Well, I guess I could say it's really good to see everybody. And let's see what we can do. And I'm happy to engage. See what you might have questions about. So I'm still around and I'm working well. We're working on these books, my book and my book. I don't know what to call it, my book or my books because it's a couple of books all folded into one or two.

[01:01]

So I'm having a very interesting time delving into my past and then into the history of Nitsendo. And Ron and Tika are really great in helping them to do that. They're both good editors. And... I hope that something will happen by the end of the year. Something will happen, but I don't know if everything will be completed. You know, the longer you live, the more stuff you accumulate, whether it's furniture or karma,

[02:06]

And so I'm not pushing myself, but I am making good effort. So I want to know how all of you are doing. So Mike, do you want to go first? Do you want to go first? Oh, who? Hello? Can you hear me? We can hear you. You can hear me? Yes.

[03:08]

Okay. It's good to see you, Sergeant. Thank you. You too. And it's good to hold my hands correctly. You taught me how to gas show 10 years ago. Not like this. No. No. No. Like this. Yes. The delusion. And the enlightenment together. Yes. I still think one hand is diluted and the other is enlightened. Well, they're both diluted and they're both enlightened. They're both diluted. Okay. So if I lose a hand, I can still be complete. Well, that's an interesting question. Yes. depending on what you mean by complete. I worry sometimes because my arms are not the same.

[04:15]

I have a large arm and a small arm. Yes. A strong arm and a weak arm. Yes. And my vulnerability comes with that sometimes. But that's normal. Mm-hmm. Yes. Quite normal. I guess... The question, yes, it's just so good to see you. I know that I missed seeing you last time, but I appreciated speaking to Hozon, and I'm happy to see you tonight. I guess the question, and when I wrote a poem about this, I thought about what we learned from spiders about catching mistakes. Spiders catch the bugs. Yes. You caught my mistake at the right time, my continuous mistake at the right time. I'm still dealing with a continuous mistake.

[05:20]

I wonder sometimes as the world changes and the future of BGC develops and the community of Sangha develops, how can we ensure that we welcome each other's continuous mistake? You know, mistake doesn't mean mistake. It doesn't mean mistake? No. What does it mean? It can mean success. Success. Mistake implies that there's something called success. Yeah, so we choose success over mistake.

[06:28]

A mistake. A false false evaluation. Literally. So when Dogen says, my life is one continuous mistake, he means it's, he doesn't mean it's one continuous success, but one continuous mistake it's not a complaint it means life is like this life itself is like this not like I made a mistake because I was born into this world my life is one continuous mistake because I won't say because

[07:34]

It's like using language to say one thing and meaning its opposite. We have to do that sometimes. And he says, well, we do it all the time without thinking. When he says one continuous mistake, it's like you're walking your baby down the street And someone says, oh, what a cute little kid. And you say, oh, no, he's not so cute. You hide the truth inside what you're saying. Yes. The nuances of language. Yes. Dogan's language. It's all poetic.

[08:40]

When you compliment somebody and you say, oh, you're doing that really well. Oh, I'm not really good at that. One continuous mistake. You know, we recently read Charlotte's Web, the book. And Charlotte had lots of baby spiders. Yes. You've ordained a lot of people. Yes, a lot of spiders. I have correction fluid on my rock suit. Hold it up a little. I have correction fluid. You put correction fluid on it. I did. I... prize that correction fluid. Thank you. Thank you for putting the correction fluid on my rocks. It was nothing. Are all those little spiders, the little tiny ones, the bigger ones, are they all continuous mistakes?

[09:58]

Depending how you think. It's all on how we think. You can call everything that ever existed a mistake. It has to be a mistake because everything has more than one side. I see. When I was at Tassajara many, many years ago, Someone drove in at night. And I had to go out and ask them what they were doing. It turned out, the driver said, I have a whole jar from the black widows. And I'm going to put them where they belong.

[11:03]

We really rejoiced over that. Wow. They have their place. They have their place. And it wasn't in the jar. Yeah, I wouldn't think so. Mike, can you wrap up now? Yes. Thank you. There's one more thing. Mistakes are very important. It's really important to acknowledge our mistakes because that's how we learn and that's how we progress. When you make mistakes, we usually hold our head and we should say, I made some really good mistakes today. and they're really helping me a lot.

