Thank you very much. And then following that, he took over from Tokumura Roshi.

[01:19]

And so for example, this is international. So it's wonderful to have him as a guest. I know this will be great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your introduction. Hello, everyone. My name is Isshō Fujita. Actually, I'm not a direct disciple of Uchiyama Roshi. Uchiyama Roshi is my grandfather in the Dharma. My teacher is Uchiyama Roshi's Dharma heir. I'm very happy to be here and I have known Sojun-san and then Kushiki-san for a long time but I've never been here so I'm very very happy to see their sangha here. and also feel very honored to be able to speak here today. So time is limited, so I just jump into the topic I'd like to share with you.

[02:23]

The theme of my talk would be described as the two approaches to the regulation of posture, breath, and mind. And I asked Sojun-san, what kind of English words does he use for this regulation? Usually, when you receive the instruction how to sit zazen, you have an instruction about posture, how to make a posture, how to do with breath, and how to do with your mind. In Japanese, we use, we call them, those three things, CHO SHIN, CHO SOKU, and CHO SHIN. First one is about the posture. CHO SHIN is a posture. Usually, we interpret this Chinese word for CHO. Can I use this?

[03:28]

So the key words for today's my talk is chou, Chinese character. We use this Chinese character to, for example, regulate, to mean regulate or tuning. When you play the guitar or violin, you do some tuning, right? So we use this tuning the string. For example, we use this Chinese character, and then after that, we use the Chinese character for string, so tuning the string, right? And also, we regulate the room temperature, so we use this word as a verb. And also, So this is very important term or concept in Buddhism because I heard you study about Dharmapada recently and one of the sentences I was very impressed when I first time opened a book of Dharmapada, he said,

[04:50]

Many different translations of this word. Someone used the word controlled. Well-controlled self is our authentic refuge. Well-regulated self is our authentic true shelter. I don't know which translation you prefer, but anyway, we can find that kind of sentence. Regulated, well-controlled self is our true shelter, our refuge. It's quite unusual to the people who follow the monotheistic religions. Buddhism starts from the self, but it's well-regulated, well-controlled. In Japanese translation of that sentence, we use this Chinese character. And also the founder of our school, Soto Zen School, Dogen Zenji, also followed this idea.

[06:02]

And in his writings, he said, through regulating our body-mind, we enter into the Buddha way. through regulating body-mind together, not body and mind, body-mind all together, regulating body-mind, we enter into the Buddha way. So this was, is very, very, this concept or idea is very, very essential to Buddhism. But as I said, there's two approaches. One is, One approach you are very familiar with. We are very, since our childhood, we are very strongly conditioned to master, encouraged, and also taught in this mode of regulation.

[07:04]

I call it order and control. order and control. It's a top-down way of regulations. For example, when you come to the Zen Center to receive the Zazen instruction for the first time, you are given very detailed, if the Zen Center is a very kind place, very detailed instruction, what to do with your leg, what to do with your hands, what to do with your back, you know, close your leg this way, that way, keep your back straight, how to make a hand posture, you know, eye, how to deal with your eyesight and so on, right? Then, so there's a bunch of, a bundle of instructions, what to do with body,

[08:07]

breath, and mind. And these instructions have authorities. When I came to America as a resident teacher at Pioneer Ballet Center in Massachusetts, Quite soon, I was impressed with one American expression. I witnessed kids asking, a mother is telling her kids, do this, do that, and then kids keep asking, why, why, why, why? The mother, at the beginning, she kind of answering, because, because, because, and then keep being asked. She got irritated, and then finally she said, because I said so. Oh, that's a good expression, because I said so. Because I said so, right? This is the because I said so approach.

