Good morning everyone and welcome to Berkeley Zen Center. Today's speaker is Imo Denke Raul Moncayo. Imo Denke translates as suchness, field of blessings. Denke is originally from Chile and he began practicing Zen in Paris and then came to Berkeley and has been at Berkeley Zen Center for 40 years now. Denke is a psychoanalyst He was a therapist at Mission Mental Health in the Mission of San Francisco serving the Latino community for 30 years and has had a long-time private practice which continues to support him and to support others seeking his help.

[01:04]

Denke was ordained by Sojin Roshi and received Dharma transmission a few years ago and is one of our senior teachers here at BCC. Please welcome Denke. Thank you, Ross, very much. I'm not going to speak about those things that Ross mentioned. Today I want to read some excerpts from Suzuki Roshi's compilation of lectures by Ed Brown. lectures of Suzuki Roshi in the book is called Not Always So. I think you're all familiar with it. So Ed Brown was one of the old-timers priests at

[02:06]

at San Francisco St. Center. And is he the same generation as yours? Is Ed Brown the same generation as you and Reb, or is he? You're practicing, yeah? Yeah, okay. And so not always so is the title that he gave to the book. It's also a section of the book, and it's also the name of a fascicle. And so I'm going to be reading from the fascicle. But there are a few things that Ed Brown or his ordination name, I'm going to use his first name, is Juson. Juson. He rarely uses it, but I will use it this time. It's mentioned in the book. And in the introduction, he selects a few things that he said he heard over and over again from Suzuki Roshi, which are also mentioned in the fascicle.

[03:19]

But I want to start out by saying a few things about that. And one of the things that he says is that Suzuki Roshi always emphasized that the teaching is just for you. And of course, that's not an egotistical you, that's an intimate you. So we all partake from the teaching in a very personal and intimate way. He also used to say, big mind is always with you and on your side. So that was one, one teaching. The other one is, says, he quotes Sukhiroshi, he says, if I tell you something, you will stick to it and limit your understanding.

[04:20]

So he says, keep finding out. Don't stick to what you already know. Not that knowing is not important, it's just that we don't stick to it. That's beginner's mind. And he says, keep finding out, don't stick to what you already know, and you will have joyful and grateful practice. That's the spirit of practice, joyful and grateful. So we seek for wisdom or wisdom, we say wisdom seeks wisdom. Yet we also have to let go of wisdom. To have true wisdom, we have to let go of wisdom. We don't stick to wisdom, we don't practice memorization.

[05:26]

of the sutras for example but we study the sutras even though you don't hear so much about them in Zen although Zen teachings always reference the Mahayana sutras but they're not studied that much but they're always referenced in Zen stories and we don't have the practice of memorization like the old monks that would memorize the Long Sutras, so we let go of any particular idea that we may have. Even Zen mind, beginner's mind, it's also conceivable that one could stick to that as well. So if we let go of wisdom, then wisdom is right there. without having any particular idea, then the right understanding will emerge in the situation for you on your side.

[06:38]

Even though on your side doesn't always feel so good. Because wisdom sometimes is a correction. So we have to be able to hear that correction to your understanding in the situation. Another one that he says, Jusin says that a common phrase of Suzuki Roshi was to say that the most important thing is to be able to enjoy your life without being fooled by things. Because we're always being fooled by our fantasies and our perceptions and the beliefs that we develop out of our fantasies and perceptions. And they fool us and interfere. And then we are surprised when things don't seem to work out the way that we thought they were going to.

[07:46]

So we're fooled by fantasies, thinking, and perception, but it's not like you can eliminate them. It's just you're not fooled by them. So we practice not to be fooled by them rather than to, you can't eliminate perception. And yet perception is always shot through with our own nature. Okay, so in the in the fascicle, not always so, I'm going to read from it. In Buddhist scripture, general Buddhist scripture, we don't know exactly where a scholar would have to put which scriptures being referenced.

[08:57]

But since this is not strictly scholarship, we can cite without citing. In Buddhist scripture, there's a famous passage that explains that water is not just water. For human beings, water is water, but for celestial beings, it is a jewel. For fish, it is their home. And for people in hell or for hungry ghosts, it is blood, or maybe fire. If they want to drink it, water changes into fire. and they cannot drink it. And the same water looks very different to various beings. Most people think that water is water is the right understanding.

