Karen's son time. Her Dharma name is Yu-U Po-Sho. Gentle Rain, Dharma Blossom. It turns out that right around now, in these days, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, was the time that 40 years ago, Karen first came to BCC. So, she's been around for a while. And she's held a number of practice positions here. She received lay entrustment from Sojin Roshi several years ago. And Karen is a librarian at the main library in San Francisco, where she has the Hormel LGBT program, and she also has other supervisory duties at the library. Four years ago, she started a meditation group there, which is still going strong. Karen has to say today.

[01:07]

Thanks, Leslie. I'm going to start off by reading some verses. They come from a book called Transformation at the Base. by Thich Nhat Hanh. Actually, these verses, though, were written in the 4th or 5th century by some Indian Mahayana Buddhist teachers like Vasubandhu, and it's all about the psychology of mind. A later version of this book came out, and it was called Understanding Your Mind, 50 Verses on Buddhist Psychology. In Buddhist psychology, they talk about different levels of consciousness. And I'm not going to get academic or intellectual about any of this. I'm just going to talk about a little bit of it.

[02:09]

So I'm going to start by reading about the mind. And these are a few of the 50 verses. I'm going to read five of them. Mind is a field in which every kind of seed is sown. This mind field can also be called all the seeds. In us are infinite varieties of seeds. Seeds of samsara, nirvana, delusion and enlightenment. Seeds of suffering and happiness. Seeds of perception, names and words. Some seeds are innate, handed down by our ancestors. Some are sown while we're still in the womb. Others were sown when we were children. Whether transmitted by family, friends, society, or education, all our seeds are, by nature, both individual and collective.

[03:16]

The function of store consciousness is to receive and maintain seeds and their habit energies so they manifest in the world or remain dormant. So here, he's talking about one particular aspect of our consciousness. And all these seeds, some of them are wholesome, some are unwholesome, many are neither. We don't really see them when they're in our store consciousness, because that's what it is. It's a storehouse of everything. But when we do see them is when they manifest in our mind. For example, our thoughts are manifestations of these seeds. Our feelings, our reactions, our suffering, our happiness, all that is when the seeds manifest. So what do we do with the fact that we have all these seeds of so many kinds within us?

[04:26]

Well, there are a couple of things that we do. For one thing here in our practice, Our fundamental practice here is sitting zazen. It's by far not the only thing, but that's what we do together. And so, as soon as we sit down on the cushion, we experience parts of ourselves, things we like or we don't like, thoughts or ideas that may be potentially harmful or not, So when we sit zazen, we practice, we keep our mind on something neutral, which is the breath, and then the mind does its thing of whatever it does in each of us, possibly emotional entanglements, memories,

[05:29]

avoidance of the present moment. And we keep coming back to the breath. We keep letting go of encouraging pursuit of particular things. For example, We could be having an argument with someone repeatedly, or we may have anger. Most of us do, but some of us may be preoccupied with a particular person. So in zazen, we have this option of pursuing angry thoughts or not. we can drop them and come back to the breath. It's almost like leaving the seed dormant, not letting it spread.

[06:32]

And we need to do that over and over again. I'm not saying it's easy. And another example is road rage. I think that most people, if they experience road rage, were probably in a pretty good mood half an hour before, or they were not raging all day long. What happened was that there was a manifestation of a seed, and that's when it comes into our awareness. Having road rage may say, I didn't know I had that anger. Why am I so angry all of a sudden? Where did it come from? Sometimes it seems like emotions come out of nowhere. Kindness can come out of nowhere.

[07:32]

I'm very fortunate in my life. Working at San Francisco Public Library, when you think of a librarian, you often think about books. and helping people find books. But really what I do most of the time is administer to the social needs of the people in the tenderloin. That's really what I do. And a lot of them are poor and a lot of them have issues like severe mental health and substance addiction, sometimes a combination of both. But I spend most of my time really as a social worker. The people I work with, they have their own storehouse.

[08:38]

I have my storehouse, they have their storehouse. They overlap quite a bit. Sometimes I am able to do something which allows their seeds of happiness to manifest. And that's my favorite part about my job. I'm going to get back to some examples of that, but I want to, before I go on to storytelling, I do want to mention one other part of this verse, which is very important, and it's about perception. is a particular stanza that I think is really important when we're interacting in the world especially.

[09:44]

Manifestations from store consciousness can be perceived directly in the mode of things in themselves, or as representations, or as mere images. All are included in the elements of being. So there are three, he defines three ways that one perceives. Things in themselves, and that's really when we're witnessing without the eye. Sometimes this happens, but not all that often. Usually we're too involved with ourselves. But... Perceiving things directly is not having that bias about me and what I want. You know, a lot of poems are written about this in nature.

