So in talking today about desire and attachment and greed, we are talking about that element which corresponds to the nature of our environment. In the Buddhist world, where we live is called the desire realm or the realm of sense desire as opposed to other realms. Our universe is called the universe of desire. So discussing desire, we are talking about that central quality of our environment. And therefore, amongst the five poisons or three poisons, which are the mental afflictions

[01:02]

in the Buddhist teachings, that of desire is extremely powerful, is a very powerful motor of the worldly life. And amongst the different desires, the desire which is known as the desire for the union of the two organs, or sexual desire, this desire is considered very powerful among all desires. And this kind of great desire or sexual desire equally exists both in male and female. This kind of ideas that do arise and people do come up with, that say males have more desire than females or that females have more desire than males, these are all completely incorrect. And therefore, the Buddha, the methods that the Buddha taught, which he considered of

[02:18]

central importance in helping us to become free of desire in general, namely those methods to help us transcend being driven by sexual desire, he taught them commonly for male and female. And therefore, whatever I say, you should apply equally to male as well as female. The Buddha taught many extensive methods of helping to free beings, helping to free themselves from desire, and particularly he taught very many to help beings free themselves from sexual desire. The major methods of freeing oneself principally from desire, he taught in terms of...

[03:30]

The major techniques of completely eliminating desire, which he taught, were taught in terms of what is known as the teachings of the tantras. In fact, contrary to what many people think about the tantras, the fact of the presence in the tantra of a central symbol being the Buddha represented as a male and a female in union, the famous Yab Yom images, these in fact are a sign or a symbol that the tantra's specialty is the method of terminating and transcending desire. This is... The reason how this is, this is said that desire is so thoroughly eliminated in the path of this vehicle that even in the union of male and female, there is no desire.

[04:41]

Now the methods of conquering desire taught in the tantrayana, this is not the occasion of teaching those methods at all. Similarly, there are special methods within the tantra of conquering anger as well. Similarly, the sign that within the tantra the fullest methods of really conquering desire is that in the context of tantra there are forms of Buddhahood which are incredibly wrathful, incredibly powerful, looking so-called the terrific deities, that we see this kind of icon, that these are in the tantra is similarly a sign that the tantras represent the final triumph over anger. Similarly there is the root problem of delusion, of the self-habit of ignorance.

[05:57]

Similarly, the ultimate method of destroying delusion also is in the tantra. A sign of that is that the terrific deity forms of the Buddha in the tantra are major, their robe that they wear is usually the freshly flayed hide of a slain elephant. That is a symbol that delusion has been destroyed in the Buddhahood method of the tantrayana. Now coming down from the realm of tantra and the realm of mayana in the Bodhisattva Pitaka, the Bodhisattva collection, as it is said, there are many methods of the destruction of delusion, the conquest of desire. Now in the tantrayana there is a way of conquering desire by using desire,

[07:17]

by what is known as transmuting desire into the path. In the tantra gallop aspect of the Mahayana. In the Vinaya, on the other hand, except for a complete abandonment of the attributes and elements of desire, there is no strategy of transmuting desire into the path. And therefore, for us who are beginners in some sense, for who are more in fact controlled by our desires than are in control of our desires, it is not good to try these high methods of transmuting desire into the path right away, but it's much better to begin at the beginning and learn first the methods of conquering and transcending desire as taught in the Vinaya.

[08:20]

Therefore, I mainly will teach in terms of this today. And the first thing to understand here is you must understand what is desire. In Buddhism, there are two words which are used in terms of desire, Döpa and Chakpa in Tibetan, which stands for Kama and Raga in Sanskrit originally, which are therefore there are two words for desire included there, Kama Raga is the original Sanskrit term. Kama means desire or greed or lust for what we like and what we want. And the second word Raga means that we are not just satisfied with the nature of what it is that

[09:34]

we want, but we want to somehow get a hold of it and attach it to ourselves and incorporate it somehow to some greater degree than it actually contains in its existence. And this is called which means kind of attachment. Therefore, this shows that in the very energy of desire attachment, to take it as full meaning Kama Raga, there is a kind of erroneous perception of the objects of desire and attachment operating. For example, if we become filled with desire attachment for our own body, for example, this means that we have a kind of desire and attachment for our body that is not only

[10:39]

attracted to our body and is clutching onto it in some way of considering it as something very important, but also that we are taking a hold of that body and trying to keep a hold of that body with a mental mode that is not satisfied with the actual reality of our body, but is investing or attributing to our body some status and preciousness that it does not in fact possess, that exceeds what it actually does possess. For example, if we come to know better the actual reality or the condition of the body, then this is the first remedy of desire attachment. Desire attachment will definitely become smaller. For example, sexual desire first arises based on the desire or the attraction or the misperception

[11:41]

of a form that is attractive. Visual stimulus usually creates it. Now, this desire attaches itself to four out of the five sensory qualities of material bodies, namely the form, color and shape that is, the smell, the taste, and the touch. The sound is not important in basic attachment at first. By not knowing the true nature of the objects of sight, smell, taste and touch, we become excessively attached to such an object.

[12:44]

For example, if we see a color with our eye, there is both shape and color in any object. And if we see something with shape and color which we are attracted to, we immediately feel that it's some really fantastic thing. We become really fascinated by it. Similarly, as far as touch goes, the kind of softness, let's say, of the human body, we are not just attracted to the actual degree and exact sort of texture of the body, but we attribute to it something much even more extraordinary than it actually has. So our desire attachment arises from imagining some much greater degree

[14:01]

of sensual satisfaction in the object than actually it possesses. Now, one who really knows the nature of things, in order to do so, for this person to reduce their attachment and desire, there is nothing more powerful than the meditation of non-dualism, the meditation of emptiness. If one has the perception of a body as non-dual with this perceiver, then the desire for that body becomes definitely less. If one meditates a great deal on non-dualism and emptiness, and yet that meditation does not

[15:14]

decrease one's attachment and desire, sexual attachment and desire, then one has not properly meditated on non-dualism and emptiness, not accurately done so. In Vinaya, it is taught that the best antidote for sexual desire and attachment is the meditation of non-duality, of emptiness, of selflessness. Now, if we find that we have meditated a great deal on emptiness, as best we knew, on a great deal on non-duality and selflessness, and yet we find that our desire and attachment have not decreased significantly, then we better retreat from the highest way of meditating against desire, to overcome desire and attachment, to the more beginning and more

