Morning. Be nice. Yesterday, I think it was, yeah, yesterday morning we had a discussion with the practice leaders, the senior students, about what is bhokasana and what is practice discussion and how do we understand it and how do we communicate that. to everybody.

[01:00]

So I thought I would say something about that today, but in order to get into that, I want to give us some background of what our practice is about. What is the main foundation of our practice? There are a number of things, but there are three very fundamental things that we should all be aware of. One, of course, is Shikantaza. I'll say what these three terms are in Japanese. Shikantaza, Shikantaza, of course, means zazen.

[02:03]

Zazen means just to sit. Shikantaza has that meaning, just sit in zazen. It has a broader meaning as well as a specific meaning. Thank you. Specifically it means zazen, and in a broader sense it means just doing totally and completely whatever you're doing in this moment, because each moment is discrete. In other words, there's only this moment. To realize that there is only this moment. which is cut off from before and cut off from after. This is zazen. And this moment includes before and after.

[03:11]

It includes timelessness. Because there is time, there is timelessness. And because there is timelessness, there is time. This is our understanding. So, Zazen is the fundamental practice of our body-mind without going through the process of thinking or discriminating. Just touching the fundamental without hindrance. San-chi-mon-po is a term that means, well, it corresponds in a way in our Western culture to psychotherapy or just therapy.

[04:18]

It means guidance. in the way, which includes dokusan, which is visiting the teacher for instruction and means study and dialogue and a relationship, an ongoing relationship with a mentor or a teacher. we don't use that term very much. That term was introduced by Tatsukami Roshu and I was his shuso at Tassahara. He used the term Sanshimonpo, which I'd never heard before, but that's the term that's used in Japan. And this is the other side, this is the the directive side of the teacher to the student, and it includes the relationship.

[05:31]

And then the do-shin means way-seeking mind. Do is the way, shin is the mind, or the heart. So do-shin, way-seeking mind, which means two things. It means arousing the mind of faith and arousing the mind of no gain, just doing something for the sake of itself. In other words, without expectation and without being attached to a result. So doshin, a way-seeking mind, is not going after something exactly, but you run after something until you realize that what you're running after is in the running.

[06:34]

So what you gain is what you do. You can only gain yourself, what you already have. So there's nothing to add and nothing to take away. So, you know, if you shake the tree in the fall, all the leaves fall off, and then you have the essence of the tree. So, in a sense, practice is shaking the tree, letting all that which is not necessary or which is a hindrance, fall off, and allowing the essence to stand out. So all three of these aspects of practice are really three aspects of the same thing. So, Today I want to talk about Sanchi Monpo.

[07:50]

I have a little list here that will help me. We have In a sense, the teacher, when you come to see the teacher, there's an aspect of therapy, but it's not psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is what we consider the Western style of therapy, which is to help a person adjust to society. That's not a definition, but if we want to compare the two, San Shimonpo and psychotherapy, this is one way to compare them, even though they overlap.

[08:57]

I think in modern psychotherapy, there's a lot of, for many psychotherapists, there is an element of San Shimonpo. I would say with Zen therapists, a lot of Zen students are therapists, and they have more the feeling of San Shimonpo than maybe an ordinary therapist. but ordinarily we want to help a person to adjust so they can fit into society and feel comfortable and manageable in society with family and so forth. But Sanchi Monpo is therapy to guide you in your practice. In other words, not to help you so much to find your way in society, but to empty your mind so that you can find your true self.

[10:16]

It has a different flavor, maybe, and a different goal, maybe, but it's not so much to help you, but to help you to help yourself by letting go of yourself. And of course these are not perfect definitions and we can always argue from one side or the other, but the distinction is that Sanchi Munpo is to help the student, the teacher helping the student to let go of their self-centeredness and ego. When we let go of our ego, our personal ego, then our true ego emerges.

[11:28]

So there's a difference between our personal ego and our true ego. Our true ego is like our true self, right? Ego is, in a sense, our self. So when we say self-centered, it means we're centered on our idea of ourself as separate. Of course, each one of us feels separate, but actually we're not separate, we're all interdependent with the universe. So our true ego is the universe, called universal ego. Big ego. let go of our big ego in order to allow our big ego to appear, to actually do the work. there's a term, Musho Toku, which means no gaining mind, letting go, no mind, no ego mind, which means you do something for the sake of itself.

