This morning I want to present case number 51 from the Blue Cliff record Usually this case is Called What is it? If we want a title suppose, what is it? And I want to present the case, or read the case as it's translated by Suzuki Roshi. It's rather an old translation, but he talks about seppo. Seppo is the main, seppo and ganto,

[01:02]

are the two main characters of this case. And Seppo and Ganto were very famous teachers. And they were both successors to Tokusan, or Doshan, who I've been talking about. Doshan was famous for his big stick, using his big stick and giving everybody 30 blows, whether they said yes or no. So, Seppo Gison was a good example. He lived in, let's see, 822 to 908, was a good example of a well-trained Zen master. Three times a visitor to Tosu and nine times an attendant to Tozan became one of the catchwords of Zen practice, signifying Seppo's hard practice A severe persecution occurred when Sepo was 20 years old.

[02:08]

Metalware throughout the land was turned into coins, including temple bells and images of Buddha. 4,000 temples were destroyed and 26,500 priests and nuns were cast out of the order along with 2,000 priests of other religions except Taoism. Some people might feel that was maybe pretty good. The other principal character of this model subject, Ganto Senkatsu, 828-887, was killed by a mob. He was a good friend of Seppo, and they had both been born in the province of Fukien. Both went on long, hard pilgrimages from northeast to southeast China, visiting many famous masters. As stated, they are said to have visited Tosu Daido three times and Tozan Ryokai nine times. You may imagine how hard they practiced. Ganto was said to have been attacked by bandits in his temple.

[03:14]

And when they were about to kill him, he gave a great shout, which was heard for miles around. And Hakuin, who was the reformer of the Rinzai Zen in Japan in the 17th century, couldn't understand Ganto's shout. And that was his koan for a long, long time. Why did he give that shout? Later, they were handed down tokusan, senkans, That's Dasan, Tokusan's transmission. And when Seppo was 44 and Ganto was 38, they left Tokusan and started pilgrimage again. At Gosanchin, they were caught in a heavy snowstorm. Seppo was sitting all night long while Ganto was sleeping.

[04:17]

And Ganto said to him, This village is like a fortified town. There's nothing to worry about. Why don't you sleep? Go to sleep. What are you sitting up all night for? Why are you so worried?" Seppo, rubbing his breast, said, I don't feel so easy in my heart. And Ganto answered, Well, please tell me. one by one, all the things that you learned from all your teachers. Tell me all the things that you've learned from all your teachers." And Seppo told Ganto what he had experienced under Tozon and Tokuzan. But Ganto didn't agree and said, the treasures that come from outside are not your family treasures. Seppo was enlightened by this statement.

[05:22]

And it was after attaining his great enlightenment that he secluded himself in the mountains at Rheinan and continued his hard practice. After he was enlightened, he really started practicing. Sometimes we feel that people think, well, after I'm enlightened, that I can stop practicing. But actually, enlightenment is the beginning of our hard practice. So this is kind of a story that precedes this koan. And it's a little biographical sketch of Seppo and Ganto. There are many stories about Seppo and Ganto and how they interacted with a teacher, Tokusan. But they were very good companions.

[06:24]

and they were like dharma companions. They always traveled together and studied together and supported each other in their practice. It's very good to have one person who you feel is a dharma companion. Someone who goes, it's on the path with you and you feel that will always be with you. and that you can always come back to or count on. And your practice is reflected in there. You can see your practice reflected through that person, and that person can see their practice reflected through you. So Seppo and Ganto were like this. Seppo was a little bit older than Ganto,

[07:26]

but was actually enlightened by Ganto. But Seppo actually became a more famous Zen master. Ganto didn't have very many students, but Ganto had thousands of students. Seppo had thousands of students and was a very fine teacher. It's interesting. Ganto was very brilliant. Even his teacher, Tokusan, was not as brilliant as Ganto. And Seppo was not quite so intelligent, not so smart, not so sharp. And often, other people had the last word on him. But he was always willing to concede that others were more intelligent or more brilliant or more enlightened than he was.