[16:17]

preliminary methods of developing the antidote to desire and attachment. Before he goes on to that, could you give us some idea of what this desire and this meditation on non-duality is? He says he doesn't want to do that, because if I say that, then we won't really get enough out of it. He wants to say something that he feels we will get really something out of, for the moment. Don't you think that if we make big trouble and go a long distance and spend a lot of money and spend a lot of time talking together, that it's better if we talk together about something that is useful to us? What I am teaching you now is not just something that I read in a book, and that you could just

[17:19]

read much cheaper and much easier quietly by yourself in a book. It's something that I have myself thought about, and that I am then telling you as a personally, directly, what I feel with my own intuition is what you really need. So I think, therefore, it will help you, it will give you something to think about. I don't even understand non-duality myself. I can't think too much about it. Maybe it's something intoxicating. Maybe it's something we can really think about, but to me it makes me feel intoxicated. But if I can talk about what I can talk about, then I can talk about it really well. I'm really not intoxicated about what I'm talking about.

[18:23]

I don't have an idea to give you an idea. Would you rather have me talk soberly or talk intoxicatedly? Well, if he's talking about desire, you know, it's like if he was talking about illness, and he was a doctor, and he was saying, well, there's this great medicine that will cure your illness, and then he went on to another subject, and the sick person would say, wait, exactly what is that medicine, how do I mix it, and how do I take it? You really said something good there. Because what is the case in the case of doctors? Doctors give medicine looking exactly at the

[19:38]

nature and the need of a patient. But if instead the doctor is someone who, instead of seeing the condition actual of the patient, simply is in love with his great medicines, and therefore takes the one great medicine that he really likes, and stuffs it down the throat of every patient, there's a danger he will kill his patient. So therefore, doctors have different medicines precisely which they feel are most useful in studying the condition of the patient to give it exactly oriented to cure the patient. If the doctor was to come in with this big medicine like it was some kind of a big club, or swatter, and swat all the patients with the same medicine, it wouldn't really necessarily be helping them. The Buddha himself used this precise example.

[20:39]

The Buddha himself in his sutras used the example of the doctor to indicate why it is that the Buddha's teaching is not in fact internally contradictory and inconsistent. Because the Buddha sometimes says there is such a thing. Sometimes the Buddha says there is a self. Sometimes the Buddha says there is no self. Sometimes the Buddha says there is this. Sometimes he says there is not that. And this is then taken as internally contradictory unless one understands that the Buddha is not a dogmatic philosopher, but the Buddha is a healer. The Buddha is a doctor. And therefore, just like when someone has a fever, one gives some cooling kind of medicine. But when one has a cold type of illness, one gives a warming type of medicine. And one does not give a warming medicine to someone with a fever and vice versa. And therefore, although they seem to be opposite, the warming medicine, the cooling medicine, when they are applied accurately to the need of the patient, they in fact are not opposite, but all executing the Buddha's own very aim of healing the patient. So thank you for using that example. It's so useful and helpful. I think it's important to keep in mind here that we're talking to a person that has 20

[22:20]

to 30 years of formal debating experience at Rinpoche. We're not likely to win. No, no, this is not debate. This is not what we did for 20, 30 years as debate. Not at all. If I started debating with you the way we used to debate, then it would be very confusing. There's a certain kind of rule about our debate, a certain formal rule. The challenger and the respondent have a certain kind of special system or discipline within which they debate. But all it is, I am just on the basis of my experience, I am teaching you what I have

[23:28]

thought about because I think really it will be helpful to you. So now coming back to the question of sexual desire, it is by first what we see with the eye that sexual desire arises usually. If we know the nature of form well, then the nature of the body well, then we will definitely lessen our addiction to desire. So what we have to do, for example, in sexual desire attraction to the male or the female body,

[24:28]

we have to realize that that body that seems to us to be so tremendously shapely, so wonderfully soft, so tremendously delicious and so wonderfully wonderful, is not actually quite like that. Now, the saviour and protector, Nargajuna, he wrote a famous work called the Saharanaika, or the letter to a friend, to his friend the King Udayi of the Shatavahana clan. King Udayi of the Shatavahana dynasty in southern India. This was a king of many wives and many children and the population of his nation was many millions. And therefore this epistle that Nargajuna wrote to him was about how to protect his country,

[25:39]

what was the method of properly protecting his country. Actually, the king asked him, how do I run this country? And in answer he wrote this letter known as the letter to a friend. Now, in that he said to the king, in giving the king some of the methods of controlling his royal desire, considering that to be important in his ability to run his country, and the first thing he said, in order to control the sexual desire between male and female, one of the best methods is not to have them see each other. And if they are to mingle and to see each other, then it's very important that they meditate each other

[26:45]

and visualize each other as being relatives, like brother and sister, or mother and son, or father and daughter, or sister and sister and so forth, in some sort of a relationship which there would normally be constrained in feeling sexual desire towards. Then, if it is not possible to use that, if that sort of thing will not control the arising of desire, then the most important meditation to meditate upon is upon the nature of the body, and this is called the meditation of unloveliness, or the meditation of impurity. Now, in the friendly letter, it is said that our body has seven holes.

[27:46]

One has to reflect upon what it is that goes in and out of the seven holes of the body. Now, if when we reflect carefully about what goes in and out of the seven holes of the body, if it is not something pure and wonderful and beautiful, then we'd better suspect that there's something not quite so wonderful about the body. So Naradjuna thus wrote to his royal patron, Shantideva also said, If you feel some skin is very, very irresistibly attractive, then you have to surgically, mentally think about if you were to remove the skin, what would be inside. Would that be so very attractive? If you took the flesh out from under the skin and took a look at it, would it be very attractive?

