach it. You can learn it. Okay? Is that alright? I don't say which of two should come first. I cannot tell you. Can I say one thing just on this point? Rinpoche said he wanted to say that he completely agrees with that. And he remembers... And he agrees that he reminds him of what Atisha said when he first came to Tibet, when his teachers, Drong Dampa and others, his students, Drong Dampa, asked him, which is more important, learning and memorizing and understanding all the sutras and all the shastras, or the precept of the lama, that is to say the teacher's individual precept. And Dorje said, the precept of the lama is more important.

[36:54]

Even if you know all the sutras and all the shastras totally well, and read them all, know them by heart, understand their meanings, if you do not apply them in your life according to the precept of the lama, when the time of practice comes, you and all that dharma that you know will go separate ways. Will go their separate ways. He said this thing. So the way I transmitted what Dorje just said was that you should study, yes, from the beginning, and you should study from the beginning, applying that study in terms of the instruction from the lama, that is from Dorje, from the teacher, so that that study always is in the grounding of non-duality coming from the life of the teacher. This seems to me exactly the same. Whatever you learn, anything, I feel you should make your practice of it principle. I don't at all mean, because when I talk about systematic or learning something, this and that,

[38:07]

that it means that it's something you should run through in a book and then leave it in the book. Therefore, I completely agree that the non-duality of yourself and the dharma, and your learning and reflection should always be the way in which you go. In emphasis, I would emphasize the learning earlier, probably, but that they be non-dual, basically, I would agree. But the emphasis would be a little more on the learning and the reflection. For example, if we talk about what we mean by hearing and reflecting, learning and reflecting, or hearing and reflecting,

[39:19]

this relates to what we talk about of three kinds of wisdom. We talk about the wisdom born of learning or hearing, and the wisdom born of reflection. When you have the learning born wisdom, then you reflect upon that understanding, that wisdom that you develop from your learning, and then you get reflection born wisdom. And then, when you have reflected deeply upon the wisdom you have gained from your learning, you then develop wisdom born of reflection. And then, when you gain the wisdom, the understanding and wisdom born of reflection,

[40:37]

and you meditate upon that, you can then more powerfully and solidly gain meditation born wisdom. No, no. And so, this is the reason why, although you should keep non-duality always alive, especially in relationship to the precept of the Lama or the Roshi, even in your learning, why you also should perhaps synthesize learning at first, because without some learning born wisdom and reflection born wisdom, it would be difficult to, it would be impractical to try to right away attain meditation born wisdom. This would be helpful if you keep this in mind.

[41:40]

I'd like to ask about the spreading of Buddha, or let's say the influence of the religion. You mentioned before that Buddha is so excellent a being that he is just walking across the street, things would change. You know, people would transform themselves. And then there was the discussion about the organic nature of the monastery, where he would lay people, seeing the monks, the advanced beings, would make them feel good, and they liked being around them, things got better because they were there, and they supported this, which is good, I think it's important. Monastery of Florida. And here we are in America now, a Judeo-Christian country and culture, and as David mentioned before, about the availability of the teaching, how available is the teaching?

[42:48]

You know, should someone have to go, leap certain barriers, show a certain degree of motivation before it becomes available, and in what way would it then become available? And I guess another image for me is, in the Chinese monasteries, the individual ones, you get in sitting outside Tangario for a long period of time to demonstrate the motivation to get in. And then the question of evangelical approaches, you know, this kind of a problem, how do you deal with that? And what the teachers who are present have to say about, how do you approach our culture regarding this teaching, and what are the problems you have? Pitfalls. Why doesn't somebody else have to answer what I should say? Sanjay. Brother Gary, do you have to answer the question?

