So last time I talked about Tozan's Five Ranks in an overview. I gave an overview of Tozan's Five Ranks. And I said in the beginning that I wasn't going to talk about them in detail because I was going to do that during the practice period, when we have those three classes during the practice period. And I was going to talk about the five ranks in detail at that time, because as an independent subject, so that the people in the practice period who are not in this class would not be coming in on something continuing. So I'm just going to continue with the Hokyo Zamai from the point where we left off last time.

[01:09]

What I want to do is I'm going to read up to that point just to give some continuity. The Dharma of thusness is intimately transmitted by Buddhas and ancestors. Now you have it, preserve it well. A silver bowl filled with snow, a heron hidden in the moon. Taken as similar, they are not the same. Not distinguished, their places are known. The meaning does not reside in the words, but a pivotal moment brings it forth. Move and you are trapped. Miss and you fall into doubt and vacillation. Turning away and touching are both wrong, for it is like a massive fire. Just to portray it in literary form is to stain it with defilement. In darkest night, it is perfectly clear. In the light of dawn, it is hidden. It is a standard for all things. Its use removes all suffering.

[02:14]

Although it is not constructed, it is not beyond words. Like facing a precious mirror, form and reflection behold each other. You are not it, but in truth it is you. Like a newborn child, it is fully endowed with five aspects. No coming, no going, no arising, no abiding. Baba Wawa, is there anything said or not? In the end it says nothing, for the words are not yet right." And then he talks about the five ranks. In the illumination hexagram, apparent and real interact. Piled up, they become three. The permutations make five, like the taste of the five-flavored herb, like the five-pronged vajra." So I talked about re and g, the absolute and the relative.

[03:20]

The dark circle and the light circle. I just want to go over a little bit again. The dark circle is, I want to talk about it in a little different way. The dark circle is by retreating from the world. And the light circle is by entering the world. So in the realm of practice, this is very fundamental. In the realm of practice, one leaves the world and one re-enters the world. That's the rhythm of practice. When you come to the zendo in the morning you leave the world and when you step out the door you re-enter the world.

[04:31]

When you come enter the zendo and sit zazen, that's, Sikhira has the term for it, he says the world disappears and there's only the absolute world and then when you re-enter when you walk out the door your practice is in positive samadhi where you enter the world of activity but that's also samadhi so and that's where everything is illuminated The dark circle, the absolute side, is sometimes called the upright, like this.

[05:41]

And the light side is called the inclined. When this upright, when In the realm of the upright, there's no movement. Nothing's stirring. There's no stirring. And then when the upright inclines, then it's off center. And when it's off center, there's movement. And so it's sometimes called the upright and the inclined. When you sit in zazen, this is the upright. This is why posture is so important in zazen. You sit up with your spine erect. You don't lean forward.

[06:44]

You don't lean back. you don't lean to the left, and you don't lean to the right. And to maintain that posture is zazen. That's the upright. That's absolute samadhi, where nothing is stirring. And even though there's buzzing in the mind and so forth, one maintains this stillness. and doesn't react. No reactions. But when Zazen is over, then you move, right? Incline. And then movement starts. And then this is the light side. The inclined.

[07:46]

and one starts moving in the world. So in the first circle is the light side hidden within the dark. That means absolute samadhi. the second circle, the dark side, is hidden within the light. So the first circle is the upright, the second is the inclined, where the dark side is hidden within the light side. So the first circle is like absolute samadhi, the second circle is like positive samadhi.

[08:49]

So these are the two fundamental aspects of practice which is exemplified through zazen. You just said the first circle is like absolute, and the second circle is... It could be the other way around. But you mean the dark circle is the absolute. Yeah, the dark circle is, yeah. So here, from here, see it has the light. If you go like this... That's different. I'm talking about the first two. There is a dark circle, and there is a light circle, right? And there are two circles that are half and half. So you're talking about the half and half? The half and half. Oh, okay. That's the first and the second. Those are the two, the base, the two base ones, basic. Yeah? When you talk about the dark hidden in the light in the diagram, is that where it's mostly light at the top and those small dark at the bottom?

