Well, it's nice to be back to Green Gulch in the fog after a summer of traveling. My entire family and I were in Latin America this summer. One son was in Paraguay for the summer, which is very far away, Paraguay. Another son was in Costa Rica, and my wife and I, separately, together, but not with our sons, were traveling here and there in several countries. And somebody asked me, what was the high point of your trip? That was a very difficult question. There were so many high points, it was hard to think of one. There was a wonderful short session in a little fishing village called Chacala.

[01:09]

Real small, we had about 15 people or so. And people from the village and from the nearby town came to the session. And it was very enjoyable for me to be able to practice Zen with them. I was very, I felt very honored and I understood a lot more about our practice in practicing with them. So for me, that was one high point, but there were a lot of others. And I think the trip was very good for me. It helped me to see and learn quite a bit. I think it's always important to remember that this is a big world and there are lots of people in it, and that although all of us human beings are basically the same, also

[02:15]

there are a lot of differences. It's hard to compare one place with another. But I especially enjoyed the people and the way of life in Mexico. And I was really awed by the complex and really wonderful culture that you find in Mexico. And I think we have much to learn from the Mexicans. Anyway, when you travel, you always are impressed with how big the world is. And you remember something you knew before, but wasn't so immediately present in you, that the life here and the problems that we have are only one situation among many, many situations in this big world. Sometimes in schools, they have a map of the world on the wall.

[03:22]

And that map of the world around here always has the United States in the middle. And even though you don't think about it, sort of unconsciously, you look and you say, oh yes, of course, the United States is right in the middle of the world. And actually, the map that we usually see is slightly distorted, it really is, it makes the United States look somewhat larger than it is relative to the rest of the world. Actually Mexico is a pretty big country. I don't know if Mexico is as big as the United States, but it may be close, or it may be a little bigger, I'm not sure. And it has just as much variety, more probably, in cultures and landscapes as we have in this

[04:25]

country. Last year I was teaching high school and in my room there was a map of Africa. In this usual map that we have of the world with the United States in the middle, you don't realize how big Africa is. Did you know that Africa is really huge? You could fit about five or six United States' inside of Africa, did you know that? This map in my room had that, it had the big map of Africa and then it had the outline of the United States and how many times it would fit inside the continent of Africa. It was several times. And you don't know this because usually the map you see, the United States is pretty big and then South America is kind of small underneath and Africa. There's some reason for this other than just out-and-out prejudice, some mathematical reason that someone could explain. They recently did better calculations and discovered this and now there are more accurate maps but you don't see them too much.

[05:27]

So, here we are, living under these particular conditions that we're living under here in this place and elsewhere other people are living under different conditions. And, you know, especially when you're traveling you are tempted to compare, but comparing is fun and it's interesting, it's imaginary though as we know, it's a function of language. It's hard to compare. But wherever you go, I think, at least I am always really amazed by the life that I see people living and often very inspired to see the way people live and what they do, how they survive so beautifully despite their difficulties.

[06:37]

And I'm reminded what a great thing it is to be a human being. We have these marvelous bodies, you know, ten fingers and toes and you can walk and talk. We have such a variety of marvelous histories and cultures all over the world. I did a lot of reading about the Aztec Indians and the Mayan Indians. Amazing, you know, the things that we human beings have done. And then we have this wonderful set of sense organs that create for us such a colorful and marvelous world. So many different colored fish, you know, blue ones and yellow ones swimming in the coral reef off the coast of Belize.

[07:41]

Amazing, there could be such creatures. And howler monkeys and keel-billed toucans. Have you ever seen a keel-billed toucan? It's a great thing to see. We saw many of them, great big bills way out of proportion to their bodies, bright yellow and red and blue, which I wouldn't see if it weren't for this way that I'm organized with my sense organs. Other animals and creatures see something different, you know. They never saw a keel-billed toucan, only human beings can see this. So it's fabulous, you know, that we have this set up. We can see all of this. So I hope that we all get to enjoy it for a while longer. It's very nice. But of course, also, in addition to this, wherever you go in the world, you can notice,

[08:55]

if you have your eyes open, that it's also a bit of a problem also to be a human being. One thing I have noticed about us over the years that I have been alive is that we all need to be someone in particular. And this creates lots of difficulty. Because of this need that we have to be someone in particular, actually, many of us are paranoid most of the time. Now, when I say the word paranoid, you know, the real literal meaning of paranoid, you know, a kind of irrational, out of proportion fear of everything, is maybe the definition of paranoia. This is, I think, just an exaggeration of what may just be the most common human feeling.

[10:01]

So, I think deep down, everyone, at least everyone that I have ever met so far, is pretty insecure and pretty afraid. We are working hard all the time to be somebody, to build up something in our lives, now that nowadays they say, get a life. We're all trying very hard to get a life. So this is a big job, you know. And while we're doing this, I think we realize somewhere in us, for some of us, it's not even too conscious, but it's there anyway. We realize that this whole project is slightly shaky.

[11:05]

That it would be very easy at any moment for someone or something to do away with all of it, to pull us down, pull us apart. I think we all know this. And so we're always kind of looking over our shoulder a little bit, as we're doing whatever we're doing, to see who's behind us. And we're always slightly worried about that which is outside of us. That somehow it, or they, or he, or she, or them, will disapprove of us, or misunderstand us, or worse of all, completely ignore us. Now, I'm very lucky. I really have a great life. And I have many people who are quite kind to me, and have positive feelings toward me.

[12:15]

And I get wonderful feedback almost every day that I'm really a worthwhile person. I do. It's great. Wouldn't you like that? But I know that it wouldn't take very much for all these people to become very disappointed in me. To dislike me even. Or at least to feel as if I were not such a terrific person as they thought. And if this happened to me, you know, if all these people who are telling me how wonderful I am suddenly were to tell me that I'm not so great, and that I'd better fix myself up, and so forth, I would begin to believe them, and I would become unhappy. And this great self that I enjoy every day would start, little by little, unraveling.

