I'd like to introduce Les Kay, who's abbot of Kanando down in Mountain View. Les was part of the Haiku Zendo years ago down there in Los Altos, which is where the lectures of Suzuki Roshi were recorded and later put into the book Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Thank you very much for coming today. Thank you for inviting me. It's a privilege to be here. It's an honor to be here, actually. Berkeley Zen Center is now venerable. This practice is still so new in this country, but yet the Zen Center has been established here for so many years and is now kind of like an anchor foundation, a rock for establishment of practice in this country.

[01:27]

things can grow very nicely on the foundation that you've established here. And just quietly being here in this very quiet neighborhood, nationally known, internationally known, very venerable, and it is really a privilege to back here again. I don't come very often. It's an honor, thank you. What I would like to speak about today comes from a small discussion that I had with a new student a few weeks ago, someone who is fairly new to this practice, although she has done other kinds of meditation practice in the past.

[02:41]

She wanted to try Zen practice. She said, what should I do with my eyes? What she meant was that, what she said was that, she was instructed that the way we sit, we let our eyes stay open. Why don't we leave the eyes open? She says, well, I find that kind of distracting. In other practices that I did, we kept the eyes closed. She said, that's very comfortable, it's very quiet, and it's very peaceful, and it provides a kind of security, and I found it much easier to control my mind. So, why do we keep the eyes open? Why do you keep the eyes open in this practice? Can't I keep them closed? And she was correct.

[03:48]

When we close our eyes, it is a peaceful feeling. We do find some rest. We know that when things get a little stressful for us, to close the eyes for a moment is a very nice feeling. The darkness brings comfort and rest and some peace. We in fact expect in the evening, at night, things will quiet down and we can find a comfortable place away from the stress, excitement and the distractions of everyday life. The distractions then appear during the day and in the light. So we look forward to the darkness for some peace and comfort. keep our eyes open. Because the distractions don't come from the eyes.

[04:58]

Distractions come from the mind, not the eyes. So our practice is to discover in the midst of distractions. So we don't eliminate the distractions that will appear in our mind. So we find our way in the midst of distractions We just let them come. We let them appear. And we learn how to let them go. So, to want to eliminate them before we make our effort in Zazen is misunderstanding.

[06:14]

make our best effort in our practice to find, to discover the inherent peace that's already there. Before there are distractions, inherent peace is there, so that's our practice is to discover that, express that. So what we do with our eyes is just what we do with our mind. We let it be open. and just let things go. In other words, we don't attach to images that appear in our mind or in our eyes or in our ears. Wherever distractions come from, So we encourage to keep the eyes open. When we keep our eyes open, it means we stay in the world.

[07:32]

We're staying in the world. If we close our eyes, we are trying to step back, step out of the world. But our practice is to stay here, stay in the world. Because there is no other world. So we stay in the world. We stay in the world. We are in the world and the world is in us. We are the world and we let the world be us. With our eyes closed, there will be, we separate from the world.

[08:56]

But with eyes open, we can see the world. We can see Buddha. And it is people who just look at the world. When we are separated, we are people looking at the world. With eyes fully open, then Buddha sees the world. Buddha sees the world when there is no separation. So our practice is to Let Buddha see the world. Let the world see Buddha.

[10:05]

So we keep our eyes open. We say that in this practice we face the wall. that we turn our body and our face towards the wall. But it is people who look at the wall. For Buddha, for Buddhas, there is no wall. Buddhas see the world. When we are turned around, and practice, it is Buddha seeing the world. And especially when we sit together, many of us sit together just like this, this morning, we can really feel, really feel that spirit.

[11:16]

We often hear people say after Zazen with others, there's a really good feeling When we sit together, I can't say why, but it feels good. People say that quite a bit, and it's because of this. When we sit together, turning our face outward, we are Buddha's eyes together, and we see the world, and the world can see us. can only happen with eyes open. But if we keep our eyes closed, then we can't see the world, we can't be in the world, and the world can't be in us.

[12:27]

our eyes closed, then our ears will be closed. Even though we don't have a, you say eyelid, we don't have an ear lid, ear flap. If we keep our eyes closed, the ears will be closed too, and we can't hear the world, and it can't be in it. The world cannot be in us. And if we keep our eyes Again, the world cannot enter us and we cannot enter the world. Eyes closed or ears closed or nose closed, then our mind is closed. We cannot enter the world, the world cannot enter us. And we really feel a separation.

[13:35]

We really feel separate from the world and from each other. That is when our life becomes a kind of slave to our emotions and personal desires. We feel separate. all because of desire for a small personal comfort. We take care of our eyes and our mind and our ears and our nose by keeping our awareness on our breath.

[14:58]

And that begins with taking care of our posture. So we keep a straight back, head erect, away from the sides and resting comfortably but with some energy. We take care of all the elements of our posture. Then the breath can flow very easily. Unrestricted breath can come easily in and out and we are not separated from the world. then our mind and ears and eyes will naturally want to be open. So we emphasize posture.