[28:52]

Now, think about what is presently even in our stomach right now. What is it like, the stuff in our stomach this moment? So he and he, Shantideva, gave a nice name to the body. He said, what is our body? Our body is an impurity machine. Therefore, it seems to be, in fact, Shantideva gave it a name, if you'll please excuse me. He said that one of the main, our body, one main thing to look at is our body is a shit machine. And if therefore we gain the ability, in amongst seeing the body in all kinds of other ways,

[29:59]

of seeing it as a shit machine, it is very likely that we will become somewhat less attached to it. Now, beyond this meditation of ugliness, one has to think, well, what is it, what is the benefit that will be developed by sexual activity? It is, it is acknowledged that the sexual bliss is the greatest of the desire realm's blisses. That bliss, actually, is not itself the desire for that bliss. This happiness or bliss is a bliss of the mental consciousness,

[31:07]

which the mental consciousness is drawn into by its association with the physical consciousness. Therefore, that sexual desire in males and females arises by the mind's memory of sexual bliss, and it's knowing that it can achieve that, reach that bliss through the mental, physical sense, and therefore it is attracted to the partner with a view to achieving that bliss. Its desire, ultimately, therefore, is for that bliss. And therefore, in order to achieve that bliss, it is that, it is as a method of achieving, or the technique of achieving that bliss, that the being, the person, wants to unite with the partner of the opposite sex, or the sexual partner. And the desires for color, and shape, and scent, and smell, and so forth,

[32:20]

are all simply preliminary to that larger and overriding desire. If one can block that desire right from the outset, through reason, through those sense inputs, then the sexual desire will not arise. If one cannot prevent those initial temptations or attractions through the sense things, then the desire for sexual union will arise because of its being the desire for the sexual bliss. And therefore, many of the regimes of the discipline of monastic discipline,

[33:22]

being the discipline those who wish to become free of addiction to the desire attachment for sexual bliss, or sexual desire, have to do with preventing the arisal of that desire by preventing the stimuli of visual, of verbal, and other kinds of stimuli. Right from the outset, and therefore, a regime of life that prevents such stimuli. Second, one has to come to the question of sexual bliss, and come to understand that is it a beneficial happiness long run, or in the long run, does it cause more suffering than happiness? Sexual union is something that is tiring and drains the energy of both partners immediately,

[34:51]

it is considered. Although there is a sensation part of the problem of the addiction with sexual union is that there is a sensation to the partners that their energy is increasing, that their strength is heightening. This is because their energy of their enthusiasm for the bliss of sexuality is heightening and making them feel sort of activated. But in fact, the result of sexual activity is a loss of strength, a loss of health,

[35:54]

and eventually sicknesses and so forth. Those who engage in intensive sexual activity will gain various kinds of sicknesses and physical disturbances. There is a tradition that doves have to make it every day or they can't stand it. Pigeons or doves, I think doves. Therefore, a dove is considered a symbol of lust in India, Tibet. And therefore, doves should be very powerful among the birds. In Indian medicine and Buddhist Oriental medicine in general,

[36:58]

ordinary sexual activity is generally considered in the long run to be extremely unhealthy. And if you analyze the nature and understand the nature of the body well, mind well, I think it will be acceptable that it is so. It's definite, however, that we will have the perception that people will gain a perception of thinking that sexual activity is something beneficial, something that improves the nature of the health and the body and so forth. It's quite common to have such an idea. But this is an erroneous perception. And in fact, monastic traditions the world over can demonstrate that beings who have

[38:01]

become free of any drivenness at all by any form of sexual desire, they have a much better health and much better energy and are generally much better off. If they spend time, of course, thinking about sexuality, then of course this will lead them into a desire for it. Similarly, if there's a great conversation about it, this also disturbs their concentration. Similarly, if they see things that attract them, this can disturb them. Therefore, much about the design of the monasteries, monastic rules and so forth, have to do with preventing this kind of temptations. And then, in fact, as might surprise those who think that sexuality is such an important

[39:10]

motor of life, in fact, being people who live in that sort of circumstance, they actually don't think much about sexuality at all. In Tibetan monasteries, monks, when they are novices, they live under the tutelage of their teachers. Their discipline is to follow the regime of their teachers, whatever it may be. They don't just do whatever they feel like doing. And therefore, they have a very all-encompassing discipline to prevent them from being drawn

[40:14]

towards sexual interest. This is, in the Yuzho Monastery, for example, the novice monk has to spend three years in this kind of strict observance. In the case of very young monks or reincarnations, when they are invited to go back to their homes for a vacation or for a visit with their family, or to go to a layperson's house, they're never allowed to go alone, but only with their teacher. Therefore, the initial way of preventing sexual temptation in monasteries proceeds from this

[41:25]

simple regulation of the daily life of the monks and nuns to prevent them from becoming fascinated by the issue or letting their energy turn in that direction. One of the major thrusts of our Western psychology is to develop a non-driven, but a healthy sexual rapport between two people that has a flavor of love and maybe strong respect in it. Now, I agree that myself included, much of us have been very confused by sexuality growing up, particularly in this culture. But there is, I think, well, let's start with that.

[42:28]

I think that the most important thing is to develop a strong rapport between two people that has a flavor of love and maybe strong respect in it. And I think that the most important thing is to develop a non-driven, but a healthy sexual rapport between two people that has a flavor of love and maybe strong respect in it. I think that the most important thing is to develop a non-driven, but a healthy sexual

[44:25]

rapport between two people that has a flavor of love and maybe strong respect in it. Look, this for couples, in the case of couples, that there is some sort of a better outlook in regard to sexuality is something that Rinpoche agrees with. And indeed, he would maintain that, in fact, what is known as desire attachment, that is precisely the kind of attitude that wants to use the other person as an object, that is driven by some distorted perception of the person as an object, and wants to use that person to achieve some form of bliss for the subject. This is precisely the antithesis of respectful and loving and really relationships that are

[45:31]

based on people concerned about each other's happiness. And therefore, in fact, not only is it useful to understand the ways of controlling excessive desire attachment or excessive addiction to lust, not only are they essential, of course, to developing the monastic life and to sublimating the energies into higher pursuit of enlightenment and so forth, but also in the case of developing a healthy life of couples, the ability of the couple to remain stable, also that would seem essential. For example, for a couple to remain stable, the couples have to, not only is there some notion of sort of satisfying each other or being helpful, helping each other feel good and so forth, but also there's the question of being contented with each other, of not simply esteeming the desire... No.

[46:57]

So this is the way, for example, I have lived and I have controlled my mind and life? One sees lovely things in the world and so forth, especially if one is out of the cloister sort of thing and interacting with the world, but these are the ways in which one seeks to control one's reactions to those sights. No, and to therefore decrease one's attachment to sexuality just for its own sake, I recognize its unsatisfactoriness, this is very, very useful.

[48:33]

Actually, I want to ask him a question. Can he go to speak public?