[09:12]

I could be a teacher, I could be a tradition, I could be a Buddha because Buddha said so. Because Buddha did this way, we should do this, right? It's authority. And then we buy those instructions. We internalize those because I said so type instruction without asking permission from the body, breath, and mind. This is the important point. We never ask or negotiate with the body, breath and mind. May I try this instruction to you? May I apply this instruction to you? You means body, breath or mind. We never ask those permissions or collaborations, right? One-sidedly, because Buddha said so, because my teacher said, because book on Zazen said so, do this, because that's Zazen.

[10:18]

I've been practicing Zazen that way for a long time. Actually, I'm very good at doing that type of approach to my life, right? So, and then very typical understanding of this instruction is the, cast down your eyesight 45 degree angle. Recently, every month, I'm contributing my article on Zazen to the AHA's headquarter, Soto Shu's two headquarters, a monastery. They have monthly journals, monthly magazines. So I'm making contribution, sending my article on Zazen. And just recently, I talk about my thoughts on how to deal with eyes during Zazen.

[11:24]

And somehow I criticized the booklet the Soto Shu made for the lay practitioners. They still use the illustration sitting this way and then 45 degrees. Why? I propose a question. Who started this? Why? Maybe out of goodwill. Maybe someone asked, you know, how much should I cash down? 45 degrees? But once someone says so, that's become the authoritative instructions, right? But this is typical, you know, setting up those numbers, 45 meters or 1.5 meters ahead. Dogen never said this number, but now it has authoritative power, right?

[12:31]

So in Massachusetts, I was asked one very serious student, you know, he brought this kind of instrument to measure the angles. Isho, please check my eyesight, you know, exactly 45 degree angle. I cannot see it, so please check this out from the side, you know. He's very serious. I was very embarrassed. I never thought that way. But I could understand why he asked this request, right? He wants to be exactly correct on everything, right? On those instructions. So those incident push me to ponder, you know, our approach to Zazen should be this way? Well, something wrong with this, right?

[13:34]

That's a kind of beginning of my re-examination of how to receive the instructions. So I call it many different ways, top-down approach to regulate. So with this type of regulations, there's a fundamental structures. I is always there as a subject of Who regulates? It's me, right? Who regulates the body, breath, and mind? Me. That's the only answer. Who does it? Me. I, subject. And there's an object. What is those objects? Body, breath, mind. Object. Body, breath, mind. This object. And then here, when I studied English grammar, SVO, subject, verb, and object.

[14:42]

So always, we confirm these structures. I do something with both body, breath, and the mind. without permission from the body, breath, and mind. So this is our attitude, basic fundamental attitude for us to deal with things, not the living things, the dead things. Dead thing, the characteristic of the dead things is it doesn't move by itself. I have to do something with it. So in order to move this one from here to there, to bring about some change to this sign pen, I have to do something, right? So S, S, MU, V, O. We are very much familiar with this approach to the world, things, people, and myself.

[15:54]

So that's the main dominant mode for us to live out this life. Do you agree with this? And we are taught to refine and polish our power, ability to do this kind of things. So if simply receive the instruction, we just simply extend or apply this mode of doing to the instructions. So that's result in the man I mentioned, who asked, check out my eyesight 45, if he's correctly cast down the eyesight 45 degree angle or not. So in this mode, we often hear the word from the teacher or from my conscious mind.

[17:08]

That's not enough. That's wrong. We can say that's wrong because we have already ready-made established goals or ideas for posture or way of breathing and the state of the mind. As a goal, we have to achieve through the effort of this type of regulations. Some people are very good at doing it, some people are not. So here we can find the differences in the progress of this kind of effort. A person who is very quick to catch, quickly master this kind of regulation, someone is not very good at. That's one result. Another one is, we tend to bring about the battles between the reality and the ideals.

