before my talk. Before my talk. And that is often in our interactions, working together, we see somebody doing something that we think could be done in a better way or a different way or a way that we don't like or something. And our temptation is to say something, like, don't do it like that, do it like this. Not thinking that it will have any particular repercussion, but most people resent or resist being told something by their peers. It's just our nature. So if you have that kind of problem, you should talk to the leader of your work group.

[01:12]

Like if you're in the kitchen, you should talk to the tenzo about this. Or if you're in the shop, you should talk to the shop foreman. If you're on the dowan ryo, you should talk to the ino. And then the ino can talk to that person. because the Ina has the authority to talk to that person, or the Tenzo has the authority to talk to that person, and the person will listen to the authority more easily than they will listen to their peer. And it takes it out of the realm of you criticizing your peer. Once you say something to your peer, then it feels like criticism. And it may feel like criticism if the practice leader talks to the to you, but still that's the process so that you don't get into trouble or into an argument or into creating a bad feeling between you and your peers.

[02:17]

And then the practice leader should be able to either tell that person or and use that as a teaching device for everybody instead of pointing the finger at one person. Okay? Okay. So we're on the last of the five ranks called Unity Attained. And sometimes people say, well, why is this rank called Unity Attained? Because it's just black. I thought Unity Attained was in the first rank. But actually, it's called Unity Attained because it's the field far beyond form and emptiness.

[03:25]

This is the field far beyond form and emptiness that we, when we do the rope chant, we say, field far beyond form and emptiness. So let's, do you remember when I laid out, I don't know what page this is for you, but you should find it. What's what? 91. unity attained, the last rank, which is black, like lacquer. And do you remember when I laid out the meaning of the swastika? And Greg asked me where I got that story. The story is I got from originally a Korean teacher, Dr. So, who was around in the 60s.

[04:35]

And I asked Suzuki Roshi if I could bring him to Tassajara. And he said, yeah. So I brought him to Tassajara. And he gave a talk in the old zendo, the stone zendo. And when he talked standing up, And when he started to talk, we had an earthquake. What he was talking about, I may have told you the story. He was talking about ants. When you're enlightened, you should be able to hear ants walking a mile away. And at that moment, there was an earthquake. Anyway, he gave me that story in a book. He wrote a book, which is one of my favorite books. because it has, there's a treatise on circles, Isan circles, and I've told you about the writing of circles.

[05:38]

And then Kanz Tanahashi and I started translating, we got interested in circles, and we started translating about circles, and that story came up again. So it's really from that treatise. But the interpretation is my own. But there's, the end of the story I forgot to tell you. The end of the story is, as soon as that monk and Yangshan completed their interaction, the monk flew off in the sky and disappeared. And the two stories differ in how they, it's really interesting how stories differ, the same story. But somebody told Yangshan later, he said, The other story says Yangshan told him, but somebody told somebody that This was an arhat from India who came flying over to check out Yangshan to see if his dharma was straight.

[06:44]

And he felt confident that Yangshan's dharma was correct. So, I want to tell another story, but the way the Dene, which is the field of emptiness. How do we say that in the... But we say Dene... So Dene is a field of emptiness. Den is field. A is like enlightenment, actually, or emptiness. Really a field of emptiness. So, a field far beyond form and emptiness.

[07:46]

That's what we, did we say that in our chant? Field far beyond form and emptiness, right? So this is the field that's far beyond form and emptiness. Because people say, well, if it's white, it's form, and if it's black, it's emptiness. So how come this is black and it's the end? It's like the unification. Well, unification actually means beyond, in this case. What I detained here means beyond form and emptiness. So it's characterized by the black circle, which ordinarily would be emptiness. But it's actually beyond form and emptiness. If you look at the field, the character for field, the blackboard's not here, so I have to draw this.

[08:47]

The blackboard, I mean the blackboard, the field character is a box. square with a line, a vertical line and a horizontal line going across. Four little boxes. That's the character for field. And if you take the swastika that goes this way and the swastika that goes that way and put them together, you have den A. Well, here's how you... You have a box. Oh no, let's do it this way. You have a swastika. The line down, and the line across. And then, da, da, da, da. And then you have another swastika, the line down, going the other way. And you put them together, and they make a box.

[09:49]

which is Dene. The characters are actually at the top of 93. Realm? Realm is Field? No, Field is a box with a vertical line and a horizontal line. Yeah. Realm, or field, but we say field. Okay. This is the end of the Hokyo Zamae.

[11:01]

Many do attain. This is the end of the five ranks, but it's also the end of the Hokyo Zamae. And you'll see why. Many do attain. Who dares to equal that person who falls into neither being nor non-being? Far beyond form and emptiness. Who falls into neither being nor non-being. All folks want to leave the current of ordinary life, but that person, after all, comes back to set them into coals and ashes. In other words, in this rank, even though it's total freedom, nirvana, that person doesn't stay there, but even though it would be nice to do that, the person comes back to sit among the coals and ashes.