[43:49]

How do we... Do you have the question in mind? Yeah, I think that question is connected with what David asked. So, let me say it like this. I think the systematical teaching there, okay, the systematical teaching, you cannot ignore learning the systematical teaching. But, the question is, I mention always, what kind of attitude you take to this systematical teaching. For instance, here is a pond. In the pond of dualism, there is a systematical teaching there. On the other hand, in the pond of the complete universe, okay, in the systematical, there is a reflection of systematical teaching there. But, do you understand that

[44:52]

these both of them are a little different? Atmosphere is the same, okay? Reflection of the systematical teaching, here is a systematical teaching there. But, this is a little different because this systematical teaching in the pond, reflected in the pond of non-dualism, the quality is different. For instance, if you jump into the ocean, how can you swim? Apparently, everyone swims. So, dealing with the systematical teaching in terms of non-dualism doesn't mean you should ignore. Okay? You should ignore systematical teaching. But, how can you learn systematical teaching? Okay? That is the point, quite different point. Yeah. Let me just hear you.

[45:52]

One part of the question that I'm kind of focusing on is the availability of the teaching. You know, how far, how much energy is used to move out of the monastery, out of the church, into the community? How do you do it? Yes. Is there a problem? It is, two things. Problem. It is a problem. But, basically, it is nurturing, always. So, you have to learn the systematical teaching. But, there are two situations you can see. That is a little bit systematical, so philosophical. You don't understand it or you understand it. always there is a dualistic sense coming up on that. And, basically, it's nurturing. So, you have to learn whatever you feel, philosophical or psychological, you should learn it. And then, I think you should take time

[46:53]

in order to digest that teaching. That is a life, practicing. Through the teacher, you have to learn how that teaching arrives in a teacher's life. Do you understand? That's my experience anyway. That's why constantly I have to learn through their teaching. What about all the people who never heard of this problem? What about all the people in the world who in Kansas who never heard about this teaching? Yes, that's... What about those people? What do we do? What attitude does one take towards the rest of the world behind the mountain? You know, the one that's never heard of. That there is a method for anything. Basically, I think it's not necessary to worry so much. Because, basically, you and other people who have never heard Buddha's teaching

[47:54]

are saying, what's the difference between, you know? More or less, we are making every possible effort to exist in this world and helping others anyway. Don't you think so? So, basically, it doesn't matter. But when each person manifests themselves in a different circumstance, then different worlds coming up. You understand? At that time, we have to help. We have to help. We have to guide. We have to take their hands. Anyway, we have to give a hand. Let's go this way. That is a teaching. Learning something, real things, from a person, living person. This is a teacher and people's, kind of, a person's practice. Is that okay? I think that the business

[48:55]

of the spreading of the Buddha's teaching or its not spreading, it depends upon oneself. It's good, if you do it yourself, you can still heal. The teaching of the Buddha The teaching of the teachings of other people, our teaching is not spread. The teaching of other people is spreading. I think that, for example, to take an example of you, you have here this very famous Zen center here in America, which is living here, And therefore, I think the spread of Buddhism has to do very much, as far as it should concern you, has to do very much with how you yourself practice here. If you are the kind of people who, the way you live, the way you are, the way you behave, the way you walk, talk, and so forth, if that is a way in which all the people around feel that they can rejoice in, then that's what it mainly depends upon. Your activity within such a place, that's what mainly is the root of the spread of the Dharma.

[49:56]

If you really meditate, if you really learn, if you really reflect, and if you really put into transformation in your life what you are learning and reflecting and meditating, then those people around, outside, here and there, on the fringe, when they look and they see how you are, they will think, oh, this is really how to live. These people really are doing something different. They will rejoice. And what means spread of the teaching is when people rejoice in that way, when they begin to feel that their aims may be fulfilled through those methods and through that teaching, then that's how it happens. People then come to ask some questions. Then you can teach some Dharma. If it's not like that, on that kind of a basis, and if you have a miserable time around the center

[51:11]

and then run all over and talk about all the Dharma all over the place, and with no place to exemplify that, then it won't really have any effect at all. This is the way the Buddha Dharma, the Buddha teaching has always spread. It has always embedded itself in the life of the people. Therefore, it has always been the case with those who were devoted to the Buddha teaching that they always realized that the most powerful energy of spreading that Dharma in any society, in any time of the Buddha's history, was mobilized into their own practice,

[52:13]

their own transformation of their own mind, their own learning, their own reflection and their own realization. And therefore they engaged in those quests themselves, motivated by the energy of wishing to see the teaching spread. So our own practice is the principal thing that is the Dharma to be spread. Second though, of course, one should pay some attention, having developed a certain practice, about the method of showing or teaching that to others. And therefore the prerequisite of both one's own practice and one's having achieved something and being able to demonstrate that to others, the prerequisite of both of those is the threefold learning, reflection and meditation.

