So Hozon gave me an introduction that's perfect for this talk. It's just perfect. Because what I want to talk about is, I had the thought recently, because I've been here a long time, and some people know that, and they think, well, gosh, here's somebody who's been here a long time, what's it do for him? What do you learn? So I was thinking how I would answer that. And I remembered back in the early days when we were on Russell Street, a comparative religion class, I think it was an extension class from UC, maybe, something like that, or maybe Merit, came in. They were all adults in the evening, and I gave them a little presentation in the Zendo about introduction to BDC and Zen.

[02:09]

It was very short. And then they asked questions. And included in the group was either the current mayor or the former mayor of Berkeley, Gus Newport. He was the mayor between 1979 and 1987. So people asked me various questions and I could answer them pretty well, I thought. And then Gus Newport raised his hand, the mayor, and said, well, what's this done for you anyway? And I didn't have a good answer because, you know, with no gaining mind, you know, so you don't want to create some kind of materialistic, this is what it'll do for you if you come to Zen practice. I didn't want to create that kind of context. So I kind of hemmed and hawed and faked it, and it was pretty lame. Whatever I said, it just was not satisfactory to me at all. I really didn't know how to answer that, especially to a group of people who had no background in Zen practice.

[03:14]

What's this going to do for you? And you know, you could say something kind of profound or Zen-y, but I really didn't know how to honestly answer that. in a way that wouldn't be misleading to them. And then, just in preparing for this talk, I came upon the perfect answer from Suzuki Roshi. Now, many years later, if only I'd known, here's his perfect answer. Zen practice is not training in the ordinary sense. Ordinary training is to improve ourselves. Zen practice is to be ourselves. And I thought, that's what I should have said, something like that. And also Suzuki Roshi used to talk about, I didn't ever listen to him directly, but I've read, he used to talk about that Americans are really into self-improvement. much more so than Japanese. That was then, I don't know what it is like now. So, self-improvement is important to us.

[04:20]

It's kind of like an American quality of, you know, land of opportunity, you can be whatever you want to be, that kind of myth, actually, that individualistic, you know, you can do it, whatever you want to do, something like that. And the problem that I had with that situation was that, you know, no gaining mind is really a key aspect of Soto Zen. On the other hand, if you think about it, we're always wanting to gain something. Everything we do has a reason why we're doing it. We're going to gain the result of what we're doing. So, I think that when we're talking about no gaining mind, what we really mean is no self-aggrandizement. no gaining that's going to enlarge our sense of self, our idea of self.

[05:23]

But it doesn't mean that gaining just as is, is a problem. It's just when we become egocentric about it, or self-centered about it, or I'm becoming such a really great person, even if it's really, really subtle, and if we're really honest about the way our egos work, you can see that, I can see that. And for instance, you know, coming to the Zendo at 5.40 in the morning, for instance, on a regular basis, I wouldn't do it without some gaining mind, something that this is going to be good for me in some way. Don't know exactly what way, but I would say that if it feels And it doesn't always have to feel good either. But if it feels important or essential to my life, then I want to do that. So that, you could call that gaining mind.

[06:25]

But once you sit down and you're sitting, then you can just let go of that. You don't have to sustain that during zazen. And I think that's what they're aiming at when they talk about no gaining mind, is your actual Zen practice of sitting is not a matter of gaining something. Dogen went to China when he was in his early 20s, and he wanted to find his true teacher, Rujing, who wound up being his true teacher. Arju, his trip to China from Japan, found Rujing just by exploring a few different monasteries, and they had a wonderful relationship. And he would have talks with Rujing, and Rujing would answer his questions. and he had an enlightenment experience there and dropped body and mind. When he came back, people would ask him, well, what'd you learn?

[07:31]

Or what happened when you went to China? And here's what he said. Not having visited too many Chan monasteries, but having only studied under the late Master Ru Jing, and plainly realizing that the eyes are horizontal and the nose vertical. Without being deceived by anyone, I came home empty-handed. Therefore, I returned without a trace of the Buddhadharma, and depending on destiny, I let the time take its own course. Morning after morning, the sun rises in the east. Night after night, the moon sinks in the west. The clouds disappear and the mountains are manifest. The rains pass and the four mountains, which is birth, death, sickness and illness, are low. So he says, you know, I came back with nothing. And yet he had kept a diary of these 50 questions, which you can read in book form.

