Women's Roles and Attitudes in the 21st Century

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you all so much
some good morning is so very intimate group we had
you know shows so we can have makes it a little bit more intimate and will lower so it's always wonderful to hear women chanting by themselves to whole different thing
so what what married one mary and i were talking about this we really are wanting this to be a day where we can have dharma dialogue among ourselves and we can explore
the cross currents that impact our practice as women in the twenty first century and i would say twenty first century
ah in in this particular practice environment
so i'll share something about my own experience as a woman and a feminist over twenty five years i've been practicing and and more recently as a priest and some concepts or issues that i've been working with
i'm not really
in the dialogue does that follows doesn't really have to do doesn't have to confine itself to my any issues that i raise so it really should be open to anything that anybody else that comes up for anybody else either as a result of what they hear or just because they've been stewing on it and wanted a place that was safe where they can act
chilly air some concerns or feelings that are particular to women's practiced so in the announcement we we posed to questions
to begin to consider the first one was how do we as women find an express our true selves standing tall and solid within a tradition that has been male dominant while at the same time appreciate the gifts of this tradition
and the second question was how to gender dynamics impact our relationships with our male teachers so those were kind of pope provocative questions and again
opportunity especially in the afternoon to more to go after those
in smaller die ads or triads whatever works
but keep those in the back of your mind ah when you're listening
so
when i first started thinking about this is interesting i started thinking about gray sheer and
and that's interesting to me because gracious and hasn't always been somebody i was considering a model for my practice
grace was tough really tough had a very different personality who i'm for i'm pretty tough to sometimes but
different different kind of personality than i did some time she could be kind of abrupt
and yet she was so sincere and so
ah you know so strong in her practice so dedicated and you know clearly her whole life was dedicated to establishing a solid practice and to help to share that practice and particularly among other women so i am
i went
a back to graces two books i mean to two things that gross grace wrote to kind of look at what was her thinking her thinking was in the twentieth century rather than the twenty first century i think it's a big it's it's interesting this this tremendous shift with which has been going on
in the last fifteen or twenty years just in general in terms of people
accepting differences and different ways so to me it's it's very interesting and so i had i went through her first book
zen women you know i remember when i came here i don't know if some of you did there were no women's books on the shelves now we have two shelves of women's books and graces was one of the first books that we all that we all read
called zen women beyond tea ladies iron maiden's and macho masters
that's kind of interesting the macho master thing that was kind of grace's edge
and the other book was followed not so long after that
it it's a book called receiving the marrow teachings on dogan by soto's and women priests
it followed you know discussions that really grace had started with a lot of those soto's and women priests and discussions that took place at various soto's and meetings were primarily there were men but the women began to decide to talk to each other separately
and one of the things they found when they started talking to each other separately was they had a lot to say they were they had done a lot of studying many of them had a very interesting things to say about the teaching but they hadn't ever express themselves very much except within maybe their own small tsongas
none of them had written had started writing and what hap so what happened after that was we have a whole hope you know we can't keep up with the number of women's books actually in the library anymore so there's been a whole kind of revolution in
in what things were like when gray started
so i just thought that was very interesting just to think about that
because and i'm going to say a lot more about that but one of the things that i was particularly interested in
i was

but was the idea of of
writing that grace did in the are receiving the marrow of in her analysis of
of duggan's a vassal which i had really
maybe heard before
but never really got
you know it a kind of went by may maybe lot you probably spent a lot of time studying but it just kind of went by me it's called at rye hi toh cuz we
and what that means is receiving the marrow
and i was particularly interested in what dogan had to say about the place of women
ah in zen practice
because we we had not spent a lot of time talking about it except we've talked about women ancestors but we hadn't talked about duggan's teaching so i was really quite interesting grace and grace grace
basically in her introduction to her book talked a lot about the contradictions between the basic t shirt teachings of non-duality and the essential buddha nature in all beings as taught by the buddha
and the way that informal buddhist practice in india and china and japan and korea basically ignored the teachings in creating the hierarchies so there was this basic teaching by the buddha buddha head women followers he believed that they were all valuable whether they were men or women clergy
he or men or women lay people he addressed them separate way he gave teachings to them he have he also was open to people who are had different sexual orientations he had people of those people in his saga and yet when the when the when the hierarchy started