[08:39]

But he's a very good example of someone who worked very hard. His whole life was dharma. And Dharma was, Enlightenment was, his Enlightenment was very brilliant and cut through any difficulties or impediments or slow-wittedness that he had. Whereas Ganto, who was very brilliant and was not so well sought, not so much sought after, not such a good teacher for everybody. So the main case, Engo, who introduces the subjects for this case, said, this is his introduction,

[09:52]

as interpreted by Suzuki Roshi, if you are caught by the slightest idea of good and bad, your mind, that is, true mind or essence of mind, will be lost in the realm of disorder. If you are caught by the slightest idea of good and bad, your mind will be caught, lost in the realm of disorder. You won't be able to find your true mind. If you do not have an idea, any idea of the order of stages, there will be no purpose in your practice. Now, which do you think is better, to pursue the relative way or to resume to the absolute? That's sometimes stated as, which is better, to take hold or to let loose? to hold tight or to let loose. Holding tight means taking the absolute way and letting loose means taking the relative way.

[11:04]

The relative form and color that you see now, whatever you see now as form and color, are the conditioned attributes of the unconditioned. of the unconditioned constant absolute. So the conditioned attributes that you see, forms and colors, are the conditioned attributes of the constant unconditioned absolute. The absolute is the eternal unconditionality that gives rise to the conditioned relative way of practice. What you see now is the eternal unconditionality of the absolute and the momentous conditioned relative. Actually, the positive or relative way is not different from the negative or absolute way.

[12:08]

Even though you follow the order of the stages in your actual practice, if each relative stage, even the first stage, is brought out in full relief against the darkness of the Absolute, and if there is no fumbling and groping in your practice under the right teacher, then your practice is already in the realm of reality. Each relative stage bears the full meaning of the Absolute, and the Absolute reveals its actual meaning in the relative practice. If you wish to understand this secret, you must study under the right teacher, not only by words, but also by actual conduct on each moment under particular circumstances. To continue with Engo's introduction, he said, if you become attached to some particular way of expressing Zen, captivated by something told in words or verse, attached to some method of instruction,

[13:11]

scolding, scolding voice, slapping face, seizing by the collar and casting off, drawing a circle, lifting up one finger, etc. These are all old modes of teaching. You are nothing better than the parasitic weeds wrapped around dead trees. Even if a man thinks that he is living in the land of the Tathagata itself, When he is possessed by the idea of this land or that land, he is said to be watching the moon of his old home, which is now 10,000 miles away. Well, have you understood what I'm saying? If not, here is an actual koan for you to ponder. So here's the main case, which is interpreted by Suzuki Roshi. When Tsepo was in his hermitage on Mount Tsepo, Mount Tsepo was actually a mountain.

[14:15]

His name was Shui Feng. But Tsepo was the place where he practiced. Two unnamed monks visited him and bowed to him. Well, actually, that's putting the cart before the horse. They bowed to him afterward. Two unnamed monks visited Tsepo. When Tsepo saw them coming, He pushed open the gate, jumped out, and said, what is it? Suzuki Roshi says, an indicative question. A question and yet an answer. Do you understand the ryo seppo? Tell me what it is. He is an iron flute with no holes, Engo said. The two monks said in reply, what is it? The two monks did not fail to respond, but Engo says, they are old sounding boards covered by velvet.

[15:22]

In other words, they don't resound. They were chalk and not cheese. They looked like cheese, but they were really chalk. Sampo made a bow to them and went back to his room. And Suzuki Roshi says, what is the bow? Engo said, this is not a dragon because it has no legs. But it is certainly not a snake because it has no horns. I say, what is it? Dragons and snakes in Zen. terminology, dragons are enlightened beings and snakes are deluded beings. So, he's saying it's not a dragon, yet it's not a snake. What is it? The two monks later extended their travels to visit Ganto.

[16:29]

Ganto was living in a different place because of the persecutions at the time The Zen monks, all Buddhists, scattered and lost a lot of temples, as he said before. And the Zen monks went to the mountains and established themselves in the mountains. And they didn't need anything special to practice with. They didn't need any wonderful temples, so forth. They could practice wherever they were. So the Zen monks really survived very well, the persecutions, whereas a lot of the other Buddhists didn't. So Seppo established himself at that time on Mount Seppo, and Ganto found his own place, but they were very distant from each other. So the two monks later extended their travels to visit Ganto on Ganto Mountain. Ganto said, where did you come from?

