Before I start my talk, I want to invite the newer people to come to our Beginners Sashim next Saturday. We're making an effort to make our practice more available to newer people. And in the past, it's been difficult for people to enter into our practice because of our not accommodating so much to newer people.

[01:05]

So we're making an effort to make it easier for people to enter our practice. And one way we're doing that is by having the introductory day which we had last month, which is more of a way of explaining our practice, talking about our practice, and a kind of seminar. And the introduction to Sashin is more of a way of actually experiencing longer sitting, but in a way that's easier than our regular Sashin. giving you some chance to discuss it and explain some things. So I would like you, hope that you would take advantage of that because it's really a difference in the way we've been running our day center.

[02:22]

We used to, our old attitude was to not to be a little bit aloof and to let you find your way and the strong ones find their way in and the weaker ones find their way out as a kind of in a natural way through that kind of standard. But I think that there are a lot of people who who might be practicing and benefiting from practice, who don't necessarily, who are intimidated by that. And so because of that, we're being more accommodating and more open to helping newer people, giving you some easy way, easier way to enter our practice.

[03:25]

So the introductory Sashin, from six, I think, till five, thirty or something, is a good way to enter into that extended sitting. There's enough Zazen so that it will give you a good focus, but not so much as to discourage you. And then we learned some of our procedures in Zendo, learning how to eat and how we use our Oryokis and so forth. And also a good chance to discuss Zazen. answer questions about Zazen and see what's on your mind. And you can probe my mind.

[04:33]

So I encourage you to attend that. Also, I think this kind of Sashin is good for people who have difficulty with long Sashins or who don't have so much time. So I encourage those people to come as well. Do you have any question about that? Are you going to be doing it regularly? Pretty regularly, yeah. I don't know what the sequence will be, but pretty regularly. Carlos? Before signing up with the sitting? Yeah, that's a good question. I can't do it all by myself. I can, but it's a lot easier when the regular members attend, because they're teachers too, and people watch the way they act.

[05:41]

The way we enter into practice, fundamentally, is by not being told anything or very little and then we watch and we follow. This is the traditional way. We watch and we follow and we find our way in that way. And so it makes us very alert and puts it up to us. But that quality still... we don't want to lose that quality. It's the quality of learning by awareness. And so when there are experienced people, members, they also become the teachers and you watch how they act. And so it gives a certain role to the regular members. And sometimes they will maybe do some explanation.

[06:46]

as we develop this kind of way of doing it, it will give older members a chance to do more teaching in that kind of situation. So it's really necessary for the older students to participate, and then they take those leading roles. And it's a way of people, older people, learning how to teach. So it's a way for older students to examine what we're doing. Even though we know how to do things, even though we know how to move our bodies, an expert on. Yes, that's right, that's a good point.

[07:55]

When you're aware that people are, that you're communicating something, it makes it different than when you're just doing something yourself. Is that what you mean? No, I mean, we can learn how to walk in Kenyan. Over again? Yeah, over again. Even though we technically know how to do it. it's a refreshing, refreshment of your understanding. Right? So, that's right. Even though it looks like it's for beginners, we're always beginners. And every time we hear the fundamentals, it's helpful for us. Because sometimes older members can go for a long time and forget or think that they're practicing right in a right way, and then suddenly, when they hear the fundamentals, they realize that they're off, or that they've forgotten things.

[09:01]

So it's also refreshing your practice for the older members. Very good, actually. we have to always continue to refresh our practice, otherwise we get stale. And which leads me into... Someone has had a question though. Yes, it's not next weekend. It's not? It's the 12th. Is it? Yeah. There was a little confusion about whether it was the 12th or the 19th. And it came out the 12th. Which brings me to my subject of my lectures. I want to continue with what I was talking about last week, which was what is the role of the teacher, and how does the student relate to the teacher, and how does the teacher relate to the student.

[10:12]

I said a lot of things last week, some of which I can't remember. Maybe I'll be redundant, but I want to say a little bit to get us started, to get us thinking about that. But I want to have some questions, so I won't say too much. But to continue what I was talking about last time, there are four ways You can look at it in four ways, general ways of how the relationship between a teacher and a student takes place. One way is that the teacher puts emphasis on the student, on the person. and helps the student to reflect on themselves.