[12:04]

In other words, get your feet and hands dirty in the world. So that's the Bodhisattva's path, right? So it's the end of practice in the beginning. It's actually the beginning and end, because it's a full circle, in a way. So, and then he says the last verse, comment. The master here he's talking about is Secho, who compiled the Blue Cliff record and had many verses. So how many times, here's the verse, how many times has Toku-un The idle old gimlet, gimlet is something that you make holes with to a sharp point in leather, you know, if you want to make a hole in leather, you use a gimlet, might come down from the marvelous peak.

[13:06]

He hires foolish, wise people to bring snow, and he and I together fill up the well. A great, let me say something. So old Toku'u, the Ainolo Gimlet, not come down from the Waterless Peak, but he hires foolish wise men to bring snow. So bringing snow to fill up the well is like an endless, impossible task, because when you fill it up, it just melts. Right? So, it's like this, whatever is done is just an endless, fruitless task that has to be done. Don't be discouraged. Because when we look at our life, you know, it's, well, what's all this for? We're just going to die. What are we doing?

[14:10]

We're just going to die. Why put all this effort into what we're doing if we're just going to die? So this is, you know, foolishly filling up the well with snow. Isn't it? Fatal effort, but just doing something without being attached to the result. That's the practice. Just do something without being attached to the result. Then the life comes to life. Yes. I want to speak loud because I have this big current behind me. I wanted to ask, it seems like it's important to see, to judge what you've done, to make sure you're being effective. How does effectiveness of what you're doing fit in with the brain? How does knowing that you're doing something that is correct, something that isn't correct? Well, everything I do is correct.

[15:12]

In the fifth rank. I can't make a mistake. Is that because you've been bombed through the furnace so many times? That's because you're not doing anything. It's better just doing something. Well, if I'm painting a house and I'm painting it green, I should be painting it blue. No, that's the fourth rank. Shouldn't I know that I'm painting it green? Yeah, that's the fourth rank. And the fifth rank, you just do what you're supposed to do. Well, the problem is, when you start thinking that way, then you start getting into creating some morality about the fourth rank and the fifth rank. They're simply guideposts for thinking about things.

[16:16]

They're not real. But if we start making them well, then we say, well, this is the fifth rank, first rank, second rank. Just relax. They're pointing to a certain aspect of practice. But when you try to fit stuff into them, it doesn't work. We're talking about attitudes. You know, it's more in the realm of attitudes than in the realm of specifics. Well, it seems like from what you said that If you just do the thing for the sake of doing it without worrying about the result, then you actually can spend the life pouring snow into the well. It doesn't matter. You're joyful. No, that's right. It's not that it doesn't matter what you do. It does matter what you do.

[17:18]

But in the fifth rank, it's like, who's doing it? The who is doing it. This is like enormous activity. That's the point. The point is that because it's egoless, it's beyond form and emptiness. It's completely without self. This is the wrong that's completely without self. Just doing being directed by Buddha rather than being directed by self. So in this rank, it's like, you know, it's characterized as like a sleepy old man, you know, sniffling and running around, sitting by the fireplace. But everything this person does benefits the world.

[18:22]

It's like you don't have to do something on purpose. There's no volition. Because this person is so egoless that whatever this person does is Buddha's activity. And so that's creating a Buddha field in the world. And the person's not really even conscious of doing that. It's just who that person, who they are. So this is called the all-performing wisdom. This is the rank of when the sense consciousnesses are transformed, it becomes the wisdom of appropriate action.

[19:40]

So that's appropriate action. When I think about the purification of manas leading to marvelous observing and the purification of sense consciousness leading to appropriate action, is that... Manas leads to wisdom. Mano, I guess. Mano is dharma. So, it seems to me like, I mean, if I would have just, like, making guesses at it, I would have guessed that the purification of senses would have led to marvelous observation, you know, sense and observation, and that the discriminating consciousness, the purification of that would have led to appropriate action, and yet I find them reversed. Is there some way that you can explain why that is, or help fill out that picture? No. That's just the way it is. I'm probably taking raisins, but that's the way it is.

[20:42]

Once I heard the path described as kind of a circle, there was the ascending side, then you kind of ascend toward emptiness, and then you descend back down, back into the world. And that seems to reflect, when you're talking about like, you get to emptiness, and then you integrate back in. Well, yes. Depending on which path you're you're following in the five ranks, because there are different paths, different ways of explaining the five ranks. So one way is as a circular kind of thing. The thing about the five positions is you can use them as a map of progression in practice. Or you can use them to see where you are at any time.

