When is a little bit more classic Buddhism. Thank you. We already missed the best part, you know, that was right at the beginning. When is the, you know, when of thus have I heard, thus have I heard. the Buddha on such and such an occasion, that's a when. And this is when, so this is like when, it's a moment, any particular moment. Any particular moment is a when. So this is often, sometimes translated as when, and in this case it's translated as as. But it's any particular moment when you study carefully and observe carefully, you will see that all things are Buddha Dharma. Dogen is extremely schooled in Buddhism, classical Buddhism, the sutras, Zen.

[01:15]

If Dogen says something, it comes out of hundreds of years of Buddhism. All things are Buddha Dharma, and if you study Buddhism, you find out what Dharma is. Dharma technically is, you know, these elements that you can identify, and a dharmic element, you know, is impermanent. Something that's impermanent means, and this kind of impermanence is the instant it appears, it disappears, and so then classically Buddhist study. Did that actually exist? Or is it already gone? And we have this kind of study. Does it, did it actually exist or is it already gone? So this particular moment, there's, it's all, all things are Buddha Dharma. They're all disappearing as instantly as they are appearing, based on conditions, cause and conditions. And dharmas are not things.

[02:22]

Things here, things are said to be Buddha dharmas. So things we can understand as things as we understand things to be things. Things actually are there. They arise and then they're there for a time and then they disappear. Dharmas do not do that. Dharmas are not things. And the difference here is that a thing has some existing nature. Okay, so a table, what is a table? Well, tables have certain attributes that then make them tables. It's got some legs, it has a top, we can put things on it, it's a certain height, and the floor is down there and the ceiling is up there, and you can define, you know, what things are. And then the floor has certain characteristics. What's a floor? Well, it has these characteristics. But we still haven't said what a floor is or what a ceiling is or what a table is. We just say, well, it has these characteristics. And there must be some thing there that has the characteristics.

[03:24]

Otherwise, how could there be characteristics without a thing? This is the way our minds work, and whether we're in modern America or ancient times, we start to attribute, attribute, we take the attributes and we attribute there being a thing that has the attributes. We make that up. If seeing is occurring, we say, I'm seeing. There must be an eye that's doing the seeing, just as there's a table that has legs and there's a tablecloth on it. And you can see the cloth covers the table. You can see claws are thin and they have certain characteristics. And you see how the fabric moves? That's fabric. And we say that we like to think that there's a thing there. And what Buddhists have pointed out and we come to in the second sentence here especially, but it's already in the first sentence that this is Dharma. Things, nobody's ever found a thing. Things are very mysterious. The tree has, the trees grow up and they have trunks.

[04:26]

Trees have trunks. But what is a tree? And then as soon as you say what is a tree, people start talking about the attributes. And finally, trees, trees, there's something about trees that is presence and it's something that is... So what's a tree without its attributes? So Buddhists have never found anything. Any of these things that we, you know, things have attributes. Dharmas are the attributes and there's no thing there. So blue, it's just blue, there's no thing that's blue, it's blue. That's a dharma. And concentration, that's just concentration. It's not an attribute of a thing. It is the thing. So dharmas are said to be their own mark. They're not separate. They don't have a substance and an attribute. They are the attribute and there's no substance.

[05:28]

So dharmas are already without thing. All things are buddha-dharma. So things already are in, you know, we're shifting a notion of things, whether they're things out in the world, things which are psychological, things which are experiential. All of these things are dharma. They're appearing and disappearing instantaneously. And there's no thing there that's doing that. And we talk more about this as we go on. You know, to carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion, that myriad things come forth and experience themselves as awakening, and so on. So, Dogen says, when all these things, when we see, you could also say then, when we see that all things are Dharma, are Buddha Dharma, we see there's delusion and realization, practice, birth and death, and there are Buddhas and sentient beings.

[06:31]

So this is kind of interesting because then Dogen's expression of ultimate reality is that there is delusion and realization, practice, birth and death in Buddhas and sentient beings. So this is very interesting. You know, if you study Buddhism, You know, because so much of Buddhism understands, like, well, when you really understand, you see that nothing is anything, and it all is one, and one is many, and... But, you know, we don't have these things anymore to deal with, to relate with. We just have... It all is kind of wooshy-gooshy, and, you know, works, and is harmonious, and, woo, isn't that nice, and we can relax now, and... So, maybe, maybe not. So then, the second sentence here, and you know, Dogen's going to go on here and talk about what is delusion, what is realization, what is practice, what is birth and death, what are Buddhas and sentient beings.

