It's a big bunch of books. That's a big bunch of books. That's a big... Can you hear? Better? Good. Okay. Well, it's good to see everybody here tonight. every once in a while, I think it's important to refresh our understanding of the Heart Sutra, which is our theme song, which we chant over and over again. And at some point, it's easy to lose the meaning because the words become just so ordinary.

[01:06]

Actually, you know, the meaning, when you come down to it, the meaning is in the way we chant the sutra. If you really know how to chant the you will understand meaning of the Heart Sutra, but there's also various other ways to understand the Heart Sutra and that's what we will be looking at. It's said that there are two parts.

[02:24]

One is the sutra itself, which is the head of the dragon. And the other part is how we live out the sutra in our daily life. It's called the body of the dragon. So we have to connect the head and the body together. in order for the meaning of the sutra to be real, realized. So our practice is actually to understand and live out the meaning of the Heart Sutra, which is for us the meaning of reality. So, before I start to talk, I want to talk about, give you a little bibliography to work with.

[03:33]

One, this little book called The Heart of Understanding by Thich Nhat Hanh is a little vignette, a little overview of the Heart Sutra, which will help you to get bring the Heart Sutra into view. There are a number of books, but there's a new book translated by Red Pine called The Heart Sutra, which you can buy. There are several Tibetan commentaries and The book that, well, this book by, old book, by Edward Kanze on the Heart Sutra commentary is long out of print, I think, so you won't have that, but the book that I had printed for you is, this is my old copy of The Tiger's Cave,

[04:49]

which was published around 1965, and really talks about the practice of Prajnaparamita in our daily life. So this is the attitude that I want to bring forth in our study, is how we actually practice the Heart Sutra, understanding form is emptiness, emptiness is form, and what is prajna, and what is samadhi, and how this applies to our daily life. There are many approaches to the Heart Sutra. Most of them are intellectual and scholarly, I don't want to get, although there's a scholarly side and an intellectual side and we should understand what the Sutra is talking about from that point of view, what I want us to concentrate on in this practice period and in the class, although I will have to talk about the meaning of the Sutra,

[06:10]

I want us to talk about and discuss how we see no-self in our daily activities, how we actually experience the experience of no-self, selflessness, and how prajna arises in our life. otherwise the Sutra is just a kind of intellectual study. So I'm going to begin with an intellectual study, so that we can get a grasp of the Sutra. I'll probably go over material I have to go over this material, so please, if you already know about this, please be patient.

[07:23]

Prajnaparamita Sutras, of which the Heart Sutra is one fascicle, has 600 volumes. They're not, you know, big. Some of them are lengthy and some of them are very short. There's the Prajnaparamita in one letter. Sanskrit letter A. There's the Prajnaparamita of your own breath, one breath at a time. There's the Prajnaparamita in 25,000 lines, and there's the Prajnaparamita in 8,000 lines, and so forth. Probably appeared around the first century one way or the other and Nagarjuna, the ancestor of Nagarjuna, seems to be responsible for this Prajnaparamita literature.

[08:29]

They say that the legend is that Nagarjuna went down to the bottom of the ocean and got the sutra from the Nagas who were protecting it for the right person to come along and receive it. However, that may be, of course I believe that literally, and so this Prajnaparamita is called Shakyamuni Buddha, his sermons, his first sermon was called the turning of the wheel of the Dharma, which introduced the present-day Dharma into the world. This Prajnaparamita literature, Nagarjuna's presentation is called the

[09:32]

So this is why we bow to Nagarjuna in our lineage, why we uphold Nagarjuna in our lineage, because he introduced the second turning of the wheel called the Mahayana into Buddhadharma. So there are two sutras, the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra, which are somewhat complementary. They present the Prajnaparamita from two different points of view and they're both fairly short. And of course they both talk about Prajna. But the Heart Sutra seems to be the one that is most universally chanted in the Buddhist world, in the Mahayana world.

[10:36]

The Heart Sutra is chanted by, you know, almost every Mahayana practitioner. and many approaches to how it's commented upon. So when you read one commentary, it has a point of view. When you read another commentary, it has a point of view. And so we should be careful to consider each commentary and you may have a favorite, I may have a favorite, but each one adds something, some view, some way of looking at the Heart Sutra. So this Heart Sutra is not a sutra, it's not an independent sutra.