[09:55]

Or I'm not sure how to read it. Go the other way around, yeah. Which one is where the dark is hidden in the light over the top? In those two illustrations, they're somewhat even. So that's a little problem. One is much darker than the other, and when it's much lighter, it should be much lighter than the other. But they're somewhat even, right? So just think about it that way, right? Think about it as the first one is the dark dominating, and the second one is the light dominating. Sometimes they're switched. It doesn't really matter which is which because they're just both illustrating a point. And whether you say the absolute within the relative is first or the relative within the absolute, it doesn't really matter. Sometimes that's confusing, but it doesn't matter which one you say is first because they're simply just two opposites.

[11:08]

Is that a problem for any people? Okay. So, these are just the two fundamental aspects of the dependent realm and the absolute realm. The dependent realm is the realm where there are individuals and all individual things are dependent. And that realm is called dependent origination. It's also called the realm of karma. the realm where things are caused by other things and have results.

[12:16]

That's the light side. The light side is the realm of karma, the realm of dependent origination, the realm of dependency. It's very interesting, in the Sandokai lectures of Suzuki Roshi, when he this book, Brandishing Strange Flow in the Dark, which we just published. Suzuki Roshi talks about all this without talking about certain concepts. But if you read certain Yogacara philosophy, you will see how that understanding, he's talking about that understanding without naming it. For instance, there are the three natures. Paratantra, Parakalpita and Paranuspana.

[13:23]

Those are called the three natures. Paratantra is the nature of imagination. Parakalpita is the nature of dependency. And parinirvana is the nature of consummated understanding or non-duality. So everyone lives, everyone has these three natures. The nature of dependency is the karmic world. And the nature of imagination is thought or theoretical thinking. And parinirvana is the nature of absolute reality.

[14:31]

So when When the dependent nature and the nature of imagination are working together, that's called the realm of delusion. When the dependent nature and the consummated nature are working together, that's called the realm of enlightenment. So the absolute nature is like the dark side, the dark circle. The dependent nature is like the light circle. And imagination belongs to the dependent nature, but it stands by itself.

[15:38]

So I don't know if this information means anything to you, but it's very interesting how all these models come together and agree with each other. But they're models, different kinds of models. depending on your imagination? Our delusion? Well, because they're still in the realm of duality. They're operating in the realm of duality without coming to the understanding of reality. They belong to the realm of reality when that when the realm, when the dependent nature is in sync with the consummated nature.

[16:59]

So that thinking, you know, or imagination has a true basis. So for an artist, right? Well, what about the artist, you know? How does the artist paint truth or, you know, so forth? Usually without thinking. Without too much thinking. Like children, art is always great. Adults should also have great art as well. But children's art is always great because they just do it without thinking and it's very direct. So adult art,

[18:08]

An adult artist always wants to work in a non-contrived way. When we look at a painting, we say, oh, that's contrived, meaning it's just imagination. And then we look at another painting, we say, that's very direct. It's not contrived. There's no contrivance. It's without a mediation. without anything in between, that the artist's spirit is on the canvas without anything distorting it, without mind or imaginative distortion. So it's like openness and directness and so forth. If it's too cerebral, then there's a big risk of losing the essential, the intuition.

[19:41]

Anyway, so I just wanted to say that much about the five ranks that came to me this morning. So since I talked about it last time, I'm going to go on. So in the illumination hexagram, apparent and real, interact. Piled up, they become three. The permutations make five, like the taste of the five-flavored herb, like the five-pronged vajra. Wonderously embraced within the real, drumming and singing begin together." Drumming and singing clearly says inquiry and response. which I think is okay, but it's not literal. Literally, it's drumming and singing begin together.

[21:02]

It's more of a poetic term. I think deep, what it really means is practice and enlightenment come up together. Like Dogen says, Practice is enlightenment and enlightenment is practice. As soon as there's a real practice, then enlightenment is there. So that's like drumming and singing. Once you start drumming, practice starts singing. Once you start drumming, enlightenment starts singing. But this means really practicing. I used to think of it as a kind of machine, you know, like when you make the wheel go around, then electricity is generated.