[07:40]

I'm going to tell you a little bit about this too, because we're not going through all of this together. As myriad things are without an abiding self. This is another way of saying that things are Buddha Dharma. When you look closely at things, you find that there's no thing there. This doesn't matter what you suppose the thing to be. But when you see that things are without anybody in self, then what is it that you're calling delusion? What is it that you would call realization? You can't find anything to... And this is, you know, what they say like in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. Buddha asked Subuddhi, Subuddhi, would you please explain to the assembled bodhisattvas the perfection of wisdom and how to stand in the perfection of wisdom and how to go forth deeper into the perfection of wisdom. And Subuddhi says, great, I'd love to, Lord Buddha, but you know, when I look really closely, I can't find anything to call a bodhisattva, nor can I find a thing to apply the word perfection of wisdom to.

[08:50]

So, when someone hears this and does not cower or tremble, is not frightened or dismayed, that's a bodhisattva, and that's the perfection of wisdom. And then Sariputra says, is that something that is? And Subuddhi says, excuse me, but this is a little beyond is and is not, so let's not go there, okay? And was that a very good question you asked? Because they like to, in these sutras, make fun of Shariputra. And Shariputra says, no, I guess it wasn't. It's a little bit like in the Vimalakirti Sutra when Shariputra, somebody's looking around for a chair, and Vimalakirti says, did you come here for the Dharma or a chair? Yeah. he reads his mind so so when and this abiding self you know this you can look at it this in various ways you know but you know does the book is there actually a book here or do we do is it just the attributes and experientially can you ever experience the thing

[10:00]

What you experience is what it looks like, what it feels like. I can open it up. It, it. So what is it? Well, it's a book. Duh. But what is it? And that's why Zen people say, well, what is it? You know, and that's a, you know, your Zen question, you know, what is it? Well, it has these characteristics and you can see it, feel it. So there must be an it there that has all those characteristics and it's a book. But it's also, you know, your consciousness. It only exists in your seeing, you know, and you see and you smell and you taste and you touch and you hold and you can do various things and then you say, well, that's a book. It's a book. So is there actually a thing here? And Buddhists have all kinds of ways of talking about this, but is there an actually existing thing? And Dogen's going to talk later about And this is true for any of us.

[11:04]

If something changes, is it the same thing or not? This is basic Buddhism, right? If something changes, is it still the same thing or is it a different thing? So we like to think, well, I change over the years, but I'm still me. Well, if it's different, it's different. If you change, it's not the same. But so partly we're talking about thinking very, looking very closely, very accurately, very carefully, and for practical everyday purposes, this is a book, you're you, I'm me, but we can't find any of those things, finally. If you talk about a nose, what's a nose? Well, everybody knows that this is a nose. This is why Zen teachers come along sometimes and twist it, because where does the nose end? There, there, there, there. So what is it?

[12:08]

And for it to be a nose, it has to be functioning like a nose. So if it's not connected to the rest of the face, it's not going to be a nose. So the rest of the face has to be there for the nose to be a nose. If the rest of the face is there, what makes the nose a nose is that the face is there. And if the face is there, the rest of the body has to be there. And pretty soon the whole world has to be there because you've got to be eating in order for the body to be alive and for the nose to be functioning as a nose. So the nose is, you know, it's just like we're just pointing at that, but it's actually part of everything. So we say, well, there's the nose. That's a nose. We all know what noses are. But actually, we forget that a nose means everything is here. and we have complete bodies and we breathe oxygen and we eat food and there's the whole planet and there's the sun shining and there's water and there's gasoline and we have tractors out there getting the food and bringing it over the road and all the rest of that. So nobody is, you know, if you look carefully, you can't find the thing. All the things are without an abiding self. Abiding means that's what it is.

[13:11]

It doesn't change. But if it's changing, how can it be that's what it is? If it's changing, now it's something else. It's not that same abiding self. So none of us have abiding self. Nothing out there has abiding self. So what delusion? There's no delusion, no enlightenment, no realization. All right? No, no, no, no, no, no. And then we study this also. We read the Heart Sutra. Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form is exactly emptiness. Emptiness is exactly form. And then Dogen says, leaping clear of many in one, there's birth and death. The Buddha way is basically leaping clear of many in one. And so oftentimes people say this many-in-one is about discrimination, non-discrimination.

