Good morning. I know an awful lot of you here, and some of you I don't know. My name's Peter Overton, and I began practice here at Berkeley Zen Center when I wasn't here. It was over in Dwight Way in 1969. And I spent a good deal of time at San Francisco Zen Center in Tuscarora, and I've been in Berkeley now for the last 20 or so years with my family. Now the family's a little smaller, the kids are older, so on and so forth. But anyway, I'm enjoying being here and I'm looking forward to speaking today and hopefully hearing from you, although I've discovered that I have an awful lot to say. So... Oh, can't hear it? You want me to speak louder? Do you deal with this? Good.

[01:07]

So, as usual, I'm feeling a little nervous. Just thinking about being here in front of you, with you. And I think, you know, it's just that I've spent some time trying to find what's really meaningful in what is meaningful for you, I hope. So, I'm going to give that a shot, and here it goes. So, I wanted to talk today about an aspect an aspect of the Eightfold Path, which is the fourth of the Four Noble Truths, which Buddha enunciated shortly after his awakening.

[02:22]

And it's the truth of the path to the cessation of suffering. And the aspect that I want to talk about was Great Speech. Faithful path is commonly divided up into three. Wisdom, that is right view and right intention. Conduct, right speech, right conduct, and right livelihood. And practice and meditation, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. So I'm kind of wanting to have a conversation about right speech The reason I use the word conversation, I'll explain a little bit more later. I just want to say that right speech, right livelihood, and right conduct all have a common element, which is they take place in a social context.

[03:27]

It happens among us. And I'll get back to that more in depth later. Why do I want to talk about this? I found over the years that I have a really strong interest in the words we use to discuss our practice, particularly when those English words that we use that are often translations of Sanskrit or Chinese, when those English words have strong connotations, which usually lends them to interpretation of fixed idea. So the whole concept of right speech is fraught with interpretations as to what might be wrong speech. Actually, a common translation of the word samavaka, which is the Pali for right speech, is sama, meaning complete.

[04:32]

So what do we mean by complete? I would like to kind of just suggest at this time that complete has something to do with the nature of speech itself. And that is that it's not just speech. Whenever there's speech, there's somebody hearing speech. And so, to investigate speech is also to investigate hearing and listening. And I think this basic approach is true both between people and also within yourself. So let's just talk about between people for now. So, it's maybe

[05:37]

on the other side of the equation when we're having a conversation. The variables are always changing. Somebody's going to the power of 10 before you know it. And you're changing. And so there's a kind of a dance or an interchange in which some kind of quality is evident. Now traditionally, right speech is described in positive terms as true, kind, that is pleasant to hear. True, you could also say as an aspect of honesty, that kind of speech. And helpful, you know, appropriate to the moment or the context. And thus described negatively as the avoidance of

[06:47]

things like slander, lying and deceit, harsh words, or my favorite, idle chatter. Just speaking internally, I'm going to switch back and forth in different contexts as we're moving along here. There's about four. There's internal and external, and then there's listening or hearing. Listening and hearing are some interesting words because Hearing is more like a sense of, I'm really touching, I'm really hearing, you know, instead of that expression. I'm listening, something is touching me inside. I'm really connecting with that. But listening is more active. I'm really paying attention. I'm really letting you know. In fact, listening is a kind of speech. all sorts of cues, visual cues or whatever, that kind of thing.

[07:53]

Or I might be saying, gee, I wish you'd stop talking so I can say something. Put those cues. In any case, why do we want to consider this? Well, first of all, we're talking all the time. And second of all, fundamentally, we want to express our awakened mind. Bhaigaraja used to ask a question, used to give people a question. What is your deepest desire? And for me, that was a way of connecting with that sense of, I'm already awakened.

[09:00]

I can connect with my awakened mind by asking that again and again and again. And so, it's my thought that this is kind of what we want to do when we open our mouths, is we want to express realize our awakened mind. And of course we have many habits that are either habits or we have fears and so on that prompt us to choose some way to interfere with that kind of natural arising of beneficial action and identity action.

