So this is our first Dharma talk during the summer season and all during the practice period, the six months of the year that we do practice period, the three different kinds of practice periods, fall and winter and spring. We have Wednesday night Dharma talk in Zendo, sitting on cushions or in Zazen posture. And then in the summer, we come together more intimately, you might say, sitting in this room, a little closer together, and sometimes they're formal talks, more formal, and sometimes we have invited guests who come and it's informal, and I think tonight I just wanted to have a more formal feeling for the first one. But as the summer goes along, the Tanto, Fusan will announce the level of formality for the

[01:29]

Wednesday night talk, so it will be different, it won't be this formal every time. The Tanto and the practice committee and I have been talking about a theme for these talks throughout the summer, and the theme, one of the themes anyway, that people felt would be very helpful, beneficial and useful and encouraging would be to talk about the precepts. So, I was hoping to start out in a kind of general way talking about the precepts and how they relate to our Zazen practice, and then over the weeks we'll take up individual ones and look at them more closely, and perhaps break into small groups so you can talk more

[02:35]

intimately with a smaller group, and then other things will be brought up as well, so that's a kind of overview. So last Friday we had a lay ordination here, we had a Bodhisattva precept initiation. How many of you were not here at the ordination or have never been to an ordination, lay ordination? Okay, so I wanted to give just a brief overview of the precepts and the ones that we chant and work with are called the 16 Bodhisattva precepts. During the Buddha's time, Shakyamuni Buddha's time, when the order of monks and nuns was begun, was started, there were no precepts, there were no rules how to interact and what

[03:38]

to do every day. The Buddha just, he just said, come practice with me, and they would do Zazen and beg for their food, and then as the group got larger and the days, the different situations, circumstances of the days unfolded, there would be some situation where the Buddha would say, let's do it this way, or this is the most beneficial way to treat one another, let's do this, or this may lead to distraction, so let's not do this, and slowly, slowly they're built up a body of guidelines and rules and ways that the people agreed that they would conduct themselves, and some of those rules are very, very detailed, like the length of a bed platform, or how many needles you could own, or the right way to

[04:49]

go begging for food, and these kinds of things, and they were based on circumstances to help the monks to practice hard and to help each other, the monks and nuns. So, near the end of Buddha's life, he said to Ananda, who was his close attendant for years and years, also his cousin, he said, you know, Ananda, after I'm dead, you know, if some of these precepts don't actually correspond to what's going on, some of the minor ones, you can nullify them, the group of monks and nuns can just let those go, and Ananda was so astonished that the Buddha had said that some of these could just be dropped, that he didn't ask him, well, which ones are the minor ones? So after the Buddha died, there was a council about three months after the Buddha died, of

[05:49]

all the enlightened disciples, they all came together, the arhats, for a council, and they asked Ananda, who memorized everything that the Buddha said, he had an enormous capacity for memorization, and he was with the Buddha for so many years, everything the Buddha ever said, he could recite, and all the sutras start out, thus have I heard, that's Ananda, who heard this, and then he says it, thus have I heard. So at this council, he told them that the Buddha said, after I die, you can drop the petty, the minor ones, and Makakasho, or Mahakasyapya, who in the Zen lineages thought of as the Buddha's successor, when we chant, it's Shakyamuni Buddha, Makakasho, and he said, well, which ones did the Buddha say we could drop, and he said, I don't know. So Makakasho said, since we don't know what the Buddha felt was minor, or the little ones,

[06:51]

we'll just keep them all, every one of them. And that practice went on for a long time, and about 100 years later, after the Buddha died, about 100 years after that, there was a second council called, and at that council, there was a disagreement among the practitioners about 10 precepts that some group thought were kind of minor, and they wanted to let them go, and the other group said, no, no, this is the Buddha's words, and we have to keep them. And that eventually split the Sangha into two groups, the northern, which became Mahayana, and the southern, which became the old wisdom school, or Hinayana, which is a derogatory term, but they split over this question of precepts, and which precepts to hold to. So the whole discussion of precepts is very old, and the potential for divisiveness, literally,

[07:56]

about interpretation of the precepts, and the rules, and the guidelines, and so forth, is very, it's traditional, it's embedded right in there, just human beings, the way we are, where we don't always see eye to eye about very essential things that one might think would be completely clear, but it wasn't always. So the southern school, and the northern school, and the southern school went into, became the Theravadan countries of Sri Lanka, and Ceylon, and Thailand, and Burma, and the northern Buddhism, Mahayana, went into East Asia, and Korea, and Vietnam, although they had both different kinds. But when, I'm skipping up to about 8th century Japan, there was a Buddhist teacher at the