[08:32]

It's called Dogen's Formative Years in China, I think. And there's 50 really solid, great questions that he got from reaching and brought back with him and were very important to him. So he gained an answer to these questions, but at the same time could say, I came back empty-handed. So, about this question of what have I learned from Zen practice over a long period of time, I thought, well, I'm going to ask myself that question, and whatever comes to my mind first is what is what I'm really interested in. I'm not interested in sitting down and figuring this out, thinking it out, editing it, coming up with a really good answer. Whatever comes to my mind first is what I'm interested in, and I'll trust that. Like, first thought, best thought, something like that.

[09:35]

So here are the four aspects of practice, and I realized that these are focuses of practice. That they're not, if I can't say I've learned these, I can say that I've learned to focus on these, and by focusing, I'm learning these four aspects. Now, if I really thought about it, sat down, I probably would change it around and edit it, and add something and take something away, who knows? But this is what first came to me. Open mind, paying attention, keep it simple, and let go. Those four aspects. Open mind, pay attention, keep it simple, and let go. So I'll just talk a little bit about each one of those and how I understand those.

[10:42]

I have sort of little code words here for what I should say, but I'm actually, because I don't want to stumble around, but I will stumble around because open mind to me is There's something creative about it, for one thing, just this enormous creativity and having an open mind, rather than an agenda. So I think that's why I mostly like it. And it's so tiresome to hear in my own thinking and attitudes that people have of a kind of a one-sided point of view where there's an agenda and they're driving this one point home and can't see another side to it. And to me, it's just so refreshing, especially politically or in news, to hear both sides of something with equal respect.

[11:51]

Even if you just don't like the other side, to have respect for that other side just seems really important to me. Or to at least respect why that person might be thinking or feeling like that. And really zazen, if you think about zazen, it's sitting down and having an open mind. And when you start thinking and your agenda starts cranking in, you know, all the stuff that goes on in our minds, just making an effort to let go of that and come back to just an open mind. You know this. It's incredibly simple. It's not complicated. Uchiyama Roshi has a book and a phrase that is Opening the Hand of Thought.

[13:09]

And he has an essay called Opening the Hand of Thought. And in a way, this is open mind. Our thinking is enclosed. It's enclosed in our conditioning. and our ego and what we like and what we don't like is enclosed in our attitude and in our thinking process as well. So just opening that up, letting that be open, doesn't mean trying to wipe out something, or get rid of something, or deny anything, or repress anything, it just means allowing ourselves to relax, and just have an open mind. It's very difficult, as you found out, most likely. It's not easy, because our thought patterns are so powerful.

[14:15]

Here's a little interchange that Uchiyama wrote about between Sekito and his student, Tenno. Sekito lived in the early 700s. As you know from the Buddhas and Ancestors, he's a disciple of Sagan. So, Tenno asked Sekito, what is the essential meaning of Buddhadharma? And Sekito replied, no gaining, no knowing. Tenno said, can you say anything further? And Sekito said, the expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds. the expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds. And we may even have some today. So as I understand this, and you may hear it differently, is that Ujjyama's opening the hand of thought

[15:38]

And open mind is like the sky, is like the vast sky. And the clouds are all the activity and circumstances that we come into contact with, but we just allow them to do what they do. And we don't try to obstruct them or manipulate them. And there's a harmony between all the activity that's going on, which includes conflict, and the sky which can just hold the whole thing and not feel a need to make something happen. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make something happen. It just means that this particular way of being open-minded is represented in this kind of nature image.

[16:42]

You may hear that differently. You may hear something else, and when we come to have a discussion, you can say what you think about that. So the second aspect is Pay attention. Paying attention. Which is basically mindfulness, of course. But I like the active way of saying it, rather than mindfulness. It's paying attention. This is Ron. Pay attention. It's like, we need to do this, is pay attention. Hosan started a five class series on Thursday night of mindfulness class on the Satipatthana Sutra for starters. And very, it's a very, it's a Theravadan, actually it's an original sutra, but very categorized and now analytical way of looking at mindfulness.