[10:50]

I think it's easiest to experience this when you contemplate mountains and flowers and things like that. It's harder to do with people, but it's the same. So there's the mode of things and themselves, which Buddhists often call suchness. Then is representations. That's another way we perceive. So if we fall in love with someone, that early period especially is often a fantasy. It's a projection. It's an image of something that we're in love with. In fact, that can continue through a whole relationship if you don't work at it, because often one can say, oh, I know this person so well. We've been together for 30 years. Now she's going to do this. He's going to do that. One can have that, and then that's also mere representation.

[11:56]

One isn't really observing and being present with that person and who they are. That is not really perceiving. That's just repeating one's own idea. And then there's something else he mentions that I'm not going to go into, but mirror images. That's when, for example, you walk along and you see a snake. You get really upset and you notice it's just a rope. That kind of thing, but that's not so much what I want to address. It's more representation. So, how do we understand our experience and what do we see? So, In the library, for example, I'm a supervisor on the third floor of the main library. So a lot of the problems that arise come to me.

[13:01]

People come to me to solve them. Often, especially on the weekend, I'm in charge of the whole building. It's seven floors. And a lot of things come up. Well, recently, I was on the reference desk and I have a Japanese co-worker. She came up to me very upset because there was a patron, a woman, a Caucasian woman, who was very angry at her because she couldn't help her with the photocopy machine. And she got very impatient and then started calling her names, racial slurs about her ancestry, which she insisted was Chinese, even though she wasn't Chinese, but saying something like, you Chinese people, something, something. So this was very upsetting. So I said, I will handle this person.

[14:06]

So I go up to the person and she started venting at me. You know, the photocopy machine, the Asian worker, the photocopy machine, her. And I just said, what do you need help with? And I spent about 20 minutes getting her photocopies completed, which is not an easy thing. But I very patiently taught her how to work the photocopy machine. I actually did a lot of her work for her. And then she's saying, oh, thank you, thank you. She was profusely thanking me. And then I waited a few seconds and I said, did you call my coworker a name?

[15:11]

And at that point, some space had opened up in her, but she, apologize, she was in tears, saying how sorry and embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed she was. She really was ashamed, I think, of herself. She went on and on about how ashamed she was, and I thought it was sincere. And she said, well, what can I do? And I said, well, you could go over and apologize. How about that? She said, I'll do that. So she went over to my coworker and apologized. And then later I heard my colleague came to me and was really much happier with the way it turned out. Racial things are really hard to talk about, but that's an area where we get caught in representations and not listening to other people, just absolutely not listening.

[16:37]

I am presently In my job, I'm in the middle of a five-week series called anti-bias training. I think this is kind of a new word for the diversity training on learning racism. And in most of my workplaces, we have had these trainings there because, well, I don't know, I work at public institutions generally. I've worked in a number of public libraries and also in another private business I worked in we had these trainings. I think they're really important. People get incredibly defensive. It often ends up being all about them. For example, often people who are Caucasian, and I will say I have done this too, had a fear of being attacked for being white.

[17:44]

But that's really all about me. It has nothing to do with hearing someone else's experience, which is what I think is so important When I worked at Berkeley Public Library in my early days of being a librarian, I was an intern there. This was like the late 80s, and we had a diversity training. Some of the exercises I've done in various trainings, one of them was sitting in a group, and the group had people from different backgrounds. And they, each person got to say something that they wanted everyone else to know about their ethnicity or background. And so, there was an African-American woman who I saw every day at work.

[18:54]

I didn't know her very well, but I saw her every day. And she said, what I want everyone to know is how many black men are trying so hard to succeed. And somehow, I've never forgotten her words. So, direct perception is something we practice here in Zazen and we can practice it out in the world. But it's letting go of that self-centered thinking.

[19:55]

This is a quote from the poet W.S. Merwin. Just this, just this, this room where we are, pay attention to that. Pay attention to who's there. Pay attention to what isn't known there. Pay attention to what is known there. Pay attention to what everyone is thinking and feeling, what you're doing there, and pay attention. Pay attention. Going back to the store consciousness and our seeds, I like to think of it as a garden, and we're the gardeners. I didn't come up with this thought. It's Thich Nhat Hanh's thought.

[21:27]

We have all these kinds of seeds in us and we have the ability through our practice to not feed the unwholesome seeds. We can just let them, allow them to stay dormant. We can't get rid of them or kill them. Some people want to get rid of their thoughts. That's not possible. But we don't have to feed them. We can encourage our wholesome, wholesome thoughts, wholesome feelings. And we can really help others. We can't, fix other people's seeds, but we can, if they're receptive, we can encourage certain seeds to blossom.