[21:56]

So, although it seems like a path of progression, that's just a kind of layout. And it's the easiest way to think about it. But you might be in the fourth rank to begin with. and then you go to the first rank, and then you're in the fifth rank, and then you're in the second rank. So it's not necessarily a progressive. You can see it in a progressive way, but it's not necessarily a progressive order. It's a disorderly order. You can interfuse. It's like the ten oxygen pictures, you know. It looks like a progression, but you can be in any one of those positions at any time, and then the next moment you're in a different world. And you can be flying from one to another,

[22:58]

without even noticing it all day long. So, Sakita says, when you get to the end, then you start again at the beginning. Right there, right? Page 96. When you get to the end, you start again with the beginning. But that doesn't mean that when you get to the end, you start at the beginning. It melts. You're not necessarily stuck in one rank. You flow through. It's a flow through. So each position contains both the relative and the absolute. They all do, but in different proportions. That's all. It's like the phases of the moon. Just sometimes activity is just total activity.

[24:08]

And sometimes stillness is just total stillness. But stillness and activity are always working together. and in different proportions. So one should always be aware of the Absolute within the activity. That's the whole point. And one should be aware of the activity within the stillness. That's the whole point. And to what proportion? So whatever you're doing, You should be aware of the fundamental as well as the comparative. You should be aware of the base as well as the activity, in all of your activity.

[25:14]

That's called continuous practice. That's all. You should never lose, in other words, the sacred within the secular. You should never lose the sense of the sacred within the secular. That's why we do such nice, simple practice, like cutting vegetables, and working in the garden, and sweeping, and stuff like that, because you have an opportunity to be aware, because the activity's not so complicated, and you have the opportunity to stay focused with that awareness. If you're not focused with that awareness, that's not practice. But if you are focused with that awareness, then whatever you're doing is practice.

[26:14]

That the sacred is within the secular. That within the slightest, the most mundane activity is sacred activity. We don't make a separation. It's not like this is sacred and that's secular. It's all one piece in different proportions. Sometimes you're aware of one side and sometimes you're aware of the other. So in the fifth rank, you're beyond both. So whatever you do is correct But not many people are. Some people think that because this is one of the problems with Zen practice is some people say, well, whatever I do, so I'll do whatever I want.

[27:26]

That's not it. Like Charles Manson. I can just do whatever I want because it's Zen or something. So he killed a bunch of people. That's not it. What does it mean to find the sacred in an act of horror like that? You don't. You don't. You should always be aware of the sacred and the secular in any given moment. In your practice. What does it mean to find the sacred in hearing about such an act? Well, it depends on what you mean by sacred. On one level, everything is just as it is. Everything is simply just as it is.

[28:29]

This is the world of absolute reality, is that everything is just the way it is, without judgment, without... Whatever happens is simply the way it is, and that's truth. So, Charles Manson does these things. This is simply the way it is. The other level is our human level. In the human world, because we have pain and pleasure and suffering. We make judgments and rules and we see things as wonderful and we see things as horrible. And so the human aspect is to create good and bad good and evil, right and wrong, and so forth. That's the dualistic realm, no matter how you think about it.

[29:33]

Good and bad, right and wrong, horrible, wonderful, should and shouldn't, and all the laws that go along with it. Because we're humans and we want to protect the human race from problems, from suffering. But suffering goes on no matter what we do. It doesn't matter what we do. It's always going on because it's the nature of the secular world. So we have these two sides, the secular world and the sacred world, within the reality. The reality is like, does not care. But the sacred and secular worlds care. But the secular and sacred worlds are the human worlds. The animal worlds, they don't care that much. Animals just live from moment to moment, eat, destroy whatever they need.

[30:36]

But they're pretty good, actually. They're quite careful how they take care of the earth, mostly. Much better than humans. But So this is all human world. It's really all human world. So, in human world, these atrocities go on, and that's evil. It really is evil. And even Dogen would say, you know, Papias is the evil one in Buddhism. We should steer clear of that. It's all creating karma for whoever does these things. Terrible karma and so forth. But it's all the human world. And the human world is good and bad and right and wrong. And we have to pay attention to that dualistic realm. But at the same time, we have to understand that things are just the way they are.

[31:39]

And if we don't understand things are just the way they are, we'll go crazy. So this is the whole basis of precepts. When we say, don't kill, don't steal, don't do this, don't do that, 10 precepts. If you take those precepts literally, that's the world of right and wrong, good and bad. In the absolute realm, there's no good and bad, no right and wrong, everything is just the way it is. And then in between those two is the bodhisattva precepts, which means that you pay attention to good and bad and right and wrong, and at the same time you do it on the basis of everything is just the way it is. And then on each moment, you have to decide what is the appropriate thing to do. It's not Even though there are rules, rules are only guidelines because a rule does not apply to every situation.

[32:44]

So the precept has to come out from you on each moment. What will I do in this moment? Given these two extremes, the absolute understanding and the relative understanding. The Bodhisattva precept is right in between those two. And it means that even though we have these rules and so forth, you have to make a decision at each moment. This is called the live precepts. Dead precepts is just what's written down. But the live precept is how you actually live your life moment to moment, given the basis of things are just the way they are, suchness, and good and bad, right and wrong.