[12:07]

Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Desiree Webster. There you go. Can you hear me? I can. All right. Thank you, Sojin Roshi. My name is Desiree, and I'm a student of Ryushin Andrea Thatch. And I'm so happy to be able to participate in this public dokusan. So my question tonight is about courage. And what is the best way to cultivate courage for things, you know, that are most painful to bear witness to?

[13:15]

You know, things of great destruction or things, you know, that are so dear. I just wonder if you would say a little bit about cultivating courage. Well. I think being very honest and open about who you are. So I think that's the key. You know, to have the courage to say, I am afraid. To have the courage to move when you think something is going to block your way. You know, those are obvious. But then there's the courage that is deep inside of us that often we're afraid to express.

[14:21]

So everybody is afraid of something. Everybody's afraid of something, but not everybody's afraid of the same things. I had a student one time, and we talked about that a little bit. He, you know, enjoyed getting up on roofs and fixing them. And that I have done that, but I don't like doing it. It makes me nervous. But he said, but you, you get up there and talk in front of 100 people. That would scare the devil out of me. So I think it's really okay to say, I'm afraid of this by expressing the fear.

[15:37]

really goes a long way to neutralize it. Yeah. That's very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Hi, Sue. I had, well, two questions, but I can stop after the first one. I don't see you often enough that you should be stopping. A couple of weeks ago, you said when somebody comes to Doka-san, they should ask questions. The most important question.

[16:39]

And I have been thinking about that. And I was hoping to ask the most important question. But my question is, what is the most important question? Let's keep asking that question. That's the most important question. What is the most important question? I mean. That's a no-brainer. What is the most important question? It's our co-op. For everybody. You know, you don't have to ask the most important question. But you should embody the most important question. The most important question... is what you're dealing with all the time without necessarily being aware.

[17:44]

Could you say a little more about that? What's the most important question? After all, What is our life about? So, for a Zen student, the most important question is, what is the most important question? What am I really doing? What's really going on? There's so many things going on. And within each one of them resides the most important question. But we don't see it that way. We settle for, you know, superficial view of life.

[18:55]

So, I... encourage you to keep asking that question. That's the Zen student's question. That's why we practice. Thank you. You're welcome. Excuse me, Sabrina Maris. Yes. Hello, Sajin Roshi. I have been having so much trouble with my practice since the pandemic began because I've lost the space in my mind and in my life to actually practice the way I had been. And I tried at first to just sit in the chaos,

[20:03]

And the noise. And I started to get very frustrated and angry. And I thought, that's not good. So then I would try not sitting. And then I would get frustrated and angry with myself. Because I wasn't sitting. And I think until the pandemic is over, I will be in this situation where it feels like a fight. And I don't want to give up my practice. But... I'm feeling like if I try to just be in the chaos, I start to become the chaos. And I don't think that that's right either. So I need your advice. I need your guidance desperately. Well, the bottom line is how you settle. It didn't sound good when you said, I've made up my mind that I'm going to da-da-da. You can't never say never.

[21:04]

Even though you feel that way, it doesn't mean you have to live that way. Even though you feel like, oh, you know, I'm just going to ride this out until the end, you know, you're not going to do that. You know, it's... You don't have to be a super Zen student. In order to practice, you just settle in where you are. Just settle in yourself without blaming. The worst person in the world you can blame is yourself. Oh, I'm not doing this. Oh, I can't do this. Oh, I'm such a bad student. Just talk that out. Just sit down.

[22:09]

Cross your legs and breathe. You know, the reason we are bothered by our surroundings is because we choose to be bothered by it. You think you have no choice because the noise around you is so loud. It's hard. But what's hard is what our practice is. The question of courage came up. a few people ago. It's an important emotion. It's an important feeling.

[23:12]

Someone once said, you know, these people say this. Oh, you know, Zazen, It's just an endurance contest. To see if you can blah, blah, blah. Well, actually, that's true. It is an endurance. It's an endurance activity. It's not necessarily an endurance contest. So there's nothing you can test against. You are actually stronger than your surroundings. but you think that your surroundings are stronger than you. Have faith in your ability to sit still. And instead of being bothered by these things around you, which will never end,

[24:29]

to harmonize with yourself and your surroundings. When the noise starts coming in, you don't have to grasp it. Just let it come in, go through. The cool breeze blows through the empty hall. I want you to think about that. The empty hall. I'll think about that and not think about it. Don't think about it. Just do it. Just do it. I will. Thank you so much. Thank you. This will help me very much. Thank you so much. Okay. Good evening, Soju Roshi.