[22:05]

And then when the wheel stops, there's no electricity. It's like creating the energy to produce, creating the movement to produce the energy. I think this is a good illustration of the third rank. The third rank is that white circle And that's the circle of activity. And when it's activated, there's a black dot in the middle. And that's like enlightenment. That's a black dot. It's at the center of the activity.

[23:09]

So the activity is permeated with enlightenment. Yes. I think that's really true, that practice and enlightenment come up together. I believe that I can verify that in my practice, or do verify it. But the problem I have, the problem that comes up for me, is when I feel like I'm sincerely practicing, and there's that realization that comes from that effort, I do know exactly what you mean. It's difficult to maintain the practice for the sake of the practice. Yeah, that's true. It's hard to do. someone training for the big race.

[24:29]

You train for the big tennis match and then you have this goal in mind, but actually you're just running or you're just playing tennis. A lot of people don't understand that running is just for the sake of running. Tennis is just for the take of tennis. It's like you work all week and then somebody gives you the paycheck and you say, oh yeah, I forgot all about that. There's that too. If you can work like that, that's called practice. Otherwise, you're just doing something for some other purpose.

[25:33]

And when you're doing something for some other purpose, it's not enlightened practice. You're wasting your life. You're sacrificing this moment for some other time. So, Real practice, positive samadhi, is to just do this work for the sake of the work, do the activity for the sake of the activity, without thinking about results, worrying about results. We have a result in mind, but at the same time, we have something to accomplish, but at the same time, We're just doing what we're doing. Yes? So many examples instantly spring to mind. But Richard Feynman, a famous physicist, said at one point, when he was working on physics, he became very much, in order to, became very much, when he was first a professor, and he finally decided, he said when he was shaving one day, he was only going to do it for the fun of it.

[26:46]

And he stopped worrying about any results, and he didn't care if he got any results or tenure or anything. He said successful physicists. Well, that's right. That's why he was so successful. Well, he went and did mathematics with trays spinning in the cafeteria where people throw them. And he just did it for the hell of it. And then he showed it to someone who said, what good is that? Later, it turned out to describe something he got the Nobel Prize for. Right. Yeah. I don't know if it's dangerous to take him too literally, drumming and singing arise together. In Japan there is a practice, and in China I guess there's a long tradition of the... And many times they do this along with some action. This happens, it's like becoming one with the breath. It may be easy to think that if we drum, that we drum from here, or from here.

[27:57]

But they really arise together, where they originate from. And we think, we naturally think of the singing as arising with the breath. Well, if you're a drummer, you do. Right. Yeah, definitely. I used to know a drummer named Sparky. And he said, yeah, you know, you always drum from here. You're always aware of your breathing when you're drumming. Always aware of it coming out of here. Piano playing as well. Do you think that has anything to do with kind of what they're pointing toward? Well, not exactly, but I think, you know, what you're saying relates to this. But I don't think that that's what they're talking about. They're talking about practice and enlightenment.

[29:05]

Practice and realization arise together, wondrously embraced within the real. drumming and singing come up together, begin together. This is kind of like the dark side and the light side. It's like It's called coming from within the real. Coming from within the real. So that all of your activity is purposeless. It's idiot's activity.

[30:15]

Purposeless. Purposeless doesn't mean that there's no purpose. What does it mean? It means that you just do the thing for the sake of the thing. It means you do it without self-centeredness or ego. There's always a purpose in things. Everything has a purpose. There's always a goal when you do something. Otherwise you just kind of wander around, bump into trees. Until you get tired of it. Until you get tired of it, yeah. Then you start thinking. Yes? There's a place where I feel I can get lost. I get lost when I'm not doing or when it's happening. I lose myself. When it's not? I mean, the act, you become the act, or the act is.

[31:24]

The I, in doing the act, disappears. And there's something about misconstructing an I that fits, that is functional in the world. I think that we live in a society in which We have to be aware of a certain type of ego in order to survive in the world. And we start to manufacture that in order to exist. There's ego and then there's true personality. So when one lets go of ego, then one depends on true personality. The true personality is not the same as ego, even though egotistical activity is where one is operating out of a self, a constructed self.