[14:15]

So to discriminate, we say there's a nose, there's eyes, there's ears, there's a body, there's the world, there's these things, as though they actually exist, and as though there's actually a thing that corresponds to the name we use. So we point out all these things, that's to discriminate, and to not discriminate is to say everything is one. And Dogen says when you leap clear of that, from his point of view, well then there is birth and death, there is delusion and enlightenment, there is sentient beings and Buddhas. And then this wonderful last sentence, in attachment blossoms fall, in aversion weeds spread. So blossoms fall, weeds spread. whether you like it or not. I want to read you a piece here. I want to read you a couple pieces from Time of Spring. This was translations by Tom Cleary from the Soto Zen tradition.

[15:16]

I think it's out of print now, but My copy was at home, so I, because I occasionally stay there, you know, I slipped into the abbot's cabin and borrowed the copy from the abbot's library. But this is one of my favorite teachings here. The Zen master Shurto, who in Japanese is known as Sekito and is the second after the sixth ancestor, said, our teaching has been handed down by the ancient Buddhas. We do not speak of meditation or spiritual progress, only the arrival at the knowledge and vision of Buddhahood." And this is the part that for me very much echoes the Genjo Koan and perhaps will help you see that, you know, Dogen comes out of this long history of people talking about these things. And this is a very famous expression in Soto Zen, mind itself is Buddha.

[16:19]

mind itself is Buddha. And Suzuki Rishi said, mind is Buddha, itself things are Buddha, is activity is Buddha, and Buddha is Buddha. And this is famous expression in Soto Zen. And then, you know, once people start running around saying, well, mind itself is Buddha, then, you know, Basso and other Zen teachers would say, no, not mind, not Buddha. And you know, because we don't want anybody using language as though they know what they're talking about, without knowing what they're talking about. It's seeing the way things are. Buddhahood, here it says seeing Buddhahood. So, this is another way of saying, seeing the way things are. We're not going to have stepladder practice, first I will understand this, then I will understand this. No, just practice seeing the way things are.

[17:22]

How is it? So, when things are Buddhadharma, then there's birth and death, there's practice, Buddha's ascension, beings, enlightenment and delusion. So, that's when we see it, you know, accurately, closely, intimately. A mind itself is Buddha. Mind, Buddha, sentient beings, enlightenment, affliction are all different names for the same thing. You should know that your own mind, your own mind's aware essence is neither finite nor eternal, by nature neither defiled nor pure, it is still incomplete. The same in ordinary people and saints." So this isn't about, you know, looking good, being calm and not upset, being concentrated and not distracted, being still rather than noisy.

[18:32]

This is about seeing closely, seeing that mind itself is Buddha. When all things are Buddhadharma, there's delusion and realization. And this delusion and realization is different names all for one reality. But we actually live in this world of different things. Dogen says it's very important to live in this world of different things. And while understanding that the different things are not truly and absolutely fundamentally different things. But let's live in this world where tentatively we give tentative designations, tentative words to things so that we can talk about things and relate to things as though they actually exist. But remembering that they don't actually exist, let's work with these different things. Let's relate to these different things. So we're not doing this practice, in this case then you see, to improve. to get better, to fix ourselves so that we're more likable, so that we're more spiritual, so that we're more admirable, so we get more recognition.

[19:41]

I certainly thought this when I started. You know, after a year or two, I'll get enlightened and then you won't and I can tell you where it's at. And you will bow. It hasn't quite worked out like that, but oh well. I want to tell you one other thing about this and then I'm going to invite you to see what's on your minds. So again, we're trying to see reality. I mean, our aim or, you know, Buddhism, and this is Buddhism, it's not just Zen. Seeing things, and it's often called seeing things the way they are. And then Dogen sometimes, and the Sekito, Shurto says, seeing and having a vision or, you know, knowledge of Buddhahood.

[20:45]

Dogen says, when you see things are Buddha Dharma, you see there are these, we can talk about delusion and realization, even though these things don't finally fundamentally absolutely exist as those things. So at a Sashin one time, Suzuki Roshi didn't talk very much in Zazen. But one time, but he used to occasionally talk in Sashin especially. I was there a few times when he talked in Zazen, which wasn't Sashin, but mostly Sashin. And one time he said, and you know, we were struggling with Sashin, you know, to sit still. And he said, don't move. Just die. Nothing will help you now because you have no more moments.

