it goes right to the heart of practice. So, in the case, Master Nansen, who is the teacher of Joshu, the case is between these two teachers. although Joshu seems to be rather young at the time, maybe 20 or something. Joshu, of course, lived to be 120, and is maybe the most famous Zen master, but that's hard to say. Nevertheless, and his teacher, Nansen, was So although Joshu was a very good student, and he had good understanding, he may still have had some doubt.

[01:16]

But this is a rather, you know, coming from a new student, this is a kind of wonderful naive question. Coming from Joshu, who even though he was young, already had realization, it probed him deeper. Even though Joshu had realization, he still had some doubt. Not doubt about the way, but something unclear in his mind. So, Joshu asked his teacher Nansen, he said, what is the Tao? And Nansen says, ordinary mind is the Tao. And Joshu asked, well, should I try to direct myself toward it?

[02:25]

Should I study it? How should I study it, or how should I approach it? And Nansen said, if you try to approach it, you betray your own practice. There are various ways that this is translated, none of which I'm very satisfied with. So I like to say, if you try to approach it, you stumble past it. That's my interpretation. If you run after it, you stumble past it. And then you just keep going. And you never see it. So Joshu asked, well, how can I know the Tao if I don't go for it, if I don't make some effort?

[03:27]

And Nansen said, the Tao is not subject to knowing or not knowing. It's not something you know or don't know. Knowing, no matter how much you know, it's still in the realm of delusion. And not knowing is simply ignorance or lack of cognition. If you truly reach the genuine Tao, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can this be discussed at the level of affirming and negating, or at the level of knowing and not knowing? With these words, Joshu had some realization. He woke up. And then in Mumon's comment on the case, he says, questioned by Joshu, Nansen lost no time in showing the smashed tile and the melted ice, where no explanation is possible.

[04:42]

And although Joshu had realization, he could confirm it only after another 30 years of practice. And Mumon, in his verse on the case, which kind of sums things up, he says, spring comes with flowers, autumn with the moon, summer with breeze, winter with snow. When idle concerns don't hang in your mind, that is your best season. So, to get back to the case, Joshu says, asks, what is the Dao? What is the Dao? Dao, of course, is a Chinese word, which springs from Lao Tzu.

[05:52]

In China, the philosophy of Dao influenced Buddhism and it was the catalyst, the indigenous catalyst, which created Zen. So Buddhism, although Zen is Buddhism, when Buddhism comes into a country, first from India, then to Sri Lanka and eventually into Tibet and Mongolia and China and Japan and Southeast Asia and all over that part of the world. And each place that Buddhism comes to There's a process called assimilation in which the local philosophy and deities are absorbed into Buddhism and take their place somewhere in a Buddhist pantheon.

[07:12]

So in China, Taoist and Confucian ideas were what governed the Chinese people. But they were not formulated into Taoism or Confucianism at that time. They were just kind of... Well, Confucianism was a very practical kind of morality that guided the Chinese. And Taoism was a kind of more religious philosophy. And there are elements of Taoism which are very close to Buddhism. So when the Buddhists came to China, Buddhism was much more intellectual and finely attuned as a religion. And the Chinese, it took the Chinese about 500 years to assimilate Buddhism. And originally

[08:17]

the Chinese couldn't understand very well the Indian sutras because the language, not only was the language different, but the way that Sanskrit, the Indians using Sanskrit had an alphabet and the Chinese had a system of characters. So just getting a common way of understanding language written language took a long time. So the Indian teachers used Taoist terms to explain Buddhism to the Chinese. And using the Taoist terms, because in some ways Taoist terms have something in common with Buddhist terms, although they're not the same. And the Chinese finally broke away from the Indian religion of Buddhism and created their own Buddhism, which was called Zen.