[16:01]

can seem a little difficult, uncomfortable. Sometimes it can feel like it's an ascetic practice. But it's not an ascetic practice, even though it may seem so at times. In fact, We may even encounter comfort in our practice. You might even experience that sometimes. Sometimes we're comfortable, sometimes we're not so comfortable. But it doesn't make a difference. We don't emphasize best with whatever we experience. Sometimes we have to experiment with posture, sometimes we sit in a chair, we do trial and error to find the best way for us.

[17:30]

But we don't emphasize, we try not to overemphasize some small comfort. This is a So if we keep our eyes closed, or we keep our mind closed, ears closed, we may find some physical or emotional comfort. But we can't live our life with our eyes closed.

[18:33]

So our practice is to stay open and to discover our true comfort. We have to discover our true comfort, not just temporary comfort that We can share it. That is something we can really share with each other. So that's the important point. To discover true comfort. It can only happen when we are fully engaged with the world, not separated.

[19:45]

So we encourage each other to keep the mind open, and the ears open, and the eyes open. in our practice, we should avoid, we have to be careful of sacrificing the expression of our true nature for a small comfort.

[20:49]

The desire for a small comfort will only lead to a bigger desire. Then we are caught. Then we are trapped. So we start with not giving up our true self for some small desire or some small comfort. When we start there, start with the small things, it's easier. to look at the big things. Sometimes people will come to practice because of a very, very big concern, and they hope that this practice will turn their life around or fix this big problem.

[22:22]

and keep your eyes open. Now I have this big problem. But if we don't learn to take care of the very small things, we can't take care of the very big ones. By learning how to take care of our question about our eyes or our mind is a little bit distracted. If we don't know how to look at that, then we don't know how to look at some big thing. So we start very small, very simply. Which means, if we have a big concern, it means we have to have faith in the practice. We have to trust it. We have to trust everyone else who has already been practicing. Sometimes new people will try Zazen a few times and then leave because it's not looking at the big thing and it seems too slow.

[23:40]

So they run away because their concern is so big. So it's up to, when we have some experience with practicing, we feel this is the right way, it's up to us to be helpful and encourage people who haven't experienced that yet, who feel they need something quick. By taking care, we have to let them know that by taking care of small things first, breath, eyes, mind, By taking care of those small things, we're already taking care of the big things. Just taking care in the small way we are, finding our inherent true comfort.

[24:44]

Just sit and experience it. So keeping our eyes and our ears and nose and mind open, we will discover our true comfort, because we will be fully engaged in the world, not limiting our sight sounds. We're not attaching to things that come, but we are always ready for whatever comes. We don't let the eyes or the ears or the mind attach to any distractions.

[25:58]

So everything is fully functioning and always ready. Then we can find true comfort, true expression of ourself. Zazen is a perfect expression of We are open to the world so it can enter us. We are open to whatever comes. We are ready to take care of it. And we are open to each other. We are ready. joyfully ready to take care of each other, whatever appears.

[27:16]

All of this came from a short discussion a couple of weeks ago. Does anybody have a question? Yes. Yes, I was wondering for someone who is blind, who cannot see, what does it matter whether their eyes are open or shut? Yes. What do you advise for someone whose eyes don't function? They do the best they can with whatever they have. The point of all this is the attitude. Concern about should I close my eyes has to do with desire for comfort. Concern for the eyes is not a concern for someone who cannot see. They may have a different concern.

[28:30]

It's our attitude that we're watching. and not so much the function of our senses. So her concern with her eyes was just her koan, her teacher, her way to find out about how her mind is working. The same with someone whose legs, who's disabled in their legs and cannot sit this way, wheelchair. We just do the best we can with whatever we have. I've heard it said in Zen that we learn to take the backward step, and I'm wondering how that relates to not sort of closing ourself off to the world, to actually remain in the world and awake, and also what appears to be I think this backward step lets us see things in a wide sense.

[29:59]

If we don't know how to do that, see the big picture, then we get too caught up in the excitement of the moment. Sometimes we must close our eyes in order to regain some balance or calm ourselves. But it's just a temporary thing. It does not have to do with our fundamental attitude towards how we want to be authentic in the world. Zazen is taking a step back. Taking a step back is letting things appear in their full dimension. Letting our mind have a wide view as possible.

[31:05]

This is Zazen and this is what's meant by taking a step back. When we take a step back, we understand how to take a step forward and how to go into the world. So I think our practice is actually this backward step. It doesn't mean we retreat.

[32:09]

It means we are learning how to go ahead. I find that when I… though I keep my eyes open, they can sometimes be fuzzy and I'm not seeing fully. Same with my ears. My ears are open but the sounds can be muffled because I'm not fully hearing. How does that balance work? Well, the best thing is to come back to the breath. We pay attention to our breathing and feel the texture of our breath.