[21:52]

So much for Step Letters Zen, huh? Maybe I could find out something that will make this easier. Nothing will help you now because you have no more moments. Not even enlightenment will help you now because it's your last moment. So don't move. Don't move and be true to yourself, he said, and express yourself fully. This be true to yourself and express yourself fully is is going to have delusion and realization, practice, birth and death, Buddhas and sentient beings, all in that one moment. It's not like because you practice well, the delusion goes away.

[23:00]

Things clear up. It's so much easier now. So this is a kind of, again, mistaken kind of idea. Let's be clear about this. When all things are Buddhadharma, there's realization and delusion. There's practice, there's birth and death. This is also, I love a sonnet by Rilke about food, and he says, the round apple, smooth banana, melon, gooseberry, peach, how all this affluence speaks, death. and life in your mouth. When you taste things carefully, you don't just taste the blessing, the bounty of nature. There's death in that. And every moment, everything is there, and we sort of think, I will just get the side of that that I want, and I won't have to relate to the other side. And actually, we're practicing to be able to experience everything without being disturbed.

[24:02]

Because this is reality. Delusion and enlightenment, practice, birth and death. Delusion and realization are not coming and going. Practice is not coming and going. Birth is not coming and going. Death is not coming and going. Each moment, all of this is there. And so Suzuki Rishi said, sit with it, deal with it. Stop thinking you're going to get somewhere or get better. And when you stop thinking that, it is a kind of getting somewhere because you actually can be here. And you stop thinking, I could get to someplace that's better than here. And this is, you know, often very challenging for us, extremely challenging sometimes. But whenever we sit or breathe or, you know, and there's a way in which, you know, to just, you breathe it into your heart.

[25:07]

Finally, you just say, I will. Finally, you just say, I will sit with this. I will live with this. I will be with this. And I thought I couldn't stand it, but I will. I will sit with it. I will breathe with it. I will be with it. This is very similar also to, you know, Tibetan Rinpoche, and I forget which one it is. He said, you Americans want to get someplace, don't you? You might kind of study like, well, where are you? You know, like at the shopping mall, they have these maps and it says, you are here. Before you try to get someplace, you might kind of check out, where are you? So we're at this place, you see, where... So it's a kind of mistaken idea to think, I will get rid of delusion and just have the realization. I will get rid of death and just have birth. I will get rid of sentient being.

[26:12]

I will become a Buddha. So we're actually living in various realities and we're using the words differently and You know, we're in this swim with everything. Is that okay? So, interest, comments, questions, observations? Yes. If I'm enlightened and everything is dharma, what is it that I'm doing when I'm not present or when I'm not here? I think that's called delusion. That's delusion and then you notice that and that's realization about delusion. And, you know, Buddhists don't necessarily know that they're Buddhists.

[27:14]

That's probably one of those times when you're a Buddha that doesn't realize it. And, you know, Buddhists can have, and by the way, you know, Buddhists can have runny noses. But this is one of those things, like, what is it that makes a Buddha a Buddha? And then, is there a thing actually there? So partly the difference here between a Buddha and an enlightened person and an unenlightened person is the way we talk to that person. So, you know, we sometimes come around looking for people. So sometimes, as a Zen student, you might understand that the Zen police are after you. If it's the Zen police, then they come in and say, all right, what's going on here? Why aren't you at Zazen? That's the Zen police.

[28:15]

But if it's your... And they knock down your door. And they say, come with me. You're coming to the Zendo. No excuses. No excuses. So then you know that they were not approaching a Buddha, and they did not see you as the Buddha that you are. But, you know, back in the sutras, then they come and they tap on your door and they say, venerable sir, I've come to inquire about your health and welfare. How is the venerable master today? You say, oh, I'm sick. I drank too much last night or whatever. There was that lecture just went on and on and on. I couldn't get out of bed today. Then, you know, you start to feel like, oh, maybe I am. Maybe I could be respected. Maybe, huh. Were they talking to me? That miserable person? Huh. This is confusing. Which am I?

[29:17]

So, what something is, is partly, you know, how we see it, how we understand it, how we talk, you know, how we relate to it. What makes something what it is? It's not like these things are separate from, you know, you yourself. So how do you see yourself, you know? Oh, so then, you know, there's a Zen master who used to say to himself, zuigen. And then he'd say, yes? And then he'd say, don't be confused. Or he'd say, zuigen, yes? Wake up. Okay. So other people have had this kind of issue, you know. Are you here? Yes. Don't be fooled. OK. Yes. Yes.