[32:31]

True personality is where there's thinking, there's feeling, there's seeing, hearing, so forth. There's even discrimination. But there's no discriminator. There's no thinker, even though there are thoughts and discrimination. In our society, we have a strong emphasis on being individuality. And it's different from the Japanese culture and tradition in which this tradition comes from. Traditionally, yes. Japanese culture is more based on letting go of individuality for the sake of the whole.

[33:39]

So there has to be a balance. If you're too much on the side of the group only, then there's something missing. And if you're too much on the side of individuality, there's something missing. So these two groups should get together and balance each other out. We need some of that, and they need some of this. We have to move as individuals and we also have to move together with everyone. But moving as an individual doesn't cancel moving with others and moving with others doesn't cancel moving as an individual.

[34:44]

The individuality is ego building. Unless it's tempered, it's totally ego building. And then we're only out for ourselves. Then you have a society which is divided and everybody's out for themselves. As soon as something happens in this society that cuts the thread that holds it all together, it's going to be mayhem. Although there are many generous people. So... Yes? Take a little break. A little break, okay. Take a few minutes. so

[35:58]

Okay, so he says, wondrously embraced within the real, drumming and singing begin together. Penetrate the source and travel the pathways. Penetrate the source is maybe like absolute samadhi. Travel the pathways is positive samadhi. So travel the Penetrate the source, that's the dark. Travel the pathways, that's the light. Embrace the territory and treasure the roads. So embrace the territory, I guess that means... Be aware of where you are.

[37:43]

Be aware of where you are. Be aware of your surroundings. See the world as yourself. And treasure the roads. to be rooted in big mind, responding to circumstances, basically. To always be rooted in big mind and responding to circumstances. Being rooted in big mind is to ease up on ego and respond to circumstances. You would do well to respect this, to not neglect it. It's a little admonition. Then he says, natural and wondrous.

[38:53]

It is not a matter of delusion or enlightenment. It's not a matter of whether one is enlightened or deluded. Delusion and enlightenment are a duality. If there's delusion, then there's enlightenment. If there's enlightenment, then there's delusion. So they're really a duality. So enlightenment is not enough. Enlightenment is not enough. One should always go beyond enlightenment. One should not get stuck in enlightenment. One should not get stuck in delusion. Enlightenment sees through delusion. Within enlightenment is delusion. Within delusion is enlightenment.

[39:55]

It's not a matter of one or the other. When one has enlightenment, one also respects delusion. Because an enlightened Zen master is still subject to the law of cause and effect. That's a major koan. It's not a matter of delusion or enlightenment. I have a little saying by somebody that says, wonderful is the eternal reality beyond delusion and enlightenment. So, the precious mirror is non-dual.

[40:58]

Non-dual means there is not an enlightenment opposed to a delusion. If you only have enlightenment, which is opposed to delusion, you're just trading places. Of course, it's kind of nice to be in enlightenment instead of delusion, right? We think, but you could just as soon be in delusion as in enlightenment. So, we're deluded in the midst of our enlightenment. and we're enlightened in the midst of our delusion. It's not otherwise. This is why, if you become enlightened, you will be very humble.

[42:04]

If somebody says, I am enlightened, and they're strutting around proclaiming their enlightenment, that's total delusion. It's not total delusion. If it was total delusion, it would be enlightenment. So you have to be very careful about talking about enlightenment. It's a risky subject. Is that sort of relating to the Heart Sutra where it ends with the gathe, gathe, the always going beyond? Going beyond, yeah, going beyond, going beyond. Always going beyond any sort of duality. Yes. Sort of like, I forget the story, of a student who had solved his koan or had broken through it, had his awakening, his enlightenment, goes running to the teacher He wants to clear what he's found and the teacher recognizes that and grabs him by the ear and tweets him a little bit more and says, now you have it.

[43:15]

Take him beyond thinking, well, I'm so enlightened now. So when one is truly enlightened, one acts as an ordinary person. It should be so. And then he says, so he says, natural and wondrous. Natural and wondrous. It is not a matter of delusion or enlightenment. Within causes and conditions, time and season, it is serene and illuminating. It means the mirror, right? Within causes and conditions, time and season, it is serene and illuminating.