[25:39]

Suzuki Roshi said, you're okay as you are, and you can use some improvement. Which is the mistake? You're okay as you are, or you could use some improvement? They're both a mistake. Why did he say it? Ask him. I'm asking him now. You know, back in the 60s, the 60s, people, there were a lot of self-improvement schemes and practices. Yes. And Suzuki Roshi said, this is not a self-improvement practice. This is a practice of being who you are, accepting who you are.

[26:49]

And so he didn't deny improvement. He did not deny improvement. So he said, you are just exactly you as you are. But you could use a little improvement. That's good. Yes. That's good. Yes. That leads into my other, my next question. Between Dongshan and Yunnan. Just before leaving, Dongshan asked, If after many years, someone should ask if I am able to portray your likeness, how should I respond?

[27:49]

After remaining quiet for a while, Yunyan said, just this person. Yeah, just this. Just this, well... Mr. Powell had it just this person, but in any case, if in the future someone asks you, how would you portray your student, Seishi Tetsudo, what will you say? He's great just as he is. but he could use a little improvement. Oh, man. Thank you. Nancy Van House.

[28:53]

Good evening, Sergeant Roshi. Good evening. Good to see you. I miss seeing you around the neighborhood. Yeah, I don't walk around once anymore. Yeah. But I want to. Well, maybe I'll see you up front someday. Yeah. So you and I have known each other for a long time. And I've been in and out of BCC and in and out of being with another teacher whom you and I both know. And I want to thank you for being my teacher through all those years, regardless of whether I was at BCC. I carried you around with me in many ways. And your exchange with Sue Dunlop helped me to kind of fast forward through some of the things I was going to say to what my more important question is. You have your many decades of practice and of teaching and of seeing many, many students, some of them through many decades of their practice.

[29:58]

And so I want to draw on your wisdom in all of that. As I said, I've been in and out of practice. And what I tell myself is, well, just practice and then you'll see the value of practice. But it's kind of a chicken or the egg. It takes a certain amount of confidence, resolve, faith to practice. And that's a big reason why I kind of go back and forth is that I will. not only with myself, but I'll look around the room. So like when I was at Tassajara, it seemed to me that the majority of the people there were there because they'd rather get up at 3.50 in the morning than deal with the real world. What real world? Well, there's that. I felt like we were hiding behind those mountains. There is a real world? Well, there was a world outside of the mountains.

[31:02]

Oh, okay. Over my years and with various Dharma groups, I see people, you know, everybody brings their stuff to Dharma practice, but a lot of them, they never leave it behind. Practice or the Dharma community becomes the place where they engage with ego or whatever. And I did that, too. I may be projecting, but I think I'm projecting accurately. So the Buddha said to judge a teacher, look at his or her students. And I look at Dharma practitioners, many of whom I've known in various groups, and there are some people who inspire me, but there are a lot of people who I don't see that practice has done anything for them. And so that's not a source of confidence. So I don't know what to do. Well. no blame of me or them yes yeah yes you're doing pretty well but you need a lot of um

[32:30]

Letting go. Opinions. Values, valuations. Evaluations. This one should be inspiring me. How come they're not? Who are you inspiring? As an academic, there's a real bifurcation there where I will, not so much with Zen students and teachers, but with others, I will see them twist traditional teachings and try to use them to say things that I know they don't. Or I see people who, I mean, there are very few people I... would like to hear talk about Dogen, because I know the problems of translation and literature across centuries and cultures.

[33:39]

So it's very hard to listen and to watch and to not say, I don't see that there's any inspiration here. I mean, there literally isn't. I can't pretend if it's not there. Well, you know how you... get people to love you? I didn't know I was trying to get people to love me. No, this is my question. Yeah. You know how to do that? To love them. To love them. I know that's the standard answer, but... No, it's not the standard answer. It's the true answer. I'm not sure that I care. That's... That's really important. You know, especially this week with what's going on with the election, I look at all of these crazy Trump people and I think, I don't want to have anything to do with them.