[13:23]

And it would just sort of fall off me like a raindrop, falling down my arm. It would be just about as easy and as fast as taking off my robes. I took off my robes now. There would be this pile of robes over there, and this poor soul over here, naked, despondent. It would be really sad, and you wouldn't want to see it. Then I would really be in a fix, huh? It would be awful. I'm kind of real sad just thinking about it right now. I'd better take a rest and just sort of digest this. So, anyway, it's not just me, right? You're like that too. Aren't we all? So we have to be tough. We have to have big defenses to protect ourselves,

[14:30]

and lots of good bedtime stories to tell ourselves every night so that we can go to sleep. Now, I'm sure that some of you understand exactly what I'm talking about, and some of you maybe don't. And if you're a young person, you will understand what I'm talking about. As a young person would. And if you're an old person, you'll understand what I'm talking about a little differently. But maybe you don't understand. Maybe someday you will. Someday, you'll be walking along and you'll fall down. Very far. A lot farther than you thought you could. Or maybe one night, in the middle of the night, you'll wake up and you won't know who you are. Or you'll wake up and know who you are and wish very deeply that it were otherwise.

[15:41]

So, if these things happen to you, then you'll know what I'm talking about. And if they haven't happened to you yet, please enjoy yourself while you are waiting. So, whatever we are, or whatever we have, in this life, is very uncertain. Uncertainty is the truest, the deepest, and the most beautiful characteristic of our lives. If we try to avoid uncertainty, if we try to deny uncertainty,

[16:47]

as we do so frequently, we will be a little paranoid, a little stressed out, and a little nervous. Actually, we may think that we're very privileged here in America, here in this very beautiful county that we live in, this very beautiful and wealthy county that we live in. But in a way, we're not doing all that well, because a lot of us are stressed out and nervous. In Central America, people are pretty aware of the uncertainty of their lives, and although they are stressed out too, they may be less stressed out in some ways than we are. At least in their case, the uncertainty is very clear, and it's very straightforward. I would say today that the practice of Zen is the practice of embracing uncertainty,

[17:55]

of facing uncertainty, of picking it up, and finally letting it go. You know, when you embrace uncertainty, now think about this, when you embrace uncertainty, it is no longer uncertainty, right? Uncertainty is the one thing that is not uncertain, right? Think about that. It's the one thing that we can truly rely on, it's the only thing that we can truly rely on, that we can truly have faith in. Uncertainty can never, ever let us down. Right? So uncertainty is really just another word for Buddha. Don't you think so?

[18:59]

I take refuge in uncertainty. I find my peace, I find my ultimate comfort and support in uncertainty, the true mark of all existence. This is our path in Zen. So to embrace uncertainty and to find that true faith in living, that only embracing uncertainty can give us, we really need to let go of ourselves. In Zen, there's an old phrase, to pull out all the pegs and wedges. Our self is a kind of stuck together,

[20:05]

shimmed together with a bunch of pegs and wedges to kind of hold it up, or it's stuck together with chewing gum. Once you take out the chewing gum, take out the pegs and wedges, and let all the parts just fall into a heap, then it's all okay. Whatever happens to us is our path, whether it's good or bad. If our mind or our body falls apart, we may not like it, but it'll be okay. This will be our path, this will be our practice, this will be our way. So our practice is actually very, very wide. Whichever way we turn, whichever way circumstances come out, we will find our path. It actually doesn't matter that much what happens to us.

[21:08]

Whatever it is, good or bad, we will work with it, we will practice with it. And nothing is really all that important. Or, every little thing is absolutely important. These are just two ways of saying the same thing. And if we keep on with our firm commitment to practice in this way with our life, embracing uncertainty, facing experience, whatever it is, then it's guaranteed that everything will turn out okay. It's guaranteed that everything will turn out okay. I don't say it will turn out perfectly, you understand. I don't say it will turn out the way we like it or the way we planned.

[22:10]

But it will turn out okay. A life is always life, death is always death. Well, this might not be such a marvelous thing in a way, you might think, but actually it's the only thing. It's the only option when you think about it. And it's true, I believe, that if we stop holding on to our desire for ourselves too much, we can actually achieve a kind of realistic and lasting happiness in this life. And when we do that, many things are possible and we can actually, in a simple way, benefit other people, benefit others. To achieve this is not the work of one day or one week,

[23:12]

a workshop, you know, or a New Year's resolution. It's something that we must put sincere effort into over a long, long period of time. And the effort itself, after a while, turns into the achievement, and that's why we don't get impatient about it. But it is necessary for us to take ourselves very seriously. And this is maybe the thing that I appreciated the most in so many of the people that I met and observed in Latin America. They really knew how to take themselves seriously, really seriously. Now, by this I don't mean that they or anyone

[24:19]

who takes themselves seriously is, you know, sober all the time and never laughs and tells jokes. I certainly don't mean that a person who takes himself or herself seriously is someone who overestimates, you know, the value of their own thinking or their own desires. This is not what I mean. I think to take ourselves really seriously means to be able to do what we need to do, no matter what. And I think it means being able to understand truly and accept really our place within our community, within our human community and within our world community, non-human community. I came away from my journey with the impression that it's probably

[25:23]

easier to take yourself seriously if you have to use your hands and your body every day to feed yourself. And it may be a little bit harder for us because our world, our society, is so very, very abstract, it's really abstract. And so I think our sense of ourself is very abstract. It makes it a little more complicated, I think. So I feel, again, coming back, so lucky, so happy that we have inherited, in the midst of all this, just by chance and by the effort of so many, many people over the generations who have come before us,

[26:27]

we have been lucky enough... Oh, is it a fire? What is it? Is that a watch? Is it a loud watch? Was it one of those beepers? No. Is it a beeper, you think? Whose was it? Where is it? Where is it? Is it under the tongue? Does somebody have to go make a phone call? Are we forgetting something we should have been doing? Nobody knows, really? Maybe you're... Oh, oh, oh. Okay. Amazing. Alarm clock, is it? Big, big alarm. What was I saying about inheriting? Yeah.