[22:50]

Seeds of happiness, for example. At work, I see a lot of people who haven't had a good interaction all day long. It might have been weeks since they had a good interaction. Sometimes I have the opportunity just to smile and say, how are you? That makes a huge difference to some people. Now there are a few other people who don't like the how are you and tell me where to go, but you know, We have opportunities really to cultivate wakefulness and happiness. And at this time, I think at this time of year,

[23:59]

We all know what's going on in the world and in our country. It's easy to give up and be frustrated, to feel hopeless. But I think, I really think it isn't hopeless, that we have opportunities and We can cultivate the wholesome seeds that are there. They're not gone. So don't give up. I don't have a clock. What time is it? Maybe I'll stop talking now. And Sojin, do you have anything to continue? No. More about not giving up.

[25:15]

You can ask the questions. Okay. Well, Jed just said, talk more about not giving up. When we look at a really big picture out there, it's overwhelming. It's important to try and look at the small, because it has ripple effects. For example, these situations in the library, helping a seed of happiness to manifest in someone who hasn't been happy for a very long time, that person may bump into somebody else and affect them in a positive way. It's bigger than we think. I'll just ask for... I'll expound if people ask me a question. So, does anyone have... Ross?

[26:19]

It dovetails the feeling of helplessness and that it's not dovetails with this woman at the library years ago just sharing with you this feeling that all these men are trying to do better. and here it is decades later. And that seed sprouted and it really is a testament to paying attention. As in the Merwin poem, and just be receptive to what's what's around you and it may very well transform your life and others. So thanks for sharing that little more. Thank you. That's a really good point, these little things can last forever in your mind. It's that interaction that I described that Ross brought up really has, I've never looked at people the same way ever since then.

[27:45]

But thank you for making all those connections. example of a seed, anger, an angry seed, and how in Zazen you have a choice about whether to water that seed or not to water that seed by, I guess, dropping the thought, dropping the thoughts. I think there's, how do you tell the difference? letting something go in a skillful way, something like that, go in a skillful way, and stuffing your anger in a way that actually ends up being where it ends up coming back with more force later.

[28:55]

Because I know from experience that is possible to do it in a way which ends up suppressing in a way that the anger doesn't go away, it just comes back later. I understand what you're saying. So how can you tell the difference and how can you handle... Well, first of all, I do want to say that I don't think anger is bad. It's really what you do with it. that matters. So anger is very connected with wisdom, so there's nothing wrong with it, but if you spend a lot of time going over and over situations and being angry, it's going to color whatever you're doing in your life, and it will carry over. So generally we don't want to engage in it, but the difference When we sit, we're not battling.

[30:02]

Sometimes we think about thoughts arising, anger, fear, and feel like we have to get rid of them or bury them. That's not what it's about. In fact, the way that you practice one's attitude towards zazen is really important because that's where you are allowing whatever is there to be without. feeding it. So anger is just there. It's just anger. One thing we do in Sazen is we let go of the story. The story is very distracting because then we get into who's right and who's not. That's not the point. So I would suggest if you're sitting with a lot of anger, you can just notice that it's anger. Don't be for or against it. In fact, that wonderful poem, the Xin Xin Ming, starts out by saying, don't be for or against anything.

[31:08]

That's how we practice. Yes? And just to what you were saying to that, the way it's helped me to think about it is to embrace it. Embrace everything that comes in. Don't fight it. Anger, any thought which could be unwholesome, as you said, you cannot get rid of thoughts. They are beyond us. They come from everywhere around us. So you're not going to be successful in getting rid of them. We embrace them. And Thich Nhat Hanh talks about this, to embrace it like a crying child. just taking care of the child gives some comfort. So just embrace it and don't fight it. That's somewhat what it means. Yes. It's really a lot about how we treat, how we practice with compassion for ourselves and for others.

[32:17]

And one thing I just wanted to mention about these seeds, we can't take them personally. For example, Just to repeat one of the lines, some seats are innate, handed down by our ancestors. According to Thich Nhat Hanh, some of these are generations old, many generations old. They may go back to our country of our ancestors' origin, sometimes hundreds of years ago. And some are sewn while we're still in the womb, and others were sewn when we were children. and they're transmitted by society and culture. So there's a whole collective aspect. Judy? In one group I practice with called Mindful Peacebuilding, we've been exploring the distinction in communities High context being where as you show up again and again, you get the gist of what are the practices, what are the ways of being in community.

[33:35]

And low context is where more of that is expressed and voiced as people come and go. And there's no right or wrong way, it's just context. And we've been exploring that around this issue of inclusiveness and diversity in its many ways. So what was coming up for me as I'm listening to you is there's this word debate and there's this phrase appropriate response and there's this precept of not to harbor ill will. And I heard in some of your stories examples of how to do that. How might you explore that? How can I explore that as I come and go?