[11:41]

Heart Sutra is a piece of the, it's the epitome one reason why we can say it's the heart sutra, Hridaya, the heart of the Prajnaparamita. In its succinctness it expresses the whole meaning of the Mahayana and it's like, I it's compressed into this small space and then when you soak it, it opens up and flavors the whole pot. So we have to open it up to see what exactly it's talking about. And part of what it's talking about, one of the main reasons for in some way it's criticizing, I don't know if criticizing is a good word, it's expressing the difference between the Mahayana and the so-called, the larger vehicle and the smaller vehicle, or the larger vehicle, the wider vehicle and the narrow vehicle.

[13:08]

The narrow vehicle being the dualistic understanding before the Prajnaparamita understanding. There's the Pali literature and then there's the Sanskrit literature in Buddhism, in Indian Buddhism. The Pali literature is It's exemplified by the 18 schools of Buddhism before the first century, which were trying to really figure out what is Buddha's meaning, what is the real meaning of Buddha's understanding. And most of the schools were

[14:12]

what Nagarjuna, if it was truly him, introduced, what the Mahayana literature introduced was the non-duality of all things. Practice based on non-duality rather than practice based on duality. And this is what the Heart Sutra is. examining and putting forth. So it's a kind of criticism, but it's a kindly criticism. So because this is not a separate sutra, It's an epitome of the Prajnaparamita literature. Someone back there somewhere gave it a context.

[15:21]

The context is like a little play, a drama. So when we read the sutra, it says, O Shariputra, it just starts out like that, right? Well, who's saying this? Who's saying O Shariputra? What does that mean? Well, in order to give it some context of meaning, context of meaning, This little drama was, it was put into a little drama, so it's called the larger heart sutra. So I'm going to read the larger, it's not very much larger, but it just gives it some context. For instance, thus have I heard, when a sutra opens up, any sutra, it usually opens up with, thus have I heard. And the person who is saying, thus have I heard, is purported to be Ananda, who was Buddha's cousin, and who is noted for his great memory.

[16:34]

He apparently remembered everything the Buddha ever said, word for word. Apparently he had a photographic memory. In those days, actually, because there wasn't a lot of writing, people did remember things. And they also got them wrong. But people trained their memories. And the people who could remember whole texts, and to this day that still goes on in India. It's a training device. So thus have I heard at one time. This is what gives it legitimacy as a sutra. The Lord, meaning Shakyamuni Buddha, dwelled at Rajagriha on the vulture peak, which is where he usually often gave sermons, together with a large number of both monks and bodhisattvas.

[17:42]

At that time, the Lord, after he had taught the discourse on Dharma called Deep Splendor, he entered into concentration. At that time also, the Holy Lord Avalokita, the Bodhisattva, the Great Being, coursed in the course of the deep perfection of wisdom. He looked down from on high, and he saw the five skandhas, and he surveyed them as empty in their own being. So here, I think this is not the one I had. I'll have to, this is a little different. I'll have to do it from memory. So, Shariputra, course was one of Buddha's 16 arhats.

[18:45]

There were 16 arhats who were the followers of Buddha, who had these qualities that personified his disciples. Each one had a different quality, and Shariputra was the arhat whose quality was investigation or analytical understanding and we say that the Abhidhamma, the development of the Abhidhamma came through Shariputra. The Abhidhamma is the which forms the basis of analysis of the five skandhas into their constituent parts and if you investigate for what's underneath everything you see that there's nothing.

[19:51]

So this is the Arhat's way of understanding that if you investigated the elements of a human being deeply enough you would see that like a plantain tree you keep peeling off piece after piece after piece and then you find there's nothing in the center and this is the early understanding of Buddhism, how we come to no-self, the understanding of no-self. You peel away everything until you find there's no-self, really, there's just the five skandhas, five rivers, streams. And this, of course, is accepted in all schools of Buddhism, except that

[21:00]

it easily leads to a dualistic understanding of no-self. So, in the longer version, Shariputra is asking Buddha, Buddha, he said, what is this Prajnaparamita? I've heard about this Prajnaparamita, what is that about? And in this assembly, Avalokiteshvara is also there. Avalokiteshvara is this wonderful Bodhisattva of compassion, who personifies compassion. And so Buddha asks Avalokiteshvara to explain it to Shariputra. Sariputra, I mean Avalokiteshvara, please explain the Prajnaparamita to Sariputra.