[27:39]

We inherited. What did we inherit? We inherited this way of getting serious about our lives. Which is so simple, but we probably would have never thought of it, you know? If we sat around and said, let's think of something here, we never would have thought of this. So we're lucky that such a thing fell into our laps. I feel personally very lucky that this has fallen into my lap. To be able to just sit down and get my spine pretty straight, stretch it out a little. Put my hands in my lap with my thumb tips just touching. Be with my breath.

[28:42]

Let go of my thoughts as they come up. See what I'm feeling, but let go of it. Be present with whatever arises. See that something arising outside of me, something arising inside of me, not so different. Just to sit there with all my faculties open and at ease. What a great thing. Very helpful. And then to be able to just do something. You know, wash the dishes carefully. Or cut vegetables or dig potatoes. And to be able to do something for someone else.

[29:45]

All these things are necessary parts of our Zazen practice. We're very lucky that we have inherited this way. One time a monk asked Zen Master Zhaozhou, what is Zhaozhou? And Zhaozhou replied, East Gate, West Gate, North Gate, South Gate. The master's name was Zhaozhou, but like many of the Zen masters of old, the place in which he lived and taught was also called Zhaozhou. The monk was asking about the nature of Master Zhaozhou's real self.

[30:46]

And the master answered by pointing to the place, which can be entered by many, many gates, and all the gates are always open. It's not that the master was giving a trick answer or trying to fool the student or engaging in rhetoric. It's just that he was taking himself very, very seriously. And taking the monk very, very seriously. With no pegs and wedges, with no abstract sense of himself apart from the fluid and uncertain world in which he moved day by day. Great Zhaozhou had nothing to win, nothing to gain, and nothing to lose by deceiving the monk or anyone.

[31:51]

And so he just told him the truth as he saw it without adding anything. East Gate, West Gate, South Gate, North Gate. So this is a big and wonderful world. There are many, many gates. It's great to go on a long trip and it's great to come home. It's great to sit and it's great to get up and do something else. There's a time to talk and a time to stop. There's a time to be young

[32:54]

and a time to be old. A time to be alive and a time to give up life. It's a big and a mysterious world and each one of us is part of it. All of the atoms and molecules in the world is organized around each one of us. And each one has his or her place. His or her contribution. So please let's all of us take ourselves seriously and make the most of this nice opportunity to be alive. Nice to see you again. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[34:28]

Yeah. Can you come down in the week to help? I mean I can't do it today but... Thank you. So that was that and now this is the part of the morning which is sometimes referred to as question and answer. But I usually refer to it as discussion. So please raise whatever you would like to talk about and feel free to respond to people's questions. I don't have to do all the work. People can do also. Yes. Your talk today was very apropos

[35:29]

for me thinking about going to Latin America. My life is very uncertain right now. I guess I'm in a pretty high state. I just left work and now I'm selling my house. Like I don't... There's a lot of uncertainty right now. And I feel a little scared about it but yet I'm excited about it too. And wherever I put my foot, I feel it's my path. You know, like you said in your talk. Well, congratulations. That's wonderful. Good luck with it. Twelve years ago I sold my house and I still don't have one. No, and I'm still here. That's good. Homeless monk. I've never asked a question like this before. I don't feel like I have it formed quite well but maybe other people can help me.

[36:31]

Something about, you know, accepting everything that comes as your path and how that fits in or plays with or balances with keeping your boundaries. Yeah, this is a really important point. I kind of... Whenever I speak about the path in that way I always am confident that someone will ask this question. Because I don't want to make it more complicated in the talk by bringing it up. It's a very important question. I think the most important thing is to make a realistic assessment of where we are right now and do what is most comfortable and realistic for us right now. I mean, you know, if you read the Jataka tales it says that the Buddha, you know, sacrificed his whole body

[37:33]

before he became Buddha. As a rabbit he leapt into a fire so that he could feed a hungry tiger. And he did many things. He lopped off his arm and gave it to people who needed an arm and stuff like that. And these are all tales that are to tell us that self-sacrifice and helping others is very important and the most important thing in spiritual practice. And yet, if we give this as an instruction for people it wouldn't work too well because most of us are not like that right now. So we have to see what is it that we can really do and how can we make our space bigger and bigger, little by little starting from the space that we're occupying right now. So we have to work like that. Knowing that our aspiration is to really be able to let go and to really be kind and giving to others. We can have that aspiration and know that at this moment we're only able to do so much.

[38:33]

And that's for us. That's great. That's good. And there's no comparisons. We're all on our own path. So in that way, we do what we can do. And it's good. So there's more to this, but I'm a little rusty. I haven't been doing this for a while. Steve, what did I forget? Thanks, Roman. I don't know. I was thinking about the same thing when you said nothing is important and every tiny little thing is infinitely important. And it's like a kind of destruction of language that you do. It's a destruction of linear thinking and conceptual thinking. It's the only thing I can make out of that. It's a boundary thing. I need language and concepts. I need my beaver. Everyone in the room is going to think of me as this guy with the beaver. But it was so loud and clear, you know.

[39:38]

Is there more that we should talk about? Maybe I want to check with you and see if there's more to say. I guess what I heard, how I processed what you said, was that the giving away of ourselves that a lot of us have a problem with is not the same as that other giving away. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's good. Let's leave it at that. I just want to respond because I think it's a really important question and I'm talking about boundaries in my own life now. I used to feel that I didn't deserve to have a boundary because I wasn't enough of a self. But that, whether self-deprecation or the vanity, whether inflation or deflation, is not the self that can give away. One can't give on an empty spirit.