[30:23]

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Where are these pictures? Oh, Sanford Beginners. Okay, yeah, to check it out sometime. The host and host, I see. Yeah. Yeah, harmonious. Yeah. And then they're both, each is respecting the other and, you know, because they're seeing, you know, anyway, right? But that being respectful or kind is coming from inside and it's not because I have to be kind. I have to be respectful. And at some point when you're telling yourself what you have to be in order to be a good Buddhist, then that's not quite what we're talking about as far as the host.

[31:30]

Then you're busy being the guest because you're telling yourself how you need to behave. The guest doesn't know what's going on. The guest doesn't know what's going on. The host knows. Yes, hosts can be kind of sympathetic to the guest. Yeah. OK. Yes, Mary. I'm just wondering . Really? I mean, after my Dharma talk here and even after everything I've had to say, huh? Okay, well, anyway, I could understand how you could be confused. I've been confused for years. I'm just wondering what is casting off body and mind? Oh, that's later in the sutra. We haven't gotten there yet. That's... What are you going to talk about?

[32:34]

Wednesday? Oh, yeah, probably the day that you're not here. Well, you know, I think about this as something to do with, you know, if we just take this in the context of the first paragraph, it's seen that there's no such thing as an abiding body, an abiding mind that continues from moment to moment. or an abiding enlightenment. And so dropping something away that you thought you needed to maintain. Usually we have the idea, I need to, you know, my body hurts. My body hurts. And we think that and then we believe there actually is a body that is hurting. I need to do something about it. And then we're living in the, this is also known as delusion. The basic delusion is thinking there, believing there are things. and that you need to do something about the things. But if everything's appearing and disappearing, what things are there that you need to do something about?

[33:37]

But anyway, the dropping away Just for the sake of our conversation is that there's no abiding mind like I need to fix my mind so that it doesn't do this and it does this and doesn't do that and I I stopped I've let go of that and the body that You know when you when you sit and when you study things carefully you you know you often you know you can't find You can't find your body You just can't find it. You can find sensation. So you study carefully and you have sensation, and then you can start picturing that there must be a body having that sensation. But largely, a good deal of the time, there's no... We don't experience our body, we don't experience our digestion, all kinds of things we don't experience. But we still believe there is a body. And while we're preserving the body, preserving the mind, and then making the body that we're preserving the way we want it to be, making the mind that we've been preserving the way we want it to be, according to our preferences, then this is going to be suffering because it can't be done to anywhere near the degree that we would like to do it.

[35:01]

And so then we can, you know, when we have, and you know, this is the kind of thing that, you know, sometimes in Zen this is understood, you do it like once and for all, and it's this big dramatic thing. But on the other hand, you know, every day we have experiences of letting go of something that we, you know, we're pretty much attached to and believing in as a reality. So we can also understand this as fairly prosaic and simple and fairly every day that we let go of our body, we let go of our mind. Ava? I don't need to. I'm still a little bit confused about, actually, so the concepts are described with words that are not always complete in my mind.

[36:09]

So, for instance, when you were talking about as is when, then suddenly this statement made more sense to me. So when you say delusion is enlightenment. Did I say that? No, he said there's delusion and there's enlightenment. And there is enlightenment. Okay. What I did was I quoted Surtow who said, mind, Buddha, sentient beings, enlightenment and delusion are different names for the same thing. Your own aware essence. Mind itself is Buddha. But, you know, and if we say mind itself is Buddha, and there's no Buddha. It's useful to put the and there. So, we will eventually get to the part that delusion is enlightenment, but we're not there today. Because I was kind of getting a glimmer there, and I thought, well, perhaps in delusion, in our perception of our delusion, then there's a certain enlightenment.

[37:29]

Exactly. When we see the delusion, that's enlightenment. Dogen says that here. To be a Buddha is to have realization about your delusion. To see your delusion clearly as delusion. That's awakening. What you were saying last night was kind of like a lot of times we build up an expectation of what realization looks like. And something that you're saying is that time is not aware of it. We're constantly realizing that we're expecting realization to look like a cow when it really looks like a dog. Well, we're expecting realization to blow us away, you know. Oh, well, there you go. Yeah, dogs not so much, huh? Okay, yeah, some people really love dogs. What Brendan is mentioning, last night I read a passage from Only a Buddha and a Buddha, and Dogen says, when you attain realization, you do not think, aha, realization, just as I expected.