[22:07]

You can do it for me, because you understand it as well as I do. So, that's the longer version. And then, Sariputra, I mean Avalokiteshvara, Thereupon, so then Avalokiteshvara says, this translation is not exactly correct. It's correct, but it's not what I want. So Avalokiteshvara, when he was practicing the Prajnaparamita, deeply perceived that all the five skandhas in their own being are empty and was saved from all suffering.

[23:18]

And then he says, oh, Shariputra. So here he addresses Shariputra. So the first part is, this is where Avalokiteshvara is doing his thing. And now he's imparting it to Shariputra. So he says, oh, Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, and emptiness does not differ from form. that which is form is emptiness and that which is emptiness form. The same is true of feelings, the same is true of perceptions, the same is true of impulses, and the same is true of consciousness. They're all empty. So the rest is explanation. Avalokiteshvara And that's what this sutra basically is about. So we can't be Shariputra listening to Avalokiteshvara explain this understanding.

[24:30]

So it's interesting that, you know, this is called the Wisdom Sutra. Prajna, wisdom sutra. But Avalokiteshvara is the one that's explaining it. And Avalokiteshvara is the Bodhisattva of compassion, whereas Manjushri is the Bodhisattva of wisdom. So it's strange, like why wouldn't he ask Manjushri to explain the sutra, to explain the Prajnaparamita instead of Avalokiteshvara? So Avalokiteshvara, there are various commentaries on what people think about this, but the way it seems to me is that Avalokiteshvara being the Bodhisattva of compassion is compassionately

[25:39]

Shariputra. The expression of wisdom is compassion. So this is Buddha's compassionate action. And his compassionate action expresses the wisdom. Avalokiteshvara, Avalokita, This is Sanskrit, in India they say Avalokita, Avalokiteshvara, in China it's Kuan Yin, in Japan it's Kannon. It's the Bodhisattva meaning of perceiving, looking down or looking up. Kanjizai is another expression, Kanjizai, a little variant of that, one is hearing and the other is seeing.

[26:47]

Avalokiteshvara hears the cries of the world and responds to the cries of the world, responds to sound. Kanjizai responds to looking So one is hearing and the other seems to be seeing, but seeing and hearing, as Master Tozan says, only when you can hear with your eyes and see with your ears will you get it. So this is Avalokitesvara, he can hear with his eyes and see with his ears. So the title of this sutra is Maha Prajna Paramita Hrdaya Sutra. Maha means great, or big, or great in this case.

[27:51]

And Prajna is wisdom. There are various levels of wisdom. Of course, this is the highest level of wisdom, which is inexplicable. but there are many attempts to explain it. And I don't want to attempt to explain it at the moment, at least until I get through with the title. So paramita has various meanings. Paramita means perfection. That's one way. When we talk about the six paramitas or the ten paramitas, the ten or six prajna paramitas, this is wisdom. Six paramitas or the six wisdoms of practice.

[28:56]

But it also means gone or going beyond, like in the mantra. mantra, gate gate pargate parasamgate bodhi svaha, gone or going beyond or crossing to the other shore. So that's another name, another meaning of paramita. So, you know, this heart sutra is the only sutra that anyone knows about that So it's interesting in that way, but we'll talk about that later. And then hrdaya means heart, the essence, essence of mind, actually, the essence of mind. So Huineng, or Daikan Eino, the Sixth Ancestor, talks about, in the Heart and his Platform Sutra, he talks about essence of mind.

[30:08]

You should always, you should be aware of your essence of mind at all times. So this is actually a practice of the Heart Sutra. Hrdaya means the heart of things, essence of mind. Heart and mind actually are kind of interchangeable. Mind in Mahayana Buddhism includes everything, not just our brain, but there's a difference between our individual mind and big mind. But our individual mind is how big mind expresses itself. So it's valuable, but it also is inhibiting. When small mind is not open enough, then it cuts off big mind. So practice is actually how we open our mind so that our small mind doesn't cut off our big mind.