[18:21]

There's always gap between the reality and the ideals. I'm supposed to sit this way. But actually, I cannot sit that way for now. So what I should do, I have to beat up myself. Kind of forcefully. So here, many occasions, we become very, very forceful. Forceful? Push ourselves. Kind of beating ourselves with whip. You know very well, right? I have been doing Zazen that way for a long time. Believing that's a practice. Practices are going against the resistance or going beyond, overcome the resistance from the body, breath and mind. Because it's a one-sided forceful

[19:26]

order and control to the body breath and the mind it's naturally it's natural that they rebel against those forceful control because they have their own will and intelligence they are not a dead thing they're alive they have their own logic hope preference and intelligence So we have to have another alternative to this effort of regulations, which we are not so familiar with, or we are not so encouraged to polish or develop in our education or society. But when we carefully read Dogen's writing or Buddhist scriptures, they are offering another possibility of dealing with posture, breath, and mind during meditation or zazen.

[20:40]

So this is a quotation from Dogen's Shobogenzo, Birth and Death. Birth, death, not and, birth, death. Many different translations, but I just found out in a website. I think many of you are familiar with this. So just make a reference to your own translations. Just set aside your body and mind. Forget about them and throw them into the house of Buddha. Then all is done by Buddha. When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a Buddha. Next phrase is very important. Without effort or calculation, This part, if I translate this part more literally, without using the strings or fussing around the mind. When I read this sentence, this part of the Dogen's writing, I was shocked because my zazen was totally opposite.

[21:51]

I'm using a full amount of strength to control my body and control my mind. And also I use lots of mind, you know, am I doing right? Like a man who was worrying about 45 degree, I'm just following exactly the, you know, the instruction about the eyesight, you know, using lots of mind. Am I right or wrong? Am I doing well? How is my progress? And so on. So if we use what is written in this part of Dogen's writing as a standard or criteria for correct attitude towards Azen, we should rethink about what I'm doing in the name of Azen. Do you know the Japanese word, shuzen?

[22:55]

Shuzen. This is a, maybe we can translate this as a mastering, a technique of inducing the jhāna. Jhāna is a special state of mind, you know, one-pointness or some special state of meditative, some special state of meditative mind. So shūzen, shū is mastering. Mastering how to get to the special state of the mind. That's the attitude when we imagine what is meditation. When we hear the word of meditation, we think about we are doing something to achieve or master

[23:55]

skills or technique to attain some state of the mind. But according to Dogen, Zazen is not Shuzen. We have to be serious about this. Zazen is something else than mastering the meditation technique. Then what? Then what is Zazen? I associate Shuzen As the old effort we make with this quality, this is a human-centered. Human-centered because I am the subject of this effort. Who is doing Zazen? I am doing Zazen, right? Everybody answers that way. But this sentence I just quoted from Dogen's writing is, everything, all is done by Buddha.

[24:57]

So the second approach, the main character of this practice is not me, it's a Buddha. And Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Zen master, says something very similar. If I translate my own translation, Buddha knows how to breathe. Buddha knows how to walk already. So what we should do is ask Buddha to come and help. Then Buddha will take care of everything. And then after this comment, he proposed, he composed the Gatha poem, verse about meditation. So for example, five gardens, I think you can find it. It starts from like, I'm not sure, this is not exact.

[26:03]

Buddha is breathing, Buddha is walking. I just enjoy breathing, I just enjoy walking. Something like that. And then, that's maybe first verse, and the second, third, get deeper. And eventually, there's no me, Buddha. Only one thing. Only breathing is happening. Only walking is happening. Something like that. Can we taste this kind of... How do you say? There's no room here for me doing that. This is not a mystical experience for limited, only gifted people. This should be a standard criteria for us to practice Zazen, I think, I believe.

[27:05]

So my question is, are we doing Zazen toward that direction with this understanding? So the simple effort, I'm doing lots of effort, you know, we want to say, because ego likes to feel that doing lots of effort. Our ego consciousness like, I am doing very, very, ego consciousness likes to say, I'm making lots of effort to be proud of it, to show off. how much I am making effort, right? But that's why we love resistance. Resistance from the body, breath and mind. And then we love effort to go beyond or to win this battle against the resistance from body, breath and mind.