they went back to the cultural basically the cultural norms in the society's wherever they happen to exist and in india was the hindu sect and so they ended up in order to fit in this happened with a lot of religions you know they kind of morphed depending upon what what culture they
find them in themselves in so you find it's like catholicism looks very african in africa it looks very anglo-saxon in the anglo-saxon countries they basically in order to fit in to not start a war to not get have their religion basically suppressed they adopt
did the cultural norms of the society and so
and so in most of those countries whether it was shintoism whether it was a confusion it is isn't whether whether it was whatever the whatever the the norm was when they got there with their buddhist teaching regardless of what the buddha said they basically they basically develop these hierarchies
so i thought that that was really interesting to me to think about it that way to think about where did it start you know and then how does how does one respond to it because the basic teachings speak to non-duality inequality
and women being being able to be whatever they wanted within these religious communities and yet that's not how it turned out
so
grace
grace started off in her looking at this
at first by being quite contentious she was always having fights with the mail males in the hierarchy and so she starts her book talking about an interaction she had with a male colleague
in which
the male colleague had come back from a soto in meeting and grace to asked how many women were there
and the man said we were all women
this wasn't something to say the grace
so
so she says you know she was stopped at that point she was kind of stopped she didn't quite know what to say in that particular instance you said it took twenty of my more than forty years of practice of zen practice to go beyond being intimidated by the oneness thing
and then she talked about grappling with how did he deal with that's how do you deal with this here are these guys who think that they are very open and accepting and yet that's not how it feels as if it did not feel that way to her when she tried to end
or practice
so i thought what she said i'm going to read what she said about how how she worked with it she said so she said

to understand that all is one is not enough
the one reveals itself through myriad unique formations even men and women why was it so difficult to talk about women in their places in my own questioning arose as a request for more information not on this is hard to believe actually not a complaint about unfairness but no matter how
carefully i posed the question about women and zens history my questions still somehow challenged my teachers personal authority and the teachings of the of buddhism if there were mistakes such as gender discrimination in the formation of the buddhist institution or if there were flaws in buddhism of our teacher in the in the buddha
the teachers what then was the basis of their teaching authority
understanding how volatile the questioning was becoming i felt i had to change the course of inquiry if i wanted to stay in the zen community i also felt that in order to pursue this topic i needed to make sure that i was not caught by my own self cleaning as a females and person
it was essential that i move beyond my personal wound my sorrow and anger about a long history of neglect and even worse a purposeful elimination of women from sense history my purpose shifted i stopped questioning what had gone wrong with buddhism and why women done teachers had been excluded from the
historical record instead i began to see my function in this current generation of zen teachers to be creating a conduit for these women's past practices to honor them and bring them forward i wanted to collect the teachings from r zen grandmothers and carry them to ours and granddaughters the women who were still on their way to
entering zen practice i still wanted to find my own practice in the twentieth century western woman and i wanted to help contemporaries in practice find it's way to more ballot balanced perspective
so the other thing i wanted to read of a little bit of so that was gracious finding her way and actually that was turned out to be very productive so from the grace who was angry and reactive came the came the grace who made lists
of women ancestors for us to chant during service and and really inspired another whole group of women to actually look and say that in fact they're worse and teachers than women teachers many and they had as some of them had a important places and history and it was worth looking at them
so the other thing that grace did that i thought was interesting was her using was her her review where her commentary on a duggan's fascicle right right hi toh cuz we
she dissects the fascicle of dogan teaching into seven arguments for the equality of women which basically state that when women become vastness
and accept that so when when women become bussiness and accept than the dharma
in their teaching
and when they when they teach wisdom when there is seen to teach wisdom the wisdom of the ancestors when their effectiveness of the when the effectiveness of their teaching is demonstrated by their male students i thought that was interesting
when mail when when the example set by women teachers throughout history
to become known when there was and and also the that the equality of awakening and awareness of women
is the same as the awareness and awakening of men
and also he talked about how previous teachings by men had distorted women's roles as a result of sculptural cultural stereotypes
so i just thought i'd just read a few of at excerpts from that facile
why are men special
emptiness emptiness for great elements are for great elements five scandals are five scandals women are just like that both men and women attain the way you should honor attainment of the way do not discriminate between men and women this is the most wondrous principle of the buddha way