[12:58]

In other words, we practice in order to practice. We practice for the sake of practice, not for the sake of self-improvement. So, in a sense, if we're too complacent, in other words, if we say, well, no gaining mind, not running after anything, then I become complacent, not doing anything, that's falling off to one side. And if we just want to keep pursuing something in order to gain something, that's the other side. So, to totally engage in what we're doing, in whatever you're doing, for the sake of what you're doing, is the Middle Way. In Buddhism, Middle Way has many different aspects.

[14:04]

But basically, it means finding the middle, finding the mean, so that you don't fall into one side or the other. And this is non-duality. And when you can do that perfectly, then there's no self. There's no self-centeredness. You're centered on Buddha. So I say Buddha-centric instead of self-centric. So, this is what we, our effort is to remain Buddha-centric, so that we don't fall into one side or the other. So, Dokusan is the teacher's interview, so to speak. the student comes to Dokusan and asks a question, or makes a statement, or whatever.

[15:06]

So, what do we do when we come to Dokusan? Sometimes people sign up for Dokusan, and then they sign up three weeks before their Dokusan. And then, maybe they come to dokasan, they bow, sit down, bow to each other, and then, you know, I signed up three weeks ago, but I can't remember why. It's very common. So then, what do we do? Or sometimes, the person will come in and say, you know, I really don't have a question. And then, I have to realize that, yes, you do have a question, but you don't know what it is. It's really good to say, I don't have a question, because it means that there's something covering your question. Everyone has a question. What's my question?

[16:09]

That's a good question. What is my question? So you have to dig down to bring up your question. So the teacher helps the student to dig down and bring up their question. And then maybe some little light talk will help to bring up the question. And then it becomes clear. So there are many things that people bring to focus on. Sometimes people just want to chat. That's okay. But the teacher has to be able to take the chat and point to the koan in the chat. What is your real koan? So you help... teacher helps the student to find what their real koan is. You can say, your koan is mu. You know, and they'll say, okay, move, move.

[17:12]

That's okay. But actually, each one of us has our own koan, more than one. And to find the koan that is your koan, which means that which, you know, sometimes people say, is Zen a religion or is Zen not a religion? That's a big question for many people, I think for everyone. So that's a kind of koan. Is it in religion or is it not religion? You could say it's the religion of no religion or the non-religion of religion. That's a kind of koan. What is it? So, to help the student recognize what they're really grappling with and what to focus on.

[18:27]

Because sometimes a person would just come in and say, well, you know, I'm having this problem in Zazen. And when they look at the posture and stuff like that, that's a really good question. And sometimes a person would say, well I've been reading this platform sutra, The Sixth Ancestor, and he says this and this, and I don't get it. That's a great question. So those kinds of questions we call dharma questions, which are really good. There's so many questions in dharma, if you actually study and think about it, that you can just, there's no end to good questions. There are also koans. I've been reading this koan and I ... let's explore this koan. Great, you know, a real Zen student wants to actually explore this koan. So, those are really good things. But there's also the personal stuff.

[19:29]

Most people have personal stuff. but how you turn the personal stuff into their koan, or help them to see what that is. And the way to help people to see what that is, is how am I approaching this through my ego? How else can I approach this, besides through my self-centeredness? That's the big thing. How do I approach anything? any problem without being self-centered or trying to gain something. So that's very fundamental. And so there has to be some trust between the teacher and the student. And this San-chi-mon-po focus on is an ongoing thing. It's not like you just come once and ask a question, or, you know, deal with it.

[20:33]

But there's a regularity to the dokasan, so that we're following a line, and we're creating a relationship of trust and progress in practice, so that you don't leave something vital that's not covered. or some question that you never ask. But what the teacher, the teacher's task is to set you up in a way that you deal with your own problem, because the teacher is not dealing with your problem. You understand that? You have to deal with your own problem. So when I have dhokasans with people, a lot of dhokasans, and I hear a lot of different things, I don't think about it when I'm not doing that. I don't carry it with me.

[21:35]

I don't carry people's questions with me, or their experience with me. I just leave and do something else, because it's the student's problem. The teacher is just there as a mirror, actually. to help students see themselves. If I worry about everybody, be awful. Not that I'm not concerned. I am concerned about everybody, and I'm concerned about a relationship and all that, but I'm not feeling responsible. So, in the past few years, as our members have become more ... we have a lot of members who have been here a long time and have levels of maturity, and after someone had been a shuso, which is the head monk for a practice period,

[22:46]

eventually they start, mostly they start offering practice instruction. And so practice instruction and dogasan are a little bit different, although they seem the same. The teacher actually has responsibility for the students, even though I just said something else. the practice leaders are more like supportive teachers, they support, I mean we listen to and offer guidance, it's practice instruction, listening to them, having a dialogue and offering, but it's different. responsible position, because the guidance one offers in Dogasan is more ongoing, and the relationship is different.