[28:11]

And I, for a long time, I misunderstood the value of practice in that way. The more resistance I have, I dial up my power of forcefulness. And I feel proud of it. I can win this battle. But according to Dogen, in the middle of my 30s, I realized my effort, direction, orientation of my effort was totally missed a point, according to Dogen. I was kind of, what have I been doing? But since that realization, I started re-reading Buddhist scriptures, Dogen's writings, and also reframe the practice.

[29:14]

So I can call it the fundamental paradigm shift from the paradigm A1 to paradigm 2. I'm still rehabilitating. No, I am still on the process, in the process. Shifting from 1A to B. So what does it mean by Thich Nhat Hanh saying that Buddha knows how to breathe? Buddha knows how to walk? As soon as we ask him to come and help, he immediately comes. Can we have the trust? So what does, in this context, what does the Buddha mean? Is it something transcendent? Watching down us from somewhere over there?

[30:21]

How do you understand in this context? Where is this Buddha? What does it mean asking Buddha to come and help? And he immediately comes. Who is Buddha? What is Buddha? Who knows how to walk, how to breathe? If we take this Thich Nhat Hanh's description as a description of the criteria of the correct effort of the meditation practice, we have to think about it seriously. So for now, the Buddha means our innate innate self-regulatory mechanism to harmonize body, mind, body, breath, and mind.

[31:26]

We already have those prajna. I call it prajna. Prajna Before, I thought Prajna is something to be achieved at the end of the practice. I don't have it for now, and I'm going to have it later. I don't know how soon or how late, but not now. But now I totally changed after this paradigm shift. We can practice based on the Prajna. We're already using it. Prajna is here, already functioning, working fully, completely, perfectly. Most of what we are doing is disturbing, blocking the working of the prajna we already have. So what we should do is not accumulation of doing, rather

[32:32]

not doing but undo [...] non-do undo undo stopping and then in massachusetts i discovered the alexander technique Because I won't talk about the importance of the posture. That's the Antaiji tradition. In Antaiji traditions, the Zazen is nothing but, this is Uchiyama Roshi's expression, aiming at the correct sitting posture with bones and flesh, flesh and bones, and leave everything to it. I share this definition of Zazen with practitioner of vipassana or practitioner of the Tibetan visualization technique, they don't understand. The Western Massachusetts are very, very, Buddhism, people are very much interested in Buddhism and practice.

[33:44]

So lots of vipassana type meditation center, IMS, Goenkaji's meditation center nearby. of my zendo, and also there are lots of Chogyam Churumpa group, and then Dzogchen group, and so on. Very, very hot place, like California, right? So they're kind of, when they got a rumor, that time, there's no internet. So word of mouth, this century, the Japanese monk came from Japan to Varesendo. So they're offering retreat. So those people with experience of Vipassana or Tibetan type of meditation often came to my place. And I explained how to do Zazen. Many of them kind of perplexed. So Isho, you talk about posture a lot. Then what should I do after that, after sitting that way?

[34:48]

What should I do with my mind? I was perplexed. That's it. We sit that way with body and mind all together. Many of them, I don't understand. So that's the uniqueness of Zazen. We sit, according to Dogen, I often show Shobo Genzo to them. Dogen said, We sit kekkafuza, full lotus position, with body. We sit kekkafuza with mind. We sit kekkafuza with body-mind. We do kekkafuza with dropped-off body-mind. Four sentences in succession. So that means we sit kekkafuza, period. Many of them think of meditation, sit this way, plus doing something with mind. They call it meditative practice. So very different framework, very different assumption.

[35:53]

And then, so I emphasize the correct sitting posture. So some of the participants of the retreats talk about Alexander Tchaikovsky. Isho, you better met this person. You better know about Alexander Technique. Do you know the Alexander Technique? Western-born somatic education kind of approach. Emphasize the primary control, which is the quality of the head-neck connections. Lots of theater people or musicians practicing this. I found out, those days there's no internet, so word of mouth, I found out the practitioner and the teacher of Alexander Technique. And then I learned basic level of Alexander Technique from him, and very, very useful for me to think about this approach. So I learned this English words, undo, undoing from him.