[08:59]

time from the Tendai school, who asked the emperor, petitioned the emperor of China to be able to ordain Buddhist monks using the 16 Bodhisattva precepts, rather than the full 250 Vinaya, or for nuns, it's 50 or so more. So he asked the emperor if the Japanese monks could have this other kind of ordination. It was a state religion, so the emperor was involved in this, and I guess he petitioned several times, and died before the emperor said okay. But the emperor finally did say okay. And so in Japan, the 16 Bodhisattva precepts are what is given in the ordination for both lay ordination and priest ordination, and there's a small group of people who still receive this larger group of precepts, and in other countries, they sometimes do both.

[10:02]

So through our teacher and the founder of Zen Center, Suzuki Roshi, and through Dogen and our particular lineage, the 16 Bodhisattva precepts are what is offered. And for the priest ordination, or the priest receiving of precepts, it's called leaving home and attaining the way, or realizing the way, and for the lay, that's shukkei tokudo. And for the lay, it's staying home and accomplishing the way, which is zaikei tokudo. So it's both tokudo, accomplishing the way, and it's just different modes. One is leaving home and one is staying at home, but it's accomplishing the way, and the same exact precepts. Now the word precept comes from the root that means the same as capable, kapere, to hold

[11:07]

in one's hands, or to be capable. And there's a lot of different words that have the same C-E-P-T part, like except, oh, and it also means to take with the hands, to actually take. So except is to take separately, and E-X, C-E-P-T, except is to take separately. And susceptibility, susceptible, is to be taken from underneath, to be, you know. And to take by treachery or by trickery is decept, deception. And to receive an offering is recept, or, so there's all these cepts. And precept is to take beforehand, precept means to take beforehand, or prescribe or recommend, to take beforehand. So I've kind of turned that around for quite a while, why does precept mean to take beforehand?

[12:20]

Don't you take it right there, isn't it more like an accept or a recept instead of a precept? How come take before? And my kind of landing with that taking before is around the fact that the precepts are a description of living according to, or not according to, living our full Buddha nature. Living in accord with, or not even in accord with because that separates the two, but full expression of Buddha nature, or the truth of our human life. So in some ways we've already, this is our birthright you might say, or this is the way if we are completely in alignment and settled, completely settled, we live like this.

[13:21]

So in some ways, before we even take them, this is how we are. And when we decide to take them, it's a decision to bring our entire life into alignment with the way we really are, which we sometimes feel misaligned or out of alignment with. So that's how I understand this, taking beforehand, because you already are the precepts. So I brought with me the brief admonition sutra, Parinirvana, which is what the Buddha said on his deathbed. And what did he talk about on his deathbed? I mean, you could imagine him talking about lots of different things, but what he brought up was the precepts. So in this last discourse, it's long and I won't read the whole thing, but the words

[14:26]

of the sutra, it has a, it's liturgical, it has a kind of chanting, old language kind of feel to it, the repetition and the way, I mean, it's partially the translation and partially how Ananda basically spoke and then, because it was an oral tradition for so many years, passed down orally, it has an oral feel to it rather than a written thing. So I wanted to, sometimes when I read the old sutras, like the middle-length sayings and the discourses, I think, I find myself saying, oh, that's, you know, that's not Zen, that's some Theravada, Hinayana thing. I don't have to really take this so seriously because, do you know what I mean? I don't know if that happens to you sometimes, but a certain kind of distancing myself from

[15:29]

the words of the Buddha, which I have, I had questioned myself about that, you know, what is it? Is it just certain words I don't like or, so anyway, if that, so I don't usually read these old things. I tend to read out loud Zen ancestors or Suzuki Roshi or something, which I brought also, but I thought it would be nice to hear the words of the Buddha from the, right before he was going to die. And upon, when this discourse on Dharma was said, was spoken, Subhadra was awakened. He had enlightenment. And in the first, the first turning of the wheel, when someone heard it, Ajnapta Kaundina was awakened. Remember the Buddha said, Kaundina's got it. He's got it. So in this one, Subhadra, when he heard this, was fully awakened.