[34:44]

I don't want to live in the same country with them. I don't I don't. Yes, you're not alone. I know. What will you do about it? I don't know. I don't know if it's a good answer, but it shouldn't be the definitive answer. So what's the next answer? The next answer is how do you inspire people? Why do I want to inspire people? Well, you wanted the answer, didn't you? I want to be inspired, I guess. You want to be inspired. But... You're not willing to inspire. I don't. No, I'm not. I don't see a need for that. Yeah. So you'll always be lonely. That's. That's OK.

[35:46]

Yeah, that's OK. Yeah, everything's OK. But maybe it's not. But the question isn't about loneliness. It's about practice. Well. Practice is about being one with everybody. Hmm. Even Trump? Yes, even Trump. He's a very lonely man. He needs your love, but don't give it to him. I don't know. Yeah, isolation is not such a good idea. I think that's another reason why people get into practice communities is because they want people to hang out with. And again, I don't think that's an appropriate reason. I mean, or it's fine with them, but I'm not going to do it.

[36:48]

I had an instance where I went to a Dharma training thing, and as I walked onto the property, somebody said to me, oh, I'm so happy to see you. And I knew I was supposed to say that back. But actually, I didn't know. Who said you were supposed to say that back? Well, because that's kind of the normal thing. What's the normal thing? Is there something that's normal? You know, you're just digging yourself into a hole. Probably, yeah. Not probably. Okay. My suggestion, if you want an answer to your question. Yes, I do. I would say, get up and do something. And be kind to people. What can I do for you? What can I do? Can I help you? Things will change. You want your life to change or do you want to say the same?

[37:51]

I don't know. You do know, but you won't say so. You won't admit to yourself. So you're getting to be kind of like, I'm going to go out in the garden to eat worms. You're getting there. Worms are healthy, but you don't have to eat them. Okay. I will think about all of this. Yes. Don't think about it. Just do it. Thinking is your problem. Because as an academic, I don't put down academics, but as an academic, you've trained yourself to hide behind academics. Yeah? Yes. Just get out of that. Drive off somewhere and go to the mountains. All right, I will.

[38:59]

Thank you. You're welcome. I'm Daniel O'Hare. Hi. Thank you for receiving. Uh, I have a question about, uh, well, it stems from, uh, painting, uh, like, uh, we could say rice cakes, uh, like, painting rice cakes or painting, uh, mountains or like mountains painting mountains or painting Buddhas painting I guess the question is like about

[40:28]

Like sort of the painting space, the like creative or like spontaneous painting space. But like... your thoughts on the painting space or the creative painting, rice cakes painting, Buddha's painting mountains, mountains painting mountains. Yeah. Well, you asked me a very complex question. And when you have a complex question with fragments, there has to be something that holds it together. You're talking about Dogen's painting of a rice cake.

[41:35]

Yeah, well, you should study it further. And put and and see it as a whole and not just fragments. Because I'm not sure which fragment you want to explain. And the other thing is, I don't explain things. Who explains things? Yes. Explanation explains things. Okay.

[42:48]

So I would say if you want any of those questions to be explained, you should thoroughly study what it is that you want explained. Because to me, those are all fragments. So I want you to be better prepared. You should be able to say, Dogen says, or talks about a painting of a rice cake. There's a whole fascicle on painting of a rice cake. So what kind of explanation do you want? What do you really want explained?

[43:50]

First thing that comes to mind is, who am I? Oh, that's a good one. Good one. Good question. So, who am I? Is an endless quest. Endless quest. Who am I? A better way or an alternative is, what am I? Because who implies a self? It's an endless quest because there is no self.

[45:09]

Inherent self. People go crazy asking that question. Who? Who? I, myself, and I. Who? It's the owl. What am I? What is this? Where am I? I is included there, that's so true, but instead of, what am I? What is this? What is this? What do you want to know about a red stick?

[46:39]

Dogen says painting a rice cake with rice and flour is the actualization, realization of rice cake. That's not doubtable. Not what? That's without a doubt. But he also says that the rice cake, don't confuse the rice cake with the rice cake that comes and goes. It's the rice cake before not... before born of father and mother and before father and mother.