[17:44]

And I think for some people that works really well, to really focus on a particular aspect of mindfulness, which I'll come to in a minute. But for me, mindfulness is, the big meaning for me is it includes everything. So whatever I'm experiencing, I want to pay attention to that. and not take something for granted, been there, done that. In the Satipatthana Sutra there are four foundations of mindfulness, which you're probably familiar with. Mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of feelings, which are pleasant feelings, unpleasant feelings, or neutral feelings.

[18:56]

Mindfulness of mental states or mental factors. And the fourth, which includes emotions, by the way. And the fourth is mindfulness of dharmas or mind objects. So if we see something, if we are aware of how things are changing, that's a dharma, a dharma of impermanence, for instance. The third foundation of mindfulness, which includes emotions, is, from my point of view, is the arena that most of us have to really deal with our emotions. How we handle our different emotional states, which are always changing, which can be extreme or it can be moderate, you know this.

[20:04]

We all have these emotions. In Zen practice, and particularly BZC, we don't talk about emotions per se so much. And I think the reason is, or I would imagine a good reason, is that once you start talking about emotions and you you know, your viewpoint on maybe what are healthy emotions or what are, not healthy, but wholesome emotions versus unwholesome emotions, wholesome mental states versus unwholesome mental states. If you start, if you get too much detail about that, you start setting up a model and then people try to, you know, feel like they need to model their emotional state after what they're hearing. And it can get pretty claustrophobic. And also, it's endless. Because if we really tune into our emotions, and all the variations, and all the ups and downs, it's endless.

[21:09]

It really is endless. So, I think we avoid talking about emotions per se, in terms of actually going into them too much. But there's no reason why It can't be done, but it just has to be done skillfully, I think. I'm not the one to do it. But one really, an easy way that's really very mainstream for Buddhism is just to talk about the hindrances, the five hindrances, which are all emotions, basically. There is sensual desire, laziness, skepticism, being constantly skeptical, anxiety, and its more extreme end of it, which is fear, and anger.

[22:12]

And interestingly, when Hozen started this class on Thursday, He was using a Thich Nhat Hanh introduction to it, and right from the first several sentences, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but what Thich Nhat Hanh said was he mentioned anger and fear, or anger and anxiety as being kind of critical in terms of our understanding of mindfulness. Right from the beginning he says that. So, interesting. For me, it's anxiety and fear are really my hindrance, my main hindrance. And I think if you look at yourself, you'll find one of those five is your primary hindrance. And it's, in some kind of funny way, it's very impressive to me, how deep this goes.

[23:21]

And we can think our way, we can think forever, and you can intellectualize about it, and you can analyze it, but something as primal as fear or anger are deep, deep, deep. could also be sorrow and other emotions too, but just in terms of the hindrances, they're all emotions. And if you think what's happening during zazen, it's actually, even though it seems like there's a lot of thinking there, depending on who you are, there may be a lot of thinking going on, there's also, if you look at it, there's also, or feel it, there's also emotions going on. So we have to pay attention to that. It's not like there's a formula for it. Well, the formula is letting go of attachment. That's easy to say.

[24:26]

But there's no formula. We just have to pay attention to it. And my feeling is, if we have confidence in our ability to just pay attention and stay with it, that we learn something. It may not be something that we can intellectualize or put into words, but let's just say we become familiar with how this works within us. So paying attention is important. The next aspect is keep it simple. So as I mentioned, that's part of my dharma name. simple, simple plane. It's actually why I chose Zen over some other form of ... I was interested in meditation, that's why I started doing this.

[25:34]

And why I chose Zen was that it was the simplicity of Zen. Like downplaying the ritual and downplaying the ceremonies, even though we have plenty of that, there's other practices that have more, believe me. And basically the heart of it is this very extraordinarily simple thing of sitting still. And day after day, not like every once in a while on a retreat, but day after day, the simplicity of that and the fundamental basicness of that is what attracted me to Zen. And I feel like in this world, in this society, there are so many choices and options, and technology is just going crazy with all the different kinds of entertainment that there are, and communication that there is, that there's this huge amount of distraction going on.

[26:47]

When I go for a walk up in the Oakland Hills almost every day, Half the people I see have earbuds. Well, these are young people, partly because they're coming down from the high school, but not only. They have earbuds in or they're looking at their phone. And I think, you know, this is what our society is transitioning into, is like constant kind of stimulation and the ability to just be simple and appreciate simplicity. is not so good. And actually, in zazen, just being able to be simple, just being able to sit there and let what happens happen, rather than entertain ourselves with our various dramas, that kind of challenge of that simplicity is there.