[16:33]

And this is often, other teachers have said that in a Dharma talk or sometimes people have great insight into their life. So, so this took place while the Buddha was lying between the two solitaries where he died and he was about to enter Nirvana. It was the middle of the night, calm and without sound. For the sake of all his disciples, he briefly spoke of the essentials of the Dharma. Oh, bhikshus. And I think in, we don't know exactly who was gathered around him, whether it was bhikshus and bhikshunis, but this says, oh bhikshus. So maybe he was just with the monks. So this is the last words of their teacher. If you can picture the scene in the middle of the night, they're, they're doing standing vigil around him or sitting around him. Oh bhikshus, after I pass away, respect and cherish the precepts.

[17:40]

Following the precepts is like coming upon a light in the darkness, like a poor person finding a great treasure. You should know that the precepts are your teacher. To have the precepts is the same as if I were to remain in the world. And then he, he goes on to list some certain admonitions about, you know, not fortune telling and not keeping servants and animals and all, all these particular things to the to the home leavers. Not being involved in worldly affairs, don't perform magic or mix potions or become closely acquainted with eminent people. All these ought not to be done with a clear mind and right mindfulness. You should seek awakening. You ought not to conceal your wrongdoing, express mistaken views.

[18:45]

You ought not to conceal your wrongdoing, express mistaken views or lead people astray. In receiving the four kinds of offering, and that would be food, medicine, cloth for robes and shelter, I think. Know what is proper, what is a proper amount and be content with it. When you receive an offering, you should not hoard it. Now I shall speak briefly of how to protect the precepts. The precepts are the basis of true liberation. Therefore, they are called the Pratimoksha, which means that which leads towards liberation. By relying on the precepts, you will give rise to all the jhanas, the concentrations, and to the knowledge of the extinction of suffering. That's by relying on the precepts, you will give rise to all the concentrations

[19:47]

and to the knowledge of the extinction of suffering. For this reason, O Bhikshus, you should keep the precepts and not let them be broken. If you keep the precepts, then you will obtain good or wholesomeness. If you do not keep the precepts, no merit can arise at all. Therefore, you should know that the precepts are the dwelling place of equanimity, which is the ultimate merit. And then it goes on to talk about the five sense desires. The precepts, just to name them, the sixteen Bodhisattva precepts, and in this he's referring to this larger group, but they could all be melted down, you might say, into the sixteen, which are taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, embracing and sustaining right conduct, all good and all beings, and then the ten grave, which is not to kill, not to take what is not given,

[20:52]

not to misuse sexuality, not to lie, not to intoxicate mind or body of self or others, not to slander, not to praise self at the expense of others, not to be possessive of anything, not to harbor ill will, and not to disparage the triple treasure. So those are the sixteen. So he brings up the five desires which come from the five senses, and if you follow the five desires, now this I think is interesting, obhikshus, you have been abiding in the precepts, you should control the five senses, I think those kinds of words like control and good and evil and things, that's one of the reasons I don't like to read these, because I think it's hard sometimes people, and myself included, have a reaction like,

[21:52]

don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do, or something like that. So he says, you should control the five senses, do not leave the senses unguarded, allowing them to enter the five desires. So from the five senses of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body, come the five desires, the desires of visuals and touchables and tasteables and smellables, and if you indulge the five senses, the five desires will become unbounded, and you will be unable to control them. And it's likened to a bad-tempered horse, which is not controlled by a bit, falling into a ditch and pulling his rider down with him. So do not neglect them and be mindful. For this reason the wise person controls his or her senses,

[22:53]

and does not follow after them. He guards them, it says he here, so I'm just going to read it as is, he guards them like prisoners, these five senses are like prisoners, and does not let them wander about. Even when he lets them go free, before long they are all extinguished. And I think that's like Suzuki Roshi saying, give your cow a big pasture and let it go, let it wander about, because it's not like you want to get rid of the five senses, or if you even could, and try to get rid of them, but you guard them, you watch them, you're mindful of them, you're aware of what's going on, and you don't follow after them. Even if you let them go free, you don't go after them. And before long they're extinguished. So if you don't elaborate, and go after, and add more,

[23:54]

the desires get extinguished, they cool, if you don't follow after them. So it's not that you try to get rid of, or push them down, like they're bad, it's more they arise and they go away, and you just let them arise and let them go away. And if you're mindful, practicing this mindful guarding, it's this awake attentiveness to what's going on in body and mind. And if you're practicing that way, you watch them extinguish. You let them be free, but you don't go after them and elaborate. So the master of the five senses is the mind. And so on, lots of different images, like a person who, running hastily with a jar of honey in her hands, looks only at the honey and does not see the deep hole. Which is a great image, isn't it?