[38:35]

Even if you think so, realization invariably differs from your expectation. And part of what I was saying last night is realization in this case is the same word for actualizing, manifesting. So we're actually just talking about, you know, if you follow your breath closely, You can't have, it's not something that you can say how it's going to happen ahead of time and that's the way it happens. Our lives, you know, moment after moment things happen that it's not about how we, you know, can we control it. Can we fix it? Can we improve it? So that we consistently have things arising in our vicinity in a way that reflects well on me and my skill and savvy and my competence as a Buddhist practitioner. So whether we call it realization or my breath, my body, you know, people, the world,

[39:43]

you know, moment after moment things are appearing and I can't have, and I can't, you know, and language is not going to be able to have, or the picture I've had in my mind is, you know, it's sort of like When you're eating, boy, food is good when you're eating. It's awfully good. And I think the food when you're eating is way better than any memory you might have about some meal that might have been better. That's realization. That's actualization. That's manifestation. Things are appearing in ways that is beyond your expectation and you can't have conceived it. So this is the way each moment is happening. When all things are Buddhadharma, things are appearing, and that's the way all things are. And when we experience it that way, we notice how things appear is beyond my expectation. It's not the way I conceived it.

[40:45]

It's not happening according to my plan. I'm not even going to try to improve on it. Yes? It strikes me that the term awareness of delusion might be a little bit problematic. Okay. By the way, excuse me for a moment, it is 4.30, in case some of you need to be going to work at 4.30. Okay. Because, like, it called to mind some sort of, like... like almost inflectable or something like, oh, I am deluded now or something. Whereas I feel like maybe what you're getting at is more like, oh, this water is really good right now.

[41:49]

Like more of just like being one with your experience Or like being like, I'm really sad. Or sadness, sadness. Instead of like, I don't care. I wonder what your response is to all this. So this has something to do with languaging. And this is where language often falls short and why we sometimes have poetry. And in Buddhism, if you're meditating... you know, or saying things clearly, you try to have, you know, more dharmic language. So you don't go, you don't, you try to leave, you know, like if you practice vipassana and you start noting things, you do something more like what you're saying. You don't go, I am aware of, you say, as sadness is arising, then you can note sadness. If

[42:51]

And if seeing arises, you note seeing. And you come back to your breath and then you note. And you can note thinking. You can note an emotion. You note thinking, judging. You can note planning, remembering. And then you just make that simple note. And that simple note is like having this, you know, delusion, realization. It's a little note. But, you know, markers like this help us. to perceive more clearly, more carefully. If we don't have markers, then pretty soon we don't notice differences. And part of what we're doing, if I may say so, and certainly from my point of view, part of what we're doing is to see if we can notice differences, and which differences make a difference, and how we act on those differences. And partly we're studying the way the Buddhist study happens is not that we're trying to change ourselves by some act of will.

[44:02]

It's our understanding that then we change. It's how we see clearly, oh, now I see I was trying to gain approval when I was cooking. And I was seeking that with the mistaken idea that that approval would help me like myself better. But I can never get enough approval. I guess that didn't work. Why don't I do something else instead? Well, maybe I could just offer food and see what happens. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't. So by our seeing, So yes, you're right, and I'm adding a little bit to the end of it. You try to come up with a... You aim to have a simple expression. And again, without the markers, and then you start to catalog things. And mostly we learn about our life through trial and error.

[45:09]

People say, well, when do I know it's the right person to be in relationship with like I could tell you it was I could give you some kind of you know list of 10 things that you could analyze or basically you find out by being in some bad relationships and then you say excuse me but you know thank you and and So we dive into things, we have the capacity to dive into things and we have the capacity to reflect on things. Some of us dive into way too many things, some of us reflect on way too many things, and to have wisdom, which is really committing yourself to what you dive into, you're going to need to have dived into too many things and stood on the diving board for way too long. And over the course of your life, you don't just learn these things when you're 15 or 18 or even 35.

[46:16]

You learn over the course of a life something about who you are and what are the markers for. So, for instance, you know, when you're in your 20s, usually you have the idea and you meet somebody and then you say to them, you make me so happy. So I want to be with you. Well, what about when they stop doing that? You're not making me happy the way you used to. Do you not love me anymore? Or am I just not controlling myself and becoming happy around you so that I can have the belief that you're doing that for me or to me or I actually am lovable? Anyway, you make up all kinds of things. Eventually, you come around to, why don't I find a good person to have problems with? And, you know, a good person to have problems with is different than somebody who makes you happy.

