Thank you, Peter. Good morning. This sounds okay. I've never used this microphone before. Seems okay. Okay, well, today we're doing a one-day sitting. And this is a Saturday lecture. So welcome to all of you who are coming for the lecture. And very nice sitting with all of you who we're sitting together today. There's some new people and some old friends among us today. And I'm going to talk about, I've been studying Dogen's Ascension. So I thought it might be appropriate to speak about it today, given that it's Sashin.

[01:30]

And Ascension is the, is the fascicle of Dogen. So he has two main, the Fukun Satsangi, which is like two pages long, and it's just how he instructs us about how to sit, the posture to take, and so on. And the Satsen Chin is where he tells us what is the point of Satsen, what are we doing here. It's not why we're doing it, but it's how we're doing it. And we're doing what? What are we doing? And it's a pretty warm day today. It feels like East Coast weather or Buenos Aires. Very humid and hot and sticky and sweaty. I have to keep hydrated.

[02:35]

Okay, so this, it's from the Shobo Gensei. Dogen is, for those of you who don't know, is the founder of the Soto school in Japan. And so this is from book 12, and it has various translations. But the one I am using for the title is The Point of Zazen. sometimes called needle point, which kind of makes sense with sashin, sometimes feels like we've got needles in our body as we sit. And of course, there's Nagarjuna's needle, which is kind of the needle of wisdom or insight, piercing insight. So practicing with body and mind, which is what we do, and with each other.

[03:52]

The translations I'm using are by Hee Jin Kim, who's a Dogon scholar of Korean origin. And he has a couple of very good books on Dogon. And then the translation of Carl Pronounce Blitfield, Blitfield, Billfield, Billfield. And then also a translation of Tanahashi. And they all kind of give you different, the different translations they choose give you a kind of different meaning, perspective on the text. So they're useful. It's useful in that way sometimes to read several translations. So in the introduction, he starts, once when the great master of Yueshan, sometimes it's called Yaoshan, and the Japanese name is Yakusan Iken,

[05:01]

When this teacher was sitting in meditation, a monk asked him, what are you thinking of sitting there so fixedly? Fixedly is also one of the translations. The other translations that are used are steadfast sitting or the resolute state. or in mobile sitting, since we don't, we say not to move in Zazen, although at some point people move, but the intention is not to move. And Sojin has qualified that further saying intention, not moving means don't uncross your legs. But in fact, we're always readjusting our posture.

[06:04]

So it's not movement, but within that not moving, there's a movement, there's a flow. Also, this is part of what he's going to tell us about. So what are you thinking of? So in this case, he asked him, what are you thinking? He assumes that he's thinking something. He could have said, what are you doing? In fact, the next koan, there's two main koans, Chinese koans, that Dogen comments on. This is the first one. And the next one, the monk asks, what are you doing? This one, he says, what are you thinking? Since it's inevitable that thinking will take place, because thinking is always flowing. The mind is a turret, is a stream of consciousness.

[07:11]

Although it's not just thinking, also thinking, sensations in the body, feelings of various kinds. But thinking seems to, the question of thinking, well, let me read the whole thing before I start saying more. The master answered, I'm thinking of not thinking. Right, so he caught him with that one. He said, well, are you thinking or are you not thinking? Are you supposed to be not thinking? What are you thinking? So he said, I'm thinking of not thinking. So then the monk asked, how do you think of not thinking? And the master answered, non-thinking. So non-thinking and not thinking are two different types of negation. One appears to deny something and the other includes something positive in the negation.

[08:19]

So this question of thinking and not thinking is like the old question of the thought of enlightenment. You know, because in Buddhism there's a lot of stress made on, especially in the sutras, on the thought of arising, arousing, the great Bodhisattvas arouse the thought of enlightenment. What is that? Is that the idea of getting enlightened? That's not it either. So that's like thinking and not thinking. So we could say non-thinking is the thought of enlightenment. That would be a koan. Or you could say thinking about enlightenment is the thought of delusion. Because there's non-duality between delusion and enlightenment. Thinking, not thinking, non-thinking. It's also how the Heart Sutra plays on the question of attainment and non-attainment.