[33:47]

Don't do this, don't do that. Because sometimes the precept, if you follow the precept, you do the wrong thing. So just because it says, don't do this and do that, doesn't mean that that always is true. Because it's not always true. It's a guideline for your behavior, but it's not a rule for your behavior. So if we just follow the precepts as a rule for behavior, we actually transgress the precepts. You spoke of the two extremes and the guiding rule and in this very moment making that choice. Can you say something about the basis for an appropriate response and the idea of appropriate response?

[34:53]

Well, appropriate response means that what you do matches the situation. Appropriate response is a response based on no-self. They come up together, right? Yeah, that's right. Action and response come up together. Is it the chant that ends the meals that has the words, like a lotus in muddy water? Yes. Well, that's relative, right? It's fairly from a relative point of view, but if there isn't muddy water, absolutely. Well, yeah, metadata is a kind of metaphor, right? It's a metaphor for the impure. It's like the purity is found within the impure.

[35:57]

That's exactly right. So it's a non-dualistic statement. It means purity is found within the impure. If you try to separate the pure from the impure, it doesn't work. Purity is found within the impure. Mud like a lotus in muddy water. The lotus needs the muck. But it rises above it. So even though it may be rooted in defilement, so to speak, it rises above it. So the whole thing together is purity. Not just the lotus. We think, well, the lotus is not pure, and the muck is not pure. But actually, the muck and the lotus together is purity. Because purity means non-duality.

[36:59]

So something in its pure sense is not something separated from what we don't like, or what we think is a mucky. But actually, the muck is a wonderful world for many forms of life. Probably one inch of muck contains more forms of life than all the humans in the world put together. So what is pure and what is impure? It's all human. It's all human judgment. Like, you know, people are cutting down all the forests, right? That's impure activity. That's really, you know, a horrible, evil act, but it's only human judgment. Even as horrible as it is, it's human judgment.

[38:03]

In the big picture, it's just what's happening. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it, because it's human. In the human world, we need to do something about it. But if we understand that it's just what it is, somehow we have a basis for not going crazy. Not to judge the results, but try to create those results as much as we can. Okay, so this is the end of the five ranks more or less.

[39:30]

I gave you this Dogen's and Zenji and the Five Ranks, the Study of the Buddha Ways to Study the Self, but I don't want to do that now. I just want to encourage you to read it to see the connection there. But I thought what we could do is go a little bit further in the Hokyo Zanmai. Go back to the rest of the Hokyo Zanmai. But you see how this is the end of the Hokyo Zanmai, the fifth rank. It's like this is the foolish wise men are like a fool or an idiot, right? At the end of the Hokyo Zanmai. Just be like a dumbbell, like a fool or an idiot. Page 62, practice secretly working your head like a fool or like an idiot.

[40:53]

So, as a matter of fact, if we look here at the bottom of page 62, on the right, like a fool, like an idiot, see the commentary, case 80 of the booklet record, and also the verse quoted in Hockerwin's commentary in the five positions, as an object of study in the fifth position. We just did that. And, if you go up a little bit, when buddhas are truly buddhas, they do not necessarily want to say they are buddhas. That's from Dogon, Genjokaran. So that means, like, unselfconscious. You're not conscious, you know, am I a buddha? I don't know. Who cares? Is this sound practice? I don't know. Maybe. Oh, it is possible to attain his lesson, but it is not possible to attain his stupidity. I like that one. That's great.

[42:07]

I remember Katagiri, she always used to say, when you study Zen, you know, you should be a little bit stupid. Be a little bit stupid. Don't try to be so smart. So let's go up to the top of that section there, where it says, notes. So I can hardly ever remember who these initials apply to, except my own. But, so on. A great practitioner does not call attention to his practice. He practices quietly toward Buddhahood. Most people would regard him as an ordinary being, not a saint. Nonetheless, such a person possesses great wisdom and compassion and helps sentient beings and derives great benefit from the practice. People might be blind to that person's wisdom and compassion, however, and call that person an adult or a fool, but it doesn't matter.

[43:14]

If it matters, you should look at that. And then I said, hidden practice. This is to do harmonious activity without showing off. Don't try to stand out. That's good. I like that. Now someone says, a great recluse hides herself in court and market. Oh yeah. A small recluse hides herself in hells and warts. From this you can see what a practical and shrewd teacher Dungshan was. Not only the mystical insights of Lao Tzu, but also his practical roguishness seems to run in the blood of this great master, Chan. So this is a secret esoteric transmission many would not understand and fall into one extreme or another.

[44:14]

Don't make it known that you know. The esoteric practice consists of not rejecting the five aggregates and the five delusions or poisons, but instead transmuting them into five buddhas or five kayas and the five wisdoms. So it's transmutation and not getting rid of. This transmutation is done by seeing through their real nature as described in this text. The non-esoteric practice, like in Hinayana, consists of rejecting everything that is unwholesome. For beginners, these two ways may seem contradictory, so this teaching is kept secret. When you have a persimmon, when you pick the persimmon as hard, western persimmons, and You have to wait for them to get really soft and terrible looking. But if you eat them too soon, it's like ahhh, astringency.