[37:00]

So he said, If you stop wrongdoing, the something correct will come out by itself. It's not you do something correct. You cannot do it. Something else will come up. So if you stop doing something wrong, something correct will come up. And also he gave me several phrases, like a mantra. The less we do, the deeper we see. Not the more we do. The less we do, the deeper we see. And I share with you. Be still without holding. Be still without holding. Until that time, I tried to be still through holding.

[38:07]

So it sounds at the beginning, no. How should I do? How can I achieve the stillness without holding? Zen koan. I call it somatic koan. And also he said, do not prepare for anything. Do not prepare for anything, but be ready for everything. very Zen, right? But that's those teachings or those suggestions from Those field of somatic body work, Alexander's technique, Feldenkrais method. And I also experienced the body-mind centering. The founder lived nearby, so I directly learned body-mind centering. I don't know if you are familiar with it. Or, Rolfing, the many interesting western-born somatic work.

[39:11]

is telling something very, very common. And then I felt very useful to capture, describe the uniqueness of this approach, the approach to the regulation of body, breath, and mind. So I learned the exercise to shift our paradigm from this type, this is more like a training of the machine. You know, the one, two, three, four, five type of, we are very familiar with, right? And then I check out those training gym, many of them are walking or running on the treadmill with listening the music or watching the TVs. I think they assume as far as they are sweating, they are doing right.

[40:20]

Mind doesn't have to be there, right? That's my guess. I think I'm right. Otherwise, I cannot understand why, why. So that's a training. They just give what to do. They give instruction to the body what they should do, right? And the mind can do something else. It's the same assumption. I sit meditation, sitting, and mind is doing something else. Counting breath, visualizing the god, goddess, and so on. Right? Same assumption. But this practice, somatic exercise, cannot be done that way. Mind, body, all together engaged in one activity. So yoga too. You can practice ancient practice, like yoga, qigong, zazen too.

[41:26]

This way or that way, it's up to you. Looks same, you know, the pose of triangle, yoga asana pose, but this way or that way. So I characterize this approach in the contrast, order and control. I call it sense and allow. And also, order and control, it's a world of tension, because it's forceful. We cannot be forceful without tension. And also, tension is created by any form of effort to achieve something else, which does not exist for now. If we pursue something, it naturally results in tension. We can rest only when we allow, we totally accept what is happening.

[42:34]

No complaint, no order. So this approach is through the tension. This approach through letting go and relaxation. So same pose, you can create the same pose as accumulation of tension or result of relaxation. looks same from outside but felt totally different from inside. So for now, I think, this is my opinion, you don't have to buy it, you don't have to, it's up to you, take it or not. Doesn't should be done with this B approach. And personally, as a personal experience,

[43:36]

As a result of paradigm shift from A to B, Zazen becomes more interesting and fun and curious. And I can see, as I said, the less we do, the deeper we see. I can see the deeper, subtler landscape of Zazen through shifting my approach from A to B. So I highly recommend you to try, or at least experiment, try to do zazen this way, or make an experiment to shift the approach to Zazen from A to B. If you understand, if you feel curious about it.

[44:41]

And then, as a result of this shift, I discovered the true bodily intelligence. which I did not learn from school. The body already knows. That's why I call it prajna. Innate prajna. We are gifted with this prajna. And you can call it the Buddha nature too. Buddha nature is not a possibility or potential, but actually the functioning which is already happening in your body, breath, and mind. So what we should do for this approach is relax, because in order to level up our sensitivity to know what's happening in body, breath, and mind, we have to relax. And then we sense what is happening Not this should be this way or that way, but what is happening right now?