[09:34]

So when you don't seek attainment, then you attain. But if you try to attain by not seeking attainment, that's not it either. That would be an old fox trick. So in other ways, think about acquiring enlightenment, acquiring mind, gaining mind, and beginner's mind on the other side. But these are not two. They're not one, not two. So this question of thinking and not thinking also refers to the old question of what is meditation? In the West, meditation is thinking, like Cartesian meditations. I think, therefore I am. That's thinking.

[10:37]

So meditation in the West usually means reflection, thinking, contemplation perhaps. Contemplation has a little bit of non-thinking in it. But in the East, meditation is more associated with non-thinking. Except that this refers also to the old debate because Dogen says, tell me if my voice drops too low and you can't hear me, just say louder, please. Dogen says Zazen is not concentration practice. It's not mindfulness exactly. depending on how we understand mindfulness. If we understand mindfulness as concentration, then zazen is not mindfulness.

[11:41]

If we think of mindfulness as including everything or in gathering, gathering the mind in some way, then that includes thinking and not thinking and not thinking. So then that's mindfulness in the Zen sense. So this is something that the sixth ancestor in China, Wining, also said, you know, don't try to sit and keep your mind blank. So Zazen is also not trying to keep your mind blank, because that would be a kind of not thinking in that sense, a kind of defense against thinking or a denial of thinking. And then you create conflict because the brain is just generating these thoughts and then you're putting pressure against them.

[12:48]

And then it just creates a kind of tension. And so the energy in the body-mind doesn't flow so well. On the other hand, if you just let thinking, if you feed thinking, then you're just thinking. Where's the non-thinking? So usually, the way that Sojin has always instructed us is that thinking in Zazen, what it means from the point of view of non-thinking, is thinking of the breast. The breast. Interesting slip. What can I do? I'm an analyst, you know, so. Mama. the source.

[13:55]

Okay. There we go. Actually, there is something mentioned about the breast here, but further on. So the breath, I guess it's primal as it gets, right? Because if you're alive, you're breathing. If you're not breathing, you're dead. So it's the, the breath is the inanvital, you know, vitality. And so, so we, we focus our, our attention on breathing, but breathing within the body, focusing attention in the body, but not as an object, but within the body, And then that becomes the container for mind. As the thought flows, as our karma flows in our thinking, we contain it in the practice of Big Mind or Samadhi.

[15:12]

So trying to keep the mind clear is like the other koan, which is also featured in the Platform Sutra, the story of Winning, which is there's two students and one says the practices to the mind is like a mirror and dust is like thinking. and you just have to be constantly cleaning the mirror. And that's the practice of Zazen. Which sounds kind of right, but that's dual Zen, but it's unnecessary. Dual Zen is also necessary, but the more fundamental understanding is that the mind is no mind. The true mind is no mind. True mirror is no mirror. And so if there is no mirror, where can the dust fall on?

[16:20]

There's no place for the dust to alight. So the mirror is empty, the dust is empty. So thinking itself is emptiness. So we don't create duality with our thinking. Okay, so the text continues, verifying that such are the words of the great teacher. I'd rather use the word teacher than master, because master in the West has a different meaning. Although sometimes people say, well, there's masters and then there's teachers. They're not the same. Is it a question of words or is it a question of being? So verifying that such are the words of the great teacher, we should study steadfast, fixed, immobile sitting.

[17:28]

We should participate in the correct transmission of steadfast sitting. So it's how we sit steadfastly once we're sitting So we're actually fully engaged in the practice. And then there is, you know, maintaining the practice. Because the practice is ongoing. It's continuous. So that's another meaning of steadfast. Whatever your schedule is, that is your steadfast schedule. which will be different for everybody. The same with the posture, whatever posture you take, whether in a chair or sitting, half lotus, full lotus, whatever it may be, the equality in all the positions is this steadfast sitting. Now, Dogen, you know, he's from the Middle Ages, right? And he's more advanced than us in some ways, many ways perhaps.