[11:22]

And this is what we usually think of as the basis of our practice. Not so much learning, but since we consider each person to be Buddha, then Buddha should know how to be Buddha, right? We say, each one of us is Buddha. So if each one of us is Buddha, we should know how to be ourself. This is the main thing, the most fundamental thing in practice. How do you be Buddha? And if you look at the foundation of Buddhism, it's Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Buddha is each one of us, or the person is Buddha, and Dharma is teaching, or the law, and Sangha is Buddhas together, how we interrelate with each other.

[12:33]

So all three of these are necessary in studying. and practicing, but sometimes we put the emphasis just on Buddha, just on the person. And then sometimes we put the emphasis on dharma, which is teaching. It can be studying or it can be some kind of koan, or it's using our mind in some way. And sometimes we put emphasis on how we interrelate with each other. And sometimes we don't say anything. Sometimes the teacher completely withdraws from the student and leaves the student alone.

[13:37]

The fourth one is actually, although it looks like the worst, is actually the highest kind of teaching, where the teacher and the student don't have anything to do with each other. But that's not how you begin to study. I begin the study. If you want to enter into the practice and see what the teacher is about, then you have an interview with the teacher. And you present yourself, and the teacher will respond, and you find out something about each other. That's a kind of initial meeting, and that meeting is necessary. Sometimes we go along for a long time without meeting, and maybe the meeting is more casual. That's okay. But it's good to have, at some point it's good to have a, what you call a meeting, where you, it's not casual,

[14:50]

And there's some purpose in it. Purpose is just to meet in that space. And then the teacher and the student can decide, you know, should we continue this? If so, how often should we continue this? Many things can happen in that meeting. Maybe you decide, well, I'm not ready to be a student. Well, that's okay. It doesn't mean that you can't practice. You can still practice. There's nothing that says that you have to be a student of the teacher here in order to practice. And you don't have to be a Buddhist in order to practice. Anybody can come and go and sit zazen here. But if you want to develop your practice, then the teacher is there to help you do that.

[16:00]

If you become a student of the teacher, then the teacher may take you more seriously. The teacher doesn't take you seriously if you're not, but takes you more seriously in a certain sense. because it means that you establish some way of working together. And a student keeps up their end and a teacher keeps up his end, or her end. And from there, the method of the relationship takes its own form. There is no special form as to how that goes. But when I mention those four ways, those are just very general principles. Sometimes you put the emphasis on the person, sometimes you put the emphasis on the teaching, and sometimes you put the emphasis on interrelation.

[17:18]

with people, with the sangha. And sometimes you don't say anything. And usually it's up to the student to initiate a relationship. Once the student has initiated the relationship, the teacher will wait, you know, forever. for the student to initiate a relationship. And sometimes the teacher will help the person to do that, maybe hint or something. But the teacher can't grab somebody and say, you're my student. That's backwards. Student has to say, I would like to study with you, or something like that. And then the teacher will respond. That's the usual. And then, in the course of a relationship, the teacher can, if the teacher feels that the student is wandering some way, the teacher will say, let's have a talk, or let's get together, or what's happening, something like that, to bring the student back around.

[18:37]

But a good student will keep initiating and keep probing the teacher Sometimes people say, well, you know, I think the teachers, you're so busy all the time, I hate to take up your time. And I understand that very well because I was that way with Suzuki Roshi, sometimes. And sometimes he would send somebody to me and say, I think it'd be good if you saw Suzuki Roshi. And I think, but there's so many people that want to see him. He's so busy. But that's, I realize that's not a good way. You should bother your teacher. Bother your teacher to death. Don't ever feel that you want to protect him from yourself. It's that probing and pressure that creates a relationship and creates the practice that you have together.