[09:36]

It was still Buddhism, but it was Buddhism with a Chinese indigenous understanding. And so Daoism influenced Buddhism, and Buddhism of course influenced Daoism, but later the philosophy of Dao and the philosophy of Confucius became Daoism and Confucianism. And they competed with Buddhism. And the three were always competing with each other in China. But Zen is a kind of hybrid Buddhism using Taoist, and some Confucian, but mostly Taoist understanding and a lot of Taoist terms. So in America, our Zen will no doubt be influenced by Christianity and Judaism.

[10:44]

since there are a lot of Catholics and Jews in Zen, that will undoubtedly happen. And even if you don't recognize it, it's already happened. So American Zen will have its own flavor in time, influenced by the existing religions and philosophies. And already, you know, we have psychotherapy as an influence. Because that's a kind of American religion. Sort of. It's not a religion yet. But neither was Daoism or Confucianism. So, Joshua asks Nansen, what is the Dao? So Dao, of course, is a Chinese Daoist word, which means the way, sort of like the way.

[11:55]

But what kind of way do we mean? There are various kinds of ways. So Dao has two meanings. When we say, in Japanese, if you say Tao, it means various things, but in Buddhism it means fundamental way. And there's another word which is Michi, which means ordinary way. So this word ordinary, you know, nonsense says, well ordinary mind is the way, ordinary Tao is the way, or ordinary mind is the Tao.

[12:58]

So this word ordinary has two meanings. Ordinary in its root means like sacred, and in its mundane meaning it means ordinary, or like usual, business as usual. And we usually use the word ordinary in the sense of usual. We use it in a mundane sense, almost always. But its basic meaning is sacred, or eternal or constant. So constant and usual look alike. If you say constant, it's a little different from ordinary.

[14:00]

Our usual ordinary activity is the Tao, but actually also our constant, the constancy of something. What is it that can't be overturned? That's the doubt. When you eliminate everything, what is it that can't be eliminated? That's the doubt. But old nonsense is not saying anything. He's just saying ordinary mind, that's the doubt. So then what is ordinary mind? What is the word ordinary? It's a very interesting word. Usual, but it means order.

[15:05]

It comes from the root order in the way things are ordered. So usual, or ordinary, well, usual, things are as usual means that they follow the kind of ordinary patterns that we're used to, or that we understand. Nothing special. For the Chinese, ordinary means, in the sense of Dao, means the way of heaven, the order of heaven, the inevitability of the way things are. the emperor's stamp, so to speak. So it has these two meanings. It means ordinary and holy at the same time.

[16:07]

So when Nansen answers, he says, ordinary mind. So ordinary mind has this ambiguity. of ordinary and holy. And these are the two polarities that we deal with. Ordinary and holy. Sacred and profane. So, this is the realm, of course, that he's talking in. So, nonsense, he's doing very well. He's keeping himself from falling into either existence or non-existence. It's a great answer, great response. And he never does let himself get pushed off. There's a phrase, a Japanese phrase, Hei Zio Shin.

[17:20]

Hesio means like the mind which can't be upset. It's like non-dualistic mind. Ordinary, in the sense of ordinary non-duality, which means it falls into neither existence or non-existence, or into sacred or mundane. or the Dao, the Eternal Dao or the Temporal Dao. And so Josh's question is also interesting. What is the Dao? Does he mean the Eternal Dao or does he mean the Ordinary Dao or the Mundane Dao? In the meal chant, we say, in the second part of the meal chant, we say, desiring the natural order of mind, we should be free from greed, hate, and delusion.

[18:44]

This phrase, natural order of mind, it's a nice translation. What is natural order of mind? the natural order of mind. Usually we desire all kinds of things. But the natural order of mind is like when desire becomes intention, or when it becomes vow. Then desire is no longer desire to satisfy ego, but desire to seek the way. So we say desiring the natural order of mind. Natural order of mind is Tao, but it's natural order. And order, again, is ordinary. Desiring the ordinary mind, desiring Joshu's ordinary mind, or nonsense ordinary mind. We need to get rid of greed, hate, and delusion.