[18:35]

Some ways he shows some of the cultural qualities of the Middle Ages, which is really a traditional culture as distinct from modernity. And some people say we're in post-modernity now. So he uses should a lot, should, should. You should do this, you should do that. And some, remember when I started sitting, some people back then would get really annoyed. And I would get annoyed with Sojourn too. They'd say, should, you should do this, and you should. Should, should, should, you know, the tyranny of the shoulds. Haven't you heard Fritz Perls, you know, at NSLM talking about the tyranny of the shoulds? And here you are with your tyranny of shoulds, you know. Should, should, should. So is it should or want? But want is desire, so that's also problematic for Buddhism because otherwise then you sit just when you feel like it.

[19:38]

And we don't sit only when we feel like it. So we get steadfast sitting means we sit whether we're in the mood for it or not. And we find ourselves there, whether we're in the mood for it or not. So that's the should. So what would be the better term that's neither should nor I'm in the mood for it, I want to. What if you don't want to? Maybe it's a deeper desire. It's a deeper desire beyond want, like and dislike or want or not want to. deeper desire or aspiration. Sounds better than should perhaps. So he says this is the investigation of steadfast sitting transmitted in the way of the Buddha.

[20:41]

Although he's not alone in thinking fixedly This thinking, fixing, sounds like compulsive thinking, you know. But fixation is definitely being fixated and not flowing and being resolute. He's not the only one who spoke of thinking in steadfast, immobile sitting. These words are singular. Think of not thinking. Thinking is the very skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Not thinking is the very skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. So either way, it's the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Either way, it's the body. So the body's thinking. So then the monk asked, how do you think of not thinking or how's thinking?

[21:49]

However, ancient not thinking is, still we're asked how to think it. Ancient not thinking is, that's a curious construction or translation. Ancient not thinking is. This is the practice of not thinking that the ancestors have bequeathed us. Still we're asked, well, how do we think? Indeed, while not thinking may be old, how do you think of not thinking? Is there not thinking in resolute sitting? Yes, there's the struggle against thoughts that we should let go of, both of the thoughts and the struggle against the thoughts. So, and then there's the thinking with the body, which means breathing, breathing with our hara,

[23:09]

with a stomach, keeping the back straight. That's important and it's important for me because I have a sedentary lifestyle. So I'm sitting in a chair quite a bit, whether I'm listening to patients or analysis or whether sitting on a chair, reading or writing on the computer. And so in order for the back not to hurt in Zazen, you have to keep it really straight. And if you keep it really straight, then the back is not a problem. But if you don't, at this age, I mean, when I was 25 or 23 or something, you know, it didn't hurt no matter what I did.

[24:13]

But at this age, if you're not careful, it hurts. So keeping the mind upright and the back upright is steadfast sitting. How can going beyond steadfast sitting not be understood? So now he's asked, how do we go beyond sitting? If we're not the sort of shallow fool, so here's Dogen's style, right? He starts calling people names and insulting people, you know, he's a nice guy. And if you're not that sort of shallow fool that despises what is near. So despises what is near is if you're a fool, if you despise your thinking mind. He didn't like those people that despised the thinking mind. Despises what is near.

[25:20]

We ought to have the thinking and ask about steadfast thinking. Now, Dogen's a little bit more of an intellectual, but he's not quite an intellectual either. because his writing cannot be just understood with thinking mind. But he was critical of the anti-thinking Zen. It's more common in the Rinzai tradition, the yelling and slapping and stomping and whatnot. So the master answered, non-thinking or beyond thinking, Although the employment of non-thinking is crystal clear, when we think of not thinking, we always use non-thinking. So it's non-discriminative thinking.