[09:59]

And that it should not be a home or a jewel, blood or fire. Water should be water. But Dogen Senji says, even though you say water is water, it is not quite right. When we practice Zazen, we may think, this is the right practice and we will attain something correct and perfect. So this idea of practicing and attaining something correct and perfect. But if you ask Dogen Senji, he may say, not quite right. this point is a good koan for you to study. So it's like the incomplete teaching is the teaching that sticks to good things, perfection, being correct, being right, right practice, so on and so forth, doing things right.

[11:16]

But that itself can become a hindrance. So the complete teaching goes beyond this question of correct or incorrect, right or wrong, perfect or imperfect. When we say water is water, we understand things materially. We say that water is H2O. So the chemical compounds, if you start analyzing the components of matter, that's not what he means by water is water. Yes, you can hear?

[12:18]

No, there's some interference. I'm not sure if anybody else is hearing. Yeah. Yeah, just like that. Yes, now? Is that better? Still there. Still there. Uh-huh. I don't hear it. Do you hear it? There we go. What? Yeah. So it's not a, water is water, it's not a material condition. It's also not something spiritual. So it's beyond material and spiritual, because spiritual would be this correct and perfect dharma, sort of like the dharma rain or the water of the gospel, you know, that satiates the thirst of the spirit or of the body-mind.

[13:35]

So that would be spiritual water. Water is above, water is below, as the Genesis said. But he said water is beyond that, beyond a spiritual metaphor of water or beyond the material description of water. So what is that? That's a good question. What's your name? What's my name? Emo. Emo, suchness. He says, we say that water is H2O, but under some conditions H2O may be ice or mist, or it may be vapor or a human body. It is only under some circumstances. For convenience, we may tentatively say that water is water.

[14:37]

But we should appreciate water in its true sense. Water is more than just water. So this is a not always so. What is water? Something material, not always so. Something spiritual, not always so. Not wrong, but not quite right. That's Suzuki Roshi following Dogen. By the way, you know, this book suffered a water accident. So this book is water, or water is this book. I had it on the countertop in the kitchen and then I had a little water accident, so it got to the book. When we just sit in meditation, we include everything.

[15:44]

There's nothing else, nothing but you. That is Shikantaza. We become completely ourselves. We have everything and we are fully satisfied. We're just sitting. comfortably at ease without distractions, without not being distracted by all the worries and stories, you know, that are going through our head. Sometimes they seem interesting, sometimes kind of boring, really repetitious. So that's kind of a nice release to just breathe, There's nothing to attain, so we have a sense of gratitude or joyful mind. I think I understand why you practice Zazen.

[16:47]

Most of you are seeking something. You're the seekers, spiritual seekers. You seek what is true and real because you have heard so many things that you cannot believe in. So now he's talking to the 60s generations, you know, who were disappointed with society and with their parents. So he says, you're not even seeking for what is beautiful because you have found that something which looks beautiful may not actually be beautiful, right? This is superficial beauty, sort of the critique of the 60s. It is just the surface of something or just an ornament. The surface appearance, so here's the question of not always so, how it relates to the question of perception and reality. You're also aware of how people can be hypocritical.

[17:55]

I remember, you know, I was so mad at my parents, you know, when I was a teenager. Well, maybe 16, 17, no, 18 maybe. And I was, no, I was 18 or 19. I wasn't living at home, but we came to, for lunch, with my girlfriend to my parents' home. And she all of a sudden started feeling really bad and needed to lie down. And so I just had her lie down in my parents' bed. And it was a big bed, so I just lied on that side, you know? And she fell asleep, and then I lied on the other side with clothes and everything, you know? And I fell asleep. And then this lady who was working there that day She came in and opened the door, and she, ah, scandal, scandal, you know. So she told my parents, and my parents came and told me, boy, you can't be doing sexual things in our home, in our bed, with your girlfriend.

[19:12]

So that was like, it's not even worth arguing about. I tried to explain myself, but they wouldn't have it. They didn't understand it was just that she was tired. So they were kind of deceived by appearances. So I let it at that. But that's sort of the hypocrisy, hypocrisy, sexual hypocrisy that I think the 60s, 70s generation was questioning. Many people who appear to be virtuous don't convey real gratitude or joyful mind, so you don't trust them. So he's kind of, he has a good understanding of his students and of the cultural differences, despite coming, being, you know, not an old man, he's a Roshi, He's a mature man, a traditional man from a traditional society.