[40:51]

So my smaller self, which I circumscribed a boundary around to protect myself because of my experiences, my childhood, etc., and my voracious Jewish parenting, which showed they would eat me alive. And they trained me to feel so worthless that I wanted to sacrifice myself to have them eat me alive. Because to have a life was just to have a sense of guilt continually for having a life because my parents were psychically and emotionally hungry. So shouldn't I offer myself as Isaac did to Abraham? But, you know, we live in a submarine canopy. I'm not in Brooklyn anymore. I don't have to do this anymore. But I'm writing a book. It's called From I to Own. What I'm going to say is the only thing I have been able to give away

[42:02]

is that it's been a grace that has shown me that there was something in me that doesn't need a boundary because it's part of everything. And I went to a yoga ashram once in the Pocono Mountains by mistake. I thought it was a free retreat. And this Jewish woman, who became a swami, anyway, tried to explain it to me. But the point is that one night they were singing Hare Krishna. And in this chant, something happened to me in which something larger than myself was available. And when that came forward, which I have never seen or had the feeling of love, all I wanted to do was kiss people's feet. Now, trust me, I'm not... Usually you don't do that. Everything, like a rainbow light, a rembrandt light just descended on people. I could barely see them except the flicker of light, the intensity of light in their eyes or the lack of it. And the only thought that went through my mind is that they only knew how much they were loved. This went on for 18 hours.

[43:03]

I was 21. And, of course, I never said if I only knew how much I was loved. But that was from a greater self that had 18 hours of kissing feet to give. But if I was going to do that as me, Cheryl, you know, I would want people to invite me over to their house for dinner. I would... Steve would want to see my resume. So I think, like, just like I think I am in the moment, who I'm identified with in the moment as defining me determines whether giving away is just mushing up my boundaries and just giving of a small self that no one really needs. Or something greater, where grace gives through me and shows me that I'm not losing anything and I am greater than I ever expected and yet it's not me at the same time. So it's only by grace for me that I've ever been able to give. Yeah, I remember one time I was reading a Dharma book and I was really amazed when it was about the practice of giving.

[44:04]

And it said that... Let's see if I can get this right. There's two kinds of self-clinging. One kind is where you cling to yourself and are attached to yourself. And the other kind is where you hate yourself and you belittle yourself. And logically we think if you hate yourself and belittle yourself, well that's not self-clinging. But actually it's just another style. It's not too different, actually. It's not too different. So the first one is, you know, you like yourself, you think you're a big shot and all that. The other one is you hate yourself, you push yourself away, you're always putting yourself down. So both are forms of self-clinging and we have to be skillful in working with them and what would be a good practice for someone who has one style of self-clinging might be a terrible practice for someone who has another style of self-clinging. So we have to be careful and realistic and be aware of what it is, what medicine we need at that time. Yes? I have a problem with content. And it goes along with all of this where

[45:10]

let's say a small example would be I would make plans with someone and would think that that was going to happen and they blew me off, like didn't call me or whatever. And so I have difficulty in, well, you know, should I just let that go and just let it go and everything will be okay or it's like, well that kind of hurt me, you know, and that's my time. I get very responsive. Some people get very defensive and angry. And then what happens to you when they do that? I get very sad and empathize so much with their pain that I lose sense of, you know, well, I just wanted to let you know that that didn't feel good for me. And I guess I don't like those conflicts

[46:13]

because I don't want to lose that friendship or whatever it may be or even that person, even if it's a stranger. I want to show them respect and kindness but I have a hard time because I think I need to do something to show my own self respect and kindness as well. And it's hard for me to know what the balance is. Well, I think it's admirable the way that you're practicing with it and you should keep going like that, I think. It's good. I mean, if someone did something nasty to you and you really looked at them and saw, oh, because of their life and their situation they really had to do that to me and they couldn't help it and I really and truly don't mind and I just let it go and the next day I see them, I still love them then there's no need to say anything, right? But if the reality is that when they do that you do feel badly the next time you see them you're seeing a person who's hurt you

[47:13]

and so you feel funny around them then it's much better to tell them and clear the air. Sometimes you do that, like you say and then they get even more mad but you have to try and work with it and it's not always going to turn out right but you get the feel of it and you grow and change and other people are changing and it's a fluid world and see what happens. But I think the way you're practicing with it sounds, I mean, that's what I would do, I think. So keep it up and see how it is. Yes? Maybe it doesn't have to be if both things are true that you did feel hurt but at the same time you still feel loving. Sure. It doesn't have to be a or or a but we could acknowledge that we are entitled to all of these things and we are components of many feelings. Sure. Yeah, I think the more you study your feelings the more obvious it is that you have many always contradictory feelings about almost everything. Many, a whole range of them.

[48:14]

Some of which are real powerful some of which are less strong and a whole, yeah. I couldn't agree more, yes. Some, I'll just follow through that. If there is somebody that I admire because they really offer a lot to the world and yet I find repeatedly so many personal human imperfections that trip me and I keep on being tripped over and over again even though intellectually I know better emotionally I'm pulled right into it. Well, you know, my feeling is that the sitting practice that we do and the practice of awareness of the body that we do and awareness of thoughts and feelings helps us to expand our sense of what's tolerable and what we can work with comfortably. So, with patience and with continuously working like that

[49:17]

I think we get to where we can work with these more complicated situations. Depends on the circumstances, right? I mean, sometimes somebody like that needs a kick in the pants, right? You just tell them. You say, look, you know, you're really blah, [...] blah and I mean, I've been your friend for 27 years and boy, you know, you always do this and it's really a drag for this person and that person and I wish you'd stop doing it and I'm not even going to come see you anymore until you do because I'm mad. I'll see you later. Or, but sometimes, no. Sometimes you have to have a lot of patience and maybe, you know, somebody could never change. Never change. They will never change. And, well, what are we going to do about that? Should we should we stop relating to them and go away? Well, maybe we should if it's painful to us so much that it's really retarding our life and we feel like we're not helping them and we're not helping ourselves maybe we should but maybe not. Maybe we say, well these destructive and nasty foibles they're not going to change and I'm just going to

[50:20]

do my best to relate to them kindly. I know what's happening here and I'm not going to participate and get sucked into this kind of stuff but, you know I don't know. Every situation is different. So you just try to think what's the best thing to do and what's the most realistic thing to do and do your best and deal with the consequences. I don't know. Let's see. I want to get somebody who hasn't spoken. I want to try to go around. Yes. I want to compliment you for your recognition of Latin America Mexico the Aztecs and so on especially given the anti-Hispanic sentiment in Congress you know the semi-states and fascists around Yeah, yeah. I really think that was really real. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to be a Buddhist priest and you and Yvonne are two of my favorites. Oh. Yeah, well I was really impressed with people down there and the whole situation and it's so odd, isn't it? That it's like