[24:57]

It's such a mess with the honey jars, or like Pooh Bear with the heffalump in the hole. And a mad elephant without its chain, or a monkey jumping around. This is if you let the senses just go and follow after them. And you're just agitated and chasing. There's excitement and disruption. So strive diligently. O bhikshus, in receiving all food and drink, you should accept it as medicine. Do not take more of what you like and less of what you dislike. Just take enough to support your body and avoid starvation and thirst. Anyway, there's so much here. Let's see. A lot about hatred.

[26:02]

The precept of the disciple of the Buddha does not harbor ill will. Basically, he says if you give way to hateful thoughts, you obstruct your own way and lose the benefit of your merit. This merit, I think, is problematic. But basically, the conditions that you've created for yourself to be able to practice and help others, you destroy them very easily with hateful thoughts and actions. Patience is a virtue which even the keeping of the precepts and the undertaking of ascetic practices cannot equal. And patience is the main practice around hate and ill will, is to have patience when people are hurting you. One who practices patience can truly be called a powerful, great being. And so forth.

[27:05]

You should know that hatred is more powerful than a raging fire. Always guard yourself and do not allow hatred to enter. No robber steals more merit than hatred. Householders who have desires and do not practice the way have no teaching by which to control themselves. Even hatred is forgivable in them. Those who have left home and practiced the way of no desire should never give rise to hatred, just as thunder and lightning do not occur in a light, feathery cloud. So, let me just skip along here. An Honest Mind talks about a person of many desires who seeks for their own gain, has much suffering, a person of few desires, neither seeking nor desiring anything, does not have this sorrow. Simply for this reason, you should practice fewness of desires. Because if you want to be free from all suffering,

[28:07]

you must know contentment. The state of contentment is the condition of prosperity and ease. One who is contented is happy, even when he or she has only the earth to lie on. One who is not contented is dissatisfied, even when he or she is in a celestial palace. So, at the end, a final thing after talking about this practicing of the precepts allows wisdom to grow. And it's wisdom, truly wisdom is a stout ship which carries you across the sea of old age, sickness and death. It is an excellent medicine for all sicknesses, is wisdom. And without practicing the precepts, the Buddha is saying, you cannot, wisdom is, you can't, you can't know wisdom.

[29:10]

So, all these, I can't tell if I'm losing you after all falling asleep, or if this is okay with you. Several of the precepts have to do with language, with lying, slander, praising self at the expense of others, and also often ill will, harboring ill will is expressed with certain kind of language like sarcasm, and if not necessarily slander, just harsh talk, mean talk. You know, sometimes, sometimes one hears, sometimes people come and tell me that so-and-so is really mean to people, is impolite and rude and really mean. And to hear that, it's one of the things,

[30:16]

one of the things in community that can be extremely harmful, the use of speech in an unkind way. You know, this community has had very little, really very little in all these years of physical violence, although we've had physical violence too, where there's been actual hitting, striking out, punching, but really, like I can maybe name, maybe less than fingers on one hand, but harsh speech, sarcasm, unkind words, is not so, you know, it's not so uncommon. And hopefully as we take up those precepts during the summer, we can really, really all practice together with our language. So there's harsh speech and divisive speech, malicious talk, which is all the slander, there's lying, which is untruths,

[31:18]

there's praising self at the expense of others, which is language that puts other people down in order to make you look better, all that kind of speech points to a misunderstanding about the truth of self and other are not different. The precepts themselves point to this, the core teaching of Buddhism, which is the non-separateness of self and other. So the precepts are a way that those function in the world. Well, how do you function so that self, how do you express self and other are not different? Well, you speak kindly to one another, you have, the word sarcasm means to tear flesh, the root of it, sarcasm is tear flesh. So what passes sometimes for wit and, you know, joking around

[32:19]

has a kind of edge to it like, you know, like little claws. So to bring those up together as a community I think is very supportive, supportive to me and hopefully supportive to everyone. And there's other kind of talk that the Buddha proscribes, is that the word? Useless talk, frivolous talk and idle chatter is another kind of talk which sometimes leads to slander and a kind of loose talking about other people. So he says here, Obikshus, if you engage in all manner of useless talk, your mind will be confused. It's about your own practice. What's interesting about the precepts is there's you practicing the precepts or me practicing the precepts and how that cultivates my own practice. And then there's when, let's say,

[33:21]

my practice when someone is using abusive speech or harsh speech to me. That's a different kind of practice. That's patience and understanding how this is developing me and developing parts of myself that don't usually or may not be as developed if someone is actually being mean to me or hurting me. So that's a different practice. And then the person who is using the harsh speech, then they have a different practice. You see what I mean? It depends on which point of view. So sometimes it's very helpful to have somebody speak harshly to you because you get a chance to really see where you, you know, that you've got a lot of ill will as soon as somebody starts talking that way to you. You don't have much patience and you hate them back and you yell back. So there's various practices around the observing and the non-observing of the precepts. It's endless. It's endlessly vast and rich.