[20:17]

Yet he seems to have such a good understanding of some of the conflicts of young people in a modern society. You don't know whom to trust or what teaching to believe in believe in religion, you don't believe in religion, you believe in science, you don't believe in science, you believe in Judaism or Christianity or you believe in Buddhism, you know, that's a conflict with the parents too because, you know, you were raised Jewish or you were raised Christian and now you're abandoning the faith. And this came to haunt me when my mother died a year ago. My mother was always very supportive. She had an interest in Buddhism and Buddhist art, but my sister, who's two years older than me, and her brother-in-law, they at first tried to, they wouldn't let me be part of the last rites.

[21:34]

because, you know, we're Chilean, 90% Catholic society, but it's sort of like people who are religious, but they're not religious, they're secular. But if they're gonna have any religion, they're gonna have it the old time religion, the old fashioned way, sort of like, you know, Israelis when they come to America, even though they were really anti, they hated the Hasidim and the religious in Israel, when they come to America, then the only religion, Judaism, that they want is the Orthodox kind. Sort of like, something like that. And they chose an Episcopalian priest. And they didn't know what was going on. Because, you know, the Episcopalians are the most like the Catholic Church, but without some nice things that the Catholic Church could get rid of.

[22:44]

But a lot of the ritual is similar. But, you know, if you go to the website of the Episcopalian Church, they say, oh, we're an open-minded Christianity, We accept everybody and Jews and Buddhists and Muslims and, you know, sort of like that. So the priest didn't understand, you know. They finally, the way my mother manipulated the situation so that my sister, who was responsible for her legally, would allow me in the last rites. was she started speaking in French, and only her and I know French. So she wouldn't speak another language, you know. And so they had to bring me in as a translator.

[23:47]

And then the Episcopalian priest offered me the host, you know, and said, so it was a question not whether he was going to reject me or I was going to reject him, you know, is it like you have no interest in the host? Do you, as a sign of a rejection of Christianity, you won't take Holy Communion? Or is it that you're not good enough as a Catholic to deserve being given the Communion? So it was a kind of ambiguity. It was very interesting. But it turned out okay. The last rite ceremony went very nice. But what? I did take the host. Yeah, yeah, I did take it. But he says, you don't know whom to trust or what teaching to believe, so you come here looking for something.

[24:59]

I cannot give you what you are seeking because I myself don't believe in any particular thing. So that's just a very radical, reassuring teaching. Of course, it's not that he doesn't believe in anything, because Dogen also says that right belief is one with Buddha, but he's talking about something else. So obviously, Suzuki Roshi gave us a lot of teaching, but his attitude is he doesn't believe in any particular thing. So is this a kind of letting go of wisdom, not holding on? to wisdom and then when you do that then wisdom is right there. But it's a fresh wisdom springing from the source as opposed to some rehashed information.

[26:05]

I don't say that water is water or that water is a jewel or a house, fire or blood. As Dogen Senji said, water is more than that. We may want to stick to righteousness, beauty, truth, or virtue, but it's not wise to seek for something like that. So it's not wise to seek for righteousness. And that sounds like counter the prophetic tradition in Judaism where, you know, you're supposed to seek for righteousness. But the problem is that the near enemy of seeking for righteousness and justice is that it ends up with a near enemy which is self-righteousness and egotistical altruism. He says, there's something more.

[27:10]

So this again, there's something more. He keeps saying, there's something more. Water is more. There's always, what is this? More. Not always so because always more. Then he says, I have noticed that you like to travel. Today, Alaska. The next day, India. The next day, Tibet. You're seeking for something, whether it is a fire or a jewel or something else. When you realize it is not always so, you cannot believe in those things anymore. At some point, you just drop the search. As Picasso said, I don't seek, I find. And we don't go around looking, you know, for the Dharma in the dusty realms of other lands or something like that, like going to India, you know, or Japan.

[28:35]

So we find it right here. It's right under her nose. I remember Sojin Roshi telling me early in practice, you know, you see right there where you are right now. That's it. That's the, I can't quote him exactly and I don't want to distort what he said, but something like, well, you think you're gonna find your happiness in practice, you know, and then, well, I don't know about practice, there's problems, and then you go seeking something else or some other teaching or marriage or, you know, whatever it may be.

[29:42]

But then you realize that where you were already, that was the place already. So there's nowhere else to go to find this. To seek for a great teaching like Buddhism is to seek for something good. Whatever you find, you will be like a sightseer. Even though you don't travel in your car, spiritually, you're sightseeing. Oh, what a beautiful teaching. This is a really true teaching. People often say, you know, I always get worried when people come and say, oh man, I found home, you know, this is, this is it for me, you know, this is, you know, like, total certainty.