yea
mrs another quote from that festival there was a foolish monk who made a vow never to look at a woman birth after birth world after world what was this foul based on the worldly method buddha dharma the outsiders method for the celestial demons method
what is the fault of women what is the virtue of men they are unwholesome men and there are unwholesome women hoping to hear dharma and leave and leave household does not depend on being female or male if you vow for a long time not to look at women do you leave out women when you've
wow to save numberless sentient beings if you do so you are not a bodhisattva how can you call it the buddhist compassion this is merely nonsense spoke spoken by a soaking drunks shrove aka
there is one ridiculous custom in japan this is called and only one
this is called secluded area
or a mahayana practice place where women are not allowed to enter this crooked custom has been going on for a long time and people do not think about it in the assembly of the buddha since his lifetime there are four types of disciples monks nuns lay women and lay men do
not look for a secluded area that is purer than the buddha assemblies that existed while the buddha was alive
so basically what
what grace did was kind of take the take the cover off of of the issue you know and look look at dogan are rtr founder what did he say about it and yet even though he said this stuff the cultural stereotypes of japan where
so strong and still are really
that that they the politics kind of took over
so
so what you know so how to sew had a wait you know how do we deal with that we have our own our own society which is a judeo christian society which the also hierarchical you know we have
oh
a lot of changes going on and they've gone on in the last twenty five years tremendous changes in the zen hierarchy many many more women in in in in the clergy many more women advices of zen centres a lot of changes
have happened
since since grace did her writing really
that we've all lived through some of us you know we all came those of us who came in it and know twenty five years ago or thirty years ago saw very few women in leadership positions and particularly
oh
the women that we did see a lot of them were not like us the people that you saw at tassajara many of them were single they were childless they had given up their whole life just like them women ancestors many of them had to do they had to give up everything to
prove that they were worthy know you somehow was okay for men to be married even even in the early days here
but it wasn't okay from it didn't seem okay i mean maybe they did or if they did they were marriages to other priests and they lived at the end they they still lived out of the world so the kind of models we saw they were some women but then over the last
very short time
really very short time right
yeah i mean really verein in history very short time really since since i first came here you know the role of women in the position of women and the women and women who hold positions of authority so-called authority thats really
you know changed tremendously and yet we still have our cultural stereotypes
and we still have to deal with them
yeah to say for context workers
well we see graces book came out
and

we're good
two thousand and nine
but her thinking her writing of the book took quite a few years so while some of the stuff in her writing really spoke to things that happened before but even in the last you know i started practicing i guess and nineteen eighty nine at green gulch
ah and
what i saw were primarily
oh you know men priests were in all of the positions of authority
and that were not a lot of women
role models if you will there was things were different here more different here
but not in other not very much and other practice centers
so it's very quick it's like watching the gay marriage thing you know it it just sort sort of some date one day it's changed
and and you didn't even
expect it necessarily but all of a sudden it was different but are we grew up with a certain mindset
and sometimes that mindset this is what i'm kind of wanted to talk about one of the other things that
for me was was really made a big difference was when i decided i didn't know if i wanted to be a priest and so i'd started this chicago priest training program
which grace and darlene cohen who is another woman's and priest and two men
i started and for me that kind of made a very huge difference both of these women were married had children
ah had lay careers grace was a psychologist i'm not sure if darlene i've ever had he was she did body work they were they were people who were out in the world they were not going up they had they had spent time in monasteries but they were they they actually war era that
why wear earrings today they actually wore earrings in fact i i'm not staying at home now or i would have had a scarf on in honor of darlene she always had a colorful scarf and she would she would actually have a colorful robes made for her had a red one and a blue word and you know
she they they will and grace came to the trainings with you know short little jumpers and tides and whatever and so they defied the stereotypes of what i my picture of those women who actually made it to be zen priests they were they were like these really dour people it's
i hate to say this at san francisco zen center to me has always been a varied because i didn't know the people there i knew people who they were very dour with they didn't make eye contact or smile
she gave a talk yesterday about making eye contact and smiling and how that's a zen problem know when do we do that when are we being set on whole when when we are we being unholy when we act to friendly that kind of thing so as very interesting so one of the one of the tools that scale
us
in in spot training this is really interesting know for those of you who know me i'm god i was a very iffy about grace over the years so it's kind of interesting a grace has taken over my psyche somehow