[31:18]

And this is actually what the whole thing is about. That's called renunciation. when small mind is not inhibiting big mind, or stopping, or standing in the doorway. And in sutra is, of course, the words that are sewn together. sutured together. There's some feeling that sutra, it comes from the Sanskrit suture, to sew together. That may be, that's what a lot of people think, but that's a nice way to think about a sutra or a piece of literature. So, The Buddha was in this Samadhi called Deep Splendor.

[32:30]

And I remember when we were chanting the Heart Sutra in the 70s, That was kind of a deep splendor was kind of in our mind. And there was a matchbook cover came out. It said, deep splendor is nothing special. Because Suzuki Roshi is always talking about nothing special. Don't think of it as anything special. Don't think of anything as anything special. Don't think of enlightenment as something special. And so nothing special was kind of his mantra. So when this little matchbook came out with deep splendor, there's nothing special. It was very cute. Time? Already? We just started. We'll take a break for two minutes, which means no talking.

[33:32]

So, do you have any questions about anything that I've been talking about so far? No. Yes? the central, as I said, the center of the heart chakra. Oh, I see what you're saying, like the plantain tree, the no center.

[34:46]

Yeah. You know, the citra centers around form as emptiness and emptiness as form, right? So when you take everything away you find that there's nothing at the center, right? Emptiness. That's one way of looking at emptiness. But another way of looking at emptiness is that emptiness is not the lack of something. If we want to see into the heart of things, we say, well, be still, right?

[35:49]

And when the water is tranquil, you can see all the way down to the bottom. When there are waves, then the bottom is obscured, right? But within each wave, is the whole ocean. So one way of looking at the bottom is to be very still. The other way to see into the center of things is through each phenomenal thing. This is the difference between the so-called Hinayana way of looking at things and the Mahayana way of looking at emptiness. you don't separate form from emptiness in order to see emptiness. You have to, because since form is emptiness, in order to study emptiness, we have to study form.

[37:02]

Because form itself is emptiness. This is the mind-wrenching kind of But, it's not so hard to understand. You know, we say, if you use the analogy of a glass of water, you know, you say, well now the glass is full, we put water in it, we say now it's full, and then we drink the water and we say now it's empty. But actually, it's always empty and it's always full. When you get down to the bottom of emptiness, you find that it includes everything. So, where's the gateway to emptiness? The gateway to emptiness is everywhere. And the Mumonkan means empty gate. So, empty gate means, where's the gate?

[38:08]

The gate is wherever you enter. In the Srimad-Gama Sutra there is a long story about where the Bodhisattvas are asked to describe how they entered into essence of mind. And each one tells a story of how they did that through some phenomenal way. Like there's the story of the Bodhisattvas in the bath. If you ever go to Tassajara and you go to the bathhouse, when you bow at the entrance of the bathhouse, there's this picture of the Bodhisattvas in the bath. which I'm sure comes from this story, which is also a koan in the booklet record, of the bodhisattvas entering the bath, entering the water, and they all got enlightened through entering water.

[39:23]

So, you know, whatever you can enter that situation and realize the emptiness of all phenomena, but it doesn't mean that you take away the phenomena. Without taking away the phenomena, you realize the emptiness as the form. For instance, This looks like a book, but we just call it a book. It's not a book, but we call it a book. And this book has a form, but it's totally empty. It's just dependent on everything else. Dependent on everything that's not the book to be a book. So it's totally empty.

[40:24]

But it also exists. It exists, but it only exists through our understanding. For an ant, this is not a book. It's only a book for me because I understand what a book is, I think. I think, therefore, I understand what a book is. But I just call it a book because it has some meaning for my mind. So everything has some that, you know, we name things and we order our world through mental construction. But all the forms are really empty because they don't stand by themselves. We construct them to conform to our idea. This whole world of ours is a construction to conform to our ideas.

[41:30]

So ideas are also empty because they're dependent on something. So to get to the center, the center is everywhere, there's no place that the center is not. If we try to get to some center, you know, pulling away all of the stuff, we don't get we have to find the center right where we are. That's why, that's zazen. Zazen is just sit down in the center of the universe. But actually, we can walk in the center of the universe. We're doing that all the time. We're always at the center of the universe. It's no specific place, but it's everywhere. It's no specific place, but there's no place where it isn't. That's my understanding. Yeah, I don't want to talk about the Diamond Sutra.

[42:38]

Yeah, they're not different, they're just two different ways of talking about the same thing. They're just two approaches to the same thing, and so that's all of Buddhist literature, various approaches to the same thing, but there are certain specific questions that each one is addressing. So, Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva.

