So, I think that there's some truth to that, of course, you know, in a way. It is hard to practice spiritually without all the advantages, but I think that my view of monasticism is that, I think that the, like, you know, there's a fellow writing a book about monasticism that I've been talking with, you know, he's been talking to me a lot about monasticism and all this, and he thinks that, and I, this is what seems like the case, that the Catholic monastic system is petering out. It's not lively. It's actually not, like, I was at Gethsemane Monastery last year, and the average age of the monks at Gethsemane is like 68, because they're not getting new people. So, my idea is that monasticism is essential, just like you're saying, except we have to recognize that we all have a monk within us, even if we have children and so on.

[01:03]

We have a monk or nun within us, and we have to articulate that, and monasteries need to be open to people to come for short times, for shorter periods of time, or after they raise their children. In other words, not have a system where people go in there and they're there for life, forever, and you can't go unless you're willing to make that commitment. It's wonderful for people who do make that commitment, but when you have a monastery in which that's the only way in, it becomes irrelevant and stale over time. And I think that celibacy, while I, you know, I'm a great advocate of celibacy in our temple, at least for those who can do it for whatever time they can do it, the reality is that celibate monasteries and nunneries do not have a good record, you know, in the West and in the East either. And in our time, it just seems like it's kind of like outmoded somehow. Now I think that there should be, and there are places that I admire very much where that is practiced, but it's a very minority thing, and if that were the whole of religious practice, we would all be in trouble. So we're trying to figure out whether it can be done.

[02:06]

This is our experiment, right? Can you be a householder and seriously give yourself to Buddhist practice, which will mean being a monk or nun sometimes. Now if you're in a, like your house where there's 13 people, or if you're in a family where there's two or more adults taking care of the children, then why can't one person say, I'm going to go be a monk now, this weekend, or this day, or this week. This is how my wife and I did it, you know, we would take turns doing that. And you know, the children understood that mom or dad is going to Seshen, and that was what we did, and we'd come home, and you can do that. So this is our experiment, is to see whether, and this seems to be the great tendency in world culture at this point, is the blurring of distinctions. Isn't that what, look at all these different currents of thought, feminism, sciences and all that, everything, the distinctions are saying that at one time we're useful and valuable,

[03:10]

now are being blurred, and it seems as if we're trying to work out a sense of how to live in the ambiguity of sameness and difference at the same time. So yeah, there is something practical to what you say, but let's hope that it's not entirely true, because otherwise I think we all need to practice, you know, and not wait until our children are, we can, when our children are grown up we can practice in a particular way, perhaps, that we didn't before. But let's hope that our idea is until then we can't do, really engage in serious spiritual practice. People sometimes think that the people here are serious because we're full-time practicing, and that the people in their homes are not serious because they go out and they do their jobs. To me that's not correct, I don't believe that's true. Sometimes it's quite the opposite. I've seen a lot of people who are in their jobs totally dedicated to spiritual practice

[04:11]

and nothing else, even while they're doing their jobs and their families. And other people who are here, hanging around, who haven't found their feet spiritually. So, you can't tell by looking at somebody what's going on, and I think we have to believe it's possible. Anyway, this is our experiment. Let's see if we can do it. Let's see. I want to see if there's somebody who hasn't spoken yet. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, it kind of brings up a good question of what is spiritual practice, what we're talking about just now, but I wanted to make a comment on the point about the sacred, and I don't know if we're in disagreement about this or not. But for me, the pain arises when I make something sacred or I make it not sacred. That's at the exact moment that the pain arises, so I feel that I can't get caught up in trying to make something sacred or trying to do the opposite, because that's exactly where my suffering is. That kind of, I guess, related to the last point, I guess that's what my spiritual practice

[05:13]

is, is not making it into one thing or the other. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. She's saying that the pain arises when she tries to make something sacred or not sacred. It's that difference that hurts her, and that's what I was trying to indicate in my talk, yeah. Everything is sacred, or nothing is sacred. Either way, it's the same thing, right? Yeah. There's a couple more. You had something, and then you, and then we'll end. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, what got me triggered, actually, was just the concentration on family life and children versus public life. And my experience has been, since most of my life has been lived, in and around political life, movements. Those people that we place in leadership positions, frequently we invest, you're right, we build

[06:19]

a great deal on, we take them on our backs. We invest a great deal in their playing a particular role that others can't play or won't play. They're saying the words for us. They're doing the march for us. And frequently, they can't be good parents. They will have children. And there is an enormous sacrifice that does happen, and it seems that regardless of whether it was Siddhartha or whether it was Gandhi or whether it was some of the people that I was working with in the peace movement years ago, they all went through that same pain. And so to me, I would only ask that in extending our compassion, that we extend that compassion to people that we place in these roles.