[19:55]

when we get rid of greed, hate, and delusion, when we're no longer bound by greed, hate, and delusion, then this is natural order of mind. Because natural order of mind is not acquired mind. It's just our ordinary mind. But where is our ordinary mind? This extraordinary order of ordinary mind which is naturally extraordinary, but, you know, it's like there's an old teapot that, you know, when you keep a teapot on the stove for a long time, a copper teapot, it starts getting, teakettle, it starts getting more and more dull. and it gets splattered with stuff.

[20:56]

Pretty soon you just think of it as an old, ordinary teapot, tea kettle. And then every once in a while, maybe after five years, you're cleaning up the kitchen and you decide to clean up the tea kettle. And pretty soon this tea kettle looks all new and beautiful again. And you didn't notice it because it's been all covered up with junk. But all the time it had this wonderful shining body. But we get so used to it that we don't see it. And every once in a while we have to clean it up in order to see it. So our greed, ill will and delusion are kind of like the coverings of our shiny nature.

[22:05]

And it's said that nirvana is the absence of greed, aid and delusion. Nirvana is not something that we acquire. It's just the natural order of mind, or in this case, ordinary mind. So then Joshu says, well, should I try to direct myself toward it? How should I, how can I approach it? How can I go after it? How can I practice? What can I do to bring it forth? And nonsense is if you try to direct yourself for it, you stumble past it.

[23:11]

You try to do something to catch it, you stumble past it. Another way you could say is you dualize it. As soon as you start to think about something beyond, then you make a split between what's here now and what you want. Well, and then, Joe, she says, the natural question, well, if I don't, if I don't do it, how can I know it? Great question. If I don't go after it, how can I find it? You know,

[24:18]

Don't go seeking enlightenment. Don't think about Buddha. Just do your practice. Just do what's in front of you. That's all you have to do. Just do completely what's in front of you. If you go looking for something, you stumble past it. But yet, if we don't look for it, It doesn't appear. And if we do look for it, we stumble past it. This right there is the koan. It's a great koan. So where are we? If we do it, 30 blows. If you don't do it, 30 blows. Tokusan was very famous for giving the monks 30 blows, whether they were good or bad.

[25:24]

But then, if he gave you 30 blows, you'd feel wonderful. You may laugh, but it's so. Nonsense end. The Tao is not subject to knowing or not knowing. You can't know it, and you can't not know it. There's the second koan. You can't not know it, and yet you can't know it. Knowing is a kind of delusion, because when we talk about knowing, we talk about our thinking mind. But knowing the Tao is beyond thinking mind. Because the Tao that you can think is not the Tao. The Tao that can be delineated is not the Tao.

[26:33]

And yet, the Tao permeates everything. So he says, knowing is delusion. Not knowing is lack of awareness. If you truly reach the genuine Tao, you will know it, that it is vast and boundless as space. I think another way to say that is that it has no special shape or form. If you say it's as vast as outer space, space is used as a kind of metaphor for endlessness. But that's okay. But the Tao has no special shape and no special form. So if you look for a special shape or some form that's the Tao or some idea or some

[27:41]

configuration. That's not it. And yet, every shape, every form, is it. So, if you try to pin it down, you can't pin it down. But if you let go, it fills your hands. This is what Dogen says. When you grasp it, it runs away from you, but if you open your hand, it fills your hand. So then he says, how can this be discussed on a level of affirmation and negation, or the level of right and wrong, or the level of So you can know it through not knowing, and you not know it through knowing.

[28:53]

So only those who don't know, know. But if you think that because you don't know that you know, that's not right either. There's a lot of nice little koans in this. It's like we're always walking, but we're always in the same place. At the same time that we're always walking, we're always in the same place. Isn't that interesting? We may think we're going somewhere, and you can't say that you're not going somewhere when you're going somewhere, but we're always in the same place. no matter how far we're going, or where we're going. We always end up in the same place, which is here. We always end up here.