[51:08]

No, never mind. He just wants to do something I want him to talk about. He won't? No, never mind. You should. Knowledge. Knowledge. You mean all of that was a no? Oh, no, no, no. No. It has to do with the fact that the bliss that is sought, through sexual activity, is something that is a taste of a kind of bliss that can be achieved through the dharma much more effectively. But in order to get him to talk about it, he has to talk in the subject of tantra, and he refuses, and so we can't talk about it. I have two questions. One is that it sounds from what he's saying that as he lives his life that he still has to use these techniques that he himself is still drawn into this realm of desire and sense of attachment. And if that's still the case after all his years in this practice, I feel that my case is probably pretty hopeless.

[52:11]

Oh, dear. The other thing is that he had offered to give us a little touch of emptiness. The first question he says is that you shouldn't become despaired about being able to become actually free of being attracted by desire in that way at all because if you can abandon the self-habit of misknowledge then you will become free of such kind of temptation

[53:14]

and those other methods will no longer be necessary. So you shouldn't despair of that if you come to understand the nature of self-habit of ignorance. So that seems to be enough on desire. There are a couple of questions before we have a touch of emptiness. He wants to answer his question. Or you may have other questions that we should now do before I answer his question. Yes. I don't know what core teachings include, but if there are codes of ethics for letting people into relationships such as monogamy, etc. are these included in your teaching?

[54:14]

Yes. Yes, the lay precept against adultery if I'm not sure of the western legal term as I said, but anyway, adultery means to engage in sexual intercourse with the partners of others and it's defined that way. That is the breaking of the that is the negative karmic path, the third of the physical negative karmic path is to engage in sexual intercourse with the partner of another. But that does not necessarily mean monogamy. In a culture where monogamy is the law then it would mean monogamy and breaking monogamous and actually the breaking of the precept is not only the betrayal of one's own partner but especially the interruption of the other relationship particularly because that's really the injurious to the other most injurious to the other injuring oneself is less emphasized there, one's own relationship but in the countries where there is polygamy or polyandry, in such cultures

[55:55]

where that is accepted in the culture for whatever reason, then it would be interrupting or having intercourse with the partner of one of the other polyandrous or polygamous relationships. So monogamy is not actually written into the Buddhist law in the sense that the Buddhist law can adapt to countries where the cultural situations are different. But fidelity within whatever the relationship is, is written into the Buddhist law and such infidelity is considered, therefore, what is called wrong sexual misconduct. For a lay person. Law. Law. In the meditation chapter of Shantideva

[57:01]

a great deal is taught about this subject. Or whether it's 6th or 7th, I'm not sure. The whole question of lay lives and the problems of lay lives and the ways of lay people restraining their difficulties and so forth are taught there in some detail. If you're interested in that, then you should read more than ever the Bodhicaryavatara. Now about emptiness I can't talk a lot, but if I say just a little bit... There is the statement

[58:10]

to return to what we were talking about yesterday there is the statement in the Heart Sutra that Avalokiteshvara truly and thoroughly looked, beheld the nature of the five aggregated processes of body and mind saw their nature as being empty with respect to intrinsic reality. As I said, the idea of thoroughly there refers to the fact that he looked with a wisdom that was integrated with the aspect of technique or liberative art of compassion. And therefore the teaching of the Heart Sutra depends upon that true or thorough vision. So although there is no direct instruction of compassion

[59:21]

or love and compassion or the spirit of enlightenment in the Transcendent Wisdom Heart Sutra, in this notion of thoroughly and truly is contained that idea. And this means that one will... The truly aspect means that it is combined in that way and the thoroughly means that the impact of the realization of wisdom in the context of emptiness, in the context of compassion will be developed from that vision. Now what he's looking at there, what he beholds there is the emptiness with respect to intrinsic reality. For something to be empty with respect to intrinsic reality is quite different from saying that something does not exist at all.

[60:22]

When you say he beheld something, you are indicating in fact that something exists, which was beheld. Therefore in his statement there is an indication of something that does exist and something that does not exist. In that statement about Avalokiteshvara. When you say that something does not exist you have to know why and how it does not exist. When you say that something exists you have to know why and how it exists. What is known as ultimate reality is understandable in terms of what Avalokiteshvara is saying does not exist. And the superficial reality or the relative reality

[61:30]

is understood, encountered in understanding what Avalokiteshvara is referring to as existing. In fact these two are non-dual. They are the same. But if we say ultimately they are the same, we can say these two are the same. But if we say these two are non-dual or the same, then it is useless and meaningless to say so unless we can give an account of why and how they are non-dual and the same. The one that the knower of their ultimate non-duality is what is called enlightenment. But with our minds,

[62:31]

our kind of dualistic minds, we can think and think about their non-dualism, the non-duality of ultimate and relative, absolute and relative, but somehow to think in the center of that host of refuge, for example, when we think about emptiness and we come to the conclusion or we meditate about emptiness, then we get to a state where we can't even see or perceive the things of the superficial relative reality. We lose complete track of them. When we think carefully about the things of the relative world, about the relationships of things and the causalities and the interconnectedness of things in the relative world, we get where we can't even... we lose all track of emptiness, of their ultimate reality. So when we think about emptiness, we lose entirely the relative. When we think about the relative,

[63:35]

we completely lose the ultimate of emptiness. So our mind always bounces back and forth in that way. And therefore, in this way, we don't really discover the way in which emptiness is inherent there. No. Now, when we do, if we properly proceed in that, when we reflect upon emptiness and we come to some experiential realization of emptiness, when the mind turns back from that realization or goes on from that realization in the next second,

[64:35]

we then begin to realize truly that the way things appear relatively speaking, the way the relative world arises is really illusory. It's like a magician's illusion. We really actually realize that once we have seen the emptiness of it. And when we begin to think about how things exist as like an illusion or illusory creations, like the creations of a magician, the more we get clear about how that is and the more we see things as being that, the more clearly their emptiness appears to us. And when one proceeds in that way to emptiness, towards more and more deepening one's insight into emptiness, then one transcends

[65:38]

dualistic perceptions and conceptions and eventually reaches enlightenment. So this is about emptiness and non-duality. So I still think this isn't going to really work out. I can't really teach you all about emptiness. Yes. I'm always very afraid in teaching about emptiness to people that when they hear like things like in the Prajnaparamita Sutra that there is no I, no ear, no form, no feeling, no ideas, no consciousness and so forth, that they are going to think that there is no I, no ear, no form, no feeling, no consciousness.