[30:50]

And I say, oh no. Bye bye. Because eventually, you know, they're going to get disappointed and leave. You know, you speak that way. The disappointment is around the corner. Even though it's true, too. Yeah. So he says, Oh, what a beautiful teaching. This is a really true teaching. To be a sightseeing, sightseer is one of the dangers of Zen practice. Be careful. To be captivated by the teaching doesn't help at all. Don't be fooled by things. Here's the, don't be fooled by things. Whether it's something beautiful or something that looks true, this is just playing games. You should just, you should trust Buddha, trust the Dharma, and trust the Sangha in its true sense.

[31:56]

So real freedom is to not feel limited when wearing this Zen robe, this troublesome formal robe. Similarly, in our busy life, we should wear this civilization without being bothered by it. So it's like wearing the civilization, you're wearing the culture on your clothing. You should wear it without ignoring it, without being caught by it. Without going anywhere, without escaping it, we can find composure in this busy life. So actually, the robes feel, he says, oh, these troublesome formal robe, it's so formal, you know, I think we all have, and the robe represents tradition. an unbroken tradition, even though we use the Japanese kimonos underneath the yokesa.

[33:14]

And kimonos are robes, but they're not exactly robes. They're used for different things in Japan, too. So we wonder, you know, what is this robe? Or do we like robes, we don't like robes, want to wear them, don't want to wear them. And so that's the troublesome formal robe. And yet, once you wear it and let go of some of the, you know, You know, the thing you can idealize the robe, you think, you know, like idealizing a civilization or a culture, or you can devalue it. But in fact, when you wear it, it's neither of those things. You just feel free. Even though it's cumbersome, you have all these long sleeves that could get in the way with so many different things, but somehow they don't.

[34:28]

Dogen Senji says to be like a boatman. Although he's carried by the boat, he's also handling the boat. That is how we live in this world. Even though you understand how to live in this world like a boatman, that does not mean you're able to do it. It is very difficult. So it's very difficult to be a boatman. Usually, surfing is easier to see that metaphor, you know, of being carried by the wave. I don't surf, but it's a nice metaphor of how we practice with the mind waves in Zazen. It's like thinking is happening, right? So the wave is coming. And at the same time, we ride the wave, but also let it recede.

[35:42]

So the wave comes and then it goes away. And so riding the wave, right at that point where it's like leading and following. We're following the wave and yet we're also leading it. We're following our thinking and we're leading our thinking. So that's the metaphor of the boatman. Are we running out of time, Raz? It's 11, wow. These are short, you know, they're only like three pages, but... Yes, there's a little, kind of the little that holds the great is like him, you know, it's a little guy who holds the great. So yes, opening for questions, comments or anything you would like to say. So you have that example, which is a pretty powerful transformative example.

[37:25]

What do you think about that? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, well, I'm from Chile, right? So I came all the way from the south to the north. I mean, one is you're looking for the practice, right? But once you find it, then you have the practice. So then do you keep looking for other practices, you know, or for something else afterwards? That seems there's two different meanings, you know. I remember that there was a, And Santiago is actually 30 degrees south. It's the capital of Chile in the middle of the country. It's a long, narrow country. It's 30 degrees south of the equator. And San Francisco is 30 degrees north of the equator. So the geography is very similar, actually.

[38:29]

I always, so it's this question of your, what is your original land, you know? No, what's the other metaphors? It's like going back to your native land and quietly getting settled or something like that. But which one is your native land? Is it the land of your birth? It's like, which one is your real name? Your birth name or your ordination name? But somehow I had to come here to find something that was already there. But over there, I hadn't realized it. So I had to come here to realize what's here was there. Yes. Right. So it's like appearance and reality, right?

[39:36]

It appears that it's not there. So he has to go there. to bring it back here, but it was already there, so. Sergeant, would you like to say something about that? I think he's saying you can't add something by traveling. You can't add, you know, he used to talk about putting various things in your basket, adding stuff to your basket, which is up there, thinking that this is the way.

[40:37]

But when you let go of all that information, you just dig a deep hole into your presence. Instead of trying to get something, just do one thing thoroughly. And you can't add something. You can't add, no matter how much you fill your basket, you can't add something. You add bobble to the tree, the tree is the tree. And the tree has its own root. So, you can decorate the tree, but the tree is the tree, no matter. I think you've already said that, you're very eloquent. Just stay with that.