[17:32]

This is a good question. Ganto has already caught them with this question, but they don't understand. The monk said, we're from Rainan, Ganto. And Suzuki says, be quick and give them a right answer. Ganto said, then you must have met Seppo, didn't you? It is very kind of him to wait for their right answer. The monk said, yes, we have. He was not asking them yes or no, but whether they had understood the actual Seppo. The question is not, did you meet Seppo, but did you meet the actual Seppo? Sometimes when we meet somebody, we say, oh, hello. How are you? What does it mean? Who met who? What happened? Canto said, well, what did Seppo say when you met him?

[18:39]

And they told him all about what had happened when they visited Seppo. Canto said, Well, what did he say after all? Thus requesting their final answer, what did he really say? But they said, he didn't say anything. He bowed and went back to his room. Thereupon, Ganto said, Oh, what have I done? When I was at Tokusan with him, I should have let him know the verse on my deathbed. If only I had told him that, If only I had told him the last word, he would not have been thrown into such confusion. Although Gonto mentioned Seppo's name, he actually meant to give the monks his own last word. Then, what is his last word? The two monks were allowed to spend the summer at Gonto's monastery.

[19:41]

At the end of the session, the two monks asked Gonto's instruction about the meaning of Seppo's unusual behavior and what Ganto had meant by, how I wish I had told him my last word. Ganto said, well, why didn't you ask me that before? And the monk said, well, because we thought your last word was too valuable to ask about. They were intimidated. Thereupon Ganto said, Seppo is a fellow countryman of mine. He and I always went on pilgrimages together, yet we will not die together. If you want to know my last word for seppo and you, I will tell you what it was. It's nothing but, this is it. This is the koan. Two monks went to visit seppo.

[20:45]

Seppo came out of his little hut, when he saw the monks coming, maybe he was happy to see them coming up the path. And when they came in the gate, he said, what is it? And they said, what is it? And Seppo bowed and went back into his hut. This was the meeting. But the monks didn't understand what happened. Something happened. But the monks didn't understand what happened. They thought, after Seppo asked, what is it? That there was something else. Their response was pretty good, but it didn't meet Seppala's question.

[22:03]

They were still in the realm of thinking. So the monks left, and later on they were visiting Ganto on his mountain. And they told Ganto the story. And after talking with Ganto, Ganto said, if I had been with... If I had only told Senpou the last word when I was with him at Tokusan's place, he would understand. He's not talking about seppu, he's talking about the monks. He's really not saying that he needed to educate seppu. Sounds like it. And then he says, when they came to ask him about it later, he said,

[23:20]

Well, I'll tell you what it's about. It's about this is it. The answer to what is it is this is it. This is it is always the answer to what is it. If... From Seppo's point of view, Seppo is living right now. Seppo's life is, this is it. This is what Seppo's life is about. Not about yesterday or tomorrow, but it's about, this is it. If you ask him about the absolute, if you ask him about Buddha, or the Dharmadhatu, or the Dharmakaya, or the great interconnected being, his answer is, this is it.

[24:32]

If you ask him about what are you doing right now, his answer is, this is it. Then Suzuki Roshi says, wherever seppo and ganto might be, however long they might live as the best friend of each other, what seppo did is actual seppo, and what ganto did is actual ganto. This is it, should always be the last word for oneself and for others. Dogen Zenji said, Breathing in or breathing out, after all, what is it? No one can tell what it is. Now, you may not be calm or patient enough to wait for the right answer, but let us ask ourselves if our activity is either subjective or objective.

[25:45]

Let me point to this. What do we mean by it? Do you mean breathing itself or the idea of breathing. If you mean the idea of breathing, it will be another matter. If you mean breathing itself on each moment, you have solved the problem already when you breathe in and out. On each moment in calmness with big mind, now you will understand that the right answer to what is it should always be, this is it. Kanto was killed soon after leaving his last word to his friend Seppo. And then he says, this translation and commentary are my poor offering to these two great masters. Our Zen practice is very simple and yet so easy to miss.

[27:05]

As a matter of fact, it's so simple that we miss it a lot. To be able to take hold of and seize this moment and to not get lost in the world, to not run into confusion and doubt. Pretty difficult, yet pretty simple. If we always know, what are we doing? This kind of question, what is it, what am I doing, is our koan for each one of us.