[53:17]

If you have no powerful learning and reflection, you won't have powerful meditation. If you have some meditation anyway without little learning and with little learning and little reflection, even though you may have some meditation, you will be unable to explain the fruit of that meditation or how to do it to anybody else. And therefore as far as the will to the wish, the ambition to spread the Buddha Dharma, it first must depend upon our own practice and our own practice must depend upon our own learning and reflection. And then there should be attention to learning and reflection of how to share our practice with others as well. This is the main thing. If in this country where everybody is running around helter-skelter in a completely chaotic and disorganized and confused manner,

[54:34]

if there's one person who can be calm and still and peaceful in the middle of all that, other people will inevitably begin to like them. They will think, oh yeah, that's nice, I like that, that person, I feel good around that person. Oh, they have something, they're doing nice things. Oh, how did they do that? What did they do? They will start to ask them questions. Therefore the main thing is for those who consider themselves Dharmikas, the Dharma people, to make themselves practice. No. No. No. For example, if we are to be a Dharma person, a priest or a monk or a practitioner,

[55:37]

then if an ordinary lay person wants ten dollars, if we're talking in terms of money, if in some sort of kind of situation they want ten dollars, we should be the kind of persons who are quite content with five. If we as religious persons are just as hungry for money as the other kinds of persons, if we have just as many desires as the other kinds of persons, then there is no Dharma to spread. So even using an example of material things in that way, we should always maintain, our practice should always maintain a certain kind of difference like that. It doesn't mean that because we are Dharmikas or we are practicing Dharma that we don't need any money. Of course we need material things, money, use it to benefit and so forth, we need. It's just that we're not so tremendously hungry, it's just that we don't get all completely freaked out

[56:44]

and if it doesn't happen according to what we want, if we don't get what we want, we don't get completely ruined and depressed about it. So I just thought of something good. You like to recite the Heart Sutra, right? In the five aggregated processes, there's many mental functions within the aggregated mental functions. There are many mental functions contained within the five aggregates of body and mind, and of all those many different kinds of mental functions, two of the types of mental functions, namely sensation of pleasure and pain, and so on, and recognition of concepts or recognition of objects, specific mental functions have been singled out and made into separate aggregated mental functions. Rather than being included in the large aggregated process known as the aggregated process of mental functions.

[57:49]

These two have been singled out as separate aggregated functions. The reason why they have been singled out as separate processes, in the first chapter of the Abhidharmakosha, which I understand our Abbot has been studying a lot in the past, the reason for bringing out sensation as a major aggregated process, is because laypersons' major source of strife and struggle and problems, and their main focus in life, is sensations. They seek pleasure and they seek to avoid pain. What I observed, so that's why he brought out sensations of pleasure and pain as a major aggregated process. The big I-I-I process circulating in the lay world has a lot to do with seeking sensations of pleasure.

[58:55]

Now, the second aggregate, the aggregate of conceptual recognitions, or conceptual consciousness, samjna, as it's called, or sometimes we call it the aggregated recognition, or even perception, the reason this is singled out as separate aggregated processes is because monastics, male and female monastics, don't fight much over sensations of pleasure and pain, but their whole conflict and much of their trouble comes over their different notions and recognitions and concepts. They get so much invested in their ideas that they fight over those. Therefore, the monks are always fighting over their different ideas, since they have no struggle much over their sensations. Laughter Barbara?

[60:05]

I was wondering if Kadagiri and Kobin could talk a little bit about the Bikini energy that was discussed earlier, which is interesting in that it seems to be a kind of sexual energy that everybody is craving, but it's an energy that doesn't have as much negativity associated with it. I was wondering if there's any experience of this energy being encountered in the Zen path, and what is normally recommended to do if this energy does come up and it is encountered. Is it like the Buddha, where if you encounter it on the path, kill it, or how do you deal with it? Well, I think already the Tarot talk mentions in detail. So I want to say a little bit about that. Basically, I think the energy of desire is very nurturing human life.