[43:39]

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, although we say that Avalokiteshvara is the epitome of compassion, Avalokiteshvara as well, because he balances wisdom and compassion, the perfect balance of wisdom and compassion. If there's wisdom without compassion, it's not true wisdom. And if there's compassion without wisdom, it's not true compassion. So this is our ideal. Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara is our ideal, the balance of wisdom and compassion. Wisdom as being the source and compassion being the expression. So we have the word prajna, wisdom.

[44:48]

And we think of this as the great wisdom heart sutra, the heart of prajna. But the heart of prajna, when you get to the heart of prajna, you have compassion. That's what you find. Because wisdom is the essence, and compassion is the movement. Compassion is the actual acting out of something. So you don't act out wisdom, maybe, but you act out compassion. So one is the essence, and the other is the function. this kind of language, this kind of understanding, essence and function are always, the interplay of essence and function is always being presented. I think that's important to keep in mind.

[45:51]

This is the meaning of most koans, the essence and the function. And the question usually contains, is about the essence, and the response is usually about the function. So when the monk comes and asks Master Rinzai a question about the essence, Rinzai takes his stick and beats him with it. That's essence and function. That's what it's about. It's very simple. Rinzai expresses it very simply, or he turns over the table, you know. Yeah? Isn't he just saying there's no essence in it? No what? No essence. Who said that? Isn't he saying that? No, nobody said that. Who said that?

[46:53]

The guy with the stick. The what did? The guy with the stick. He didn't say there's no essence. He said this is it. Bam. I say there's no essence. Well, I'm sorry for you. Yeah, you're right, there's no essence. No essence means everything is essence. I'm worried a little about Manjushri. You have to speak up for me. I'm worried a little about Manjushri. Oh, don't worry about him. He'll take care of himself. Well, of course. It's just that one, you know, you carry this too far. Don't carry it too far.

[48:07]

We're just talking about these figures who embody certain qualities, right? It doesn't mean they don't have the other quality, right? I mean, if Manjushri was the embodiment of wisdom, it's obvious that he would also express it through compassion. Otherwise, he wouldn't be the embodiment of wisdom. These are figures that express certain qualities, but it doesn't mean they don't have all the qualities. We hope they do, otherwise Buddhism wouldn't have lasted so long. So practicing deeply Prajnaparamita So he's doing the practice of Prajnaparamita. So what is the practice of Prajnaparamita?

[49:13]

How do we practice that? How does he practice that? Sometimes it's called coursing in the deep Prajnaparamita, different ways of translating, a lot of different translations and more translations are coming out which make your head spin, but this is fairly close to what, this is good enough. Coursing deeply, Prajnaparamita saw that all the five skandhas in their own being are empty and was saved from all suffering. This is how he was saved from suffering. I was talking to somebody today, well I'll talk about the five skandhas, forms, There are different ways of talking about five skandhas, and everybody, the first forms and feelings everybody agrees on, and everybody agrees on, no? Yeah, well, feelings are, a sensation is a feeling. So that's not, you can, but those are interchangeable terms.

[50:18]

So forms, sensations, which are feelings, and consciousness. But the other two are so varied in the way they're expressed, so I'm not going to express them all in all those ways, but forms, the way we express it, forms, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, which are karmic formations, and consciousness. those are the five streams. Heaps is a kind of literal explanation, but it's not right to say little pieces of stuff You know, in a big heap. I don't consider our body and mind as a heap, you know, five heaps. They're like five streams, five pillars, five interactive streams. which epitomize or cover the form and the mentals.

[51:39]

There's one skanda of form, which covers all forms, and the other four are mentals. So these are general categories. general categories to which all the specific categories can be related. You have to take your hand away from your mouth. Probably not. All the categories in Buddhism are related in some way to the five skandhas, because the five skandhas are what we have to talk about, right? So yes, the four foundations of mindfulness are, yes, feelings and consciousness, yeah, they're related, sure.