[44:15]

So, this is like in the conditioned realm, in the dependent realm, the mirror is always shining through all of our activity. Serene and illuminating. silently illuminating through, it means through our practice. Whether we recognize it or not, usually we don't. Master U Mon says, each one of you has a light But when you go to look for it, it's dark and dim.

[45:19]

And you can't find it. You don't see it. Because you're looking for something in the realm of imagination. Or light. The light. That's imagination. It's beyond the realm of imagination. And it doesn't look like what we picture as light. And enlightenment is not, doesn't conform to our picture. So that's why in the realm of imagination, there's nothing wrong with imagination. It's just that imagination doesn't hit it, doesn't hit the mark. So one has to let go of, that's why you just do the work, without thinking about the goal, because the goal is always in the imagination. And when the dependent realm and the imaginative realm hook up together, it's delusion.

[46:34]

But when the dependent realm, nature, and the conservative nature hook up, That's enlightenment. That means you just do the work without imagining what the end is or imagining what the fruit is. Andrea? Well, I was just thinking, I was just going to say before you said that it seems like we don't really have to worry about it so much. I mean, it's wonderful to talk about and it's very inspiring. It sounds so great, but It doesn't, it seems like it's arbitrary or you don't, but so what do you do? Okay. You know, it's like, yes, it's like, if you try to, it's like this. Are you showing me?

[47:56]

I had it here. I had your answer right here. Well, I'll have to reconstruct it. If you go after it, then it runs away from you. If you don't go after it, nothing happens. You stumble past. So you have to both go after it and forget it at the same time. How do you do that? K-O-A-N. Isn't there a place in the imagination, well I'm kind of thinking like what Yomi called collective unconscious, or is it something beyond

[49:24]

what we can describe that each one of us may have access to beyond description. I think there's something about that in terms of what we're talking about in terms of the absolute ethics. That's still thinking. A lot of thinking. A lot of thinking. A lot of imaginative. Yes. Even though it's beyond our imagination, do you agree that the term precious jewel near Somalia is about as close as we can get to naming it? It's what? Naming is what? I think, I mean, I think it totally hits the mark.

[50:26]

It's saying, you know, precious jewel mirror. It's probably the closest you can get to describing it, but it describes the actual, I don't want to say experience, but it describes, maybe not description, but... It's not a description of the thing. It's simply a nomenclature of pointing to something. Yeah, but to say that it's precious truly, I think it truly is precious. It's something very remarkably wonderful. Well, yeah. Incredible, beyond imagination, like you said. Yeah, it's that which is, is. It's that which truly is. Yeah. Charlie? You have something to say? I didn't have my hand up, but I will mention it about Jimmy's cosmology, where God is up here, and on the left side is the lightness, and we have Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and on the right is the darkness, and we have the boogeyman and the witch.

[51:47]

And I think it's almost a direct parallel to what we're talking about. No, it's not. Okay. Because that imaginative construction makes the dark evil and the light good. And this has nothing to do with good and evil. Dark is not evil and light is not good. Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Form is form and emptiness is emptiness. Right, but when we have these pictures, you know, these bright and dark... Yes. You know, I think... It has nothing to do... It isn't very helpful. It has nothing to do with good and evil. If you get off the good and evil... Well, that's right. No. Just another construction. I wasn't making a direct parallel at all. But just somebody else's idea of...

[52:56]

the way reality is. Is that supposed to be a trial? Well, it is somebody else's idea. But so are all ideas somebody else's idea. I think that was connected to my question, which is about the word imagination, because I feel like maybe it's just our culture, but I've always I've learned to think of the imagination as this infinite, limitless, liberating thing, and I'm feeling like, maybe this is what George is talking about, I'm having to use my imagination quite a bit to even follow this class, so are we using it as much as I can here? Well, since we have imagination, we're indulging our imagination, we're using it We're using it as a way of pointing to something.