[26:25]

Non-thinking is non-discriminative thinking or discerning. And then there's discriminating. thinking, I like this or that, which we also experienced during Zazen, and that's the thinking that needs to be let go of, the discriminative thinking. So not thinking means non-discriminating, letting go of discrimination. And then when we let go of discrimination, then we have what the Buddha called in the Eightfold Noble Path, right thinking. So he says, there's someone in non-thinking, and this someone sustains us. In non-thinking, there's the who.

[27:28]

Who? And the who upholds the self. So this is the who of who are we, or who am I, is Buddha or Buddha awareness, which is not the ego. It's not the identity ego. It's the self of universal identity. we settle the self on the self. That's another way of defining Zazen. Although it is the self who sits in an immobile state, the self is not merely thinking, it presents itself as resolute sitting. Right? So this who or this self includes both thinking and not thinking and non-thinking. When sitting steadfast, how can resolute thinking think resolute sitting, or think of itself as an object?

[28:36]

So, we don't think of the self as an object. We don't think of thinking as an object. Because if we think of the self as an object, or of the body as an object, right, like thinking of our breath as separate from us, which would be if we thought, well, I have to breathe a focus of breathing because I'm supposed to be trying to get enlightened here. So then we are instrumentally using our breath for some ulterior purpose or motive. This would be thinking of oneself or the body as an object. Therefore, thinking sitting steadfast as an object of attainment, even if it's good attainments like peace and tranquility, is not the measure of the Buddha, is not the measure of the Dharma, not the measure of awakening, and not the measure of comprehension.

[29:43]

The single transmission of this sitting resolutely by Yueshan represents the 36th generation directly from the Buddha Shakyamuni. If we trace beyond Yueshan's 36 generations, there's the Buddha Shakyamuni, what was correctly transmitted was think not thinking. Recently, however, some careless students say, so there's the careless student, then he calls them stupid illiterates. And once you attain the state in which the breast is without concerns, I mean, no tension in our chest, I guess. That's the breast without concerns is no tension in our chest, holding our chest tight. Once you attain the state in which the breast is without concerns, the concentrated effort at seated meditation is peace and tranquility.

[31:00]

So that's what the careless students of the stupid literates say, that the concentrated effort at seated meditation is peace and tranquility. This view does not compare with that of the scholastics of the lesser vehicle. It is inferior even to the vehicle of men and gods. How could one who holds such a view be called a person who studies the Buddha Dharma? At present, there are many such practitioners in the land of the Great Sangha who hold those views. The decline of the ancestral path is truly lamentable. So he seems kind of extreme here and radical, right? But it's the radical teaching of a beginner's mind. We don't come, we just sit to sit. We don't come to sit in order to attain peace and tranquility, even though that's the advertisement that is given for meditation, right?

[32:04]

And often when our family members ask us, well, what are you doing? Why do you do that? If you give them, well, I'm thinking, not thinking, you know, it's like, what are you talking about? So you say, oh, I'm sitting in peace and tranquility. Oh, I can understand that. They can understand that, right? So that's the dual Buddhism. we see it to transform delusion into enlightenment, hatred into kindness, and so on and so forth, right? We hear that quite a bit as an expression of Buddhism, but Dogen is saying that's not even the, what does he say? It doesn't even compare with the lesser vehicle. So, It's even worse than the Hinayana teaching.

[33:05]

And it's a vehicle of men, of people, humans, would be to live by objectives. Your productive work usually is management by objectives, right? Objective one, objective two, objective three, objective four, and so on and so forth. That's the way of people. But that's the gaining mind. the mind of progress, of trying to achieve great things, build great monuments and buildings and so on, right? That's why Bodhidharma said there's no merit in building great temples for Buddhism. But what about the great cathedrals, you know, the great religious architecture? What about that? Well, that's the vehicle of people, but that's not the Buddhadharma.