[48:07]

So, what does before father and mother and after father and mother mean? See, the question is not for me to answer. The question is for you. What is your true nature before your father and mother were born? You have to look at the question behind the question. And in order to understand Dogen, you have to understand what his background and the metaphors that he's using.

[49:19]

That's why I say to you always, you should find a good teacher. Because your questions come from the top. They don't come from the bottom yet. The real question is, what is your true nature before your father and mother were born? It's okay. You should go in with that and feel happy about it. Can I say mountains and rivers? Yes. What about it? My true nature before my father and mother were born.

[50:30]

What about that? That's mountains and rivers? Yeah. No. In your ordinary mind, up until you enter practice, you have certain ideas about what things are. You establish knowledge based on what you think things are. Then when you enter practice, you let go of all that. You simply let go of all your ideas, all your understanding, and enter into practice, which means study, work, and when you have realization,

[51:41]

Through practice, when you come out the other side, you realize that nothing was what you thought it was. Everything looks the same, but you see it in a totally different way. You see it as it is, not as you thought it was. And you have to have faith in that. But it doesn't come without the practice. You can't just think it up or think the answer up. The answer has to come from the deepest part of your being. It hasn't got there yet. And it will help if you find a good practice with a good teacher. or good teachers.

[52:42]

You have to answer your own questions. I will not answer your questions for you. You have to do the work. You do the work, but it's not deep enough. So I recommend that. Thank you. You're welcome. Ben Claussen. Hi, Ben. Hi, Sojin. Good to see you. You're welcome. So Sojin, I don't think I knew this until recently or stepping down ceremony.

[53:55]

But I now understand the name Sojin means essence of purity. And my question is, what is purity? The other side of impurity. Purity is found within the impure. We want to split things, say, oh, this is pure, this is impure. There is validity to that. True purity is the essence of non-duality. To express purity, we do this.

[54:57]

This is the impure so-called, this is the pure so-called. So true purity is beyond purity and impurity. And vice versa. So, we shouldn't get stuck into impurity or impurity or in dualistic thinking about them. Although duality is important. Everything exists in duality at two sides at least. True purity is beyond purity and impurity. It's the way

[56:01]

Would you say to encounter purity, one should become well acquainted with impurity? Well, I would say let go of both of them. I can't express it for you, even though that's my name. Pure practice. I think you express it very well. Thank you, Soj. Julianne Coleman.

[57:08]

Hello, Sojin. Hi, Julianne. I have a question about, I'm working with my mind wandering a lot during Zazen. Jeez, during the club. I know. But I had a thought about, you know, the whole concept about giving your mind kind of a big field to wander in. But then if I understand correctly, the other side of that is to is like if the metaphor is to watch it, like to to give your mind the big field, but then also to kind of observe how it behaves. Am I reading that wrong? It's not wrong, but it's only one way of expressing something. So when we do zazen as a specific subject, the nature of the mind is to produce thoughts.

[58:27]

And it's doing it all the time. Right? Don't fix yourself. That's the nature of the mind. You should respect the mind. You should respect the workings of the mind. It's like having a bad TV show on all the time. That's okay. You can have a TV show in the background. It doesn't have to pervade your whole, unless it's really loud, it doesn't have to pervade your whole being. So when you sit sa zin, you make an intention to just sit. You have nothing to accomplish except to just sit straight, breathe, let the body breathe, and let the mind and body breathe.

[59:33]

Breath harmonize. So the mind, you know, is speaking loudly. So the thing about that is just don't let yourself be bothered by it. That's all. It's not going to hurt you. And you think, well, it's hindering my calm mind. But the calm mind is beyond all that. When you really can concentrate on the breath and let the body find itself, find its comfort. It should be comfortable. Not in the usual sense, but it should be comfortable. You should let your body be comfortable, which means at ease.

[60:39]

Even though you're making an effort to sit up straight, you also let your body be at ease. So that's where your mind, you have plenty to think about in Zazen. And the thing to think about is the thought of Zazen. That's the subject. So every time you sit zazen, you should give yourself zazen instruction. This is the way they put the legs up. This is the way that... And you're adjusting. It's a formal thing. Formal activity. And so give it its form. And if you give it its form, It will take, it will harmonize with the rest of your, it will harmonize with breathing, it will harmonize with thinking.