[45:22]

Who wants this? But when they're ripe, they're the sweetest possible thing. But without the astringency, it doesn't get ripe and taste sweet. So this is the same thing. Transformation. If you try to take the astringency out of the persimmon, the persimmon doesn't get sweet. So that's why we value all of our problems and all of our astringency. You're going to speak? It's called a secret esoteric practice. This is what it is. Not secret, but they were not handed out to people outside of the circle, so to speak. Private. Private? Private, yeah. Private. Intimate. Intimate information. Intimate practices that were only done by those people who were included in the, you know, felt were capable of doing this and capable of understanding and not just kind of, you know, showing off this stuff to people.

[46:40]

So Matthew, let's say you have like a Saturday program at Berkley Zen Center with all sorts of people you've never met before, might come before you go practice, just kind of checking it out. Would you talk about this or would this be something... Probably not, no. I wouldn't. You know, I talk about a lot of things, different things, but mostly what I talk about is to encourage people's practice. That's mostly what I talk about. Sometimes I talk about information and sometimes I'll talk about something from a text or something like that. But mostly my talks are aimed at encouraging people's practice, one way or another. So if I talk about something like this, it would be not to give them information, but to talk about, to encourage their practice. talk about it in such a way that it would encourage their practice. But I wouldn't talk about this.

[47:42]

I would only talk about something like this if I had a class. You wouldn't talk about how you don't have to reject your five aggregates? Yeah, I would say that. I would say you don't have to reject the five aggregates. Yeah, of course. I would say that. If they're not as blind as aggregates were, I don't have to explain what that is, but I would never talk about trying to get rid of the five aggregates and dying. But transformation is encouragement. That's the most encouraging thing that you can talk about, is transformation. Gee, all my defilements can be transformed into positive That's the best encouragement you give to people. You don't have to cut it off. That's called cutting it off, actually.

[48:47]

That's what it's meant by cutting off. But it's a funny, you know, this all comes from Chinese. And Chinese use those kinds of terms. Cutting all the way through, passing all the way through, kind of militaristic, strong terms. Partly because Zen has been so mal-oriented. that a lot of the terms used wouldn't be used in female practice, you know, as descriptive. But because it's been so male-oriented, the practitioners The monks used these male terms, like warlike terms and swords crossed and stuff like that, which women probably wouldn't use. And our practice has become very feminized and become a little more feminized.

[49:50]

And so we don't say penetrating, we say permeating. That was a big controversy at one time. What do you mean penetrating? So permeating is good, you know, better, actually better term. So there's always this kind of tension between male and female terms, which is good because it's that tension that's creative, that's the creative process is keeping the tension. And the creative process in practice of keeping your bad side and your good side working together, that's also the creative tension of progress. creates new forms, creates, you know, transformation. So we don't try to eliminate all that stuff. That's the stuff that we have to work with. If we didn't have it, what would we work with?

[50:52]

We'd all go home, watch television. Watch somebody else's life. My son never watched television. Would watch it sometimes. He wasn't in the news or this and that. He'd come by and say, What are you doing? Watching television? Zen master watching television? Zen master eating ice cream? But you say, why are you watching somebody else's life? Well, yeah. Football? You're watching football? But I used to take him to baseball games. I never liked baseball. But when I took him to baseball games, I got to like it. And I stopped and even went to baseball games on my own after that.

[51:57]

But when they had the big baseball strike, I gave up on baseball. Because the A's were all ready to clinch the pennant, you know. And then they all went on strike. What are they doing? And I just lost interest. Totally lost interest. I never watched a baseball game since then. Well, steroids, yeah. You know, I don't want to go on. I doubt that I won't. It might be helpful to hear a Zen perspective. What? It might be helpful to hear a teacher's perspective on the news. Well, the front page is all about steroids, where the people are being killed all over the world. That, to me, is holding baseball steroids in Congress. Baseball in Congress. What? Michael Garrison. Michael Jackson. The government wants to take away your social security.

[53:00]

Did you know that? You don't know that because you're Tassajara. But it's true. They want to take away all your social security and give all the money to the corporations. So, that's my view. And it's true. What's what? Right action. Right action. Well, we tried to vote. We did vote. And... Did you... Zazen, yes. Zazen. education. People are totally uneducated.

[54:04]

People in this country do not know what is happening until it hits them. Not only that, they don't want to know. That's the hardest part. They could know, but they don't want to know. They see people are voting against their own best interests, and they don't want to know that. They're voting against Because they watch television. Well, that's right. And they just are being fed all this. Crime in high places is so rampant that it's just flaunted because there's no consequences. There's absolutely no consequences. If you are making a business, you know, making a billion dollars a year or something like that, you can do anything you want. And it will be even in the paper. But there will be no consequences. This is a... The noose is just tightening.