[66:39]

And if they think that there is no such thing as these things, this will be a great harm to them. Only if people prepare themselves carefully and understand exactly in what way Avalokiteshvara, in the case of that sutra, means that there is no I, no ear, exactly how he means that, how it can be that there can be no such thing, in what context there is, in what way there is no such thing. Only when one is thoroughly prepared to understand that very accurately and completely, with complete conviction and complete certitude, only then can one safely proceed to meditate that there is no I, no ear, and so forth. Therefore you must study,

[67:41]

you must analyze, you must reflect deeply about these matters and you must learn very much the teachings of Nargajuna and Samrakirti and so forth and then proceed into this meditation. Then your realization of emptiness will be so excellent. No. But I don't think I can really explain all this here. No. Such a dilute time. I have to explain all the difficulties. But I think I can. The most essential meaning, as Dzongkapa has said, is that when we do reflect upon emptiness itself, we do lose track of relativity.

[68:42]

But on the other hand, and then, after meditating on emptiness, when we return to perceive the relative and conventional objects of relative world, and if they do appear to us to be like illusions, not illusions, but like a magician's illusions, if they do appear to us in that way, then we know that we are meditating properly on emptiness even though in the temporary states of first approaching emptiness it will seem as if those objects disappear. No. Similarly, if in our process of interacting with relative things as we inevitably do, we go here and there, we go to the kitchen, we drink tea, we do this, we do that, in the process of doing that, if we do regard these things and we do cultivate the perception of them as being like illusion, like a dream, like a magician's trick,

[69:59]

then our meditation of emptiness, when we return to formal meditation of emptiness, it will be ever more powerful. Scientists say this, for example, which I like. Well, this refers to my favourite scientist, it's about my favourite scientist who is a subatomic physicist and who has retired and is a very venerable one and he has studied a great deal about the nature of subatomic energy and realised that there is no indivisible particle and that most of solid matter, supposed solid matter, is really empty space and therefore he can normally still survive to live outdoors and here and there when he's having tea and going home and playing golf and so on, but whenever he goes to his laboratory to work on some of his old experiments,

[71:02]

he has a pair of snowshoes that he puts on and hangs them by the door of his laboratory because when he's in there and he's thinking about the actual nature of reality of matter, he feels it's very dangerous that he might fall through the floor into the cellar and down into the earth, so he wears snowshoes to increase his chances of not doing it. So Rinpoche likes this fellow very much and he feels that this fellow is someone who is dangerously close to getting some real insight into the nature of matter. We who are supposedly meditators on emptiness, we never or rarely get actual experiential feeling of things dissolving into pure space of subject and object, all dissolving, pure of space, totally disappearing, but we have disappeared and the object has disappeared as if we died in fact in all of our coarse embodiment and the subjects we were in, our container, totally disappeared. In the threshold of the realizations of emptiness,

[72:06]

even though of course emptiness is not just an empty space, but nevertheless, in the thresholds of the realization of emptiness, there are many levels of experience wherein all apparent existences seem to totally dissolve into total non-existence where everything arises as a pure, clear void in which both subject and object totally dissolve. And therefore, it is that when one has seen once the world dissolve down the drain in that way, a world of subject and object totally dissolved down the drain in that way, then when relative objects re-arise subsequent to that experience, that is why they are said to be like an illusion. And of course, one should know that ahead of time in a way, because of course there is a tremendous danger if one has once seen things totally dissolve

[73:07]

subject and object, that one might be thinking that somehow these things that re-appear in the world of relativity utterly do not exist and completely don't exist. And the fact that they are illusion-like existence is a type of realisation and a real existence, even though relative and illusion-like, would escape us totally. I don't know about that scientist if he might end up saying that there was no such thing at the table. I hope not. If that scientist was to say that there is no such thing at this table, then he would become some kind of weird nailist, I'm afraid. But how the scientists who dissolve matter, in a sense, by understanding that there is no indivisible particle and that it somehow as an objective analysis-resistant phenomenon disappears, how they then account for its re-appearance or for, in fact, the coherence of relativity

[74:09]

of relative things which are existing in a relative way although they don't appear to exist in a relative way, although they don't ultimately do so, how they account for that, I'm not sure. I don't know. So now I can't say any more than that about emptiness and I have to seal my mouth. Okay, let's take a ten-minute break. There's some tea and maybe even some cookies. We might take practice together in a different way. And part of another question was in terms of women's spiritual development, this was, I think, a subject that we can all comment on, but it included a question for Rinpoche. Do women learn in the same way as men? Related to that, how

[75:11]

are feminine principles integrated in practice? Now, before we open it all the way up, if either Nina or Yvonne wants to make a statement, please do. Otherwise we'll go general. In terms of the first question, I also think that particularly for us at Zen Center we have an assumption about practice means practicing together. And one of the things that I know in my own life and that I've seen with other women practicing has been that particularly at the point at which we begin to have children, we are pulled out of the meditation hall, pulled out of group practice, and thrown onto our own resources to practice on our own in a way which our particular tradition and the way we're organized as a Sangha does not support or authenticate. And we end up doing a sort of kitchen table,

[76:13]

a kitchen practice that is around the kitchen table in the process of taking care of families and children and the whole question of is that authentic or true practice of the Buddha's way and what are the ways in which that aspect of our lives becomes recognized or acknowledged or integrated into our spiritual life. So there's that. I also think that one of the aspects that seems to be pretty clear in what's happening with Buddhism coming to this country has to do with women being an important aspect of the Sangha in a way that has historically not happened, at least as far as most of us can see. So we don't have certain kinds of ready models or guidelines When we first announced this gathering

[77:16]

a couple of people, a couple of women said here we go again, more teaching by the men teachers although there will probably be at least a few women participating. So there's that kind of dilemma about what do we do to generate a situation in which women will develop enough so that they'll also be teachers as well as practitioners. And the ways in which the role of women in practice affects both men and women. It isn't just an issue for women practitioners in this culture, but seems to be very relevant to both men and women practicing together because it may be that part of what we're looking at is how do we acknowledge and identify and nourish both the feminine and masculine aspects in all of us, whatever our specific gender may be. And immediately when women become an integral part of a

[78:17]

sangha with both men and women practicing together, all the issues that have to do with family and that aspect of life as an opportunity for a practice comes up. And again, where are our models, where are our guidelines and how do we find some sense of authenticity of spiritual life in those realms of our lives together. So it's a real shift away from the conversation we've had so far about monasticism in some ways to what's the tradition with respect to laymen and women, but it has a different spin on it, I think, for us as Americans. Anyway, those are the concerns that come up for me around this subject in that I hear from other people... ...and women as human beings.