[61:47]

So you want your mind to harmonize with, there's also, just let the thoughts go through without attaching to them. That's stereotype. Let the thoughts go through without stereotyping and without blaming. Blame is the worst thing you could do. Oh, I'm such a bad person. Oh, I'm so terrible. Forget all that. That's nothing to do with it. That's just. Recall that. sinful, if we wanted to, to blame yourself for what you can't control. So you're not trying to control. You're allowing body, mind, and breath to harmonize by itself.

[62:49]

And if you give yourself Zazen instruction every time you sit, which means that when your mind wanders, You're thinking Lyme wanted. You keep bringing it back over and over and over. Oh, this is the 50th time in problem. 50 is a good number. It could be 150. Usually it is. Yeah. We do not say Zazen to worry. That is not the purpose of Zazen. The purpose of Zazen is to... Relax and let your body, mind and breath harmonize. And then that situation far surpasses the one where you're blaming yourself all the time. And this goes for everything.

[63:54]

How do you want to live it? Live it in harmony with the universe. When you can believe that and act that way, you'll start really enjoying things. Just being alive. When you can enjoy just being alive, then you can enjoy a lot of other things because that's the bottom line. Okay. Thank you. Yoni Ackerman. Good evening. Hi, Yoni. I always have an issue because I always feel like I want to ask you a question during these.

[65:01]

And then when I... sort of formulate a question, I start to get really confused about whether or not it's the right question. Oh, it's always the wrong question. Yeah. Any question is the right question. But I think I've really appreciated the questions and answers that I've heard this evening and actually wanted to piggyback off of Julianne if it's all right. Because when I practice... Bringing my mind back to my breath, it doesn't feel good. It feels like, get back there. God, get back. Your attitude. Yeah, and I don't know. Is there a different sentence I could use? Oh, yes. No blame. Why are you punishing yourself?

[66:05]

Bringing your attention back is not bringing your attention back. It's simply letting go of what you're thinking about now. And then you, I don't want to say automatically, but you just naturally, your mind just naturally, Mine's a big question. I don't like to use it. Your thoughts will return to their essence. So, you know, you like to think, don't you? Come on. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoyment of it. Yes. We enjoy our thoughts. Right. So we're not punishing our thoughts. Why do you want to punish yourself?

[67:09]

Get back. Get back. You dog. You like dogs. I have two cats. Oh, well. Cats are not. I don't listen to anything I say. Yeah. Well, you can't beat them. So literally or anyway. So just relax. So what if you don't get back to your thought? Why punish yourself? We do the best we can. So we keep making our effort over and over. Without the effort, there's no zazen. Because we think that... Not you. I'm saying that it's commonly thought that meditation or zazen is to just relax.

[68:20]

Let everything go. There is that quality. But only one quality is letting go of resistances. Important. The other quality is exerting ourself. So you don't feel good when you're just relaxing all the time, right? No, you feel good when you're exerting yourself. So that then is a kind of work. That's your work. And you make your effort and you do the best you can. And there's no such thing as the best zazen period. That's the best zazen period I ever had. Maybe I'm enlightened. No. There's no such thing as the best, as the most successful zazen period.

[69:25]

Every sazen period, if you really make the effort, is the best sazen period. So we evaluate, we judge and all that. I'm not saying you do, you may have said that, but just let go, so what? So you miss something. Not judging and not making judgments is the most important thing. Oh, my leg hurt, you know, so I put it down and I'm... When you do something wrong, don't apologize. It's just, this is what happened. This is what's happening. That's nothing. It's not like, I want to make it better or something. This is what's happening now. That's our practice. The core of our practice is this is what's happening right at this moment.

[70:32]

As each moment is changing. Our mind flows with a change. Our consciousness flows with a change. So that's the right amount of effort, the right amount of ease, and they should balance each other. That's the best thing to do with anything you do. So, just living your life, moment by moment. One moment at a time. There's no, you may count your breath, one, up to 10, but the numbers don't add up. It is to help you be present. You should try that. When you inhale, you exhale.

[71:34]

And when you exhale, you count one. Have you done that? Okay. That's a good thing to learn how to do. Because it helps to keep you concentrated on each breath. When you can really feel concentrated on each breath with ease in your shoulders and back and limbs, you feel, I don't want to promise what you'll feel, but it's the best way to harmonize. I have not had that much to do with you. I wish I did, and maybe I will. Thank you very much. My last speaker, Susan Marvin.