but that's that's part of what i wanted i want to talk about a little bit
so grace gave up gave us a kind of a framework grace you never would accuse grace of not standing tall and the practice nor would you accuse darlene of not standing tall in the practice they were when you know women we are women you know whether it would watch us roar they were
they were that way that was their modeled so wasn't like we have to be kind of reticent to express ourselves they were the models of people and any even the women here certainly wouldn't say that rebecca was before she became ill was reticent or or or or melee with
what was was shy about expressing her opinions so we had these women models and yet there was this
background of not speaking not asserting yourself and it was almost as if when people did there was something wrong with them
there was actually people actually felt like they were too aggressive
and so some people some other women didn't like it possibly even me
at different times so one of the models that
grace taught in the spot training was the model of
a psychological model
which talked about the the personal the realm of the personal where the intrapersonal the realm of the interpersonal and the realm of the transpersonal
so the personal equates to our habitual patterns personal patterns based on our own our own experience our gender identity or sexual preferences or race or culture
in short the role that the untrained formed kind of of the untruths formed consciousness is simpler words of our ego consciousness and are a storehouse consciousness that we are
that we are kind of become in with the the cut the kind of condition drone that we come in with how we see ourselves as individuals what our personal experience has been its color how we look at the world so that's the first room
so it's how we perceive reality
or how we've been conditioned to perceive reality so what were we come from we were some of our automatic responses come from
from our previous conditioning so those of a and and they're very hard to change especially if you've grown up in a certain kind of world with women having a certain position now there's a revolution you still have that old conditioning that's operating
the other was the realm of the interpersonal
which which it really represents our challenges and interacting with the world based on and and especially when we continue to see others as separate from ourselves the interpersonal world where we see others as separate and disconnected and
then the assumptions that that we have from our personal realm are projected onto these other people in our interpersonal work and then the transpersonal refers to the realm of the spiritual or in buddhism the absolute non dual realm where we experience the equality and and intricate
connectedness of everything else and so the and and
and so the question is how can we stay open to the realm of not knowing when we perceive or we think we perceive gender bias
so
i wanted to share a couple of a
personal experiences
ah

when one was a
related to less i guess it was last year's women's sushi where megan was the
a teacher
and
there were a lot of women at the sitting a couple of your know two years ago two years ago actually there was a women sitting and there were a lot of women there i think you were there actually who expressed a lot of pain about how women were treated
they were they gave examples they felt they weren't treated fairly they weren't seen
at bcc yeah
and then last year was interesting
because someone asked megan collins who was sitting in their seat how she perceived things had changed and bcc over the years
and she actually had a different take in her in what she had seen over the years was increasing acceptance of women at bcc and increasing roles for women at bcc all throughout the hierarchy at bcc
and some women
ios so there were so there was a she was talking about the change over time some women had perceived
what they felt was gender bias at bc same or had that they had been very heard from and then some of the younger people which included
included
ah some of the on people here
express that they were really surprised because they hadn't seen they hadn't in their experience they hadn't felt that
so there was this interesting thing for me about
our different experiences
depending upon our age and but depending upon our you know our own personal experience all all these people were part of this community so there were some people expressing hurt
and feeling that women were not seen or given responsibility there was a question about whether women of color were seeing and were well represented here that things might be different from them and then there was a a concern by some up or that then there was as an expression by some young people that they hadn't
really seen that at all that the their experience they felt fully welcome fully accepted they didn't say differences in rolls by that time in the last few years we've had me sometimes we've had equal numbers of men and women priests we've had it will not more women who will she sows so there has been
the years and people's experiences reflected in a way what would they were holding as their experiences of bc see
i'm
send some and somewhere you know some women last last time i also mentioned racial differences that we were not what they were concerned was with not gender differences that now they were raised there were maybe racial differences that we're keeping us a lily white saga and that those things were more important
then and that even within women women being insensitive to those differences with an issue would be bcc
so i just thought those those were kind of interesting to me
and they
because they because they came up basically at the women's issue at the women's machine and how and how things are or aren't here and how we see