[33:13]

Feel the texture of the world entering us, us entering the world. When we keep our awareness on our breath, we don't have any problem with our eyes. No problem. Awareness of the breath is the best way for the mind to be open and still. I was wondering if you could give us an example of your experience with the personal small desire to exhaust and how you interact with it.

[34:28]

A very common one that probably everyone has experienced is when the leg falls asleep or the knee becomes painful or something like that, the desire to want to stand up or take a comfortable posture. My own experience has taught me that the mind, my mind, does not have to have the pain that is in my leg. My leg may have pain, but my mind does not have to have pain. So, simply to have the mind return to awareness of the breath, let the pain be, let the knee have the pain. We don't ignore the pain, it's there, but we just don't let our mind become painful, because the knee is painful.

[36:06]

That is, the mind is painful because it desires comfort in the knee. So if the mind gives up desire for comfort there, find true comfort, just return to the breath, let the pain be where it is, then the mind can give up pain. So this is what we're practicing. This is not an ascetic practice that teaches us how to overcome pain. Our practice is to let go of desire, not be caught by desire. We honor it and leave it alone.

[37:19]

We don't engage it. Just, oh, you're painful. I see. OK. Yes. I think if I understand Sojin Sensei makes a distinction between pain and suffering. And if I think, if I correctly understands distinction, I believe it's what you were just referring to as pain in the mind. Yes. You have a pain or a discomfort somewhere, but you needn't suffer in your mind over it if you don't get caught in the desire to do something that will alter that. So that's very useful to think of that, the source of suffering as some desire to make some change or alteration in your situation. If you let go of that desire, then the suffering evaporates and that's comfort.

[38:24]

Another kind of comfort becomes positive for you. Yes. And when that happens, then we simply take care of the difficulty. We have confidence that we can take care of it. We don't concern ourselves about our suffering, we just let the mind be clear and we say, I can take care of that. It's just some problem, I can take care of that. When we have that kind of true comfort, it's the same thing as confidence. I found that interesting because it's hard to interpret sometimes the feeling one has in the midst of all the emotions.

[39:45]

Can you draw that out just a little bit? I'm not sure that I can draw a clear distinction, but what I can say is that if we come from Zazen and we say, oh, I felt very good. There is some emotion in that. We feel very good. There's a feeling of joy and togetherness. There is some emotion. we have to avoid is trying to hold on to that feeling and to expect, next time I go to Zazen, I'll have that feeling again.

[41:03]

Then it becomes more like emotion. Maybe next time we won't feel that way. Yesterday, today I had this nice feeling. Tomorrow, new day, So emotion, in that sense, is pleasure. Yes, I'm glad you brought this up. It's good to look at this. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that the feeling is temporary, it is now, and we enjoy it.

[42:05]

Or maybe it's the kind that we don't enjoy, but it's just now. Tomorrow is new. Whereas if tomorrow we're still clinging to what we felt Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, each of us have to make that decision. And it's always a cause of concern.

[43:09]

We never know if we've crossed the line or are we approaching the line. There's always the fear that it hurts so much, maybe I'm making permanent damage. We never know exactly. So we just have to experiment and trial and error. Sometimes try to take a break from the posture that's giving us the pain and sit in a more easy posture for a while. Go back and forth and experiment. I went to Tassajara the first time in 1971 and sat Tengharyo. It was just awful. Awful on my knees. Just awful. I ran around and spoke to everybody about it.

[44:15]

I was quite frantic. I couldn't walk, I couldn't work. I was very distracted. I went to see Katagiri Roshi. I went to see him. He threw me out. He said, just get out. And I spoke to somebody, and she said, oh sure, that happens to everybody. It'll take about a year to clear up. I was absolutely devastated. Absolutely devastated. Couldn't wait for the hot bath every night. But it went away. It went away. But that's my situation. I thought I was permanently damaging my knees, but I didn't. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take care of yourself in your own way. I was at Tassajaras, I couldn't run away.

[45:16]

It's probably a very good thing. It's a good question. Each of us has to We have to find that out for ourself. And going to a doctor is okay, you know. If it seems really that something's happening. Yes. In my experience, in order to get to a place where I can let go of the desire to end pain, I need to acknowledge But that problem of faith, I think, I don't think it just applies to the beginner.

[46:44]

What if you could say something? That's why we have Sangha. So we always encourage each other and we let ourselves be encouraged by each other. Because there are times when we may feel very good, but that faith today takes a big dip. of community and Sangha. That's what you have been doing here for 30 years? More or less. 25. That's a long time. Three treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Sangha is very important to help each other and help people. When we trust the Sangha, that's where faith comes from.

[47:51]

That's one of the places where faith comes from. So we always keep good relations with each other, warm feelings. Have announcements or anything like that? After we leave, yes.

[48:27]

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