[61:12]

It is a kind of source of human energy to let you live, to make your life alive. It is a kind of flaming of fire. Wherever you may go, your life is always burning. Burning means energy, source of energy of your life. So that is a desire. For instance, seeking for the truth, religions, what kind of desires do you need? This is a desire, broadly speaking. Without desire, you cannot do it. So I think basically you need a kind of desire, but that is really a source of human energy. Wherever you may go, it supports your life. But when it appears in different circumstances, and when it appears and is used by different persons, different ideas,

[62:21]

then that fire, that energy is sometimes misused, etc. That's why we have to appreciate the gratitude for that energy, and how do we direct that energy toward what? Your desire, your dualistic sense, or what? Your first goal is what? What lasts during only your life, or for 10 years, or 20 years, what? If you see human life for a long run, life after life, I think this is so-called spiritual life, seeking for the spiritual life.

[63:26]

So very naturally, you have to direct your energy toward that one. Use it in that way. So that energy can be used in a proper way. Even though you can see, the more you try to direct your energy toward that, the more clearly you can see a different world, what you want. By your individual desires. So different directions you can see. But as best as you can, you try to keep your board toward the right goal. That is teaching, this is listening to the Buddha, Dharma, and this is studying Buddha's teachings anyway. And sometimes, nevertheless, it's difficult, so you should have a concrete aspect of guidance under the teacher.

[64:26]

And sometimes you have to practice together like this. You cannot direct your board by yourself always toward the right direction, so you need lots of help. That's what I want to tell you. Is that alright? Yes, indeed. What I was asking about specifically was the healing energy, the subtle tantric spiritual energy that is encountered in certain types of tantric practices, which is, Rinpoche has said, is very beneficial to the monastery, because people become very happy when this energy awakes, and yet it's a bliss that's kind of like sexual bliss, but without all of the negative connotations,

[65:31]

the violence and howling at the moon, and various things that people do when they get to be romantically in love. And what I was wondering is whether this very subtle spiritual, the healing energy ever happens or arises within people when they're using, finding the Zen path of living in the moment. I don't know. Apparently it's not too common. I don't live a monastic life now. In similar condition I have now, very alone in the bigger plan.

[66:34]

I notice both feminine nature of myself and masculine nature of myself, very well balanced state. I'm in lucidity and I'm very happy. We may... What do you want to hear? I think more like Coyote.

[67:39]

I listened to Coyote. Coyote. A hundred of them... What did they say? Kichibai. Go back. Oh! Look at it! And now I feel maybe that's me. Yes. It's just the thing I am. Because people I love from very distant. Did you want to hear about that? Never seen? No? Let's take a ten minute break. Can I say one thing? I want to say one thing. You may say it. It's a very tiny thing. And that is that I just wanted to dispel the notion that there's some kind of weird thing like female energy creeping around, coming out of the tree trunks or the woodwork. It's a good time for selling there's some like female energy creeping on your head.

[68:41]

This is silly. Prajnaparamita Sutra which she recited before all Zen practice, the Heart Sutra, this is Prajnaparamita. Prajnaparamita from the beginning in India is a mother, is a woman. She is a goddess. She is worshipped as the mother of all Buddhas, she's called and so forth. Wisdom itself is female energy according to Mariana symbolism from the very beginning whether we talk of Tantra or we don't talk of Tantra. And therefore when one achieves wisdom then that is the dawning of the inspiration of female energy in one's being whether one says one's a Tantra or not a Tantra and so forth. According to the Tantras in fact males are, the basic essence of maleness is stupidity but although kindness and a lot of energy and the essence of femaleness is intelligence and wisdom. And so female, female, right, female energy, female energy therefore is something that is everywhere, it's in every life either Buddhas or not Buddhas, Tantra or not Tantra, Zen or not Zen and it's just there and it's just symbolisms are approached in different ways. So let's not please like think that you know like we're going to go around some corner

[69:44]

and open some boxes and see Tantra and then there's all kind of weird female energy that comes creeping out. It's really not at all that way. That is what I want. Thank you. Thank you. Take ten. You might be able to translate some of this as this goes. If you recognize this tune, you can join us on the chorus of this first tune. Okay, here we go. Don't know much about emptiness. I know I'm supposed to be identity-less. Don't know much about bodhichitta. But you keep talking about sweet Amrita. But I do know if I follow you, you got the courage to see me through.