[72:39]

Sojin Roshi. Thank you so much for spending this lovely evening with all of us. As you delve into your past writing that book of many decades, I was wondering if you've come across something or you're considering something or there's some thread. that you might share with us tonight that might help us all navigate our way through this time of great division in our country, something that you see in your own life? Yes, yes. Well, I, you know, 67, we opened the Zendo in Berkeley at Toyota Way.

[73:50]

And at that time, there was all the disruption at the university. Students were running through the yard and climbing over the fence, chased by the police. I was concentrated, it didn't affect me, but I'd never been a university student. So I didn't really relate to the university students that way. I went to art school for a couple of years. That was my post-education. But when I started practicing Zanzen and opened Zendo, that's all I was interested in. So I wouldn't say that that was an escape. I could say that or you could say that, but I just wasn't interested in politics.

[74:58]

So we weathered through that easily. And then the next one was Reagan being president. And that affected us more. But, you know, because we didn't react to it in a reactive way, we just kind of, you know, did our thing and went on to the next one. You know, all these regimes change. And I think, plus the fact that a practice, it wasn't just, you know, ignoring what was going on, but the practice itself taught us how to be calm through every situation. how to find our calm mind and practice in that way through every situation.

[76:00]

And that's our practice. It's always been that way. And then Bush came along. We had all these regimes that were so undemocratic. And we were just practicing democracy in our Zen Center. And so to me, we were setting an example which was something we could do. Not some pipe dream, but something that actually we were doing amongst ourselves. So I've always felt that... upholding the spirit of democracy and the feeling that we could and were helping people, maybe not in the way that the stereotype way, but I felt that we were

[77:21]

exemplary in our lives. And that's what we were aiming at, to be exemplary in our lives. And we didn't do group activities much because we were in lay practice, basically lay practice at that time. And we also felt that practicing zazen and practicing the way was some kind of influence, good influence in the world. And I've always felt that just practicing our practice the best way we could and actually helping people however we could was our best contribution.

[78:25]

It was a different kind of contribution. Sounds like you're talking about the long view. Oh, yeah, the long view. We've always practiced the long view. Yes, our practice has always been the long view. And it also sounds like you're saying... Life is just like this. Life is just like this. It's not really any different this time. It's just a variation. It's just a variation of what's, yes, it's just been a variation, one after the other. And like a storm, weathering the storm. It does seem to me, and maybe it's just a poor memory, but, you know, I'm... I'm 25 years younger than you, but I bet you could say the same thing. When I was growing up in my neighborhood, there were a lot of Republicans and there were a lot of Democrats.

[79:33]

And I remember as a kid listening to adults argue and dispute each other and debate each other. discuss the issues, but at the end of the day, they sat down and ate together and barbecued together and danced together. And it doesn't seem like it's that kind of a time right now. No, it's not. And we have had very influential people sitting with us, practicing with us, for years, who were not, didn't have the values necessarily of what people think about us, who are not, you know, and anyway.

[80:41]

And influential people, not necessarily in the government, but in the munitions industries, atomic scientists and so forth. We always got along well together. And they were practicing those then. And I remember there was a time back in the 80s, I think it was, 70s or 80s, 80s, 90s, 90s, yeah. Where we had people from the rad lab, radiation laboratories,

[81:45]

practicing with us seriously. And I moderated many differences that people had with them. And we ended up really respecting doing the same practice and respecting each other. So that was a kind of, to me, that was a big contribution. Well, that's an inspiration. We need to bring Zazen out into the streets, maybe. No. No. Thank you, Sojin Roshan. I don't want to name names. I could, but... I didn't ask permission.

[82:46]

Thank you. Would you like to take more questioners or do you think we should wrap it up? Let me see. It's 27 after. 28 after. Okay. I have some relatives visiting and this is a time for me to talk to them. But I can take a couple of questions. Okay. I hear somebody talking. Who's that? What was that? How about Phyllis Shepard? Who? Phyllis Shepard. I'm sorry, Shepard. Oh, Phil. Gerard.