[41:48]

Do it for reality instead of trying to create something. The more you try to put stuff in your basket, the less good. Right, but wisdom is also, I mean, you could say the koans are wisdom or the sutras are wisdom, they're not information, but you also have to let go of the koans and the sutras. He didn't hold on to it, right? Wisdom as well, yes. So it's not just letting go of This one reminds me of the, what is the nature of the student? What is the being of the student? And so what is the being of the seeker is kind of the question that's come up and we wander around, we travel seeking, but when we have that moment where we actually become the seeker, we actually

[42:54]

by the becoming the seeker in the moment and receiving something in the moment. Yes, well just two quick response to that. One is yes, so the other can't give us our being, we want, we're looking for or being cannot be given by the other, it only emerges from within, although in relationship to another, it's like the teacher-student relationship as well. What was the other point about seeking? Oh, when you travel, like for example, in ordinary travel, Because you live in your area and there's a kind of routine that you have. And the routine kind of becomes routinary. And when you travel, you're kind of temporarily, you break that routine.

[44:09]

So the world feels new and fresh. But once you've been there for some time, it's the same thing, it becomes routinary again. And then you have to go somewhere else to recover the freshness, right? So instead, we focus just on the routine, how to turn our routinary life into a life of practice. And so whatever we're doing has that fresh new feeling. Okay, Margaret. Right, but our self is not this small self, right?

[45:23]

So it's the big self that includes everybody and everything, right? So when Dogen studies with his teacher, his teacher helps him awaken to something that is in him. That's the key point, because if his being didn't resonate with the teacher's being, then that awakening wouldn't happen. So, it has to, the ground, it's the ground of being of each one of us from where we wake up and from where we live. Is that? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. What was that Pichuan? What? That's Ben Brown's other name. Yeah. His other name. Did we know his other name? It's the last name is spelled K. A. I. N. E. I. Juson.

[46:49]

Gary. The other thing I remember about Dogen going to China, which really affected me a lot, was his meeting the head cook. And the head cook, his head sweating, and him working over these mushrooms. And Dogen saying to him, why do you work like this? You're an old monk. enlightens Dogen, so his travel was, I don't know, was it necessary? He might not have, he wasn't going to experience that in Japan.

[47:52]

Right, because he had this idea, you know, he was an aristocrat, Dogen was an aristocrat, right, so he had this idea of there being a hierarchy So that, you know, study and sitting is of one category and working in the kitchen, you know, or tilling the ground or something is of a different category. And so maybe somebody who's young should do this, but somebody who's old shouldn't be doing that. And so the monk kind of broke his dualistic way of looking at the activities that we do, which is something that we all go through. We all go through that same realization in practice when we have to kind of rethink of how we think of kitchen work, for example, as something different than Zazen practice, when it isn't.

[48:56]

So that's something that, that was the way that Dogen got that. But then it's been transmitted to us and then we all go through that same process of discovery. Yes? I think we shouldn't think that when he says traveling, it sounds like he's saying traveling is a mistake. That's not what he's saying. It's not like traveling is a mistake. We have to travel until we find out. Yes. Yes. And sometimes we travel by not going anywhere. Just sitting in your seat, you travel. Right. You don't know where you are, but you are traveling. Sorry. Traveling through space.

[49:58]

I don't know if we have time for this, I can talk to you later. It's about a practice of irritation. Paying attention to it and it shifts, not always so. When I believe, when I'm irritated with, it's like, oh, okay. Shift, learn something, a discovery, it's already there. Well, it's good to realize under what conditions do we get cranky, you know, and not to age into a crankiness, habitual crankiness according to certain conditions. So not to be conditioned that way. So we know it's like one of the ways I get cranky when I'm tired. It's been a long day, and then everything bothers me. Any little resistance that the seed or the radio or anything puts up, then I don't have any more flexibility, and then you kind of break.

[51:08]

Time for your nap? Time for my nap, yes. No, but now I anticipate, I know that I'm going to get cranky when I'm tired. So do I want to be angry at my car or at other people, you know, or, you know, actually at things in my surrounding that actually helped me quite a bit, you know, but I just lose sight of that and just get cranky. So I anticipate that. So one of the things I'm practicing now is the practicing with a cranky, irritable mind. Cranky Buddha, yes. Okay, Ross.

[51:56]

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