[19:53]

But as I say, sometimes it's the other way around. In my practice with Suzuki Roshi, the understanding that we had was, most of it was kind of tacit. And when I would see him, I'd go away. After seeing him, I'd go away with what he gave me to deal with. And I would be dealing with that all the time, that I was not around him. And then somebody would come up and I'd go see him again. Somebody would come up in my practice or, you know, I'd have some other question. And then I'd go see him again. And then he'd give me another problem. You know, another way to look at this problem, which he always said is another problem. But I feel that even though that was so, even though I felt that I had to deal with my practice on my own,

[21:12]

in the sense that nobody could figure things out for me. I didn't go to my teacher to ask me to figure things out for me. But it's a way of checking myself and getting some direction so I could deal with myself. I knew I was on the right track in dealing with my own problems. You have to be very careful with what the teacher tells you. You know, if he talks too much. Sometimes I tend to talk too much and tell people something too explicit. And then, the problem with that is that you hold on to that. If I say, well, you should go left instead of right, you hold on to going left, because I said so. So I should be careful not to tell you something's too explicit, because you get attached to what I say, and then you're not... Sometimes that's okay, you know, sometimes anything is okay.

[22:23]

But generally speaking, the point of the interaction with the teacher is A teacher helps you to find your own way. You have to find your own way. And we're always doing that. But if you don't respond, then a teacher has to come do something. This is a very beautiful stick, the wish-fulfilling stick. It's not the kind that you'd hit somebody with. Hit somebody with a straight stick. I have one of those, too, but I don't hit anybody with it.

[23:26]

Sometimes I hit you with my mouth, but I... Maybe someday I'll hit somebody with a stick. Sometimes I feel like it. But I haven't done that yet. But sometimes people need it because it's so easy to just bog down in your own stuff. You know, a stick helps you to, I hope, helps you to snap out of it, snap out of your conditioned way of doing things. So every student, when you come to practice, it's kind of an auspicious time, you know, if you connect. Sometimes you don't connect. Sometimes a person will come to practice and it's not the right time. They'll appreciate it, but they won't be able to do it.

[24:29]

And it's just not the right time. Something else, you know, they have to do something else first. So you get a glimpse of practice and then they go away and deal with their karma. And then many years later, sometime later, they'll come back and they'll be ready to practice. And then you can take up something. And so sometimes people are really ready to practice and they get into practice in a very, they can kind of glide in, you know, it's right time. Circumstances are right, time is right, everything, conditions are all right. But eventually, boom, you come up against some big problem. And that's where your real practice starts, is with that problem. And that problem is the basis of your koan. And at that point,

[25:35]

the teacher can help, should be able to help to guide you and point out the koan or help you to see it so that you can continue. And then you may get through some barrier and then you're practicing easily again and then boom. It's just like life. When we we go easy for a while when things are going well, and then suddenly, or little by little, we begin to get confused, and then a little more confused, and then pretty soon things start getting very heavy, and we get into this funk, or we get very tense, and we don't know what to do. But that's a very good point to be at, because if you continue, you break through that confusion.

[26:36]

and then you're on another level. And then everything's going well, and then little by little, you begin to get confused again. And things start turning badly, and it gets to be like this again. And then if you continue, boom, you break through that barrier, and then you're on another level. So the confusion and the difficulties that you have are not bad. It's just that there are two sides to our practice and our life. One side is clarity, the other side is confusion. And they're both correct. They're both right practice. And if you know how to accept your confusion and your difficulty and practice with it, then you're sure to come out the other side.

[27:37]

If you don't, then you just go on in that way, if you don't have any way of dealing with it. So practice is how you deal with that. The teacher also gets confused, has those two sides also. But the thing about the teacher is the teacher is convinced that of the practice and how it knows how to deal with it. It knows that there is a way to deal with it. But the teacher has the same problems. No one is free of that. And because the teacher has the same problems, The teacher can be a teacher. If the teacher didn't have the same problems, it would be more difficult.

[28:44]

Anyway, would you like to discuss some of this? Do you have any questions? Well, the teacher's karma, I think in this case, adds up to the teacher's experience, because the teacher's karma shouldn't interfere. It's not that the teacher is free of karma, but the teacher is aware of karma, and aware of the purity of the teaching, as well as karma. So the teacher has karma, but the teacher also has some freedom from that karma.