[79:34]

And he was just to make the point that they were equal, just the same was the way he used to say it. And so some of my indigenous issues that, you know, this was meant to become a rabid feminist, I think, in a sense, because I started always looking at people as human beings, children and so on, everyone as a human being and so seeing it from the larger perspective although we are individually uniquely different, depending on our karma for many lifetimes that have brought us to this very moment, we all share the same exact difficulties of being born and alive and dead and obtaining enlightenment and so on. So I always keep that element around when I think about these different kind of issues because I feel that when one doesn't, it is very easy to get caught in some sort of big duality that women are so tremendously different somehow.

[80:36]

And so I would like to work more from the point of view of seeing things as more the same rather than different. I'd like to tell a story that I think is relevant to this, which is a story about the what the Yurok Indians call their medicine way or their wisdom tradition. A friend of mine who studied with a man that those of us in here at Green Gulch knew for a number of years, a man named Harry Roberts, actually has studied the religious tradition of the Coast Indians and the Yurok in particular. And one of the things that we discovered was that because the Yurok lived in close proximity to each other, among the

[81:39]

factors of their life together was that the women of the tribe all menstruated at the same time. So they actually retired from the community and from their role in terms of cooking and taking care of children and for those of them that were doctors, whatever their function was, during that period of time they would all retire to a big house. And it was during that time that they had certain practices that had to do with that period in their cycle but also it was an occasion to be withdrawn from their ordinary life for something between 8 and 10 days out of their monthly moon cycle. It was also at the same time that the men also retired to their own house and did their own practices. So this was a period of time when the members of the tribe separated themselves by gender to do a period of time

[82:39]

when they did sweats, they did fasting, they did all the things that had to do with purification and renewal and whatever their particular practices were in their religious tradition. And it was out of a kind of shared cycle that was key to what was happening with the women but which affected both the men's and women's lives and gave them a periodic cycle of observances that had to do with their wisdom tradition that was of real concern to all of them. And I've been struck by that particular bit of anthropology in terms of some of the things that have happened for people who've been living together, for example in Tassajara for practice periods. But things that I've heard about groups of men and women students practicing together for Sashin or during my practice periods in various meditation groups around the country. And that there are ways

[83:41]

of beginning to acknowledge some of the differences but resonances in the life cycles of men and women practicing together that we haven't looked at but that we could. We do have an occasion to look at what's actually happening in our lives and find a way of practicing together and separately in ways that make them all of us. That particular story was a good example of a kind of opportunity that I see for those of us who live in the situation where either for a long period of time or occasionally we do live together. And it's not exactly something coming out of a monastic environment but there's some aspect to what a shared life can provide in terms of opportunity. I think there are at least two aspects. I think Mayumi

[84:43]

brought it up from the point of view of women living in a monastic situation, I believe. And then there's the question of women and their practice in the home, in a family situation. Both of these are very fruitful areas of discussion that are kind of different. I asked one of those questions and I didn't necessarily mean that aspect of home versus monasticism because that was my part which was women's practice. I mean spiritual development no matter whether you're at home or not. But I say to Mayumi when she said how do women practice together is it the same as men's practice? I think she was sort of interested in the nunnery situation for instance in Tibet or in Japan. Is their practice the same as the practice

[85:45]

of men or is it somewhat different? And that may be less interesting to the people here perhaps. How about in the home when women have to take care of people during their young children's age when they can't practice together in the home? I guess I'd like to just ask you if you have some statement on your statement about what you think they've needed or what you'd like to say. Well to some degree I think part of what I would hope could happen has started to happen just because within Zen Center for example we have more experience of what happens for somebody when they have a child and are

[86:46]

put into a situation where they're thrown on their own resources and practicing alone in the way that that life circumstance suggests. One of the things I guess I would like to see us know more about is to look to the traditions in Buddhism that have some experience of solitary practice as a resource for us given that we have such a strong emphasis on group practice and not much experience with what it would mean to practice doing a practice where you go on a retreat alone. What are the circumstances? What in Tibet or Southeast Asia whatever the historical traditions where there's been some pretty significant experience and organization

[87:46]

that provides the support system for people to do a practice on their own. How are some of these organized where whatever the practices are, are done in a solitary manner rather than in a zenda of what we do. I think that kind of broadening just in terms of looking at the history of what's been done would help us begin to see some ways of trying some different ways of practicing. I think that for any of us who for a variety of reasons of family, aging and health being the two things I think of, it still is something of an uphill battle to practice alone and feel like that's okay. That's not somehow heretical or second class sort of thing. So what are the ways in which we can acknowledge and support each

[88:48]

other when that situation. At this stage of the game I'm more interested in having us find some ways of learning what the options are. I think looking to those traditions which have cultivated solitary practice is one of the things I'd like to see us do. I also think it would be great for us to learn more about what it means to be a teacher. One of the things I wanted to ask Rupesh actually was something he said a few days ago about the I think 10 characteristics or attributes of a teacher, qualifications of a teacher, and to try to look at those to the degree that they do or don't have anything to do with whether one is a man or a woman. But initially I because

[89:50]

where do we go for some guidelines? What does it mean for a woman to be a teacher working with both men and women students? All the models we have are men who are either teaching other men or both men. So those are the two areas that I personally am very interested in in getting some guidance and instruction and study. Lee, you're leaning in. Oh yeah, the part on opportunities for solitary practice, I'm interested in that hierarchical thing I mentioned before. One thing you know is Thomas Merton, who was a fanatic, was always interested in becoming more and more cloistered. His confessor wouldn't let him because he was sort of attached to being cloistered more and more more and more like a hermit more and more strict and he kept on asking

[90:51]

kept on being denied it but he did design a system where they could have hermitages within a fanatic setting and really looked into it and wrote about it and there is a writing available and they did and it seems to work. Yes. I wonder if Rukushe would say something about the qualifications of the teacher. Vinaya, the six qualities of the teacher are that they have ethical conduct and that he knows the rights and

[91:52]

methods of the Vinaya itself kind to those who are unwell who are ill whose followers are excellent or who doesn't have any creepy followers who has a very beneficial mind to people wants to help people as much as possible and who is ready to teach anytime he or she is requested to teach. Those are the six qualities of the teacher as described in the Vinaya. Oh, that's the one who you call a teacher. It was recited in my memory from the Vinaya Sutra