[28:15]

This What Is It? was, I always felt, was Suzuki Roshi's unstated koan for us. I can always hear him saying, what is it? Or if somebody asks him a question, so often saying, what is it? In such a way as to give the person back in a very similar way that Seppo is talking to these monks. What is it? And bowing. He says, after all, what is this bow? How do we become aware of the absolute quality of our life on each moment's activity? It's easy, maybe not so difficult to be aware of what we're doing, but to be aware of the absolute quality

[29:36]

of our life in each activity is easy to miss. How to express Buddha nature in the simplest acts of our life, how to express the whole whole being, which is not just our personality. Whenever someone asked Master Gutei a question, he always raised one finger. When he raised one finger, he said, this is it. When someone asked him a question, he'd raise one finger, and one finger is, this is it.

[30:43]

Everything in the whole universe belongs to this finger. Everything in the whole universe is behind this finger, supporting this finger. This finger does not exist without the rest of the whole universe. so-called universe, Dharmadhatu. When we say, I do something, I am walking, I am eating, what does that mean? What's really happening? What is that? What is this? In one sense, there's just eating. But in another sense, the whole universe is eating potatoes with a knife and fork.

[31:56]

So, what is it? It is a big word, little word, but has great meaning. It has no special name, but we can point to everything and say, this is it. If I point to you, I can say, You're it. But yet each it we give a name to. John and Mary and the table and the chair are called John, Mary, table, chair. Yet each one of them is it. So if we say, what is it? It has no special name. no special form, no special characteristic, but every name and every form and every color and shape is an expression of It.

[33:19]

So, what is It? What is It? Or, what is It? You can say it any way you like. What is it? What is it? What is it? So the answer is always, this is it. If we can keep our attention on always on this is it, then we have our practice. It's not that we know something, but we express right understanding. I may not know what everything is, but I know that this is it.

[34:28]

This is how we express our true being. Even though I know something, I don't understand it. Even though I don't understand it, I know it. Even though the barbarian knows it, he doesn't understand it. Would you like to discuss something?

[35:55]

Do you have a question? What is going on? It's enlightenment. We think that delusion precedes enlightenment. We like to think in terms of hierarchy, that delusion precedes enlightenment. We work real hard, then we get enlightened, and it looks like that, you know.

[36:58]

But enlightenment is our nature, true nature, which we always have. And when we say, get enlightened, we don't get something. Getting enlightened doesn't mean to get something. It means to bring out, bring forth light. So before enlightenment, what is there? Enlightenment. Before and after. Enlightenment is before, now, and after. But just because we have an enlightenment doesn't mean that we realize it. So what's before realization? Obscurity. confusion, dualistic thinking, yours and mine, right and wrong, good and bad.

[38:07]

And after enlightenment, there's confusion, right and wrong, good and bad, but it's not the same. This is very important, actually. We think, you know, enlightenment means the reconciliation of all dualities. And you and I may be angry at each other before enlightenment, and when we become enlightened, we reconcile anger and happiness. That's the one thing. And then after enlightenment, we may still be angry, but it's not the same.

[39:17]

I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about if you love ice cream cones, every time you pass an ice cream store, you get this feeling that you want an ice cream cone. And after you're enlightened, when you pass the ice cream store, you still get the feeling that you want the ice cream cone. But it's different. But enlightenment is the beginning of our practice. The fact that you want to practice means that you want to express the enlightenment that you already have.

[40:50]

But we think that we enter practice in order to get enlightenment, but actually it's our enlightenment that's creating our practice. But we see it the other way around. After, you know, if I work real hard I'll get enlightened. But that's good. But it's the enlightenment that's making you work real hard. And what you're looking for is what you've already got. But you don't know that until you wake up to it. And then you don't say, well now that I've woken up to it I can let go, I can stop. But actually you don't want to stop because The enlightenment is within your effort and within your practice.

[41:59]

Practice brings forth enlightenment, but enlightenment is what creates practice. And practice extends everywhere. It's not confined to some place or certain activity, but extends everywhere. This is it. Please pass the salt. Yes, practice and enlightenment. Thank you.

[43:26]

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