[34:38]

I'm thinking of the example of the Japanese coworker and the woman. I could easily have gotten angry at her for her comments. And I was, actually, but I didn't show it. I think if we understand that people do have the capacity to understand that will help us let go of ill will. Like the woman with the photocopy machine needed some space and she needed a different condition for her to listen. If I had immediately told her, look, we don't tolerate those kind of comments in the library, which we don't, FYI. But I don't think I would have changed anything.

[35:47]

I had to wait for a moment when she was more open and in a different state of mind. So that's why I solved her problem with the Xerox machine. But I was not about to let her walk out of there triumphant, thinking that she got what she wanted that way. So I just think you really have to see the wholesome seeds in everyone, that they're there, even if you don't see them. Just trust that they're there. Did you have a? Okay, go ahead. just like we do in Zazen. And the practice of Zazen is actually the practice of meeting people. And you already answered my question, really, but I wanted to speak on it a little bit.

[36:52]

Addressing someone saying they can't understand, I'm going to speak to them from their not expressed understanding. Does that make sense? Yes. And when you're speaking for them, through them, or however, to their understanding, It means you're leaving some of yourself out of the whole picture. And there's no you to attack, there's no you to fight with. They are just speaking through you to themselves. And it's a wonderful opportunity. We do it in Zazen too. Stuff comes up, we hear ourselves speaking to ourselves, we speak to ourselves knowing we understand something, and we can resolve. So, thank you. Thank you. Who? Jerry. Thank you, Karen, for your everyday wisdom, great wisdom, which you always somehow illustrate with your own life.

[37:55]

I wanted to go back to the experience in the diversity workshop. I've had those experiences when I worked for the city and county centers as well. The thing that I heard in one workshop that I never forgot, from an African-American woman, was I never feel seen. I never feel acknowledged. When I walk around the street, people turn their heads away because they're uncomfortable, or whatever. But her perception was not. And so I made a practice of looking at people when I pass them and smiling at them, but as you have experienced, when you do that, sometimes you get a not necessarily grateful response. The other thing is it doesn't cross cultures, and some cultures don't feel that it's insulting to be looked at.

[38:59]

But how do you, you know, you obviously, since you're practicing this all the time, you have to be ready for the fact that you're effort of offering yourself to pay attention, to accept, to open to somebody may not be well received. How do you work with that? To be honest, there's so many masses of people in the library that I've developed thick skin. And I really do have to enforce a lot of discipline. Every day, every hour, I'm enforcing discipline. I try and do it as compassionately as possible, but a lot of the people who, you know, give me the, you know what, a lot of them have mental health issues, you know, they think that I'm smiling at them because I'm actually the FBI or something like that.

[40:07]

So I just really, just let them go on their way and I go on my way. So you're not expecting anything back? No. Well, you know, I've done that. You know, I've done the, aren't I a good person routine. But I've had plenty of opportunities to see that. So I do get to practice non-attachment to having people not respond to my personal agenda. Sir, you had your hand up before. I really love your story about the lady in the library photocopying. And...

[41:17]

just, just, just, just hatred. I can't think of any other way of describing it. And the thing that I've found is doing this sort of thing like what you're saying with helping somebody with their photocopying is easy enough, but then I guess the question is how to They may never agree with you, unfortunately.

[42:52]

I know what you mean. I mean, are you asking how do you change their minds for voting? Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with having relationships or friendships with people who you strongly disagree with. I have relatives who remind me of the kind of person you're describing around the campaign. A lot of them are actually good people. They receive a lot of information from their particular sources. And I receive, just out of curiosity, political material from both sides.

[43:54]

And I'm amazed at what they say, but I think if you're only reading that one side... So I don't know how to help you with that. I don't know, we might be out of time. Are we out of time, Jake? I'm sorry. I wish I could. But anyway, apparently our time is up. But thank you all so much for such a wonderful discussion. And I'll be outside if you want to continue afterward. Thank you for listening to me today. Sojin, you didn't want to add anything? You know, we say responding and reacting.

[45:03]

Responding is not the same as reacting. Reacting is what gets you in trouble, and creates more anger and so forth, and attaches you to whatever it is that you're angry at. So in order to free yourself, you respond, you step back and respond, and you have patience. And if you are used to, or have success at letting patience role, then everything comes around eventually, and you are aware of the moment, and you do the right thing at the right moment, which is your example of the lady in the library. You just waited for the right moment, without even thinking about where is the right moment, because you just have patience. I just want to say, what's your name?

[46:09]

Well, I just want to say that you may not change people's minds, but you don't know about the seed. You don't know really what your effect is on these people. It may be bigger than you think. It may come out later. They may think of what you said at a different time and do something differently. Speaking of patience.

[46:37]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