[23:53]

So to go to a practice leader for guidance is very good, I think, because it's like sharing a practice with each other, and sharing So I think I probably talked about this, but the question is like, when you come to see the teacher, what is the teacher's bottom line? In other words, what is it that the teacher is relying on when they speak to a student. What is that foundation?

[24:58]

Sometimes someone will come to the dokasan and just sit there, not say anything. And so the teacher and the student would just sit zazen together. And then they bow and the student leaves. No words are passed. That's pretty good. That's okay. That's kind of a kind of bottom line, in a way. Bottom line is like zero. And then there's a line, and then there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. So mostly what we're concerned with is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. But the bottom line for the teacher is zero. In other words, let's get down to that. So anything can come out of zero.

[26:10]

Any kind of guidance can come out of zero. if you're stuck on five or three or two, that's partiality. So there has to be strict non-partiality. And in order to see everything clearly, there has to be no partiality or no discrimination, but simply seeing what's going on from the point of view of zero. That has to be the bottom line, otherwise you can't deal with everything that comes your way. And this is what the teacher is imparting to the student. And it's all just Sazen. Oh, and then there's the teacher knowing their limitations.

[27:23]

The teacher also should know their limitations. In other words, excuse me, but I'm not a psychotherapist. I think you should bring this problem to a psychotherapist. Because my limitation is Sanjeevopo, not psychotherapy. I can help you, guide you on your path as a Zen student, but I can't deal with your mental problems." That's not my area, although sometimes, yes, because psychology is always present in any encounter, but you have to know how far you can go. We have psychotherapists in our Sangha who do practice discussion but they shouldn't be doing psychotherapy when they do that. So if you have a psychological problem, we don't let our psychotherapists deal with members' psychotherapy.

[28:29]

You have to go to somebody else. Because it creates a different kind of relationship. Psychotherapists have a different kind of relationship with their clients. where you only talk to the client when you're in psychotherapy. You don't say hello to them on the street or buy them dinner. I mean, that's posted. But the teacher has all kinds of different relationships with students. Sometimes you're the parent, sometimes you're the teacher, sometimes you're the student. It varies. And we see each other all the time. And we have different kinds of conversations, different kinds of relating, depending on the situation. And then there's the idea of, well, sometimes

[29:46]

a student will come in with a grievance against somebody and so whoever is doing the focus on or practice discussion should refer that person to the ear committee which will take care of issues like that because whenever someone tells you their grievance It always sounds like perfect. You're absolutely right. My God, how could that person do that to you? Except that there's another side, and you're only hearing one side, but it's so convincing. So you have to hear the other side, and that person will say, well, you know, blah blah blah, and you'll say, oh yeah, that's perfect. So, if you only listen to one side, it'll sound like that person's perfectly right, and they're being persecuted, blah, blah, blah.

[30:51]

So you should never try to handle something like that. Teachers should never try to handle something like that unless they're both sides are present and talking to each other. You really get in trouble that way. And this is why the teacher's bottom line is zero. No self-interest. and no interest in the person personally, I mean attachment to the person personally. You're interested in the person, of course, but not attached. So non-attachment is zero. No attachment, just seeing as clearly as possible with no discrimination and no preference. And so, the thing about the abbot doing dokasan is that the abbot, or the head teacher, carries the confidence of the lineage and the confidence of the community.

[32:07]

And hopefully that continues and it's what keeps the community alive. that kind of trust in that way, and then the avatara, a head teacher, allows the other mature members to do that as well, sharing that. So we have this wonderful, because we've been doing this for so long, to allow the mature members to share that with them, and then them sharing that with the community. So that trust is vital, and not perfect.

[33:18]

And we all make mistakes, but we forgive each other our mistakes, and go on. So we're all making mistakes, and we're not perfect. So that's part of our understanding, and part of our trust, actually, is that we can do that. So, do you have any questions? Way in the back, I see a hand, but I don't see a face. Oh yeah, hi. Thank you for your talk, and I think this is a very important issue in the Sangha. We all know how very, very difficult it is to let go of self. including teachers.

[34:25]

And along the lines of the limitation of teachers, how, what can you as a teacher, how do you deal with the situation that sometimes arises where a person offering practice discussion or focus on, has needs and unresolved issues and a self of their own that seeps into their interaction with the student. And sometimes it creates difficulties. Well, I think that the teacher should acknowledge what the problem is, if it's brought up.