[29:52]

And the teachers should be able to help the student to be free of their karma, not get rid of karma, not get rid of ego, but have some freedom within it. So if the teacher comes on like a Puritan, it depends on how pure the teacher is really, but if the teacher comes on like a Puritan too much and hides their own karma, hides their own defense, that situation won't progress too far. So the teacher can use his own karma to help as a teaching device by showing his own shortcomings and being open, being very open. You can appreciate both sides of a person if a person is very open, not hiding anything.

[31:00]

we always appreciate somebody who's very open about both sides. And that person is, if you see someone like that, even if they don't call themselves a teacher, they're usually, they're a good person to, as an example, of a teacher without being a teacher. Because everything they do is, you know, this is it. But the teacher has to be careful, you know. Especially in our... I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but especially in our particular time where men and women are equal. Because it sets up a whole different set of relationships and ways of dealing with people than in the past. I was thinking of Carmen

[32:06]

There's karma, you have a personality that creates a style. Some people have one style and others have another. And you use that to strengthen your teaching. Some are short and some are long. And then there's karma in terms of a nasty habit of appearing at the wrong time. So there's that type of karma as well. I appreciate your answer. Yeah. The other side of that is that if the teacher is open about that karma, that problem, that the students usually help the teacher. So it's not a one-way street. Sometimes the student is the teacher, even though their positions are different. Positions are different.

[33:10]

But function, sometimes, is the reverse, and it should be. Well, two things. I think that the teacher's karma is really, it's nice that you said that, but it's very important. If the teacher had no kind of personality imperfections, the student really, it would be too easy, because the student wouldn't have to do any work. I think a teacher's imperfections demand that a student has to really do work and figure out where the teaching is and hunt it. Whereas if the teacher were just perfect, it just won't be there. I also wonder, Given all this context, I understand that in Japan, in some way, everybody always has a teacher. Everybody always has a teacher? Yes. I mean, teachers always have teachers.

[34:12]

And there's a kind of system there, acknowledging that that's useful. Do you see a kind of, do you see a need for that here, or do you see something in that direction happening? Yeah, I think everybody should have a teacher. And, you know, when you become, when you have Dharma transmission, it makes you independent, to be independent. that's your teacher. For instance, when Hoitsu, Hojo-san, gave me dharma transmission, he became my teacher, actually. The person that gives you dharma transmission is called your original teacher, or the teacher that you always have.

[35:17]

You don't change that teacher. It doesn't mean you can't have other teachers, That person becomes your teacher. So I have that kind of relationship with him. And I plan to pursue it, actually. I want to go back to Japan again next year for a little while. And also, I want to study with him some more. and evolve that relationship. So I think, yes, it's good. Sometimes, though, dharma becomes the teacher's teacher. When Shakyamuni Buddha, according to the Theravada tradition,

[36:22]

When Shakyamuni Buddha died, they asked him, who will succeed you? And he said, just practice the Dharma. The Dharma is my successor. And if you follow the Dharma, and if you really follow the Dharma, then that's my legacy. Except that the problem is that everyone Everyone can't do that. And in order to follow the Dharma, you need the Buddha. You need some guidance. And the guidance, it's just too hard to do it by yourself. So the guidance is the teacher and the Sangha. So, in Zen tradition, The teacher is the Buddha.

[37:24]

That's why there's all this obeisance to the teacher, traditionally. You come into the doksan room and you make three prostrations. I don't ask you to do that. Just bow, standing up, it's okay. but I don't consider myself some special person outside of yourself. If you bow to me, I bow to you. In Theravada tradition, an older monk receives vows but doesn't give them back. If you go to the corner down here to where they have the Theravada monks from Thailand, and you bow to them, they won't bow back to you. One reason is because you're a lay person. But even for a monk, to bow to the older monk, the older monk doesn't bow back to the younger monk.

[38:33]

It's very hierarchical. I'm not sure if they even recognize us as Buddhists. We've had so many examples of bad guru relationships in recent months and years. Could you say something about the attitude of the student in maintaining his own integrity of spirit? Yeah. The student, I think, it's good to be respectful to the teacher. and that a teacher is respectful to the student, you know, it's natural. But you shouldn't be afraid to speak your mind, and you should feel independent. Suzuki Roshi, I remember him saying, when the student meets the teacher, the student should leave the teacher right away.