[70:51]

What a wonderful world it will be. When all of the beings are free. Don't know much about the Eastern sages. Look at the pictures and turn the pages. Don't know much about beasts and rats. Or how to use them on the Tantric path. But I do know if I follow you, you got the courage to see me through. What a wonderful world this will be. When all of the beings are free. I'm claiming to be a bodhisattva. But I'd like to be. Maybe by being a bodhisattva baby. We could set all the beings free. Don't know much about emptiness. I know I'm supposed to be identity-less.

[71:55]

Don't know much about bodhichitta. But you keep talking about sweet Amrita. But I do know if I follow you, you got the courage to see me through. What a wonderful world this will be. When all of the beings are free. Let's do the chorus again. This is for our teachers. This is the teaching half. We have to follow you. But I do know if I follow you, you got the courage to see me through. What a wonderful world this will be. When all of the beings are free. Applause. Okay, okay. Now you guys can play in front. What's the next page here? Now let's see. How am I going to do this?

[72:55]

This is so teeny. Can I claim? Can you hold this above your head? Laughter. Okay, great. Now some of Lama Tara's lectures have been more... Are you the only one singing it? No, but you're coming on the chorus. Okay. We're just singing one line. You know that one? Laughter. Anyway, some of Lama Tara's lectures have had a greater impression, I think, on us than others. Some we really can relate to. And this one I thought really stuck in my mind how it might revolutionize rock and roll tunes in popular music. Which tend to be a lot about missing your loved one and how terrible it is when you don't have a girlfriend or how terrible it is when you do have a boyfriend or whatever. So I wrote about what's really going on here. Laughter. Now this chorus, again, I think you'll be able to learn and pick up on

[73:57]

And the kids are going to help you with the last line, which is the key mantra in the whole thing. Alright. My baby she was special and I knew she was mine. She was sweet as candy and fine as wine. Everything about her made me crazy in my head. When I remembered what the Lama said. Laughter. Control your mind, cool down. Don't let desire get under your skin. Although it's a little deeper than purity. Okay kids. Think ugly. Laughter.

[74:57]

Think ugly. Laughter. I loved to hold her close and make her feel alright. I never got tired of making love all night. I was kissing those lips and squeezing her tight. When I remembered what the Lama said. Control your mind, cool down. Don't let desire get under your skin. Although it's a little deeper than purity. Think ugly. Laughter. She had real pretty nose and eyes so deep.

[76:03]

And tender ears and mouth so sweet. Just seven holes full of impurity. When I remembered what the Lama said. Control your mind, cool down. Don't let desire get under your skin. Although it's a little deeper than purity. Think ugly. Laughter. Before my eyes my baby turned on me. Once she was the only thing that mattered to me. And now she is nothing but a shit machine. Laughter. When I remembered what the Lama said. Control your mind, cool down.

[77:14]

Don't let desire get under your skin. Although it's a little deeper than purity. Think ugly. Laughter. Now the last verse. Now the world is full of lovely things. Tempting sweet and luscious beings. But I'm a little wiser now than I was before. Because I remember what the Lama said. Control your mind, cool down. Don't let desire get under your skin. Although it's a little deeper than purity. Think ugly. Laughter. Applause. Applause.

[78:18]

Laughter. And we'll close with our closing chant. Actually it's usually our opening chant. We've been focusing on the heart sutra quite a bit this week. And we've at various times talked about the spreading of the Buddhist way into America. So I tried a few different possibilities. We never know where it will really turn up and who will influence us. We go out on the dharmic path and it might be rock and roll singers. So we have this sort of possibility. Ready? Bodhicitta avalokita. Deep and perfect understanding. Shed light on the five skandhas. And found them equally empty. After this penetration he overcame all pain.