[83:58]

Hi, Judy. I'm new. Okay. Hello? You're on, Phil. Okay, good. My question has to do with self and sense of self. And it came up when I did a way-seeking mind talk. And the two weeks before the talk, I was haunted by thinking about my past and how I would present myself, et cetera, et cetera. And trying to understand self because I want to... understand my sense of self today and not get so involved with what quote unquote happened to me in my, as I was growing up, as I was becoming. And I want to know if you can give me any idea of how to avoid getting entangled with a inflated sense of self.

[85:08]

Okay. So the reason that there's no self is because there is a self. But it's a self, it's not a self. When we say no self, it doesn't mean that there's nobody there. It means something like no inherent self. In other words, no self that doesn't change. So anything that changes, we say, is not completely real. The only thing that is totally real is nothing. The only thing that is totally real is that which doesn't change. So if you can find that, you bring it to me.

[86:14]

It's the past self that I have trouble with. Yes, it's the past self because you thought it was the self. Well, at the time, I didn't know any different. Yeah, no. So the past self, you know, so we do have a self. Yes. It creates karma, it does things. Yes. Sorry, what they did and all that, right? Yes. So we have a self and we don't have a self. And the self that we think we have is not a real self. It's the self that is created. So anything that's created is not completely true. What is true is that which never changes. So I have a temporary self that I call myself and relate to as an individual.

[87:29]

If we could, if you could possibly Let go of our idea of self, ego. Self is the center. Instead of relating to what we call the self as the self, the whole universe is the self. Isn't that better? The whole universe is the self? Yes. Okay. That's allowing the universe to direct us. Instead of, you know, we do need self-direction. So it's complicated, right? But statistically thinking... You know, there's a saying. The bodhisattva's halo...

[88:35]

It's the whole universe. Let me cough a little. We also think the whole universe is the true self. but we have to narrow it down, right? We can't go around, you know, walking around saying, I am the whole universe, put you in jail. But... The more we can... I'll put it this way.

[89:39]

Oh yeah. So the more selfish we are, the more self-centered we are, blocks our paths to actually being Buddhist-centric. So in order to practice the Dharma, we trade in our self-centeredness and move over to being Buddhist-centric. That's what it means to practice Buddhism.

[90:45]

Yes. Buddhist-centric. Buddhist-centric instead of self-centric. But, you know, it's not correct to say there's no self. Okay, it's time for you to get a glass of water there. Thank you. Thank you very much. You've given me a lot to think about. Yes, it's a lot to think about. Good. My way of thinking about it. Thank you very much.

[91:49]

You're welcome. Maybe take one more, Janette. Janette, can you unmute? Thank you. Hello? Who's this? This is William Powell. William Powell. Nice to see you. My name was used tonight. You what tonight? My name came up tonight, so I thought I'd put in an interjection. Good. You were talking about the Tozon conversation with Yun Yan. Well, I wasn't talking about it. Someone asked me about it. Somebody else was talking about it. I was, Mr. Powell. Thank you so much for this book and translation. You're welcome.

[92:51]

But I want to remind Sojun that in 1980, when I came back from Japan, you and I sat together and went through every single case in that book as I was finishing my translation. Yes. So, in fact, when it came up that... Yan Yan says, just this person or just this. Yes, yes. Most later versions of the text were just this. Oh. So that's what you were saying. Thank you. But Yanagira Sensei pointed out to me that in the earlier version, the Hall of the Patriarchs, the line was just this person of Han. Oh, that makes perfect sense. And what that meant was that was a formulaic confession of guilt in a Chinese court.

[93:53]

It was a legal term. So Yanagida thought that maybe what that was saying was that I'm the one who did this. I'm the one who's whatever I am. And we don't answer that question necessarily. Right. It's just me right here. I'm fully responsible. No one else is as well. I guess that's hard to say as well. Yes. Yeah. Good or bad. I'm the one. I'm mea culpa. And that was Yun Yan's last comment to Tozan as far as I remember. Yes. That was so much fun. I enjoyed that thoroughly. Yeah. This left a deep impression. I had an opportunity to spend so much time with you doing that. I wish we could do it all over again. You want to? You live so long. Thank you very much, Shojin. I don't want to keep you any longer. I just wanted to throw that in there.

[94:56]

You can keep me as long as you like. Thank you.

[94:59]

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