[51:22]

you know, here's this incredibly complex interesting culture that has so much to offer and then you transplant it over here and people are blind. It's like people are blind. They don't see like people see Mexican-Americans are not don't see it, you know. People don't see the culture the life. It's truly an extraordinary thing. It just goes to show you the incredible multi-faceted wackiness of human beings that this could happen. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Right, I mean. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's really and I maybe I'm I mean, who knows what's really going on but I had the impression somehow that in Latin America that and somebody else who was traveling just came back from a trip said they felt the same way that even in Little Village you know everybody has TV in Little Village they have TV anyway. They know

[52:24]

but they seem to have a pretty good sense of what's going on here. Pretty good sense, you know. And we have no idea what's going on there. We have a totally distorted and upside-down cock-eyed idea about what is going on there but they pretty much know and they know that we have an upside-down and cock-eyed idea. It's amazing, you know. It's really a very impressive situation. It's like the whole world is sitting around thinking boy, these guys are really are they ever going to and we're sitting there thinking, well we really know what's happening. It's a very funny situation. But however it is doesn't it seem as if there should be a more equal distribution of wealth? Doesn't it seem that way? It seems like kind of there will be. Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. It's not that easy to undo this structure that we have.

[53:24]

It's so complicated and all knotted together that if we all resolved you know sitting here we're going to change our lives and then we'd go home and then we'd say well, yeah, but how am I going to get to work without my car and then I have to move but then the real estate is so high and I can't and then after about a couple of weeks we would say well I changed the brand of toilet paper I use so somehow I mean, I don't know I don't mean to be pessimistic about it but it seems pretty complicated to me I mean, I'm sure something will happen little by little and we all have to make effort and really do try to change our lives but it seems pretty hard the whole economy depends on the highways and highways depend on the cars and the cars depend on the gasoline gasoline is almost gone so I don't know something will happen don't worry yes yes

[54:24]

I have two big questions that are because of recent experience are linked in my mind but we may not be able to deal with both of them either I want to know what Zen says about dealing with rage and what Zen says about dealing with suicide or what it says about suicide well I think well I always sort of get confused when people ask what does Zen say or what does Buddhism say because of course you know there's many different people who are doing Zen and they will have many different responses and there isn't a Zen Pope so I have to ask what do I say so I have to ask what do I say and you know so I can think about it what do I think so rage well I think rage is a reality I mean when we are enraged we are really enraged our heart starts beating faster

[55:27]

we find it harder to speak we may our breath may be short a tremendous volume of feelings and thoughts rushes into the mind so that's pretty real that's all sort of noticeable phenomenon so there's no use denying that there's such a thing as rage or telling someone oh you shouldn't feel rage but what would that good would that do because feeling rage is manifestly so so as always you know and whatever happens to us how do we work with the reality of what arises in our body and mind I think you know you should study rage I mean if you are enraged and you do something in your rage that will express your rage and alleviate it a lot of times what you do creates a lot of difficulties afterward you know everything changes

[56:29]

and all of a sudden you're in jail or you're full of remorse about what you've just done so if you kind of experiment with working with your rage in that way it really becomes rapidly clear to you that's not a really great way of working with your rage it's not it's counterproductive so but denying that your rage is there is not a possibility really it's a one could have a fantasy life you know and people do of course have rage that they deny and then live very twisted lives and with the with the danger that eventually that rage will come out in even more destructive ways than if they had punched somebody in the nose on the first day by the tenth day they shot twenty people you know so to splatter our rage is not too good to deny it or get rid of it is not too good so we're left with a very uncomfortable possibility

[57:29]

of just feeling our rage and being with it and understanding it and being uncomfortable I'm sorry but I don't know what else we could do you know if we have that rage we have it because there are causes and conditions that produced it in us and so and again to me the practices of buddhadharma and this is my prejudice right I practice zen and I this is what I know about and I know that the practices that I do help me to widen my possibility of dealing with something like this so I can you know maybe I can get through a day of feeling enraged breathing into it being aware of it knowing what I could do to help myself maybe like for me if I get in a very strong emotional state it's very good if I take a walk it helps me if I go and work in the kitchen chopping a little bit you know and cooking something washing dishes cleaning the house these are things that are very helpful to me and probably most people can find these things

[58:32]

helpful as a way of just getting through that moment when this rage arises and understanding you know the rage and the causes and conditions for the rage if there are causes and conditions that create rage in you that can be alleviated then by all means once the outraged feeling subsides as it will because everything subsides you know eventually once it subsides then why don't you begin to examine and do something about those causes and conditions little by little and maybe then you won't be so enraged because you've done something to put away those causes and conditions but there are times when you know you're just stuck in a bad space and that's it you're just trying to live with it so in suicide please don't anybody commit suicide it's not good for you I don't see any advantage whatsoever in committing suicide no matter how bad one's life is even at the moment before death

[59:32]

a wholesome thought is very powerful and there are many friends in this world many good people walking around even if you're totally miserable and hate yourself and you don't even know any of those people you might just like walk out the door and bump into one on the street and get to know them by chance you know so you never know and it wouldn't be good to commit suicide it won't help it won't help your life you know it won't help your death will not be happy your time in the in-between state will be kind of crummy and then after that the rest of us will continue to suffer more as a result of your suicide so I don't think it's good now on the other hand if you're if you are really dying because your physical life is being cut off and you know there's no way that you're gonna live in any kind of reasonable way then I think it's okay to say now it's time to die and when death comes

[60:34]

as it naturally comes to me I will be here to work with it as best I can so I'm not eating anymore or I'm not gonna like go to the movies or something I'm just gonna stay here and quietly die but it's not so bad you know maybe friends will come visit me hang around it's kind of peaceful or maybe not maybe it's anguish but that's what I'm gonna do because it's not right for me to live anymore so to cooperate with the process of death I don't think it's the same as suicide suicide to me means like taking a gun and blowing your brains out or taking pills or whatever I don't think that's a good thing to do but this is my naive point of view because I haven't really dealt with it much and I'll think about it more that's how I feel now why do you think the time in between is coming? because you did something that you took a life you don't wanna take a life you know it's not good to take a life yes one thing in the buddhist teaching that helped me with suicide