[34:07]

And then the vehicle of God's, well, God is, vehicle of God is, oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? My friends all got Porsches. So that's usually prayer is petitionary prayer, right? Please help me with this suffering. Please heal this. Please, can I get this job? Can I get this boyfriend or girlfriend, whatever? Can I have a good life? Can you help me get a good life? And does that work or it doesn't work? research to find out whether, you know, that works or doesn't work. And there's lots of arguments on both sides whether it works or it doesn't work. But that's the vehicle of gods. It's not the Buddhadharma.

[35:14]

So according to Dogen, if that's what we did, then that would result in the inevitable decline of the ancestral path. Then he says, there's another type of person who says, to pursue the way in seated meditation is a function essential for those who have started practicing recently. Beginner's mind and the latter day student. But it is not necessarily the activity of the Buddhas and ancestors. Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen, whether in speech or silence, motion or rest, your body should be tranquil. Do not be concerned only with the practice of Zazen. On the other hand, if you think that Zazen practice is only for beginners, this is also mistaken. Many of the type calling itself a branch of the Linji, Rinzai lineage, are of this view. It is because they're deficient in transmitting the right life of the Buddhadharma and they speak thus.

[36:27]

So what he's saying there is that You know, the Rinzai school often criticizes the Soto school for being quietistic. It's a quietism, right? Oh, you're just trying to sit there all tranquil and quiet, trying to avoid anxiety, trying to avoid conflict. You know, what about the big shout? But he's, and the Soto school, criticizes the Rinzai school for trying to attain enlightenment. And so they're just trying to attain enlightenment. So Zazen is just for peace and tranquility, right? And they do it maybe at the beginning, but then later, it's more important to do koan practice, to sit thinking of a koan, because that's the path that leads to realization, as opposed to sitting thinking, not thinking, non-thinking, which is just, you know, trying to be peaceful.

[37:41]

So So Zotto, Dogen and the Zotto School says Zausen is the vehicle for beginners, middle, and advanced. So when you're advanced, you don't stop sitting like with the new students or like sitting like everybody else. We're all equal in Zazen. Just keep doing the same thing over and over again for long, very long periods of time. At some point we stop counting. So you have to go going beyond ongoing, so you stop counting how many sessions you've done or how many years you're practicing. But the other thing is that the point here too is that Zazen is not just sitting in Zazen.

[38:53]

Zazen, as we know, is the center of everyday life. Ordinary mind is the way. So all activities are Zazen. And you could say in that sense that sitting is also standing or lying down. Don't think that when you're sitting in sasen, you're only sitting and you're not lying down or standing up. So then he says, what is the beginner's mind? Okay, so here's Suzuki Roshi's teaching, right? Straight from Dogen. What is the beginner's mind? Where is there no beginner's mind? Or are there any who are not beginners? Where do we leave the beginner's mind? So Dogen has all the different ways of thinking about beginner's mind.

[40:07]

Then he says, be it known that for studying the way, the established means of investigation, is pursuing the way in seated meditation. The essential point of his standard is the understanding that there's a practice of a Buddha that does not seek to make a Buddha. The Buddha that doesn't seek to make a Buddha, that is a beginner's mind. The Buddha that seeks to become a Buddha interferes with the embodiment of Buddha. But then he'll say that that's also part of the practice, gaining mind is also in the mix there with beginner's mind. Since the practice of a Buddha is not to make a Buddha, it is the realization of the koan.

[41:12]

The embodied practicing Buddha does not seek to make a Buddha. When the traps and cages of words and concepts are broken, a seated Buddha does not interfere with making a Buddha. Thus, right now, you have the power to enter the realms of Buddha and enter the realms of demons throughout the ages. It's interesting, you know, entering the realms of Buddha, entering the realms of demons. So the demons here is like the gaming mind. And the demons are also found in the midst of Buddha. And in the midst of our mind, in the midst of our practice, we're entering the realms of Buddha, but we're also entering the realm of demons. So all the sources of conflict, usually,

[42:22]

in the Sangha are born out of this gaining mind and trying to, you know, discriminate and compare ourselves to one another, and then enter into various kinds of conflicts about things like that. And that's the realm of demons. But we're all demons. I mean, we're all deluded too. So Buddha, enlightenment, delusion, Buddha and demons are not one, not two. Then he says, going forward and backwards, you have the freedom to fill in ditches and trenches. I guess, you know, what does he mean by that, ditches and trenches? I guess ditches are the ones that, you know, you have around a palace to protect the castle.