how we see ourselves as evolving and how people who come who've been here for this many years see one thing some people who've been coming for a very long time have experiences it's better difference some of which were hurtful to them and then new people who come and say seems ok to me
you know so if it's interesting about the kind of the lens that you look at what's going on in terms of the reality of what's going on here
and and that was i saw something i guess in the last during this election cycle that was that was also really shocking to me and again kind of depending upon your generation so that so i look there are differences in our cultural backgrounds our politics
are you know all of our backer or sexual orientation we all are coming with all of this stuff and i think at first there was kind of a women versus men and i think you know what i see happening
it in and that we bring as part of what we bring from our personal experiences is a great deal of difference so it makes this whole women's issue quite different than it might have been ten years ago or fifteen years ago it's quite different it has a lot of
granularity women are not just women women have gender identity they have ethnic and racial identity they have age differences so and that the age difference thing really hit me because of the thing that went on just recently with madeleine albright and gloria steinem actually saw that
bill maher show where gloria steinem was on and i had to gag you know it was all of a sudden
gloria steinem was dissing young women for supporting bernie sanders and she actually imply that the reason young women were in favour of bernie bernie sanders was because the young men were
and that they wanted to they somehow there was a game that they would have from being with the other young men and they were be basically they will be train women
so i thought that was really interesting
because of just the the years i've been practicing and the kind of change that i've seen
in and how how how do we internalize that or not in other words from our internal experience of things when we look at ourselves and our responses how much of that comes from what's history that's no longer reality how do we take that
a generational thing that big change that's happened over the last twenty years and how do we how do we adjust or not you know how do we see when we have these responses
how do we see what's from
my life experience which is which has lots of pain and lots of my own stuff in it
versus younger people who have a very different experience
in their lives and and how do we not get into a thing like they did with basically disrespecting young people disregarding young people for not getting how hard it was to be a woman and how much you know how much prejudice there was about women
that to me as a really a a really kind of big issue and i started reflecting about i started reflecting where are we buy time well it's a eleven eighteen supposed to start with twelve minutes
okay well we'll try
because we're going to have a lot of time in the afternoon to talk about this stuff so you know from my own for my own
life it's been interesting for me too
to look at my attitudes and my experiences from my advanced stage of life now and how different it is how really different it is and how i have to keep on checking myself in terms of what's what's real now
now compared to what i kind of grew up with as a feminist responses that i had as a feminist my knee-jerk kinds of reactions
and i i realized that i had over the years if i look back had
had a kind of reactions to other women younger women
you know like like what like i like and the thing with gloria steinem and madeleine albright really shook me up because it really said oh wait i'm and you've gotta look at this stuff this is really deep stuff that can get in the way of women coming together when things that they need to come together on
and
and i rely i realized that recently i go been to the hospital for example when i started medical school there would be one woman out of one hundred in a medical school class
and when you got on the wards you were you are made fun of i mean i remember i remember being on our surgical ward and they they would pick one person to illustrate and examined name somebody made me do the genital exam on a on a man in front of all these other men standing around there was humiliation you are you
i had nobody to talk to really that was you know and that was a really different thing and i contrast to that was going to the hospital with my husband recently at at p m c and there was
a male nurse
a female medical student a female first year resident a females third year resident and a female fellow right and they were not dressed the way we would have dressed you know they had short skirts on high heels up you know it was this whole other revolut
ocean that's been happening in this country so that
so that my ideas you know and i've and i've been seeing this it's not like that was that that was the that was the thing that really impressed me recently but i've been seeing this kind of thing because i've worked with medical students for you know the last twenty years so i see the medical students coming and differ
lately every which shape and form you know and i was think the just last week i had to go in to teach some medical students physical exam and you know they were each of us had a number of people i had you know there were two men one was an african american man one was a white man there was a woman who was
was dressed in a very masculine way very short hair and you know male pants she was she was you know and then there was the other woman who had a short miniskirt on and high heels and so forth and i think well this is very different from twenty years ago when they were mostly white men and all
of a sudden there's been this revolution so that the thing the thing about it for me is
it's it is that there's just been this revolution and and change here too although maybe not as apparent here as it isn't some other places