[61:34]

and depression was then there is if you're feeling depressed to do something for somebody else you can throw a party you can come here and make muffins you can have a friend you can have dinner for a friend invite a friend down to dinner or someone who's in trouble call up and just listen to him and it really works I'm gonna move this whole table thank you whoops ah let's see yeah hi do you know the story of Ulimala that is retold in the Hunger Diaries I've heard it but tell me tell us all I'm really reflecting on that story this morning and it's a kind of response to the questions partly it can be seen as a response to the question about suicide it's a it's a it's a buddhist story and there's a man whose name is actually his real name is the non-violent one but he's born

[62:34]

with some dire predictions that he's going to be a terrible killer but he grows up wonderful and he's studying with his guru and he's so wonderful that people can see his fellow students can see the jealousy against him and incite his guru against him by saying that he's coming on to the guru's wife to produce the story the guru eventually gets convinced that this is the case and he tries to think of how he can ruin this person totally and the way he decides to ruin him is to tell him as his guru that what he needs to do and he won't understand this teaching this is crazy wisdom is to kill one thousand people and the young man resists this and says I could never do it he's very very harmless by nature and eventually he accepts this guru's urging that he should do what his teacher says and he goes away from the safety and happiness of his home

[63:35]

and he goes out to kill one thousand people having been told that he'll be liberated if he does that and he is transformed by this violent life that he's leading he shows nobody any mercy he kills people he gets ugly his whole life he can't recognize himself anymore he's just killing and killing people beg for mercy and he doesn't do it and he starts cutting off the finger of every victim and making a necklace of fingers so he can count because he loses the count and doesn't get to a thousand as he's nearing his last murder that he has to do towards this fantasy of liberation that he no longer even understands what he's thinking about he's just kind of madly doing

[64:36]

it but he knows he has to get to a thousand and he the Buddha comes and and like everyone else he says whoever you are prepare for your death I'm going to kill you and the Buddha is fearless and he starts and he keeps walking and he doesn't turn and somehow miraculously no matter how slowly and with Dignity the Buddha walks this man is running as hard as he can and can't catch up with him And this goes on and [...] till oh and then he says shout out to him Why why are you just walking and I can't catch up with you, and I'm running as hard as I can and I Think the answer he gives us Because I've stopped and you have something like that And then something happens to uncle Yamala and falls at his feet and says save me save me And the Buddha says, okay And The man I'm moving Mala wants to die. This is where we get to the suicide part. He has some deep

[65:39]

Awakening and he knows when he's done it. He wants to die and the Buddha says patience He said you wanted me to help you I said, okay No Isn't this you don't get to die this isn't the right time to die and then this man I'm going Wallace lives, which is the most painful thing he could choose to do and The Buddha helps him takes care of him hides him actually because the authorities are looking for him And he lives in the terrible pain of what everything that he's done all the violence that he's done But he stays alive and he turns out to have some power to help women in childbirth To help relieve their pain So people are scared of him and yet they let him come here to help what he can with his power And there's some final point. He's letting himself live with the knowledge of what he's done Sort of like normal suggesting to live with your rage to live with your terror

[66:40]

By the way, and then finally at some point I Guess when he's ready He feels all the weapons in the kingdom are coming at him stones everything comes at him his bones break his body breaks and Tears come on Feels peace And he feels gratitude At that point That Was beautifully told Person who's kind of retold the stories from the Jatakas and other old news stories is called brave Martin and

[67:49]

Publishers parallax principle I Read that story in the Pali Canon and in my recollection I don't remember the part about how he was tricked into his violence by his guru That must be another version In the version of Pali Canon, it just says that he was a very violent murderous persons, you know Yeah, it could be a Tibetan tradition it could be a Tibetan tradition of Yeah Yeah, it's probably because the in the Pali Canon they didn't have the tradition the guru tradition So it's probably the Tibetans told it that way over the generations. Yeah makes it a better story actually Yes The problem is the judgment that it shouldn't be there and that

[68:57]

I could make clearly for myself in a given situation Distinction between the feeling of the rage and need to express it in a destructive way It's starting to change so that I could just feel it as an energy it was just part of my energy like the light was or bliss or Orgasm anything like that was just another one bit and then I could find proper ways to do that meditations that intense expression of anger followed by deep silence and I know why I came to balance so that at least it wasn't like Rage is wrong. The ideal is to be Compassionate because every time I strove to be compassionate It was a repression of the opposite energy which was rage and the more I could be in my region that in a way that was Accepting and didn't hurt anyone else Less than a problem. So the whole thing was here it is. Yes, I can accept it. I can accept it sometimes

[70:00]

Yes, thank you that that really makes a lot of sense to me and I Think I think a great practice and this is sort of like what you're saying that the the practice of mindfulness of awareness especially of the body and of sensations is really important because then you get to notice the sensations of feeling enraged and you notice the thought of Judgment, so you notice. Oh here I am, you know, this is happening My heart is beating and so on and here I am with this persistent thought that I'm a bad person for being enraged I'm not supposed to be enraged and then you can notice how that is present and When you're aware of it, it's easier to let go of it because usually it comes in there so fast You're already acting on it before you have any idea of what's going on. So that's why I think Awareness of the body is really good, you know And which you know if you if your practice does in then you're aware of your body and your breath And but then you can get up and you can be aware of walking and aware of standing and aware of your breath and aware

[71:06]