[55:05]

People don't see the noose tightening around the neck of the public. How did this happen? Is this related in any way to the Dharma ending age? The age of decline? Well, you know, Mapo was the third 500 years. The first 500 years after Buddha was the age of possibility of practice. The second age, 500 years, was considered the age of counterfeit. In other words, people could talk about Buddhism and study it and all that, but people couldn't really practice it. And the third age was the age of Marae, and this is what brought on the Pure Land School, because the Pure Land School, Shinran and those people said, well there's Marae that

[56:13]

the degenerate age that there's no way that anybody can find salvation through practice anymore. So we simply put our hands, put our trust in Amida Buddha and chant the name of Amida Buddha. That's all you have to do. And Amida Buddha will hear your cries and It was very faith-oriented. But Dogen said, don't believe it, just because there are these predictions. The further away you get from Buddha, the harder it is to understand Buddha, or to practice Buddha. And I can see that there's truth in that. When we were studying with Suzuki Roshi, we just practiced with him and we got his dharma through osmosis and then after he died then we started studying buddhism and that's how we learned how to give classes nobody was taught we all just started studying and then teaching but as you get away from the founder

[57:42]

then you start studying the founder's words. And the more you study the founder's words, the less practice you need, because you can just study. Or you can practice, you know, the practice becomes more and more watered down, because the founder isn't there as a, you know, as a nirmanakaya. But the samarikaya, which is the sutras, is the Sambhogakaya, the wisdom. The wisdom keeps being handed down. And the Nirmanikaya is also a pillar as teachers. So, the edge of that pillar waxes and wanes. So sometimes it's way down here and then sometimes it's up here. So practice for hundreds of years will be very shallow and then somebody will come along and lift it up and it will be in the ascendancy.

[58:44]

Like right now, this is a period of ascendancy for Buddhism in America and in Europe. So Buddhism has come to the West and been saved actually by the West and it's in the ascendancy and at some point it will be in the Buddhism moves from one place to another. It starts out in India, goes to China, Tibet, Southeast Asia, China and Japan and it takes a couple of thousand years and now it's here and so we've received it and we add our assimilate. Buddhism always it meets. So in China it was Dao and Confucianism. In Japan it was Shinto and various folk religions.

[59:52]

In America it would probably be psychiatry and a little Christianity, a little Judaism, you know, a little more eclectic. So, and that actually helps keep it alive because pure Buddhism doesn't exist. It only exists within the culture. People are always saying, well, let's take, see if we can separate Japanese culture from Zen. Well, yes and no. You can't really totally separate it. you look for the elements, like what is original Buddhism? So you go back and you try to find out, let's take all the cultural stuff away, where do you find the real Buddhism? But it's all mixed up with the culture. So as much as we try to find original Buddhism, yes and no. So original Zen, yes and no.

[60:55]

in America, of Buddhism. So we have a great opportunity to acculturate it. But the more acculturated it gets, the more watered down it gets. So this is a great age for Zen because we're out of the mainstream of the culture, although it is entering the mainstream of the culture and getting kind of watered down a little bit. Oh, the Zen master who runs a detective agency? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's, you know, not so bad yet. But, you know, the word dharma is in the vocabulary and so forth, you know. But that's okay, that's okay. But anyway, it's inevitable. It's totally inevitable. That's the reality, is that it will ascend and it will be pure for a while, as pure as we can get, and then it will become more and more watered down.

[62:07]

But that's okay, because that's how it infiltrates the society. And what's wrong with Buddhism infiltrating the society? It's okay. But you say, oh God, that's a watered down, but for somebody else it's meaningful. So we're in our position now, some later, you know, somebody being there. And the age of Mapo, I wouldn't worry about that. I heard that. There are a lot of things about this new chant that I hear that I think, hmm, to say that this is the age of Mapo, this degenerate age, it is a degenerate age, just on the face of it, you know, like culturally. But it's also, degenerate ages are also It degenerates here and it regenerates there. When you look at Genghis Khan and all these people that conquered the world, it was very degenerate, but it was a sprouting of something else.

[63:09]

European civilization came out of that. Chinese civilization came out of the Mongols. So it's the way it goes, birth and death, alternating. culture and religion, everything, like that. So in Japan, Buddhism is old. It's old. And the Americans knew. Suzuki Roshi and Tatsugami, you know, both of them. Tatsugami used to call us young, you know, baby Buddhas. You know, he would just laugh, baby Buddhas, you know, but he loved it, you know, because we didn't have all that cultural baggage. And Suzuki Roshi loved it because We didn't have a lot of cultural baggage. We were all starting out naive. We were so naive. And when people are naive, they really work hard at what they're doing. And the people in the culture say, oh, haha, look at the kids. But if you're not self-conscious, as soon as you start getting self-conscious, then uh-oh, what am I doing?

[64:19]

Don't get self-conscious. Part of the question that I heard was not only what is right action, but what is right attitude. And I heard right action being education, but as a former angry peace activist who had a lot of information and tried to educate, you know, that is not so easy to do. It's not easy to do, but it has to be done. I'm not saying that it's easy to do or that it can be done. I'm just saying it has to be done. Because otherwise people would just keep voting against their own self-interest. Patience. Patience. You just have to have patience. And then how not to be self-righteous? I can't tell you about that, but sometimes you need to be self-righteous. You might need to be self-righteous sometimes, but not as a rule.