[79:30]

After this penetration he overcame all pain. After this penetration he overcame all pain. Listen, Shariputra. Laughter. It actually might be the blues that we really get lost in the heart sutra. Listen, Shariputra. Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form ain't no different from emptiness. Emptiness ain't no different from form. The same is true with feeling. The same for perception. Mental formations and consciousness. Oh, hear Shariputra. All dharmas are marked with emptiness. They're neither produced nor destroyed.

[80:34]

Neither defiled nor immaculate. Neither increasing nor decreasing. Therefore in emptiness there is neither form nor feeling. Nor perception. Nor mental formations. Nor consciousness. But we look to the fifties for comfort. Where all the songs led us to the pure land. No eye, no ear or nose or tongue. No body, no mind, no bone. No song, no smell, no taste, no touch. No object of mind, no realms of elements. No eye, no ear or nose or tongue. No body, no mind, no bone.

[81:36]

No song, no smell, no taste, no touch. No object of mind, no realms of elements. From eyes to mind, consciousness. No origins and no extinction. After death, from ignorance to death. Death and decay, no suffering. Da, da, [...] da. But it's really, realization really takes place in country western tunes. Because there's no attainment, no compass, find no obstacles. Having no hospital, they all burnt off their hair

[82:40]

With perfect understanding, they liberated themselves Free from illusion, they realized their vanquished Our Buddha's in the past, present, and future Give thanks to understanding, and arrive at full enlightenment Our Buddha's in the past, present, and future Give thanks to understanding, and arrive at full enlightenment Would you like to sing that chorus? We often sing it as a chorus in service. Our Buddha's in the past, present, and future Give thanks to understanding, and arrive at full enlightenment Our Buddha's in the past, present, and future Give thanks to understanding, and arrive at full enlightenment Well, we aren't done yet.

[83:43]

There are many questions, unanswered questions in the Heart Sutra, so I turned the last part actually into questions. The famous tune. How can we know a perfect understanding? They say it is a very great song And how can we know the perfect understanding? They say it is the highest in equal terms How can we know this destroyer of all suffering? They say it is the incorruptible truth A song of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed Prajnaparamita be proclaimed A song of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed

[84:56]

Prajnaparamita be proclaimed We're only left with the final mantra. Gathe Gathe Pargate Gathe Gathe Pargate Gathe Gathe Pargate Asvam Gathe Aum Ishvara Don't compare Don't compare

[86:05]

It's the worst thing you could do Don't compare It stinks like super glue I guess it's better than to hate But not so bad to swear Don't compare Don't compare It's a real breakdown A built-in limiter A stupid domitor And so on Don't compare That's for idiots like us Don't compare He's not as sharp as us And if dorks like him do shit like that Well it's obviously nowhere Don't compare Don't compare It's a real breakdown A built-in limiter A stupid domitor And so on A stupid domitor

[87:08]

And so on Now this next one is more about what might bring someone to practice The sort of observation that might make them interested And it's done like traditional folk songs on death And it refers to two of them Poor Howard is Dead and Gone, you know that one? And the other one is Tell Old Bill When He Gets Home This Morning It's just the two folk songs about death it refers to Here we go Old Charlie is a cranky sort He's full of piss and poops Old Charlie gonna leave us short Today I heard the news

[88:12]

Now I appreciate him And I'm sorry for what I said Cause like poor Howard's dead and gone Charlie soon He's dead Old Charlie wore a funky hat He'd wear it inside of a room I wonder if they're gonna put that hat inside his tomb And now I think about him And I'm sorry for what I did Cause like poor Howard's dead and gone Charlie soon He's dead Whistling

[89:22]

Old Charlie lives alone By the closed down mills And Charlie's hopes will soon be blown Just like dear old Bill And I pray for his salvation And I'm sorry for what we dread But like poor Howard's dead and gone Charlie soon He's dead Thank you Well now it's time for credits What's a credit?