[92:55]

a verse that contains those six qualities. Now in terms of the Bodhisattva vow there are ten qualities of the teacher. Who should be conferring the Bodhisattva vow? These ten consist of having mastery of the three educations, as I like to translate them that is to say, ethics meditation and wisdom the three spiritual educations. And the fourth qualification of the teacher in the Bodhisattva thing should be that the teacher should know more and be more qualified than the student. Fifth is that the teacher should be one who strives to continue their own learning

[93:56]

all the time. They're always learning more and more and they have made great effort in learning a great deal. And one who definitely understands the meaning of the importance of emptiness all about therefore the self-habit of ignorance, how it works and how it is eradicated. That's sixth. Seventh is should be someone who when you ask them to teach the Dharma they don't make some tremendous heroic superhuman struggle about it and have like a terribly like oh gosh, it's the Dharma and it's like hardship for them. It should be like easy and cheerful they do it. It should be someone eighth

[94:57]

who strives ceaselessly who makes constant effort to benefit others and also to take care of him or herself. That's sixth. And two, that the person know the meaning, the real meaning of emptiness. This comes from the teaching of Nagarjuna. I think it's from the Surya Lekha from the friendly letter again to the king where the source of it is, but it's known as a verse of Nagarjuna, I mean it's known as a teaching of Nagarjuna and it's accepted canonically. To make effort in teaching the Dharma was tenth. What? Eloquent in saying what they mean.

[96:00]

And eight What? Oh yes, right. Striving to Striving to take care of others or ready to make efforts to work to take care of others and also to take care of themselves. I wonder if they would say something about who decides and when it is decided that somebody is ready to teach and perhaps also is there some review or something on the quality of somebody's teaching as they, once they've started it. These systems of the six and the ten qualifications, for example, are taught primarily to give the disciples criteria to make their choice of their teachers.

[97:20]

The power of choosing the teachers is really in the student. I want to study with this person and what qualities do they have, what do they lack and so forth. Do I or don't I? It's their decision to make the other ones are going to learn. But now in the case of monastic structure who is appointed abbot and who is appointed this and that, that's a little bit different. No. In other words, there is a process of determining in Tibet it's done pretty much by appointment by like the Dalai Lama or very highly regarded Lamas, these different abbotships and things like that. But in the ancient Vinaya

[98:21]

there was some other process. But in the case of the teacher which the disciple chooses, for example, in the monastery, the disciple doesn't have to take the abbot as the disciple's teacher. Within a given monastery there are many people qualified to initiate people, to teach them this and that text, to teach them this and that subject, to exemplify this and that quality, to instruct them this and that meditation. And the disciples therefore pick and choose. They say, well, this one is so great I don't know if they explain that or I've heard they know this or I just have a feeling about them. And they pick such a person and that one is my teacher. Often the teacher will refuse them. They have to insist and they will insist. And then that's how they choose their teacher. And these guidelines were set down in the past about what the qualities of a teacher are to help them make that decision. In ancient Buddhism in India

[99:22]

it seemed that the choice of one's guru or lama or teacher was something that there was a lot of attention paid to. Especially in the Tantrayana where the relationship with the personal teacher is so crucial. The fruitional vehicle type of practice such as Tantrayana. And it was said, minimum spend three years with your teacher, observing that teacher before choosing that teacher as your real teacher, life teacher of Tantrayana. Similarly there's a lot of instruction to the teachers on how to pick the student. Accept the student. Sometimes if the student comes up and says please I want to take the Bodhisattva vows it is taught for the teacher that they should not at all immediately say oh yeah sure, have a Bodhisattva vow. No way. Only when the guru

[100:34]

has decided by examining the disciple and carefully coming to know them and understanding their own understanding and their ability and so forth has decided that the disciple is truly capable of keeping the Bodhisattva vow do they consider them conferring the Bodhisattva vow. If the disciple has decided that he wants to keep the Bodhisattva vow he should not immediately say oh yeah sure, have a Bodhisattva vow. No way. Now it is also said that if in choosing a lama or guru or roshi one can't decide one goes and sees all different ones and simply can't decide who to be because one just can't make the decision as it is written that one should take the person who most other people like who is famous and seems to have helped lots of people and people are very grateful for the teaching of someone who has been most beneficial to many people by their other reports then take such a lama.

[101:35]

If you can't somehow judge their qualities yourself you feel that you are trying a lot. Is that ok? Is that alright Imam? Speaking about Nagarjuna and the king at that time Nagarjuna is respected as the father of all Mahayana Buddhism What that means is there was a crisis of Indian nation so to speak and Nagarjuna was an inspiration to the survival of the Indian nation

[102:37]

preserving good seed and ecology of preserving fine vision of the coming nation It seems Nagarjuna was like like a Moses-like image Moses-like Instead of going into self-destruction as a nation men and women knowing that

[103:53]

coming together again they separated and became kind of not heated like animals but cool people in terms of coming nation to create Prasangika Prasangika seems like a sword cutting all deluded idea or illusive vision in terms of turmoil I have studied about Chandrakirti

[104:57]

commentary of Nagarjuna Nagarjuna I didn't know until this time what was that I thought it was a philosophical extremely polished philosophical discussion It seems very important to know that escaping from destruction by war people meditate and discover the right way to move on together no way

[106:02]

Listening to the meditation technique teaching of impurity intensive visualization of impurity decay of our body while we are still young to the process of cooling ourselves down decreasing population of people

[107:09]

to have monastic life seems very nice idea of course young people like us our young age people have a very strong resistance to send children to the monastery but if you understand that children nowadays go to school and learn the skill to the new job they can survive themselves and benefit other people parents are very happy to help them society will help

[108:12]

them to grow maybe rest you speak I cannot speak more than this actually it's changing the subject but I wanted to ask the Rinpoche about people like myself who have been in the world and been householders and raised children and worked for many years and then consider becoming part of a monastic Sangha or some form or other does this occur in Tibet we hear about people coming here 4 years old and 5 years old and staying there and taking 20 years and 30 years to perfect various practices but those of us don't see that much time to do all that what kind of life

[109:13]

the older people have in the monastery do they come but in the monastery there are many people who come and stay and then they come to the monastery and then they come to the monastery and then they come to the monastery there's plenty of people in Tibet who become monks or nuns at an older age the nature