[65:23]

You have to believe that peace is better than war. That's right. You're not self-righteous, you're righteous. There's a difference between being righteous and self-righteous. Righteous is that you know that there is something bigger than yourself that everyone should understand. Self-righteous is, and you should follow me to My view of it, self-righteousness, you know, expressing my view of it, rather than just seeing the thing as it is. I think that's what this school has to offer, is to get the plank off your shoulder, from time to time. All the time, yeah. So you can see all the sides, and you're not stuck in seeing one view. Because if the barb is still on your shoulder, that's self-righteous. And when the blood's off your shoulder, it's correctness, which is right-ness.

[66:32]

So yeah, it's important to see things from both sides, but you don't have to believe both sides. I mean, you should be able to see things from both sides, but you don't have to succumb to the side that is not righteous. It's a big problem, always. So it did. Yeah, so, you know, forest workers need to cut down trees in order to feed their children, right? But when you look at weighing the balance, a number of forest workers who need to cut down trees to feed their children and the value of the forests for everybody, would you cut down a forest or would you relocate somehow and re-educate?

[67:49]

And the problem with the government is that when they stop, like say, okay, we won't cut down the forest anymore. And you guys can just go find a job, find a job somewhere. Instead of caring for these people and helping them to do that. So the logical thing would be when you take somebody's jobs away for the benefit of everybody else, everybody else should appreciate that and help these people to find another way to make their living. But the problem is that doesn't happen. You just, okay you guys, so a lot of resentment comes up. I just wanted to add to Junaid's question, to just propose that, like you're saying that rather than tying the generation of the culture with the generation of dharma, you're saying this way that the culture is supporting the rise of the dharma, and I feel just personally that the more I take in and

[69:08]

appreciate and look at the degeneration of the culture the more it's at stake in my practice and then it's kind of the opposite of my whole within me the more I there's nothing to rely on externally and so then I'm sort of driven deeper into practice because the world is in such shambles so in that sense the degeneration of everything is great for our practice opposites create each other The degeneration of the culture generates practice. It's just because that's the reaction. Every action creates an opposite, equal reaction. So the degeneration of the culture is creating, let me say it's creating buddhism. Within you, it's creating a need to practice very sincerely. So mapo is always going on.

[70:11]

It's always the end of the digit. If you read Egyptian history, this old ancient scroll, and say, oh, and all the children were acting like crazy, drinking and carousing, blah, blah, blah. It's always been going on. All this stuff has always been going on. It's just that now it's our turn and we see it like it is now. But it's always been going on. It always will be going on. So you just do what's right for what's in front of you. Because you may reform everything. You may reform the whole country. And the next generation, it will all be gone. And that is exactly what happened. In the 30s the country was reformed. Roosevelt reformed the country. Social Security, put people back to work, you know, all this, all these reforms.

[71:15]

Now it's all being dismantled. All that wonderful stuff is being dismantled. And did you ever see Goldfinger? Yes. Goldfinger was this movie, What was the name of that guy? James Bond movie. James Bond movie. And Goldfinger was this guy who had all of the technology at his fingertips. All the latest and beyond latest technology at his fingertips. And he also had an army of guys that he hired. And he had millions and billions of dollars. And so he could do whatever he wanted. He had all these underground caves and everything. So, and what he wanted to do was take all the money out of Fort Knox, which is where all the gold is stored. Now, I have this little bit, there's a little bit, whether he wanted to take the money out or do... He wanted to contaminate it with radiation.

[72:20]

We don't contaminate it, we just take it out. You know, the corporations are the goldfinger of today. And they put a funnel into the treasury department, and then they just siphon all the money out. That's what's actually happening. They're just siphoning out. Tax cuts for the rich that are permanent? That means they never ever have to pay taxes if you earn more than $200,000 in good? Well, who's going to pay them? What do you mean taxes? You just extract all the money from the rest of the world because you own the whole world. So it doesn't matter. You must be kidding.

[74:19]

It's world domination. You just own the world. This is a very far out theory. And if you're from some parts of the country, you may not like it. But it's really the Civil War. The Civil War has never been really over. The South owned slaves, and they always resented the fact that the North took away the slaves. So now, the world will become the slaves. We'll show you guys. It's still a slave, entirely a slave culture. You're talking about kind of anarchy, social problems, world problems, and I've been thinking about how we can have peace within ourselves. Yeah, you have to do both but you can't do them both at the same time. So this is retreating from the world in order to find your own composure.