[34:22]

So in terms of useless talk, if you're going to be doing useless talk, it may be harming someone else. But it also is very confusing. Your mind gets very confused if you're doing frivolous talk at idle chatter. So if you engage in all manner of useless talk, your mind will be confused. Even if you have left home, meaning you're ordained as a monk, you will not attain liberation. For this reason, bhikshus, you should immediately leave behind confused thought and useless talk. If you want to attain the bliss of nirvana, you need only extinguish the evil of useless talk. Such is the practice of avoiding useless talk. So the bliss of nirvana and extinguishing the evil, don't let that stop you from hearing that useless talk leaves you with a confused, agitated body and mind. So then he asks, you probably noticed at the end,

[35:32]

if you have any doubts about the Four Noble Truths, ask about them immediately. If they don't have doubts, and one of the Aniruddhas says, oh no, it's the Buddha who says, anyway, at this time with the Buddha dying in front of them, their thought would be, if they've crossed the ocean of suffering and truly understand, their thought would be, how swift is the passing of the World Honored One. That's their thought at this time. And then at the end he says, oh bhikshus, do not grieve, even if I were to live in the world for as long as a kalpa, which is a measureless length of time, immeasurable, our coming together would have to end.

[36:33]

There can be no coming together without parting. The teaching which benefits both self and others has reached completion. Even if I were to live longer, there would be nothing to add to the teaching. Those who were to be awakened, whether in the heavens or among human beings, have all been awakened. Those who have not yet been awakened, all possess the conditions for attaining awakening. If all my disciples practice the teaching from now on, through generation after generation, the Dharma body of the Tathagata, that's the Das Kapwan era, a name for the Buddha, will exist, the Dharma body of the Tathagata will exist forever and will not be destroyed. Therefore you should know that all things in the world are impermanent. Coming together inevitably means parting. Do not be troubled, for this is the nature of life. Diligently practicing right effort, you will seek liberation immediately.

[37:34]

With the light of wisdom, destroy the darkness of ignorance. Nothing is secure. Everything in this life is precarious. O Bhikshus, you should always wholeheartedly seek the way of liberation. All things in the world, whether moving or non-moving, are characterized by disappearance and instability. Stop now. Do not speak. Time is passing. I'm about to cross over. This is my final teaching. So, this final part where all things that come together, even if I were to live a kalpa, a kalpa is the amount of time it takes an iron mountain that's immeasurably high to be worn down by a bird's wing

[38:38]

that touches it lightly once every hundred years. That's a kalpa. So even if we were to live a kalpa, still, one day there would be parting. Everything that comes together will eventually part. This is our shared human life together. This is our suffering. And when we understand this, this is what our intention, once we understand this, is to live each moment fully knowing this, that we will part. Those we love. It will not last. It cannot last. So don't waste time. This is what the Han says. Do not waste time. Do not pass your days and nights in vain. You know this teaching of impermanence. And the precepts are this articulated way of bringing that forth

[39:44]

and not wasting a moment in activities that may hurt those you love, may hurt others, may cause you to be so confused you can't live in the world in truth or we can't live in the world in alignment with our understanding. Even when we have full understanding, still, our habitual energy forces us or we may feel forced by habit patterns to do things in an old way that's still harming even with full insight into impermanence and suffering and non-self. So we don't have the full range of precepts that we're working with, but we do have our own precepts, you could say, or rules or guidelines that have grown out of, you know, living in America at this time,

[40:45]

in this situation, these circumstances. And it's just like in the Buddhist times that we don't talk about we only can own two needles, you know, or all the different things that were created at that time to address the issues. In the Sixth Ancestor, basically, Hui Neng said, there are no rules that are kind of set in stone. The precepts come out of the understanding of our life. The realization of our zazen, actually, is where the precepts come out. It's the appropriate action on the circumstances of right then and there. So even these precepts, you know, and this is why I say it's vast, because there's the literal keeping the precepts like do not steal or do not take what is not given, you know. And there's the compassionate understanding of that same precept,

[41:46]

which is sometimes you steal. You steal a loaf of bread to give to a starving person, maybe. Is that breaking the precept or is that not breaking the precept? So one has to have a non-confused and unconfused body and mind to be able to know at that time, in the moment, in that circumstances, what is appropriate action, or what is just making more trouble, you know. So there's the literal, there's the compassionate, and then there's the ultimate understanding of the precepts, which is it is impossible to steal. How could you take something? How could you take something if there is no self and other, if there is no object outside of mind, if there is no subject or object?