[45:51]

And then feedback those informations to the, not the neocortex or lower level of the brain, which is a center of regulation, automatic self-regulation mechanism. And then it's, create some subtle change of the posture. Not because you said so, but because they felt so. You shift the center of the gravity or your body naturally find more neutral position and so on. And then breath become deeper, not because you order it, but as a result of the self-regulations. The mind get calmer, not because you force them to be that way. So something, some subtle change starts, we have to allow it, permit, let it happen, without trying to control it.

[46:59]

So this one, resulting in holding. You know, we have to hold because the body rebelled. You know, I don't want to sit this way. No, no, no. Because they said so, you have to sit this way, that way. Look at the picture of the Master. But Master has his own body, breath, and mind. I have my own body, breath, and mind. It cannot be the same, right? But we tend to say, that's the way we should sit, right? impose the idea onto my body, breath, and mind. That's why naturally body says, no, I don't want. No, you should, because I said so, type. But this one is different. So we don't have the answer yet. We are exploring the better way of being in Zazen. Each Zazen is an experiment and exploration, right?

[48:08]

In a fresh approach. Every Zazen is fresh. Not mechanical, cannot be mechanical. That's why I felt Zazen become more fun and interesting. So I can continue, but it's time to stop. According to the Kushiki's instruction, I have to Do you have time for a few questions? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, five minutes. This instruction. He says so, so I have to follow. Even I want to continue, but I have to stop here. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much for your talk. When you had laid out on your chart SVO, subject, verb, object, it seems like it's set up in the English language that Yes. Yes. Hmm. But still, even Japanese people arrange their experiment, you know, I am doing something with things, you know, even we don't, we don't have Japanese, in Japanese, there's no such strict or explicit structure, SVO, but still we, we arrange our experiment, raw experience in that way.

[49:51]

Yeah, the same thing, you know. That's a human condition. Yeah, yeah. So how to go beyond those human conditions? If we apply this human condition onto Zazen, Zazen becomes the human thing, not the Buddha thing. According to Buddha, Zazen is a Buddha's practice, not the human thing. Zazen does not belong to the triple world. It's a Dharma of the Buddha and the ancestors. That means the paradigm is totally different. So that's why we need practice to... So it's not simple extension of what we are doing in a daily thing. It's totally... change the mode. That's why it's called practice. Training is just extending, expanding the same mode we are doing, right? But practice in Japanese is called Gyo. Gyo is translated as... Zazen is Gyo.

[50:52]

Yoga is Gyo. Something different. So it's not the result of a human calculation. It's something descent from the heaven. Something go beyond our human invention. It's a discovery or gift from the nature. Yes. I really am happy with what you were saying about to adopt your method, but what, in my experience with the chanting, I had the experience of, I got the instruction, wholehearted, okay, and so it was as loud as I could possibly be, and nobody could hear anything else but my voice, and I thought that was great, until I kind of got a little weak in directions, and sense, and allowed, and so I'm sitting there trying to think, what is wholehearted, if I'm not blasting it out?

[51:54]

And in the process of slowly listening and so on, I found, and you put words to it for me, that I can find wholehearted in almost silent. I can put wholehearted in a different way. But more than that, from what you said, I can see the heart coming up. I can allow and experience the heart coming up in my chanting, not that I'm doing it. We can feel the taste of doing Zazen very differently. For example, the breathing is a matter of how to contact with, how to dance with the air. And then posture is how to dance with the gravity or how to dance with the floor. So it implies that our Zazen is not our individual inner work. Rather, we open up ourselves and then Discovery, we discover, you know, we already engaged in the mutual communication with many other things outside of my skin.

[53:05]

Air, gravity, floor, and then temperature and light and so on, right? So that's why I understand that we do Zazen together with all things. It's not my personal inner work. It's more like a public, public, it's not a private job, private inner job. It's a more public, public is good words, public, universal, universal, cosmic, cosmic. So whatever happened during Zazen, it's a cosmic event. But most of us think it's my personal thoughts, personal feeling, right? So somehow Zazen practice in B-mode is liberated us from this entrapment with the private individual cage, prisons.