[43:28]

And trenches is what people used to use to fight. So what is this freedom to fill in ditches and trenches? So this ditches and trenches of conflict that can be filled with the waters of samadhi and compassion. Because samadhi is ultimately compassion. It's not conditioned by anything. It just rises, springs forth spontaneously when the mind ground is cleared. of comparisons and gaining mind and jealousy, envy, all those emotions that are associated with delusion. Power struggles, ego, etc.

[44:37]

We're all familiar with that. And we can recognize ourselves in that, because that's what we have to practice with. So then he goes to the next case, which is the case of, so he says, when the chant master Daji of Yangtze, I think in Japanese this is Baso, and Chinese is Matsu, was studying with the chant master Dawi of Nanyu, which is Nangaku in Japanese, After intimately receiving the mind seal, he always practiced seated meditation. Once Nanyue, or Nangaku, went to Matsu and said, worthy one, what is your intention in doing Zazen? What are you seeking or figuring to do sitting there in meditation? Quietly ponder this question.

[45:40]

Was Nanyue asking if Matsu had the intention to go beyond Zazen? Is there seeking beyond Zazen? If he had an intention to seek outside of Zazen, or if he had no intention at all, one should not seek at all. Was not you asking what kind of intention emerges or seeking is realized while doing Zazen? Investigate this thoroughly. What kind of intention do we sit with? From loving the carved, engraved dragon, we should go on to love the real dragon. We should learn that both the carved and the real dragons have the ability to produce clouds and rain. Do not value what is far away, non-thinking, and do not despise it. Don't value non-thinking, don't despise non-thinking.

[46:44]

Become completely familiar with it. Do not despise what is near at hand, in other words, thinking, and do not value it. Become completely familiar, intimate with it. So completely familiar, intimate with thinking, with not thinking, with non-thinking, but not value it or despise it. Just be intimate with it. That's how we practice with our body and mind, with our thoughts, with our feelings, and with each other. We become intimate with each other. Not necessarily valuing or despising, because that's the comparing. That's the comparative mind. Then he says, do not make light off or a big deal of what you see with your eyes.

[47:44]

Do not make light or a big deal of what you hear with your ears. Rather, illuminate your eyes and ears. Matsu said, my intention is to become a Buddha. I'm figuring to make a Buddha. I seek to become a Buddha. So that's the mistake. But he's honest. That's what he's trying to do. That's what he thinks Buddhism is, is to become Buddha. That's the carved, engraved dragon. seeking to become Buddha, but it also has the ability to produce clouds and rain. So there's something to the seeking to become Buddha too, meaning that we come to practice with that kind of intention, but at some point that intention has to, or the object of the intention has to drop off.

[49:01]

That's part of dropping off body and mind. In Zazen it's dropping off this intention to become Buddha or become someone special, some special spiritual being or something like that. We should clarify and penetrate these words. What does he mean by saying, make become a Buddha? Is he saying make become a Buddha is to be made a Buddha by a foreign Buddha? A foreign Buddha. Suzuki Roshi was a foreign Buddha, but is he really foreign? So is Bodhidharma. Does this mean that however many ways there are to become Buddha, to be immersed in this intention to become Buddha is the intention to become Buddha?