Of you know your posture and so on Because the mind is quick and tricky You know, so it's much easier if you can apply your mind to your body. It seems like what a crazy thing. I'm upset I'm gonna think about my finger, you know, what a nuts thing and but actually it really helps it really changes the situation Because we can't we can't deal with our mind so easily. We trick ourselves. It's too Like quicksilver, you know, and once we establish mindfulness of the body We have more stability and it's easier to distinguish Between the different things that arise in our body and mind So I always recommend, you know, like mindfulness of the body practice is really really good, especially in those times At first you won't want to do it So you ever get enraged and you I'm gonna kill that guy and then you said mindfulness of the body You see the hell with mindfulness of the body. I'm really gonna kill him But then you have to get okay now wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute mindfulness of the body Let me just get back to that. I know I don't want to do it I have they thought of not wanting to do it arises the thought of resisting that arises the thought of you know

[72:11]

The power of my judgment and judgments and my desires to hurt harm somebody I noticed that but this time I got just managed to get in there with enough purchase on that thought To be aware that I will do it and you do one moment then it goes away and then next time it happens You know, then you are enraged and you go off the next time Maybe you have two minutes and then three minutes, you know, then you can extend that so mindfulness of body is very helpful and I really recommend please, you know practice that and You'll be I think you'll be better off really and you'll be able to see the pattern as you described seeing the pattern Really understanding it over many many times of practicing with it Once you really understand it viscerally, it's harder to make stupid mistakes, you know once you really see it. Yeah Let's see. Yes. No, I'll come back to you because you're really funny and you can taste some good Places and increasingly in recent years when I come back to the states I feel

[73:13]

Sadness and people here Alienation and stress and all that stuff And which we talk about but it's really true Even when I've been in a poor area in a poor country People have other problems But they have more of a camaraderie And maybe it's other parts of the states I was in Iowa The folks in the countryside seem to have it more there So they have more community In the area So I guess we'll leave it at that My problem at this point in my life Is that everything is so nice here And nice jobs But Is this my only lifetime? Or maybe some of the largest Is this, if we can't change this What should we do? Should we go move somewhere else? I mean communities like this I guess it's time to answer that But it's a real tough thing To just say oh, you know Dash America And I take my share of it But If you are American

[74:14]

Then I'm on your team Yeah I think I come from Michigan originally And There are people There may be some more of that Because people don't get down America as much There's that piece with it And up here I know I lost my friend It's a cliché It's entirely, I mean Dashing America is intense It's just random You don't hear anything You know, you don't hear anything at all And where I grew up It was the opposite It's a much better country Back there Although It's the same country So I think It's just part of that If you start accepting Like these people in Mexico They don't try to change They don't put down Mexico I think

[75:15]

If we could do the same We would probably feel better Stop putting down our own You know, wall My son that was in Paraguay Said that And I've never been in Paraguay And I don't know anything about it But what he said Living in this little village And I do know that Paraguay Has had forever an outrageous dictatorship This guy Stroessner Was the head of it for 35 years And they got rid of him But now the other guy That they have now Is almost the same Same party and everything He said that all the people In his village Were really proud to be Paraguayan They love their country They love their government It's unbelievable But they love the government And they thought that Paraguay Was the greatest country in the world And they were happy He said No, I don't know Maybe he's not right Just tell me what he said He's 17 So take that into account But still Yes I come from Chile In South America And what I'm hearing here It's a little different

[76:16]

From what I feel When I go to Santiago, Chile I see the same thing People are trapped into the rat race The roadways The freeways, the work They're all stressed out What I'm hearing here Is people that go to Latin America And they go to villages Where the pace of life Is totally different People have different focus And actually my former wife Is living in La Serena In the north of Chile Which is something similar to San Diego A small city And she loves it over there She was tired of living in Santiago With all the traffic and everything So I think that we're romanticizing A little bit Latin America Because what we're seeing Is the villages The beaches, etc. And I think that in the United States We go to the equivalent We'll find people more centered And in a different way So that's my feeling about

[77:17]

This conversation No, I agree, and I found that in the cities too Big difference The cultures, there's an international World culture That's in all the cities, wherever you go Mexico City is not the same thing as Chacala You know, this village Where I was, that's true That's a good point, Latin America is not one thing Obviously Let's see, you sir Yeah, I guess I've always seen that as Kind of a paradox In that the less you have Or the places that I've been in my life The people have less, the happier they are And the more You have, the unhappier you are And I've experienced that in my own life When I've had more things I seem to have more things To worry about, or less So I don't know what that means It might be Kind of a strange paradox Yeah, it's odd, so we're striving to get more It's odd, yeah Let's see, who wants to talk

[78:19]

Yes I was really struck by what you said Because it made me remember About being proud to be American Because I mostly fall on the other side And I don't want to be proud to be American either I think that that, back in Michigan And I've also heard a lot from the Midwest That that can have a lot of unawareness Of the cost of their lives And that's what I was struck by That's the local fire alarm That's our fire alarm What? Yeah, I don't think That there's a fire Okay Let us know if the building's on fire Come back fast Yes, continue I hear what your son's saying That they love their country Are they aware? That's the thing, to be aware Of the cost Growing up, I was like 10, 11, just in love with Greece And mythology, and the golden age of Greece

[79:22]

But what was it to be a woman At that time, or to be a helot So we admire that society But really, what was What darkness was it built on And that's what I wish to wake up to Thank you, yeah You know, I'm just adding a little bit Of like a match To the fire And really, I don't know quite how it fits in Or anything It just came to my mind I was speaking with a friend of mine Who's from Cuba And she's been living in Spain on and off And she has a terrible Fatal problem And she calls me quite often And she expects me To speak with her about it And she really does And she says, you know, here When you have a problem People say, well, yes, but goodbye And she says, in Spain She says, even the neighbor That doesn't even know you They hear you have a problem They come talking at your door And they say, hey, I heard that you have this problem She says, this is part of the culture

[80:24]

Now, I cannot For the life of me say That she is right But I think there is You know, it may be A grain of truth to it And the second thing is My aunts who were very old Well, about my age When they went to live in Mexico And grew older there They had Many, many friends who were quite young And they worked Long hours Working in offices in Mexico City And I couldn't Understand I really couldn't after having lived here For so many years That my old aunts Would go back home After a day's work And about half an hour later The girls from the office would start calling And saying, oh, could we stop by To have a little coffee I said, my God, what is going on here? What am I missing? These people see each other all day They live in Mexico City