[10:12]

Under kind speech, he says something which I find inspiring. This is out of context, but I'm just going to read it. Kind speech is the basis for reconciling rulers and subduing enemies. Those who hear kind speech from you have a delighted expression and a joyful mind. Those who hear of your kind speech will be deeply touched They will never forget it. And he also says, you should ponder the fact that kind speech is not just praising the merit of others. It has the power to turn the destiny of the nation. So I, you know, I kind of think that's probably true. So it brings up a question, what really is kind?

[11:14]

Because we are often in a situation where we don't feel so kind, or we're in pain, or we've just heard something that is really annoying. And in what way can we be kind when we open our mouths, and truthful, and say something that might be useful in that circumstance? And maybe we can't. Maybe the best strategy under that circumstance is just to keep our mouths shut, which is not always a bad idea. But part of what allows us to find what might be true, kind, and appropriate is in the nature of this speech listening.

[12:15]

It's kind of like the speech and it's listening. And when we can have them together, then right speech just naturally arises. So I see it as something that takes place. I think the metaphor of conversation, actually, is quite useful for me. that the right speech is something we are creating together as we converse. That the back and forth, the checking in with, what did I really hear there? What was I really feeling when I heard that? All of that allows for a kind of mutual sharing of a wicked mind. Which is a nice thing to be able to do, since we spend so much time communicating verbally and otherwise.

[13:19]

So, there are many questions. How do you support this kind of quality of conversation? How do we encourage ourselves and others to find the capacity and the willingness to stay in the conversation, to stay in the exchange, and to avoid perhaps veering off and obstructing the arising of waking mind in this complicated dance that's occurring? So we often veer off. There are lots of responses we make when someone says, my mom's in the hospital. Or a coworker comes in and says, I just missed getting in a terrible accident this morning. Something like that that has something to it for you.

[14:35]

So we often have habits like, that's just awful. those drivers are such idiots. Or, you really should be more careful. Or, there are so many things that we say that are not about, they're not really addressing what we have just heard from another person. They're not recognizing the situation that is really occurring, which is that you have just heard from someone you know about something significant. So you might want to say, oh, wow, giving your attention to just what is occurring in that moment, not so much choosing to come up with the right idea of what to say, just giving your attention. Someone told me about a title of a book about death and dying.

[15:43]

It's entitled Stay close. Do nothing. Kind of that spirit. And then there might be a way to stay in the conversation by saying, oh, I bet that was really scary for you, or something that recognizes, you know, something that you think might have been going on for that person. So again, we're coming to the question of what this is all look like if you're trying to stay in conversation. So first, of course, is to and will might be to

[16:53]

Well, here's a good one. We're talking about, yeah, what is truth? You're talking back to the qualities, the traditionally named qualities of right speech. What is true? Well, again, considering this from the point of view of the metaphor conversation, it's pretty hard to know. It's pretty, you can, because it's, you know, we're talking about something that's co-created here. It's a pretty good guess that if I say the sky is blue, nobody's going to argue with that, unless the person's gray. But, so, Often, if you have something to say to somebody, and you want them to stay in the conversation, and you want them to hear everything you want to say, it's really useful to start with something observable.

[18:11]

Like, when I heard you talking about know about himself, that's a pretty clear observation. If I say it like, when I heard you talk so wonderfully about, then we're getting into, well, what's going on there? There was some sort of judgment or evaluation included in that statement. Is the person who hears that, are they going to be confused about what was meant there? But if you say, just what you heard, another element of truth is often, which is something that can be communicated without interfering with the arising of the other person's interest, is what you feel in that moment.

[19:13]

Now, I can't know what anybody is really feeling at this moment. Maybe you're getting ready to run out of the room. I don't know. But, I can guess, to a certain extent. And likewise, if I say, when I heard him talking about the fact that there is no abiding self, I felt inspired. Well, the thing about naming feelings is that it's often pretty easy to And so, just say, this is my reality. I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about my reality. I'm owning my reality here. I see this. I feel this. That's not so hard to swallow. You might actually go a step further.