[110:20]

of the life in Tibet is that half of the national economy about went into supporting the monasteries about half of the national economy so therefore old so the older people spent naturally most of their energy and most of their effort most of their living in religious activity doing prostrations visiting the monastery doing pilgrimages praying, meditating reciting, whatever they could do all of their energy as much as they could

[111:20]

so they would turn towards religious practices dharma practices and so the idea of going towards as soon as one was free from obligations and submitted obligations of a worldly kind to enter a monastery and then went older to go from monastery to hermitage to go to long retreats this was considered ideal the way you do it for example, if in a little valley like this there were ten families there were ten families definitely

[112:21]

all the women would gather for at least one or two months a year in one place and collect the zamba and the butter and the different provisions and they would collectively decide that we're going to accumulate one million manis each or we're going to do 100,000 taras each, or we're going to do 10 million manis, or whatever it might be recitations with visualizations and so forth, and they would have their own retreat for one or two months even in a little valley definitely every year they would gather the guys would go over to another place and they'd do all their manis especially the older ones, and they'd gather and they'd do heavy manis somewhere else sometimes the whole family is all together, like the whole little community would gather and do certain things too for a week, or a month, or two days, or three days or something like that

[113:27]

their children would bring them the food, especially as they get older their children would bring them the food the ones who had to stay and work and so on therefore the old people definitely had a great interest in Dharma and it was expected that they should be free to do as much Dharma practice as they could as they grew older another major point that that Venerable Rinpoche which Netsur Rinpoche used to say when Lama passed away now he used to say this that while half of the economy went into the monasteries, and the other half went into supporting the people, and they never had a famine in their history, except for an under-invasion very stable kind of population and the irrigation and agriculture was not depending on rainfall, so it was very stable and they in spite of that

[114:31]

they had a tremendous amount of free time there was hard work at harvest there was hard work at planting and there were periods of hard work of making butter sculptures, or whatever for big religious festivals but then they had a tremendous amount of time to do absolutely nothing and one of the nice things about Tibet, Netsur Rinpoche said, was that people were really expert at doing absolutely nothing and they would sit around just like in the village, and they would play some game or they would say some mantra, or they'd go on a pilgrimage or whatever it was quite static there was no notion of making over making some huge national product they would just take time off and forget it when there was nothing to do and Netsur Rinpoche used to tell those to people who asked him how he compared communist China and the West because he had lived in both places for many years, and he used to say it's the same, we're both the same country nothing different about you capitalists and communists, because all of you are busy morning and night, and you've never got enough time to do what you're doing, and as rich as you are you seem to be even more busy and more frantic and I don't know how you imagine we would have such a nice time doing nothing

[115:32]

it relates to what he's talking about therefore you have more time for the Dharma when you have less to do our way of living was so different from America a family would stay together children, grandchildren parents, grandparents, so forth and uncles and so forth for a long time they would live together quite a lot for a long time middle-sized family would be like a community of 15-16 people every night they would gather and recite the Tara 21 Tara recitation all together as a family at least 3 times

[116:36]

maybe 17 times 21 times, whatever the little kid would learn Zazen all from a child just sitting there and going like this or reciting, sitting posture like this sitting posture and everything, cross-legged they'd pray together and the little kids would pray along with them so everybody could recite the 21 verses of Tara in certain main prayers and things, completely they didn't have the entertainment like we watch television

[117:36]

go to the movies and so forth and they would go down, guess where to the monastery and in the monastery they'd see plays and dramas and mystery plays and three-day dances and all kinds of festivals all kinds of ways of fooling around and when they saw the place what would they see? they would see the Buddha's Jatakas they would see the great Dharmarajas of ancient times all the great saints and so forth so even though the plays were all teaching Dharma the whole culture was teaching them the Dharma all the time so even the whole theater and entertainment industry in Tibet was all teaching the Dharma I have a story on this one I have a story on this one

[118:56]

I had a cousin who came out to the west from India and was educated in the US in Southern California for 6 or 7 years went to college in some kind of high school came back to his family who also had escaped and the mother of the family lived in Missouri in a refugee camp a colony there of the Tibetans and this young fellow, this college graduate back from the states, knowing English and the modern and the slick cassette recorder he comes back and there's his mother and he's hanging around Missouri and so forth and he notices his mother after breakfast or in the middle of the day seems to be in her room and he sort of pokes in there at some point and sees that she's writing Tibetan poetry

[119:57]

and verses of Dharma and this and that and he was totally astounded at her artistic skill and her knowledge of composition and how beautiful she was writing and he was totally freaked out it was a big crisis for him he had thought he was so educated and these people were so backward, his own people when he got back to his family his mother, who without going to any formal schooling but following the custom of the country the way that you just learn and you read Dharma books or you study some poetics had developed this tremendous skill and was so deeply educated and so learned he was really impressed and said boy, I'm amazed, my mother is so much more educated than I am no, no in general, therefore

[121:02]

the meaning of emptiness is the most wonderful thing all the words that express the meaning of emptiness the teaching on emptiness is so helpful to all of us it was the root of our culture and so helpful to us and the life in Tibet was based like that, that's how it was and in social intercourse for people to tell like, you know bad stories or this kind of thing was very frowned upon dirty jokes were not too popular when I was a little boy because I was a reincarnation I didn't get to stay in my home in my home family

[122:03]

and I was taken very young to a monastery so I was really disappointed because all my cousins and everybody they got to hang around my mother and hear all of her interesting conversations and learn in a certain way culturally from her and I got snatched away from this little crowd and taken up to the monastery so I was thinking at the time oh, I wish I wasn't a lama my family is a beautiful

[123:04]

tree trunk and a monastery growing always but it was sort of like that it was sort of like that it was really lovely the families related to each other the kindness, the lack of strife within families and their friendliness

[124:04]

and cheerfulness was wonderful sort of touching on what Yvonne had said I'm in the childbearing years of a female situation with the child responsibility of a child so I go to PTA meetings I don't exactly pick on the layman but I can't follow monastic schedules either so I feel like we're in this hybrid situation and I'm wondering if there were analogies in these other traditions which had a kind of permeable wall in the monastery and also what suggestions for people to practice differently it sounds like Tibet there wasn't this other range other concentric circle but some suggestions in that range I'd rather like to see

[125:08]

your dream what kind of world do you want to have well I have the sensation of being a bit lost for models so that's in this particular question I'm sort of wondering what other information from other people's experience what kind of world do you expect for your children to live what kind of world

[125:36]

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