[30:00]

So then Lu Man says, a question by Zhou Zhou, by Zhou Xu, Nansen lost no time in showing the smashed tile in the melted ice, where no explanation is possible. The smashed tile in the melted ice, you know, means a lack of solidity, you know. He showed where the ungraspability of right here, right now, this. He showed that that's really ungraspable. Although the Tao, you know, Tao means the way, and way means going. That's what a way is, a way means kind of like a road, you know, it goes. Although the road is going, where does the road go? Well, the road goes to there, but it's also right here.

[31:09]

So, even though the road is going, it's standing still. Even though the river is moving, the river is standing still at the same time that it's moving. The river is like a rushing torrent, and yet it's completely still at the same time. It doesn't go anywhere. So, this is like the two sides of ordinary. Ordinary mind doesn't do anything. And yet, it's always like a torrent. Like a rushing torrent. And at the same time, it's not doing anything. not going or coming.

[32:19]

But if we try to hold on to that, we can't hold on to it. How can we do it? So what do we do? The question is, well, what do we do? I should just leave it there. In the poem, he says, flowers, autumn with the moon, summer with breezes, winter with snow. These are the seasons. And the seasons also are like the moments of our life. Every moment is a different season. He says, when idle concerns don't hang in your mind, that's your best season. What are idle concerns? Sometimes I ask people.

[33:35]

Well, mostly, the most important thing is, write what's under your feet, or write what's under your nose. What am I doing? What am I really doing? Do you have a question? The word derivations for ordinary, you talked about, you said two meanings.

[35:39]

I assume you talked about both the West and the East, I think. Is that true that both in Western culture and Eastern culture, that word had those two meanings? Ordinary is our English usage. But yeah, it has those two meanings, actually. But our words come from Greek, Latin, and Eastern words come from, what, Sanskrit? Well, Sanskrit and Chinese, which are very different. But the meaning is the same. So from both sides of the world, they develop those two different

[36:40]

meanings for that one concept. Yeah, it's universal. Everywhere in the world, it's universal. It's the two sides. One term has the two aspects of meaning. There's no place where that doesn't exist in the whole world. take care of.

[38:00]

Is it a matter of many and few? For me, at times of confusion, I'm not able to separate that out. So what causes confusion? Only one. We can only take care of, although each thing has many causes and conditions for its arising, we focus on one thing. And when we focus on just one thing, that one thing includes everything.

[39:41]

When we do one thing completely, then we can go on to the next thing and do that completely. But when our mind is scattered and our activity is not complete, is not total, then we leave a trace or a trail. And when we go to the next thing, we're not our mind is not completely one with that thing, because that event, because what we're bringing from this moment to this moment is not complete. So that's how we remain in a state of confusion. And one reason why we remain in a state of confusion and incompleteness.

[40:51]

So, the practice, actually the practice of Zen, you know, is to be, to do one thing on one moment. To do one thing, to be completely one with your activity on one moment. And it's, the difficult part of that is because, is that we're thinking about other things. We're worried about the future. We're thinking about this in connection with that. We have to do that. We're thinking about the result. Or we feel because this one wants some attention that we have to look over here. And that thing wants some attention, we have to look over there. And of course, all of these, and because of all the feelings we have and emotions we have, We think we have to look there. But actually, we have this one thing in front of us to do. And to be able to do that without being burdened by thinking about the future, thinking about what this one wants, or what that one wants, or what this wants, just do it.

[42:03]

Just completely do. That's to be unburdened. Very hard to do. It's called one-act samadhi. And at the same time, there's a koan about not ignoring cause and effect, which, to my mind, kind of gives up the idea that, well, whatever you're thinking about, or there's... Not ignoring cause and effect means not being caught by cause and effect. You know. Joshu, at a different time in his life, was talking to a monk. And this monk said, I can't remember the question of the monk, but he said, you were controlled by the 24 hours, but I control the 24 hours.