[20:21]

You might say, how is this experience that I'm just having really meaningful to me? When I heard you talk about Noah by himself, when I walked into the kitchen and saw the dirty dishes in the sink, I felt annoyed and irritated. Because what I really wanted when I came in was some peace and order in the house before I start cooking dinner. This is not about the other person still. This is about me. I have not said anything about that other person. I have not said, when I walked into the house, I was so upset to see that mess in the petition. And god damn it, I just want to do something here. That kind of expression, which we all choose from time to time, makes it a lot harder, a lot less likely that the other person is going to stay in the conversation.

[21:27]

Or choose to express themselves in a way that you might find easy to hear. So if you give an expression about what you see is true, what's true for you inside, and how that is really meaningful or deeply meaningful for you. I'm using pretty ordinary circumstances, you can talk about how this approach will find its way in almost any circumstances. So the next piece is, if you've been able to express in a way that is meaningful to you, to really get everything out on the table, which is completely Then it's time to invite the other person back into the conversation.

[22:29]

How would you do that? Is there something you're wanting from them? Are you just wanting to hear what they heard you say? Are you just wanting to hear the words that they heard you say? Are you wanting them to do something? And often it's best, more than likely, that they're willing to do it. If they can do it right now. If what you're asking for is something positive. And what you're asking for is simply a request that they can choose.

[23:38]

They can choose to do it or not. If they receive it in that, if it's offered and received in that spirit, they're more likely to stay in the conversation. So this is also especially true of internal conversations. How many of us would speak aloud the way we talk to ourselves? You can choose how you speak to yourself. I'm really feeling a little weird here. I actually would like to have more exchange with the people here. But I've also got a few more things I want to say. It's just singing out loud here. So I want to go back to this last piece about inviting somebody back into the conversation by way of asking them to do something for you.

[24:55]

Kidding aside for a moment, is there any better gift that you can give somebody than giving them away to make you happy? putting that question out there on the edge there for you. But that is the kind of spirit that asking someone else into the conversation by way of, you know, you're actually making a request to them, that is a gift for them. And they can say, no, you know, I don't think I want to wash the dishes right now. I'm feeling a little torn because I can tell you're upset about this, but I am so into my homework that, you know, I just, I'm really excited about it.

[26:09]

Well, I wonder if, well, I think I'll go lie down for a while. But leaving open the possibility, one of the biggest ways in which we interrupt the flow, the arising of awakened mind, is to be fixated on the outcome. And our entire culture is driving us in this direction. are always being prompted to reach for something because that is going to work. That's going to be the thing. To not do something else. To have to have the thought, the other prevalent thought, is that somebody is going to get their way and the other person is not going to get their way.

[27:20]

And so I want to suggest that this metaphor Conversation as a description of right speech is a way to make it possible for everyone to know that what's important to them matters. It's not that everybody has to get what they want, or even that I have to get what I want. But I want to know that in the context of my relationships with my spouse, and my family, and you here, and whoever I'm conversing with, that what's important to me matters, and that happens. I find that out by being able to engage in this kind of conversation I'm trying to describe. That I'm inspired to make space for the arising of awakened mind when that possibility is there. the other side of this thing, which is hearing, listening.

[29:01]

When you talk about Avalokiteshvara, hearing, it drives the world. So what is it that we're hearing? What is it that we're listening for when someone's telling us they really didn't like their car parked, their new parking that they really don't believe you when you tell them that you weren't trying to block their driveway. That they're a little bit annoyed with you. What are you listening for? Are you just listening to the words and reacting to the words? Or are you listening for their awakened mind? Which is there. Which is maybe Maybe it's being a little short-circuited or something.

[30:08]

And again, likewise, when you're saying that I often have this experience of this stuff going on, you know, am I going to listen to that? What am I really like? Can I listen more deeply to my own cries? and have some compassion. Compassion, now that's an interesting word. Compassion. To me, I'm interpreting this now in the same way as a metaphor for shared arising of awakened mind. Mutual arising. Mutual, independent, interdependent arising of awakened mind in the midst of conversation. Compassion. co-passion, or complete passion, or the passion that is created in the context of listening to each other, speaking with consideration for how you yourself would really like to be heard.