[81:25]

And instead of wanting to rest Or watch television or something They're calling their, you know And this was consistent And I was totally baffled I couldn't And I still can't make anything out of it And all I know is that There didn't seem to be The difference of ages Like society wasn't stratified That way And somehow people found Time to be human In that Abysmal city And I mean The traffic jams and all that And I just Couldn't understand it And these friendships remained true to the end When one of my aunts died I understand That there was Always, always A person in her hospital room For 24 hours of the day She was never alone And these were just friends There was no family there

[82:27]

So, I don't know It's interesting A lot has to do With the culture And that culture where the people are less educated There's more respect for life For children, for elderly And as soon as, I travel a lot In South America And as soon as the people are more educated It's the money and the ambition And all of that starts coloring it It makes huge differences Well, these people were high, you know They were middle class Sort of Sort of educated people The ones, because I was there, I saw They were not uneducated people But that makes a lot of sense One of the things that You're next I just wanted to make a comment One of the things that I think is nice about our community here Is that we do have this Combination of people of various ages So We have people here You know, as young as 13 or 14 years old

[83:27]

Coming to stay Visit guest students 16 years old Up to, you know, 75 years old And everybody is doing the same schedule And doing the same practice And eating together And hanging around together And that's one of the really interesting parts Is how people learn from each other And talk to each other And that's so rare, you know That doesn't happen Usually we are hanging around with people our own age In our own basic age bracket And we may work or encounter Other people of other ages But we don't really have much relationship with them And I think that's very good To have all the different Stages of life Just living together And sharing each other's life It's really fun You've wanted to say something for a long time I actually, when you talked I actually met her But it doesn't matter Well, I wanted to say something a while ago And thanks to the client Listening to everyone talk It sort of, the question communicated And now it's really a muddled idea I'll be able to be very articulate

[84:28]

But it does concern Someone in my life right now I wanted to ask the woman over here Who's done a lot of traveling How she finally reconciled You know, those differences For her What I'm dealing with Is a person who comes from Eastern Europe Who is accustomed To that kind of community And support Which was Which was able to bring him through So much diversity And so much incredible challenges And so much strength Because he felt he was doing it for a community And now finds himself in the middle of upstate New York In a very conservative place Where he can't find a community And where actually The It's the environment Is now Or the oppressiveness that he finds in that environment And also isolation Is manifesting itself In horrible bodily conditions And I get, because being a person

[85:31]

Close to him I get a lot of responsibility Of having to explain You know, North American alienation Absolutely It's a very heavy, heavy weight For me to take And I know, I still feel resentful And that it's wrong for this person to tell me America's evil and bad But on the same token I feel like he's putting out Feelers of really trying to connect With people who are so By this point, I think in your talk You talked about We've inherited a way Of thinking Of taking care of ourselves Before others I mean, I'm trying to take this balance With him Make a balance with him Like we're still Spiritual or caring people Who want to be connected But There is this Economy If you can't take care of yourself

[86:32]

In a certain capacity You can't Actualize yourself in other ways And By now I'm rambling And I feel like I haven't made A coherent message But I haven't found an answer So if anyone has anything To say about that It would be great According to him There's none And the thing is He finds himself caught up Because he has A lot of support In academia So in a way America is supporting him And he has a lot of opportunities here But On the other hand It's like The argument he uses with me is America doesn't want him to think Because he's doing all the things

[87:33]

That is right to succeed And he's working like a dog And he's giving up his friendships And he's really running a rat race And getting somewhere in a certain sphere But Also it seems that Even though he's doing the thinking And he's doing the right things He's falling apart Because people are alienating him Jealousy gets in the way People take their jobs So that gets in the way Of that aspect of our society Which is competitive And which is individualistic Is he in a PhD program? He will be soon If he doesn't have a nervous breakdown So his behavior is probably normal then That's what I thought How do you help somebody through that? Because now according to him

[88:33]

His path is one of self-destruction He believes that there's something cosmic That's flowing through his body That is destroying it Because it has a greater mission And so whatever happens You know What are you going to do about Your own helplessness in this? Because that's what I keep feeling from you Is your own What are you going to do to serve you And respect the boundaries Of where he is And sending him the love and support And it sounds like you're Able to listen to him Which is really a gift But what are you going to do about Your own feeling of helplessness? It's not so nice that you ask I'm not alone in hearing it I'm sure You know That's probably what I've been asking all along It sounded to me like He wanted you to fix it all for him Yeah he does It seems like I'm his only community And I'm on the opposite coast

[89:34]

And I'll give it to him Keep it that way She said keep it that way I said I'm on the opposite coast Somebody said keep it that way I think you have to come to your own Daily Centering process You know something Your own body Just for yourself Because That's what I just keep hearing is How can you serve that helpless feeling In yourself so that you can Carry that Even into serving him Or just your own day And just stay with that Seems really important The issue of boundaries is so interesting Because what I've learned through this interaction Is how you really aren't Found to your body And that there are certain connections That transcend Your physical Feeling

[90:36]

But the flip side of all that beautiful Connection is that You actually start to take on You know The weight and the frustration And the pain So it's such an inflection And I guess that's what I deal with I don't know And you know something I think that America offers both The United States offers both Those things that he's saying You can come here and get very prestigious degrees That you don't want to do in your own country And with it you get all the stuff That he wants you to fix And so it's a conflict That's what you get here You know Part of me just really defends what I'm for Because I did grow out of North American soil You know as he put it So I'm part of it But I don't feel I'm part of that evil force You know And I don't know How to deal with that Because I feel for him But on the other hand I have a suggestion

[91:37]

I have a lot of experience Because my husband is from India And his parents have lived with us here With trying to fix America For people And any Indian can plainly see That America is just totally impossible To live in It's almost impossible to believe That people can stand being here It's so intensely lonely So intensely lonely Because In Calcutta where we're from There's a thousand of our closest relatives Nearby And For years For a long time I tried to make America work for them And I was As least as intensely involved As I think you are In the pain and the sorrow of it And Anger [...]

[92:27]

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