[43:05]

In other words, this monk, and most of us, are pulled around by causes and conditions, and time, and circumstances, whereas Joshu is right in the middle, right in the center of circumstances. And he decides how it should go, rather than being pulled around by it. But of course, you know, Joshu doesn't have a lot of time. His desire is not out there to be trapped. So, for a person like Joshu, who has stopped the outflows, so to speak, he doesn't have a wide body of tentacles, which can easily be

[44:13]

caught by things. So he decides how it goes rather than being turned around by circumstances. But that doesn't mean that you're not influenced by circumstances. We all are. So the important thing is how we turn circumstances and how we're turned by circumstances. So it's reciprocal. We enter into the world of circumstances and we're turned by them and we turn them in turn. But this is called harmonious relations with your environment. How do we do that without being turned around or caught by things? You know, this life is very busy and the way people are going is that you have to know, you have to have a lot of information. We invented the computer, and in turn, we feel that we have to be like computers.

[45:19]

We have to be receptacles of information. So we've put in a lot of knowledge. And it makes us very busy, because we think we have to know everything. and there's so many activities in the world, and we think we have to do everything. If you don't do everything, you're missing something. If you don't do all the things that are presented to you, you're missing out on your life, you know, and you'll die and say, God, I didn't do all those things. And then your life will be fruitless. This is the way we're going, actually. If you look at the momentum of society, it's going that way. And not only that, we just ignore each other in order to gain as much as we can. And then we wonder why we're going crazy. So just to do one thing at one time, that's enough. It's very hard, because there's so much pressure to do so many things at one time.

[46:26]

But just to be able to know that those pressures are there, But just, this is what I'm dealing with now. And then I'm dealing with that. You have to have a lot of equanimity to do that. To not be turned over by the pressures around you. Anyway. So, the difference between learning the books here, and what seems to me like a lot of knowledge and a lot of things to do, The difference is that this is very simple. Not very much. You can learn the form here in one day. But the practicing of the form takes all of your life. Even though the forms are very simple, it takes your whole life to learn how to bow.

[47:31]

There's really nothing to it. And even though zazen is very simple, it takes your whole life to learn how to sit zazen. So when you're sitting zazen, just sit zazen, even though there's all this competition for your attention. And it's all in your own mind, right? Tremendous competition for attention. So how do you, you know, Zazen, if you learn how to do Zazen, then you learn how to do one thing at a time in the world. Because in Zazen, you have exactly the same kind of competition for your attention as you have out in the world. It's really no different. Exactly the same. And sometimes more so. So what do you do with that? Well, you just let it go. You just let it come and you let it go.

[48:42]

But you say, I'm doing zazen now, excuse me. That's how you can do one thing at a time. Even though you have a lot of competition for your attention, you just have to say, excuse me, but this is where my attention is now. And you have to be able to deal with that. Sometimes you have to say, put that aside and do something else. That's two, you know. But then you say, now I'm putting this aside and dealing with this. Now I'm walking, now I'm, you know, taking care of the baby because the baby pooped or something, you know. Being a mother is great practice. And being a father is great practice. But you can still only do one thing at a time. Sometimes you're cooking and holding the baby and talking on the telephone.

[49:45]

But that could be just doing one thing. When this ordinary mind and this ordinary mind, or when this ordinary mind and this ordinary mind are the same, that's called enlightenment. So it's like an equation of zero on the bottom, you know, you have a one and you have zero on the bottom, that's constant ordinary mind.

[50:49]

And then you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 on the top of the line. That's usual ordinary mind, or ordinary mind of circumstances. But these are not two different things, although we tend to separate them. And when we separate them, we say, I'm confused, I'm lost. But when they're together, like a box and its lid, put together like a box in its lid, as Minister Sekito says, then it's just ordinary. Then there is no idle chatter. No useless things in your mind. So, that's one with many facets.

[51:55]

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