[39:43]

That doesn't mean that you should go away, but it means you should establish yourself as yourself and not get caught up as an appendage to the teacher. You should always question. So, when the teacher meets the student, then that's a relationship. When there's no teacher and no student, there's no relationship. That's oneness. It takes two to make a relationship. The Dharma transmission is like that. When the student and the teacher are really one, then there isn't even a relationship. But then your relationship continues. because you can't operate that way. But the student should have some independence.

[40:49]

That's what actually what the teacher is trying to do is to get the student to be independent. But means to stand up on your own feet. But doesn't mean that you should be standoffish, you know, or It's really good to merge with the teacher. That doesn't take away your integrity. To always be at odds does not establish your independence. But to be close and still be independent is independence. But relationship takes many forms, many different forms. But a Zen teacher and a student is not a guru relationship. You know, guru is a kind of Indian word that, you know, doesn't mean teacher, but in its present sense, as we know it, it stands for some kind of hierarchical being.

[42:00]

I mean, somebody at a high scale of the hierarchy, you know, what the people do obeisance to, or something, and you should... The guru commands the disciples, and they do all of his bidding. That's not a Zen relationship. Although, sometimes it touches on that. I won't say that that's... With some people, it does. In Japan, they really expect the student to... The student is expected to really obey the teacher. But one thing they have to remember is that here in America, you know, we have a lot of independent people, a lot of older people and established people, and you can't expect to have the same kind of relationship as you do with young people who, you know, in Japan sometimes they come into the temples, or they used to,

[43:01]

at 10 years old, or 14, you know, very young. And the teachers had this kind of disciplinary attitude toward these young people. And it goes along with Japanese character, and it goes along with the old method of teaching children. And that also carried over into all of their behavior. But we can't act like that in America. You don't have to. Sometimes you wish that you could, but in certain cases, you know, you want to beat somebody. You know? But I think we have to be more subtle. Maybe not. Bill? Yeah, I'm interested in kind of telling you a little bit more about how we work it out here. No, it's okay.

[44:09]

You said to meet with the teacher. Yeah. Do you mean in the practice time? Yeah. People would go, they'd sign up. Yeah. Have a specific interview by signing up on the sign-up sheet. Yeah. And how often for somebody, say just a regular practitioner? It doesn't matter. As often as they want. If a person wants to talk too much, I mean talk a lot, then, you know, we can just set up some kind of other way of doing it. Sometimes people just have a lot to say, you know, and that's not the space for that. So then we just arrange some kind of way to get together and talk in a more casual way.

[45:14]

Is there a difference between a student and a disciple in the relationship, or are those interchangeable? Well, I think that there is a difference. There are a lot of students and maybe a few disciples of somebody. A disciple would be someone who really felt that that relationship they had was a bond. So that person wouldn't go looking for another teacher. Or even if they did, looking for another teacher, it would be through common consent. You know, sometimes a disciple will go on a pilgrimage, or, you know, go visit other teachers. That's, that's, okay, but it's, if you leave a teacher and you're a disciple, then you should do something to end the relationship.

[46:29]

But, Not all the students are teachers, are disciples. A disciple is someone very close who wants to continue with the teacher and maybe eventually get that person's dharma transmission. If somebody's here for several years, should they, in Dokuson, bring this up as a topic with you about whether or not they're your student That's a good idea. I've never emphasized that, and the reason why is because even though I've been fairly independent for a long time, and we've been practicing together for many, many years, before I had Dharma transmission, I didn't feel I was in a position to have that kind of relationship.

[47:31]

in that way. And since I've had dharma transmission, I haven't said anything about it either. But it's more, it's, now that you bring it up, now that you bring it up, I think that it's a good question and it's a good way to formalize relationship. And it would be good if people who have been practicing for a long time just discuss the question with me, if they want to. Okay, good questions Bill, thanks. So, anyway, I hope that, I encourage you to come to next Saturday's Beginners, everybody, if you can, next Saturday's introductory session.

[48:44]

Thank you.

[48:48]

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