[54:07]

That's why we are doing Zazen, I think. Yes, one, two, hi. Oh, really? Thank you for sharing your time with me. Yes. Yeah, yes. Yeah, yes. Yes. You came to Zen too early, I think. Now come to Japan. The atmosphere is much more fun. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your memories. Yes. Thank you very much. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, OK. Go ahead. Go ahead. It seems like kind of obvious that the first paradigm is quite dualistic.

[55:10]

Yes, yes. Yes, yes. care of ourselves in other ways that we are receptive and open as much as we can to ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many people said that's no self, but I don't think that's wrong understanding. The second version is real no self. No self? You know, there's an anata? Yeah, just following the order, that's not no self, I think. Yeah, but many people in Japan takes that Buddhist concept of no-self that way.

[56:16]

No privacy, no, I say, no spontaneity. Just say yes, yes, yes, you know. But I don't think that's the right understanding of the Buddha's teaching of anatta. So you talk about it's the first approach, even though they feel I'm doing lots of effort, but they are lazy actually. I agree. I agree with you. Yes. Okay. Hi. So you are the last. Oh, okay. So she was earlier. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, prostrations, yes.

[57:33]

Yeah, for a long time, you know, up until now, most of the religions that put down the body, saying the dirty or impure or prison for the soul or something like that. But I didn't like it. I don't like it. I think, as I said, the body knows much more than the mind knows. So I studied psychology, focusing, the psychotherapy technique called focusing. It's based, listen to the felt sense, felt sense. is a special concept of the, it's not simply itchy or painful sensation. It's something like a crossroad of the body and mind. It's psychological, but very physical too, felt sense. So they developed the skills to have a conversation with this felt sense, because felt sense is the implication that this situation,

[58:43]

in which body is part of it, telling what should be done to go farther, right? The mind cannot tell it, but body already know what this situation is, which direction this concrete situation is moving forward, right? So body pick up. Body is a great resources for the mind. But because of our wrong view of the body, we cannot make good use of those great resources for us. So Zazen is, I think, in a sense, listening to this subtle voice from the situation through the body. So I think one of the reasons I dropped out from psychology is they just talk about psyche.

[59:45]

They don't talk about the body. They didn't have transpersonal psychology at that time. But now the dispelled sense, transpersonal psychology. Now I'm a member of the somatic psychology association in Japan. So I'm advocating, you know, look at Zazen. I look at, I'm using Zazen as a great example of the unity of body-mind. I often quote again. Okay, so last one. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I don't know why. But we can. Anyway, as a personal experience, I only knew the AI approach in 2000. Through the encounter, facing the difficulties of my own practice and also people's difficulties, that's kind of somehow pushed me or implied me or pushed me to wonder if there is another approach.

[60:57]

So when we find a different approach, it takes a while before we put them together. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. I appreciate it. I really appreciate it. For example, mindfulness is now getting popular in Japan. Many people try to do mindful practice, A approach. And many of them are asking, I am doing right? I think that's why there's something wrong with that type of approach to mindfulness. So I'm kind of talking about another one, just suggesting, you know, is that the only way to practice mindfulness? Because we are deeply conditioned, there's only one type of effort, doing, mode, tension-driven, goal-oriented, and those qualities.

[61:58]

But those approach is questioned in the Alexander technique. It's called end gaining mind. That's just the extension. Nothing new happened as far as we follow that mode. So if we want to create a new world, we have to have another, at least, idea. At least idea about there is another way of making effort. Not the lazy effort, more serious, committed effort. More spontaneous, emphasize spontaneity. Not the order from outside, but listening to the spontaneous. I call it heart voice, not the mental order, but heart voice. What really I want to do from body, breath, and mind. But anyway, I hope it's time to stop. Thank you for your attention.

[63:00]

I very much appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[63:03]

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