[90:29]

I'll tell ya And I'm Lou, so bear with me For photography, Jim Robinson, thank you For sound, David Chadwick, thank you For music, Stephanie and David, thank you For excellent questions, which I thought were sincere And reflected great attentiveness, thank you For this beautiful place, Gringo, thank you For all our teachers, thank you And for Bill and Yvonne, thank you And for... And for this great dharma and teaching

[91:38]

And for the many years that Rinpoche studied in order to bring us this teaching And for the many years that Kanagiri Roshi studied to bring us this teaching I'd like to say thank you to Shizuki Roshi, the founder of this institute And I'd like to say thank you to Richard Baker Roshi, who, with all his problems, did found this place and built a beautiful place, so I'd like to thank him And thank you to Rinpoche And I also want to say thank you, thank you very much for coming It's been wonderful to have you with us this week, thank you very much

[92:44]

And of course, also... Rinpoche, for being here, it's been a great joy for us And it was good having the two of us here, having our novels, and you're a brilliant duo in our writing field And Robert, for the translation and for your dharma Thank you Conflicts and devotions and... And also, I don't exactly know how it happened, but... I think we all feel a tremendous amount for this

[93:56]

I want to thank you both I don't know how much Yvonne did, but I have a feeling, I hope you know what's going on here I don't know exactly what's going on So, also I want to thank Nintendo, Nea, Wender, for kicking through with this wonderful meeting this week Thank you And I'd like to thank all of this room for building the guest house And also building the place where I've been the longest day Thank you very much Thank you, Gloria, for decorating the houses For decorating the houses Thank you

[95:22]

And I want to give you this robe that was given to me by a former head of training Thank you I'm purple Richard would like to say a few thank yous I don't have many things to say We've been talking a lot the last week or so

[96:50]

Please keep these in your mind, think about them Look to your practice, whatever it is, look to the practice of it And in regards to this monastery, we don't call something a monastery because it has nice buildings and nice land We say that a monastery is a place where people are putting their utmost effort, their life's effort, into learning, reflection, and meditation And therefore, this monastery does not depend on land or buildings, but depends on the Dharma practitioners in it And the Lord Buddha said that when the Sangha is harmonious with one another, they will all be happy

[98:06]

And therefore, it is essential that everyone should be cooperative and very helpful with the leader, and should be very harmonious and cooperative with one another And since this is a Dharma center, it is necessary that people maintain a certain discipline, definitely And there should also be a certain hierarchy, a little bit of a hierarchy in such a community Those who are the elder priests, who have more experience, should be given a certain status and respected and their opinions heard If that should be done well, all of those that should be put into practice well, then it will be a wonderful monastery

[99:19]

It will get many helpers And many people who wish to genuinely contribute their practice to it If people should fight with one another and should criticize one another and should struggle with one another, then this will be very harmful to their own practice And it will be harmful to those outside who look to the monastery for inspiration We should not, of course, pretend that anger and struggle and conflict will not arise in the monastery Even after having arisen, though, those who are the Dharma practitioners should be regretful of its arising, should look into the causes that made it arise, should seek to prevent its arising again

[100:26]

The worst is for people to keep down their anger and keep inside deep resentment and wait for the time to attack another and another time again later and hold inside such kind of resentment, this is the worst Please keep in your heart all that, especially what I am saying And especially to the precious abbot, and especially to the elder members of the community, and in general to all of you, I wish you all the very best of luck, and I will hold you in my prayers And since I wanted to say that since my coming here was through the activity of Tenzinla and Ivan, and if it has been of any help, I think that's excellent, very nice

[101:49]

I did not come here at all thinking to obtain any kind of profit, or any kind of money, or any kind of benefit And I want to say also to Katagiri Roshi and to Kopan Roshi that I am so pleased to have had this time to be with them, and to teach the Dharma with them, and this is definitely the effect of our having had this kind of good karmic evolutionary experience and interaction together in former lives, it is definitely the fruition of such ancient karma of ours And therefore this fruition has come to us in this life of what has happened in our former lives, and may the fruition of what we do, of any virtuous deeds that we do in all of our future lives, bear fruition from full to full, for all of us forever

[103:06]

Now we will all separate and go our separate ways, but still the memory can keep without deteriorating whatever beautiful thing we had here, we found here And we should always take refuge in the Three Jewels, and we should always invoke their presence and carry on our practice in the presence of the Three Jewels, without forgetting So therefore I want to thank you all very much

[103:51]

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