[47:24]

So this is something that, and so you learn something about things over time, but then you start to, you have to notice the markers. What's the marker for what? And that's this, exactly what you're talking about, sad, happy, and then what are the markers here? What's going on? What's happening? And then how do I know something? How do I know when it's my heart? How do I know when it's my mind? What is my mind doing? What is my heart saying? So usually the mind is giving out directives. Do this, don't do that. And our heart is feeling things and feeling connection. And our heart can feel... And then our heart sometimes knows what to move towards. But then our mind can go yes or no or I don't think so or... you know, bad idea or, you know, okay. But this is all, you know, ongoing kind of study. What are the markers for what's going on in our life and what we're going to act on and what we're not going to act on?

[48:31]

And we learn a lot of that by trial and error. So, excuse me, I added that to what you were bringing up. Something else? Yes. culture, and people have been living a certain way for a long time, and they follow the trial and error, and they start to figure out a nice system. Is that something that we can take off the shelf and say, hey, this is a good idea? Well, that's kind of what Zen is, you know, so you can participate in it up to a point. But, of course, you know, we encourage people to check it out for yourself and see if you can. And usually the understanding here is, Dogen says at some point here, to study the Buddha way is to study the self. So if you take something off the shelf, you want to live with it for a while and see if it's becoming you or helping you become you, helping you to know you. And then you start to have confidence in it because it's not some way or system that's telling you to be somebody else or how you need to be somebody else or how you need to realize who you are.

[49:39]

Yeah, it can work. Yeah, culture, that's what culture is. But, you know, it's sort of like, and culture is like recipe books, our culture, you know. And as I've often said, I don't know what happened in our culture that there was no, where did bread baking go? And somehow when my book came out in 1970, this is culture that wasn't being passed on. We don't need to pass this on. We'll eat white bread. Manufactured. We don't, you know. And some people say, oh, this, I'll get off, you know. But some people say that's public education. You know, originally it was industrials in New England who needed a mobile workforce that had nothing better to do than accept their crummy jobs. So they thought, let's get them away from their parents early on so they can't learn anything in their families. And then they'll have to rely on our jobs. Because otherwise, if they were home, they could learn to farm or be a carpenter or a plumber or, you know,

[50:44]

something useful and then they wouldn't need our jobs. Well, you know, there's so many sides to these things, but obviously, so now it's sort of like, in a lot of ways, you need an education to, you know, be in the world, or at least it looks like that. But some of us somehow slip through the cracks and, you know, have done all right even though we're dropouts. I've dropped out of most things throughout my life. But here I am coming back to Tassajara yet again. How are we doing? Something else? Time? So we can just stop now? Okay.

[51:46]

So can we do a chant to stop? I like the chant ho. Ho. And ho is the Buddhist word for dharma. Ho. And it's also, you know, the three words that Santa Claus says one after another. Yes. And it's also Native American. Ho. Which is like peace or... And then it's used in black ghettos, and it's used in many cultures to have many meanings. So I like to think of the word hoe as being a kind of all-inclusive word. And it's used hoe for farming. But anyway, I like to use this because, and I actually, sometimes people say, well, that's very nice, Ed, but it's not Zen. And they say, well, anyway, people say various things about me. And they say it's very nice, but it's not Zen.

[52:50]

But, you know, I did learn this from a Zen teacher, Soen Roshi. And Soen Roshi was not, you know, out of the box. Or maybe he was out of the box, but... You know, sometimes people say, let's think out of the box, and then other people say, but you haven't even looked in the box. Why don't you look in there and see what's there? Anyway, all these things. But anyway, Son Roshi used to have people chant ho. So I've learned it actually from Maureen Stewart, who was a disciple of Son Roshi's. And we chant ho for a minute or so. So if you run out of breath, you inhale and join back into the sound and you let the sound resonate through your body. Chanting practice is considered to be a kind of cleansing practice. So the sound is washing through you and you're washing that sound through you rather than your usual thoughts. preoccupations so we let the sound wash through and then we're using the hoe to also to share our blessed prayers and blessings with the world so we're turning over the merit and blessings of our practice and sharing it with all beings so i don't have a bell here but we'll just start and so we'll share our merits and blessings and sit in our prayers in each other's hearts with the sound

[54:11]

Aum.

[54:13]

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