[52:49]

They're practices related to the five skandhas. Helen? I actually hadn't thought about this before, but when you think about these five skandhas, traditionally they're seen as heaps, or you could call them streams, right? So form is really distinct. Yeah, form is distinct. You have form, which is a physicality, physical manifestation. That's right. It's the box. Aren't they, isn't there some sequence of them, in a sense? Sequence? So you have, I'm just thinking, you have form on one side and you have consciousness on the other side, sort of like a bracket. But feelings, perceptions, formations, could he birth in? Well, it's all explained, as the sutra unfolds, that will all be explained.

[53:53]

Yes, of course, each one has its characteristics. Each skanda has its characteristics and is related to all the other skandas. They're all working together as an organism. That's what we call our organism. Each one of us is the organism which is a matrix of those five streams interacting together, continuously. I guess my question is, is it really a matrix of anything other than the two interacting? Two? Form and context. Yeah, well, those are bigger categories. Okay, that's what I was wondering. I mean we can categorize it any way we want, and then it's broken down into dharmas. So we have form, which is the container, and then we have the mentals, which are inside.

[55:17]

and the form is the dividing line between the inside and outside, but you can also say there is no inside and outside, but for practical purposes we say inside and outside. So the mentals are all interacting with each other, and this is what we call myself. So when we get further down, we start talking about the eye, ear, nose, and so forth, then we're talking about how consciousness occurs, and how perception occurs, and how feeling occurs, and so forth. It's all explained. I mean, it's all expressed and has to be explained. So that's why this sutra is so condensed because each sentence contains a whole study of Buddhism.

[56:21]

It points to a whole area of Buddhism, Buddhist study. But it just mentions all these and mentions all of the constituents of Buddhist study and understanding in this little Heart Sutra. bullion cube, and so we're soaking it and letting it reveal itself in all the parts, and each one, like when we come to the skanda of mental formations, that's like the 52 So that's a whole area of study in itself, right? I made the mistake of going there one time when I was doing this class many years ago, but I won't do that again because it just takes you away from what you're doing.

[57:25]

But I will touch on it. So he perceived that all the five skandhas in their own being are empty and was saved from suffering. How was he saved from suffering? He was saved from suffering by not falling into the extremes of existence and non-existence. This is a very important aspect of Mahayana understanding, a non-dual understanding, the extremes of existence and non-existence. So the old schools had often had this understanding of the extremes of existing and non-existing, annihilation and eternalism.

[58:32]

The two extremes of eternalism and It's called the middle way. No birth, no death. No existence, no non-existence. This is the title of Suzuki Roshi's book, Not Always So. That's what he means by not always so. It's a little funny language. Not necessarily so, I'd probably have been more accurate, but that's what he said, not always so. It's not existence and non-existence, which is it? Because we say, this is my existence, but a minute ago, where'd that go? A minute ago, I could say, this is my existence, but it's gone. Now this is my existence, now that's gone.

[59:34]

Where did it go? Is it existence or is it non-existence? Is it birth or is it death? So this kind of brings out this kind of understanding. But we fall into one side or the other. We're always falling into one side or the other. Very hard to stay in the middle. The practice of Prajnaparamita is how you stay in the middle. How you stay in the middle, in the center, without falling into one side or the other. And yet, both sides exist. Gives you a headache. Those are the extremes. Eternalism and annihilation.

[60:42]

Eternalism means something lasts forever. Annihilation means when something is gone that there's no follow-up. Well, by grasping and attachment. Attachment, grasping, clinging, this is either to one side or the other. This is the cause of suffering. not being able to preserve what we want to preserve and having to live with what we don't want to live with.

[61:44]

These are the two sides. One is clinging to life, the other is clinging to suffering or clinging to annihilation. So how we actually move with things as things. So we say form, rupa. Of course, it is this form, this body form. That's what we're really thinking about all the time as myself. But actually, when you let go of the boundaries, everything is myself. This is how we have to understand. So we treat everything as ourself. We relate to everything as ourself. That's how you let go of self, centeredness.

[62:49]

And then you see how everything is going and you're going in the same way that everything else is going. When we see how everything else is going, then we're not so worried about how we're going because everything, I'm dependent, my self is dependent on everything around me, totally dependent on everything around me. This self does not exist by itself, just doesn't exist by itself, it's just made up of all the things that are not what I call myself. So when we realize the emptiness, that's the emptiness, the emptiness is the truth. If things were not empty, then there would be no space for change. Everything would exist in some form that doesn't change. Because there's change, emptiness is the space in which, that's one form of emptiness.