[75:52]

And then you go out in the world and do something. So you don't stay here forever. Because this is the place where you find yourself and find your meaning in life. And then you go out in the world and do something with it. I mean, the variance of what that do something with it is huge. It's a big variance of what that means. That's up to you. But everyone should find their way of doing that. It can be all kinds of ways. It can be government, it can be janitor, it can be whatever. So that's, I think that's real practice. I mean, this is also real practice, but it's a side of practice that's active. That's the fourth rank. That's absolutely the fourth rank. That's what that means.

[76:53]

The dusts of the world. You go out in the dusts of the world. And that's exactly what Hakuin says, you know. So he says, in this rank the Bodhisattva of indomitable spirit turns the dharma wheel of the non-dual ality of brightness and darkness and you stand in the midst of the filth of the world, your head covered with dust and your face streaked with dirt. You morph through the confusion of sound and sensual pleasure, buffeted this way and buffeted that. You are like the fire-blooming lotus that, on encountering the flames, becomes still brighter in color and purer in fragrance. You enter the marketplace with empty hands, yet others receive benefit from you.

[77:56]

That's the fifth rank. This is what is called to be on a load, yet not to have left the house, and to have left the house, yet not to be on a load. Are you an ordinary? Are you a sage? The overlords and the heretics cannot discern you. Even the Buddhas and the ancestors cannot lay their hands on you. Were anyone to try to indicate your mind, it would be no more than the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain. So, still, you must not consider this state to be your final resting place. But that's the fourth rank. Right there. but you can do that in Tamsul Hara because before long there will be a guest season and the Lord will come into your home the world will come into your home so you're providing this you're opening up your house for the world to come through and what kind of influence will you have what will they what will people who come through think about you or think about but you know

[79:03]

You don't know what the influence of this place is, but all that contamination coming through will contaminate the world with Buddhism. That's a good contamination. It's a good influence. This place has a great influence. And you're just, you know, are you making beds, or are you a sage? Are you taking care of the bads or are you the enlightened being? You never can tell. But that's the guessing. If you say what you do is a job, that's not right. It's a position. Everybody has a position. And it's a practice position.

[80:07]

So from your practice position, you're directing, you're creating the whole practice period, the whole summer period, if you really take it on and do it with that kind of attitude. Sometimes I've heard people say, guests, say, these Zen students all seem kind of surly and impolite and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I know they're not like that, but people get that impression sometimes. So we have to be very careful how we treat people. And this is the practice of the summer. How do we treat, you know, people we don't know who have a lot of money, maybe, and maybe they're kind of hoity-toity or whatever, you know. And he thinks that we're here practicing Buddhism and they're, you know, making a lot of money out of the world or whatever. doesn't matter. How do you be real?

[81:11]

And treat everybody with the wisdom of equality, as well as the wisdom of discernment, as well as the wisdom of the mirror, just seeing them as they really are, without judgment. correct activity. You exercise the four wisdoms there. And that's what you're practicing all the time. The four wisdoms. It's not theoretical, it's actually real. So we didn't have a chance to complete The hell goes on, right? But you can get, you can probably, I'm sure, we'll move out sometime.

[82:16]

You know. Just a minute. Thank you. You know what? Oh, I don't get on about that. To maintain focus from moment to moment is very difficult. Right, but then it says, should be for shorter and shorter and not longer and longer. Yeah, but what is that? Next one. Don't try to extend presence for longer and longer periods of time. Let's see what this says. If you can achieve continuity, this is called the host within the host.

[83:17]

Just to continue in this way, it's called the host within the host. Don't try to extend presence for longer and longer periods of time. Bodhisattvas instead work on being present in shorter and shorter periods of time. This is taken from memory, by Webb Anderson, not a word for a description. Well, I think in this, what I have learned from this, is instead of, you know, lurking, like, all day, what's going to happen all day, or what's going to happen all week, it's like, what's happening right now? It's okay to think about what's going to happen next week. It's like, when you go, as I said the other day, when you're in a zazen, it's a shame. It's not necessary to think about what will happen over seven days. You just think about what's happening now. Something like that.

[84:19]

That's what I think is shame. Well, like I said, it's going to be, you're going to practice the whole summer, just practice. That's right. Yeah, don't worry about the whole summer. Let somebody else do that. Just worry about what's happening. Let one side worry about that. But this is an interesting passage. Just to continue on this line, it's called the host is in the host. And I said, this is consummated practice. There is no attempt to do something special, and everything one does is beneficial. I don't like that. So... The host within the host, that's like the fifth rank. Going beyond.

[85:21]

So, Taoism is always, one of its characteristics is to Go beyond, going beyond. He's always characterized as going beyond, going beyond, going beyond. And no matter how far out he gets, there's still something more. Okay. There's something that came to my mind, you know. There was some fundamental Christians, sect, who feel that because Armageddon is nigh, that it doesn't matter what happens to the environment because the world is going to dissolve anyway.

[86:24]

But there's also a movement among fundamental Christian sects to preserve the environment. So that's a counter-movement which, if that's supported, would be good for lends a little optimism into the picture. So before everybody goes crazy, maybe somebody will be sane enough to intervene.

[87:04]

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