[42:49]

What are you taking from whom, you know? That's the ultimate understanding and all the precepts you can study in those three different ways. And sometimes someone may be coming from some, they think they're coming from the ultimate understanding, you know, it's all one man, you know, that one. This doesn't belong, you know, there's no such thing as stealing. This is my cup, so see you later, guys, you know. Well, that's, if you really understand it, then the literal and the compassionate and the ultimate are in alignment. You know that story about Suzuki Roshina's glasses? You probably do. It's kind of a famous story where he said he had glasses on and he said, these glasses don't, I'm wearing these glasses, but they don't belong to me. I'm wearing them because you allow me to wear these glasses. Now, someone may say, well, those are his glasses, he went to the eye doctor,

[43:49]

it's his prescription, they don't fit anybody else. What's he saying? But actually, and we know stories about this, somebody could take and rip those glasses off, stomp on them, and not allow him to wear those glasses. It really is by the goodwill and the harmony of all beings that he is allowed to wear those glasses or that you're allowed to. Have your food or, you know. So, that's a, to think in that way, how connected we actually are is practicing the precepts. And our Zazen practice, you know, we say, when sitting Zazen, what precepts are you breaking? So in Zazen, even if you do have ill will, let's say, the, it arises,

[44:50]

you let it go, you're not actually expressing to someone ill will. When I say Zazen, I'm saying full expression of yourself in not necessarily only Zazen posture, but Zazen posture, Zazen, the periods of Zazen that we call Zazen are an excellent way to understand how to live your life with Zazen mind. So, I don't want to narrow it though. So, so our Zazen, in fact, it's been said by Dogen that you can't actually sit Zazen or practice Zazen, maybe I should say, unless you're practicing the precepts. You're just kidding yourself. So,

[45:50]

I can't read that clock. Is it getting on to 8.30? 8.20. 8.20. So, so, Hui Nung basically said there aren't things set. We create them together out of our circumstances. So we have various guidelines and rules here that have been created out of whatever it is, 35 years of a group of people trying to practice and what seems to be the most beneficial to create causes and conditions to find our way and to take care of one another and to live in harmony. That's the way it should be, you know, because if we get too attached, well, this is the way it is,

[46:51]

and the Buddha said this. The Buddha only said what was in alignment with circumstances, what was true then and when circumstances change. Which is this, it's funny as I said that, what do you mean it's not changed, the basic fundamental, can I actually say that? Yes, I'm going to say that. The basic truth of our finding our way each moment, that basic truth is unchanged and has been passed down through generations. So it's up to each one of us. It's not, you can't give it over to somebody else. We have to find our way. So,

[47:55]

so I'm looking forward to this study together. I think it's very alive because it really is about our life and our interactions and our desires and fears and it's about us together and I don't, the precepts, you know, I think I used to think they were these sort of stodgy old kind of archaic things or something that, but the more I practice and listen to them and talk about them with others and reflect on them myself, the more I see the, how alive and, and of course the ordination is Ky is precepts, Ju in this case means giving and receiving. It's the ceremony of giving and receiving precepts. That's the core ceremony

[48:56]

for ordinations, funerals, like it or not, it's all about precepts and Zazen and precepts are not too. So, so, so hopefully this, this, taking this up together, it's very important to take up the precepts in a situation where there can be dialogue and discussion because the possibility for misunderstanding is very great and for clinging to one understanding. So, often they're not brought up in like a Sunday lecture or some situation where someone can go away with the wrong impression or misunderstanding. So it's very important to talk about it with your practice leader, individually, among, you know, dinner table conversation or in small groups

[49:57]

or on these Wednesday nights. It's very important to bring it up to elucidate because as soon as you say anything you're on one side and they're not one side, it's round. So we have to kind of circle round together. Okay, thank you very much.

[50:22]

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