[54:04]

It's a way of pointing to something. We use our mentality to construct models of reality. If we didn't have these models which are part of our study, how would you direct yourself to understand what it is that you're doing? So there's simply aids, like pointing at something, and helping you to direct your attention to what is involved in practice. Brooks? Tim and I were down, what was it, 7th Street, and we met this guy just about a month ago who was, I think he said he was from the streets, lived on the street.

[55:26]

And he went into this run-on monologue for about 45 minutes. And it was really kind of an upsetting experience for me. I felt that he had absolutely no discipline on his thinking mind, his imagination. I mean, he's a very intelligent guy. His references suggested that he'd read a lot and was fairly current. But after leaving that meeting I thought that in practice we are disciplining a mind that just wants to run amok like that. Right. Right. So this teaching helps us to discipline our mind to think about things, to help direct our attention to what practice is about or our understanding is about.

[56:38]

So I have to keep justifying why we study. I want to get on, I do want to get on with this because we need to do that. So he says, it's so vast, I'm sorry, so minute, he's talking about the mirror, it's so minute it enters where there is no gap and it is so vast it transcends dimension. So it's bigger than big and smaller than small. The hair spreads deviation and you are out of tune. Now, a hair spreads deviation from what? What is he talking about when he says a hair spreads deviation? Well, you know, it's not like you want to stay upright. You have to incline. So,

[57:46]

It's not like inclining is a deviation. When two notes are together, you can hear the ripples. Uh-huh. The beats. But if they're moving together... If they're moving together, when your activity and your understanding are moving in harmony, then things are in tune. As soon as ego enters into the picture, then things start getting out of tune. That's the deviation. As soon as self-centeredness starts to take over, then there's a separation, a duality. and then things get out of tune.

[58:49]

And so you have to keep bringing back into tune all the time because we do get out of tune, you know. Our little ego starts asserting itself, you know, and then we let go of that and we come back into tune. And that's our practice is we get out of tune and then we tune up and then we get out of tune and then we tune up. It's kind of like dark and light, you know, coming into focus. When they're in perfect focus, there's no dark and there's no light. But as soon as they separate, then you see the dark and the light. But when they're perfectly in focus, that's beyond delusion and enlightenment. Rebecca, do you have something to say? I'm just nodding yes. And then he says, now there are sudden and gradual in which teachings and approaches arise.

[59:58]

He's talking about, now he's talking about sudden and gradual practice, right? And that there are different teachings according to different teachers. There is, you know, in those days, especially in Sekito's time, This is of course after Sekito, right? So in a way there's a kind of allusion, I think, to Sekito's Sandokai, where he's talking about the sudden and the gradual in connection with the sixth ancestor's students, the gradual school and the sudden school. Sikhito's time, which was two generations or a generation after the sixth ancestor, the students were arguing over the sudden school, which was correct, the sudden school or the gradual school, and there was a lot of contention and a split and Sikhito kind of wrote the Sandokai.

[61:12]

One of his reasons was to criticize those people who were splitting off into the sudden school and the gradual school and criticizing Jinshu and raising up Eno. Within sudden enlightenment there's gradual practice and within gradual practice there's sudden enlightenment. It's not one or the other. To think that there's sudden enlightenment or sudden practice and And the Sixth Patriarch says this too, he says, some people are more attuned to intuitively grasp something and others have to learn it in a methodical, slower way. Yes? What is that sort of like in the world when we sin? It's sort of like, is that akin to saying it took someone ten years to become an overnight success?

[62:17]

It took somebody 20 years to get to the point where they have sudden enlightenment. So sudden and gradual are not such a big deal anymore. Now there are sudden and gradual in which teachings and approaches arise. When teachings and approaches are distinguished, each has its standard. So each teacher has their own way and dealing with students, and we shouldn't compare them as to which is right and which is wrong. If the teaching is genuine, it's incomparable. As long as the teaching is genuine, and it's true, each teacher has their own way of dealing with students and with themselves, which is natural to them. So whether teachings and approaches are mastered or not, reality constantly flows.

[63:31]

What is reality and what is flowing? One translation is true eternity still flows. That's what you got? Well, that's not the new translation. That's the old translation. Reality is the new translation. Reality, true eternity. I like reality better. Well, actually, you know, endlessly, whether teachings and approaches are mastered or not, there's endless, things flow on endlessly.