[07:19]

And I think for me, the lesson had been when I was in that kind of a relationship with someone who was a major national leader in the peace movement, and he was human. And when I came to that realization, it was hard. It was painful. I expected that he was supposed to be perfect, and he had three kids. He couldn't be. And so I think at this point, finally getting to that place where I really feel the need to extend that compassion to those people that we place in these positions and to remind ourselves that that also is a sacrifice. That also is a practice. It also requires changing the way we are in the world if we take that role. And I just wanted to sort of raise that as a point. Yeah, I hope you heard what he said. Yeah, I remember many years ago, maybe like, I don't know, 25, 30 years ago, I met Ralph

[08:26]

Nader, just at the time when he had just published his first book about the auto industry, you know, Unsafe at Any Speed. And I remember he said to me, he said, you know, he said, I'm not going to get married and have children, because he said, you know, I wrote this book and I uncovered all this stuff, and the auto industry has been after me, you know, and if I had children, goodness knows, I would feel threatened, and I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing. I actually don't know whether Ralph Nader ever did get married, but I don't think he did. And I was amazed by his determination. So actually, he was wise, in a sense, you know, not to have to be forced to make that kind of sacrifice at the expense, it's also a sacrifice for others, that's the thing, it's not just your sacrifice, you're sacrificing the lives of the children and other people involved. But Ralph Nader was clear-sighted enough to know that if he was going to persist in what

[09:27]

he was doing, he was going to have to make the sacrifice not to have a family, and I think he didn't. So it's just as true of activists as it is of monks or nuns. The truth is that if you're going to really give yourself to that life, perhaps it's better that you not have a family. Yes. But the Catholics are in charge of that whole movement. Sister Bernie, yeah, she's a Catholic nun, she's the one who gets us all in line and makes sure that we all show up. And if it wasn't for Sister Bernie, this thing would not be happening. There would not be a coalition.

[10:27]

It's because of Sister Bernie and her passion. And many other Catholics who show up there, probably. But she is the leader. Anyway. I know. I know. I'm used to seeing the cathedrals. They're nice. No problem. Notre Dame. Listen. But there's something about it, the intimacy of this, the availability of a person, scholarly or taught, it's not something that I'm accustomed to. So I feel a little strange because a priest was always waiting. I was in the back of the church.

[11:28]

Right. Right. So I guess I'm kind of a little, I feel like I have, I don't know if my description is right, my glasses, if I jump closer, do I see far away? Yeah. So I guess in some ways, I don't know that I'm Catholic. I guess I'm Christian. But I don't think I'm Buddhist. But I see some value. So it's a little confusing. And I guess do you just keep including everything? I mean, it's a little disconcerting though because I can't look at a symbol and I don't even know who that is. And I don't really. It's my uncle. It's a resemblance. Well. I appreciate, I appreciate what you're saying. And, you know, one thing about Zen practice is that Zen practice does not require you

[12:36]

to be a Buddhist. Right? You can very well, plenty of Catholics who are seriously committed to being Catholics, like their priests and nuns and so on, who practice Zen. Did you know that? In fact, Zazen is the most popular practice, by far, in Catholic monasteries the world over. There are more Catholic monastics doing Zazen than any other single practice all over the world. So, obviously, it's not incompatible. And there are even Zen teachers who are Catholic, ordained Catholic religious. So it's not incompatible. But in our minds it all gets confusing. You know, what am I? Why do we have to worry about what am I? But we do. Somehow we do. So I would only say to you, be honest about your feelings and your confusion and certainly look at it and allow it to be there and just settle with it as you go on. Trust your gut.

[13:37]

Do what you feel is right and good for you. And as you go along, observe how you feel. And, of course, like everything, your feelings will change. And I think it will sort itself out. So I guess it's kind of just keeping an open mind. Yeah. Because I really don't know anything about that area of the world. Yeah. For me, I feel somewhat distanced from it. Yeah. There's something in it that's valuable. And so I was looking at that book story, so I didn't know what book we had. Yeah, yeah. Well, you don't have to read any books if you don't want to. If you do want to read books, then you talk to somebody and find out what book to read. There are a lot of books. Yeah, Buddhism is very, producing many books. A lot of people are getting rich. It's wonderful, huh? Okay, maybe that's enough for today. I really appreciate everybody's coming and being here. And I'm sorry that I'm not Linda Ruth. I'd probably be better off if I were.

[14:39]

Thank you.

[14:42]

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