[35:38]

We don't know what a problem is until it manifests in some way, that we know about it. And then we have to deal with that depending on what the situation is. we have checks and balances. So the Sangha has developed checks and balances in order to deal with those kinds of problems. But I think it's important for the teacher to acknowledge the problems. And for the Sangha to decide how that should be handled. We do have checks and balances. We have quite a few, actually. We have covered almost everything.

[36:40]

When you started DDC on Dwight Way, did you do practice No, when I started, Suzuki Yoshi asked me to find a place for the East Bay for him, and I was just the janitor, so to speak, I was the caretaker, and I opened Zen Dojo, but actually, because it was a kind of dual role, little by little. I just followed Srimad-Bhagavatam's practice. Well, yes, a little bit, that's right. So it took a long period of time, actually. I didn't start doing that. I mean, people ask you questions. If you're in the center of things, people start asking you questions, and people would say, well, will you be my teacher? And I always say, no.

[37:47]

But if I'm teaching you something, if you feel that I'm teaching you something, then I'm a teacher in that sense, but I would not accept somebody as a teacher. And as a matter of fact, I never do. I do, actually. But you know, my way of doing things is little by little. everything just kind of happens, right? I don't plan on doing something in a certain way, so things just, I just respond to the circumstances. And so that's the way the whole thing has grown up, is just responding to the circumstances. I didn't try to set myself up that way. And I didn't start teaching, I mean, formally, until I had done the transmission. And that kind of set me up to do that.

[38:56]

Earlier, because there is time, there is timelessness. Because there is time, there is timelessness? Yeah. Well, because, it's a good go on, but I'll explain it. I mean, up to a point. Time, we think of time as discontinuous. We think of time as being, in other words, moments of discrete time, one o'clock, two o'clock, now, then, yesterday, today, those are discrete moments of time, you know, this second, that second, and we can divide time into the tiniest segments, right? That's discrete moments of time, but at the same time, there is just this one moment which never changes, it's not discrete, it's continuous time.

[40:00]

So continuous time, because of continuous time we can have discontinuous time, and because of discontinuous time we have continuous time. I say because of, that sounds like the Diamond Sutra. like that. So, continuous time is just now. Every time you say now, it's just now, and now covers everything, but it's continuous and it's just one moment, or something like that. The explanation doesn't quite get it, but discontinuous time is increments of time, You know, continuous time is zero, discontinuous time is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. So, discontinuous time only exists because of continuous time, and continuous time exists as discontinuous time.

[41:07]

Well, just let go. In other words, you do it when you're sitting Zazen, but you don't know it. You can't go after it. You can't chase it. It's always there. It's like closer than hands and feet, so to speak. It's it. It's it. ice cream bar. But when I see the ice cream bar it always reminds me of fundamental reality. She has, she did a disease.

[42:36]

Letting go of her was her husband, or was forgiveness. And she's done many times. And she's going to use the same technique with the people, with me too. And then, I mean, it's someplace in me, I don't trust her. I went to the pre-conference last week on media, the truth media, and was shown how 9-11 It's an amazing video, and I thought, very expensive video, in case anybody wants to see. And so it's a big thing for me, because what we are choosing right now is not President of the United States. It's a global. And then Obama, the same thing. He's putting the question right in the middle. I will need to talk to the Iranian president to make a decision if I want to be pro-war First I want to say a little bit about politicians.

[43:43]

You have to get beyond the rhetoric to look at the person, because the rhetoric, so to speak, if that's the right word, is You want to collect as many people voting for you as possible, so you kind of cater to this side and then you cater to that side, and you play this game, which in some way reveals your purposes, but it also obfuscates them in some way, obscures them in some way. Then you wonder, well, are they on this side or are they on that side? If you just take a straight line, you're not going to make it. because Kustinich didn't make it, he has the straightest line, you know, he says, this is what I think and this is what I'll do and you know that. Of course he won't get elected. You have to play the politics.

[44:48]

Then the other thing I'm going to say is that when Bill Clinton was elected president, it was like this huge weight was taken off my shoulders, and I just felt like, it's spring! So, you know, whoever is ... nothing's going to be perfect. Whoever's late is not going to be perfect. It's not just the president, it's the president and it's the whole party that you're voting for. You're not just voting for a person because there's this big pyramid and that's the thing that you're voting for, this pyramid instead of that pyramid. Anyway, good luck. I think it doesn't matter if you vote for Obama and if you vote for Hillary Clinton, it doesn't make any difference, because you get this with one of them, you get this with the other one, but basically it'll be somewhat the same.

[45:58]

I'm going to take a drink of this water which you so kindly brought to me.

[46:03]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