[64:45]

But eternity is pretty good, in a way, because what it means is that eternity is something that is non-flowing. There's a saying, the river stands still while the bridge flows. It's like there is flowing and there is stillness. And I talked about this before. There is continuous time and discontinuous time. Continuous time is just this moment of now, which is always this moment of now. Anytime you want to say now, you say now.

[66:01]

But now is just always now, because it's not then. When we look back, we say then. But that moment of now, which is then, was now. Where did it go? Does now go someplace? How can now go someplace? So it's very hard to grasp the past, the present and the future. But now is just constant. That's continuous time. But we chop it up into events. One o'clock and two o'clock and springtime and winter and just continuous time. So whether teachings and approaches are mastered or not, reality constantly flows.

[67:13]

That which is continuous or that which is still is flowing. It's like a river, you know, when you look at a river from above The water is flowing, but the river is standing still. The river is not going anywhere. It's standing still and flowing at the same time. Reality constantly flows. That which is still is always moving. because stillness is its movement, and movement is its stillness. Did you want to say something? Yeah, I was going to say, perhaps, talking about whether teachings and approaches are vast or not, reality is still close, isn't that another way of saying that within

[68:27]

enlightenment, there's delusion, and within delusion, there's enlightenment. Because what is real is unaffected by delusion. The real is always present, regardless of what the imagination or any other kind of delusion is doing at the same time. In fact, the imagining itself is the real. It's just that belief in what is imagined is delusion. Well, that's nice. I like that. That's a good way of looking at it. Whether or not one has good understanding or doesn't have good understanding, the fact is that things are what they are.

[69:45]

That's very true. And then he says, Outside still and inside trembling, like tethered colts or cowering rats, the ancient sages grieved for them and offered them the Dharma. There's some questions about who he's talking about, but it seems like he would be talking about those people who seem like they have something, but inside it's not genuine. And then the ancient sages grieved for them and offered them the Dharma. Led by their inverted views, they take black for white. When inverted thinking stops, the affirming mind naturally accords.

[70:51]

So it's a little confusing, I think, because inverted views means upside-down views. In the Heart Sutra there are the perverted views, which literally means topsy-turvy views, upside-down views, which means taking the permanent to be permanent, and taking what is bondage for liberation. Those are the upside down views. These are the views of people usually outside the way. So he's talking about those who feel they have enlightenment, but don't.

[71:56]

Those are usually people inside the way. So it's a little confusing to me, but still outside still and inside trembling like tethered colts or cowering rats. The ancient says greet for them and offer them the Dharma. So this could be anyone. Led by their upside-down views, inverted views, topsy-turvy views, they take black for white. One way of thinking about that is attachment to either samadhi or prajna. There are those people who, in Buddhism, Buddhist meditation, there's those people who lean toward samadhi and those people who lean toward prajna the people who lean toward samadhi are usually people who do a lot of meditation because meditation is samadhi and people who lean toward prajna are people who are more mental they're the wisdom side but actually prajna

[73:19]

and samadhi arise together. So one should not lean toward one side or the other. When practicing true samadhi, prajna is there. And when prajna is there, samadhi is there as well. This is one of the well-known statements from the Platform Sutra. Samadhi is the lamp and Prajna is the light of the lamp. So when inverted thinking stops, when topsy-turvy views are overturned, the affirming mind naturally accords. So one must get the proper views in sight. That's why it's important to study as well as practice so that you understand what proper views are.

[74:24]

Yes? What about the precepts or vows? I mean, that's action. You can't really think about the precepts. You don't think about the precepts? Well, I'm thinking that a friend recently said, I've decided I'm a Buddhist. And so, and he said, I've never taken a vow in my life. And, and I was kind of concerned because I thought, well, how can you be a Buddhist or, or without a practice or some, how can you, is that possible? That's called the Pratyekabuddha. A Buddha who just listens to the Dharma, but doesn't practice. I'm sorry, it's a Shravaka. Sravaka is the listener, the one who hears the dharma but is not engaged in the practice.

[75:27]

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