that it's really important for us when we start talking about gender issues that we think about age issues we think about sexual orientation issues we think about racial and ethnic issues it's not all one thing and right now in this world
some of those other issues are bigger than the gender issues so how do we how do we as women actually
come together and accept each other for who we are
in our difference in our difference and how do we actually get you know okay what this was my experience how can younger people get what older people's experiences were and how can older people get what younger people's experiences where and how can we learn about our own are issues that are different
and certainly here you know we try and we have a lot of women and very visible positions now and yet we still there are still issues and how do we look at them in this kind of environment rather than the environment that we used to look at which was very simple men man woman
we see that richness of and the diversity within women and that that's a big issue for us in terms of our own dealing with each other and dealing with other people
we had us us something recently
that we talked about i think was i some younger people talking about the old biddy ease
at berkeley's said center some of us took it took some offense to
but what is that about what at what kind of work do we have to do among ourselves looking at some of the differences that we have
so
so i get i guess at what i wanted to really talk about was
you know we
we have a more complicated situation now than we did before it was very simple women's rights women's laws when there's discrimination now it's it's quite complicated how do we really accept each other as women with who we are with the def differences rather than talking about the say
sameness how do we how do we have the same and the different the sames and the differences how do we how do we have those so that we don't
you know have something like gloria steinem putting down young women for being free
free enough to pick a candidate without it having to be the woman know that's a freedom right
some of us feel like that might feel that from our experienced that's a betrayal so how do we how do we stay aware of those things in our practice and and in the way things run
so i think that that's really important the other the other thing which we might talk about more that this evening or this afternoon in are you know kind of small group discussion that i just that i wanted to mention is
we are talk about gender dynamics with with the mail with the with mail so i really spent a lot of time talking about dynamics among women because i think we have to get our own app together right before we
you know in order to
think about what is what is women's practice now how does it look different when we actually have positions of authority
you know then it becomes more complicated
what is what is it that we bring
what is it that we bring that's uniquely
from a woman's perspective
so
anyway i said so i just wanted to kind of sick bring that up because i think that that really is a big thing for me
being aware of that
especially working with young women a fair amount and kind of their lot their realities are different in how and and they're very real and they're not right or wrong their their realities their their experiences in life so how do we include
people whose life experience are different whether it's an ethnic or racial thing or a gender identification thing or whatever how do we actually open to that
in a more complicated way it means a little work and it means a little thing thinking and it means a little dialogue so the other thing i wanted to talk about safety and i will just introduce is just the issue because we talked about
is the issue of relationships with male teachers
and
and the male female dynamic simply observe and how we deal with them which i hope we can deal with you know this afternoon we have more time for dialogue and that that i mean several things
one is
that are still situations where i think women here experience kind of not being heard by men
and that's a really big issue and of course there were generational things to you know are the men we don't think care he listened to us or understand us are they older and therefore you know the generation would just as we have generally generational issues among ourselves they do to you know so
we have some issues that may be generational how to how do we deal with those generational issues and also hierarchical issues were a is in a in a in a higher position and how to waste and how do we how do we behave in a situation where there is a hierarchy and where we feel that are issues
as women
we are not heard are dismissed
are not seen
that's that's what i hope we can talk about a little bit in the afternoon and the other issue of course is
the issue of of which we may or may not get too but
and may not be as important as others but the issue of male female interactions that are
inappropriate and how do we as women look at those in the context of sanga life and how do we how do we handle those how do we as women stand up about these things how do we as women stand up about situations where we don't feel heard about our own
own
our own responses to what we feel this may be gender bias towards ourselves or gender stereotypes and how do we as women
look at ah inappropriate relationships and how do we handle those so i hope we can have that discussion in small group discussions layer on
so i don't know i know if we have any i think we should let people
issues have been raised
what can always short enough
is awesome
the time until eleven thirty seven ten minutes

our and twelve minutes from ticket

ah
for some reason our laughing
one of the first things that happen my favorite she laughed
sensor
there was the two women were put forth his people that you could have practice discussion
with exactly the kid pressing that
he was not that hair
just repressing so much
happy that there were like these ten things that have been like greenland