[31:21]

In fact, the kind of speech I was talking about where we are just, you know, the kind of non-verbal cue, we're just listening to you, giving you some attention. That's the kind of speech that we can't get enough of, when someone's really listening to what's deep inside. The more we can do that for each other, I don't know that there's any end to that benefit. So listening. So there's a kind of listening to paying attention. And then there's the listening of, did I understand that person in the way they wanted to be understood? Am I confused about what they just said? Are the words not clear? Is what they were saying, was there such intensity to it that I got distracted?

[32:30]

And I want to come back and step back for a moment. I just want to take one piece of it, maybe. At that point, you might want to just say, again, then we're in part switching back into speaking. But the speaking is more of a sense of, again, inviting the person to be clear with you. When you say such and such, did you mean that or did you mean this? Were you feeling, you know, my mom's in the hospital and everything's just fine. You know, I'm confused. Did you... I heard you say everything's just fine, but I wasn't sure really what you meant by that. You know, I was a little surprised when I heard that.

[33:34]

Can you tell me more about that? That's like an instance of somebody saying something about how they're feeling. Well, we don't know what they're feeling, because they didn't say in that example I just gave, didn't they? They said everything's just fine. They didn't say how they were feeling. It's so subtle, the way we use language to sort of slip by, to not So, a compassionate approach to inquiring more deeply is often welcome, because often our friends, and often I find myself, not really knowing how I feel, not really knowing what's really meaningful about what happened to me just now.

[34:49]

And to have someone listen to me, and then really help me especially even if they get it totally wrong it's like oh yeah okay no that's not it it's this so this is a lot of ideas about how to support the manifestation The point is really that this is what we want most is to hear ourselves and hear each other deeply and to speak our real truth without being held back by the fear that somebody's not going to like us, somebody's going to think we're stupid.

[35:51]

Let's go on with that a little bit here. I'm stupid, nobody likes me. They're going to kick me out of here. I'm going to be all alone. I'm going to die. That's pretty good. Am I listening to that? Am I choosing to stretch inside somehow and listen more deeply? I'd like to stop. You've been listening to me very kindly for quite a while.

[37:08]

What's the time left? You have about three minutes. I really did go on, didn't I? I want to just call on hands. Mark. Thank you for your talk, Peter. It's very provocative. I'm wondering, you mentioned some of the wonderful examples that all seem I'm thinking of the kind where someone says something to you that just takes you off. How do you make the space? How do you have enough time to keep them there to go through? Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you come back later. Sometimes you cannot feel enough spaciousness to recognize they said something, you felt something, And you started thinking, that's bullshit. They shouldn't say that. They're not allowed to say that. God damn it.

[38:08]

Boom. All in one. Like that. You know? Something triggers you into a reaction that you don't have any control of. You're really familiar with. And it just happens. But you can. You can always consider, oh, wow. That was really something. Oh, wow. And you can say, you know, I can't take this in right now. I've got to take a walk. Whatever, you know, you find some way. But you can always come back. You can always choose to come back. So, yes. Thank you, Peter. That's really good. I think what you're talking about is very, very basic material for all of us. I'm just wondering if you could say something about how we go about training ourselves or working with ourselves to change the way we listen and also talk.

[39:18]

Well, I have done a lot of work in that regard, and I've done it outside of the context of the Sangha, and I'm now really excited about trying to talk about it in these terms. Let's just put it this way. This is a longer thing. Maybe we should talk about it later, actually. But I'm really interested in having this conversation in the language we are accustomed to here. So I'm not sure where to go with it, but I may have to talk to you about it for a minute. Yes? Well, Peter, thank you. You brought up a number of things that would be very helpful. The thing that came up for me listening to, certainly I'm going to take a lot of this away to work with this.

[40:24]

It's a lot to think about when you're talking. So the question I have for you is how, when you're talking, are you going to work with all that at the same time? Or where should you rest? Or where should you put your mind? I'm going to talk about, just quickly, because we're at the end, there's a teaching referred to as the three stages of listening. There's one, which is hearing and understanding the words. Two, is reflecting on the meaning. So it's a process. And so I guess, again, how do you take some little piece of this and work with it in a way that's useful to you? And I'm really interested in having a conversation about that.

[41:18]

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