[63:56]

One form of emptiness is the space in which everything can change. And nothing remains the same. So, we do prefer certain forms to other forms, and that's fine, but we also have to realize that all forms are subject to dissolution, and there's nothing we can do about we try to preserve certain things, but there's really nothing we can do about it, because nothing is real. There is a reality to existence, but fundamentally nothing is real, except the change.

[65:00]

Change is the most real thing that we can grasp. And so what's all this arising and ceasing? It's like the big ocean of existence and we are the waves. And so if we are the waves, that means that we are also the ocean. This is the big analogy. Since we are the waves, we are also the ocean. So there's really nothing to worry about. The wave is not annihilated because the wave is the ocean. It feels independent, but it's dependent. The wave is dependent on the wind and the conditions and all the conditions that affect it, the ocean. And the shape of the waves are dependent on the kind of weather.

[66:08]

When the weather is tranquil, the ocean is tranquil. When the weather is heavy, the ocean is moving around. So New York City is a big turbulent ocean of humanity. Some places, very calm, tranquil. When you're a city person and you're driving down Highway 1, you want to get to Santa Cruz. And all these locals who live in the quieter part of the city, the quieter part of the country, they're driving their trucks 50 miles an hour down the highway. They're not worried about getting to Santa Cruz. Very calm, different kind of life. So the waves all over the world are different, but we want all the waves to be like us, which is too bad.

[67:17]

We're squashing all the, putting a blanket over the varieties, great variety of the world. Anyway, that's a whole other, putting our American blanket over the world, stifling all these other cultures. So, so, O Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness. that which is emptiness form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness. This is an old translation. We don't use the word impulses anymore. We use the word formations, mental formations.

[68:20]

Impulses is okay, you know, but, and there is, impulses is accurate, but it's not as descriptive as, not as inclusive as mental formations. So when he says the same is true of feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness, these are the five skandhas, right? So it means that which is form is emptiness, that which is feelings is emptiness. is emptiness, that which is perceptions is emptiness, that which is mental formations is emptiness, and that which is consciousness is emptiness. So simply talking about each one of the skandhas as empty. But we usually think of form and emptiness. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. That's the form, Yula. But feelings is emptiness, and emptiness is feelings.

[69:25]

Perceptions are emptiness and emptiness is perceptions. Mental formations is emptiness and emptiness is mental formations. Consciousness is emptiness and emptiness is consciousness. So, instead of dividing form and emptiness, form and emptiness are equated with each other. So we demonstrate that all the time. We say, this is form and this is emptiness. And then we go like this. So if we think about that, you know, when you bow, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. So you enter into reality when you bow without necessarily thinking about it or being aware of that.

[70:28]

But if you realize that, then everything you do has that same quality. seems like form is independence, or form is substantial self. Substantial, yeah. Not independent, but substantial. Form is substantial self, and form is matter and body. Those seem like two different processes. Are they? Are you talking about the general

[71:32]

realm of forms and then the body, it's two different things. They're not two different things though, they're just two different manifestations of the same thing, particles or however you want to break it down, but as a container. In other words, it's not a thought form, it's an embodiment form. So we're not so interested in the world of forms. What we're interested in in this study is the world of the human being. So that's kind of where the emphasis is on the form of the human being, not so much on the form of material matter. You know, it's not science in that sense, not physical science, it's simply recognizing mostly, but it's also important that this body is not isolated from all the other forms. This body is one aspect of all forms.

[72:40]

As we get further down, talking about dharmas, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. That's a key phrase, because everything has a mark. mark means characteristic, a specific characteristic, the mark of water is wetness, the mark of fire is heat, the mark of earth is solidity, and the mark of air is ether, ethereal, or something like that. But the mark, everything, true mark is emptiness. The true characteristic of everything is emptiness. So everything is leveled. The common denominator is zero. And then there's existence, which are the plants or the flowers that come out of emptiness.

[73:48]

The flowers of emptiness, actually, are existence. We're all flowers of emptiness. But emptiness is our most distinguished mark, the true mark. And that emptiness connects everything. So when we say, who are you and who am I? Well, you're Malcolm and I'm Mel, right? But actually, we're both emptiness. That's our true mark. The other mark is also true, but it's ephemeral. It's time to go? Okay, we do want to stop on time for your best interest.

[74:43]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