a
and that was one of them
to me coming
outside i i was always a feminist from high school and one thing i'm
there was this thing which i don't know was that one of the pit
things that i picked up by the mayor of feminism was this idea of the colonizing your mind
and there may have been internalized oppression the river but he was about how you and that was the thing to me that correspond with the most with dharma practice when i came to practice but how do you can
get your find out of yes your own line from from what
is going on the from a different place of your own mind that that's how change would happen if you're not like coming out
and so i mean it just always felt like there aren't as good if you are always doing that without an outsiders and center and insects etc when it came here you know really was the main disciple and the mail has some really retrograde ideas but he has dark transmitted so it's always been full of fiction at people and lot of will
been working so i mean for myself fortunately i mean that sounds terrible jerry to be only doctor at night
there's always been
then tried to do the same thing i'm trying
that just really i saw me that annexed and we're not going to bring the age so that was generated rational and situation
what you are you are because i hadn't they experienced the at that there's a there's a it happened very quickly he chose to do i mean it might have been it by write a high school like a medical school right now know that the women who came through ten years later had a completely different experience than
than we didn't count and him i had that experience in article
you we had we had three women who wanted to be doctors three out of a class of like three hundred and fifty of at a women's college and only one me went on to medical school and they were counseled not to they were counseled that it would interfere with their families and that they should be chemists instead if they like
science and that's sort of thing so it was it was a dramatic change and and you know it
the long through the unbelievable change and that's still happening that's still happening or yeah well we reflect what's going on outside
yeah
sizzling
absolutely
the
whatever
organizations in
watching
in the same time she was a out the balance that was
skirt and to one he'll be here
isn't
right so i mean she's really example who think when he said it's interesting as you say your yeah your nose
here he said you were there and like the i miss it
and several women spoke up new yeah
he was now but i do it i started thinking about oh yeah but i it started with one person and it was a very painful as being said she talked about it just a candidate seems domino effect and seven expresses some
right so yeah if i ever identified several as
the here stefan
and it wasn't necessarily the best
yeah was one person levels a personal interaction with the please
here the other things that people share with this yeah just been pinged other pinged other things
which we've all
one then there's the issue of discerning right because it's your lens that you're looking through is this because i'm a woman is this coming at me because i'm a woman or is this coming at me because of a hierarchical order some his personality you know or or whatever you know which
which we which which for a while you know people were just need jerking it must be because i'm a woman and i think were at the point now where were saying some people are you know unskillful in their communication some people are hierarchical in the way they look at the world
is it really is that it is is this a woman's issue or not you know to discern that rather than just automatically if a man says something stupid assuming it's because you know that there's a gender bias because it may be and i think now we kind of reflect internally a little bit
get at least i do as to whether or not is this really just somebody who's unskillful
in communication or is this somebody who really isn't unaware that they actually have a you know a power or gender bias going on and if so how do i deal with it
and that's kind of where where i think that's the skilled that we have to that we require now because not every you know we can't assume there was a time when we assumed than any time a man said something as unskillful and stupid we would just you know put it up and a sexist yeah
i noticed the age divide and technological
a
create for me
the martha and i think there's an energy by
connected
and i don't have nearly half the weapons if it doesn't upset me so much i'm just not gonna fight about something comes up it's unskillful or being here to men as eighty seven years old talk about old white guys sniffing inappropriate
system suggests by you know gonna let it go i night
his father to educate train educate if overnight
hi
get great around here we want to play together yeah i mean i think for me it's more complicated than it than it was in the beginning because there was clearly both legislative new laws and customs and you know
there were real biases that were institutionalized bias as now we're dealing with more subtle
issues a lot rather than that was institutionalized days how important it was for me to have that
the hoof very different than just a lot shirking yeah
cheers are alter ego
she was she was like are alter ego right web breathe lead grace daycare a surgeon and
to do i say something and yeah so i was at both last year of your for us out
things and i actually two years ago i felt like i had expressed some kind of of my own experience of discrimination and pain and i felt passionately kind of remark by older people that they have know nothing outweigh the struggle and we've had no
get on your own for this oh really that's interesting
how such a kind of like yeah action
the here
listen and also see that that change because i am and i i came here and i know has been all around it hasn't been something here for a bit better in the background there's also a one of the from