[50:06]

Meaning to be immersed in this intention to become Buddha, maybe it's not so bad. That's the carved dragon. Or is the entanglement of the many ways to become Buddha, the entanglement of the intention to become Buddha? That's how we get entangled. Entanglement is something that is used both to designate clinging attachment, But it's also designated to talk about the entanglement of the lineage. The lineage is a kind of entanglement that has both the carved dragon and the real dragon. So sometimes the students and the teacher become entangled. And it takes two to tango.

[51:14]

So, and these are kind of the drama, you know, of the sangha. There's, I don't know, in Netflix, there's an Indian soap opera of the story of the Buddha, which is a real drama and all these entanglements, amazing entanglements, you know, because usually we just hear the just the very you know, very basic description of the history of the Buddha, you know, that his relationship with his father and the mother that died, and then Yasodhara, his wife, and his son Rahula, and how he left the palace, and The king didn't want him to go outside the palace, all this drama, right? But we don't hear the drama. And in this Indian series, they give you all the drama. It's very interesting to see all the entanglements. So, because, you know, I mean, the Buddha just human, right, just comes from a human family with all the dramas of human families.

[52:27]

And the Sangha also has the dramas of the human family. So this entanglement is used to designate these two sides of the carved dragon and the real dragon. And you're lifting the stick, huh? Is it time? Okay, we have to, I want to allow some room for questions. This is a long thing, it's about 10 pages long and we'd go on, I think it's probably good for a class, but I'll stop there and let you ask some questions or make some comments. Maybe five minutes, can we take? Yes. It's called Buddha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I am struggling to sit still and watching my thoughts go by and I suddenly realized that I'm not having

[53:28]

But where's the intention there? What would be the intentional thought? just sitting so you're just sitting okay but you still have to keep your back straight right you um you you are mindful of the thoughts that arise and you let them go right but we we do It's good to be mindful of what we're thinking about, because then we understand what's affecting us and where our karma is at stake. But then we let it go. So we have to continually be giving ourselves Zazen instruction during Zazen, and that's an intention. Well, the card dragon is still the real dragon.

[54:52]

Did you have a question? You were pointing at somebody? I did have a question. Does a teacher make a Buddha out of their student? Uh, no, no, not exactly. Um, um, even though the students sometimes, you know, likes to imitate the teacher. And that's seen as part of Zen training, you know, because the teacher often doesn't tell you a lot. And the student kind of follows the teacher around, you know, and imitates them. And that's how they learn some of the... That's like some of the priest craft is learned that way.

[55:54]

There's not much instruction. But there's also a problem with imitation, you know, because then you're trying to be somebody else. You're counting somebody else's money, as they say in Zen. So you have to be yourself. And then when the teacher is fully himself or herself and the student is fully himself or herself, then there's transmission from Buddha to Buddha. Is there a danger of the goal of the non-thinking mind to develop Mm-hmm. Well, you're still practicing even if you're not thinking or you're non-thinking. If you're non-thinking, you could also be thinking. But if you're not thinking, then in Zazen, That's the difference between, you know, how in yoga sometimes when you do yoga practice, they end up with a lying down position, kind of a position of relaxation.

[57:09]

So when you're lying down, you may not be thinking and actually the brainwaves are very similar to Zazen. but then you fall asleep when you're lying down. Whereas in zazen, you don't, I mean, sometimes you fall asleep too, but what keeps you up is the energy and the intensity of the posture. And that the body is telling the mind, you're awake, you're practicing. This is it. So you're filled with a fair amount of energy. So that's different than being lazy. Right, you have to make an effort to focus on the posture and give yourself Zazen instruction during the sitting. Right. The zero that's not the absence of something, but it's the presence of the inconceivable.

[58:19]

That's the zero that we talk about in Zen. It's not, you know, the absence of one or the absence of two or absence of three. What is in that absence? That's the koan. It is something. What is it? Back there. Yes. What. Okay, you've had enough of this talk already. Okay, so that is Jed speaking for us. And if you, I guess if you had another question or wanted to say something, then for some other time, we'll continue with Sachin now.

[59:22]

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