[27:49]

Actually, some people don't like driving. Oops, that's the wrong category. Sorry. That was the category of paying attention. We'll let that go. It's a problem from reading from notes. Suzuki Roshi said, there's a chapter in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, where he said, It's called, the chapter I think is called, Limit Your Activity. And his point in that essay, or that talk that he gave, was that if you limit your activity, if we limit our activity, then we can really pay attention to what we're doing, we can really get into each thing we're doing. So it's not a matter of there's some virtue in being simple, per se. It's that by being simple, we can actually put more of ourselves into each thing we're doing, rather than being spread out and diffuse.

[29:06]

Very logical, actually. but it's not as entertaining, maybe, or not as dramatic as if we've got a lot going on, you know, and there's this going on, and this going on, and this going on, and we get tired of this, and we can move over to this, and then we can move over to that. I see that in myself, just at home, you know, with a computer and all the little fun things you can do with a computer. On the other hand, the downside is if you make a cult out of being simple, because Zen, especially the Japanese aesthetic, has this kind of Japanese garden where there's space and a certain kind of simplicity. It's not like a British flowering garden so much. if we make a cult of simplicity and everything has to be just, you know, space, spare, and we don't want anything that's kind of, you know, out of place, that kind of simplicity can just be obsessive.

[30:11]

So, you know, simplicity which is easygoing, natural, rather than trying to make everything simple. Which is true with Azen too, if you try to make it simple and just create conflict. And the last aspect is letting go, which is really the heart of Buddhism. The Second Noble Truth is that the reason that we're suffering is because we're attaching to things. You know this. This is basic, the most basic Buddhism. And so non-attachment, to me, is the pivot point that Buddhism pivots on. It's non-attachment. In other words, rather than gaining something, we're letting go of something. This is why I trust Buddhism as a path, because many other spiritual groups and religions, the whole thing is what we believe in.

[31:23]

We can believe in this and now we can trust in this. We can hold this and believe in it and now we know everything is okay because we believe in this way of faith. But what about just letting go, which is not attachment? You could have faith in letting go, that's true. I do have faith in letting go, but it's not a belief system. It's not like a belief system where you have a kind of a form and you can hold it close to you. Letting go is just letting go. Suzuki Roshi said about effort, he said, the effort that we make is letting go of what's extra. That's our effort in Zen practice. The question is, what's extra?

[32:28]

That's a natural question. And I think each person has to find that. You can't make a rule about what's extra. Each person has to do that for themselves. I went to the East Coast several times back in the 80s to go to sessions with Master Sheng Nian, Chinese teacher, Zen teacher. He was a remarkable person. I really liked him a lot. He came here and gave a talk one time. And he came to San Francisco Zen Center as well. I think he came to Berkeley because I had met him and I told him about Berkeley, so he came and stopped by here. You can look at him on YouTube and see who he is or who he was. He died about at least 10 years ago, I think.

[33:31]

He's about two years age difference from Sojin. He tells us, anyway, as a teacher, He was very good, very relaxed, but knows a lot, knew a lot, and very firm, but also relaxed at the same time. It's interesting, you can see on YouTube the conversation he has with the Dalai Lama, and going back and forth, and basically the Dalai Lama is kind of deferring to him. So Master Sheng Yen tells a story about a pivotal moment in his life when he was a young monk in a monastery in Taiwan. He was kind of a rock star in Taiwan when he became a teacher. He had a big monastery and he was really well known and then he had this outpost in Queens, New York, which was kind of simple and a little funky when I was there, but it was very lovely actually.

[34:37]

So he was in this monastery as a young monk and he was irritated with the way that things were being done in the monastery. if you've ever had a problem with how things are being done at BTC, that's what was going on. And it was really irritating him and bothering him. And he sat down in the evening with a friend of his who was a fellow monk. And the friend said, well, tell me about it. What's bothering you? So he just poured out everything, all of his irritation that was irritating him about the way the monastery was being run. And finally came to a stop and it was quiet for a minute. And then the friend said, put it down. And for whatever reason, he heard that. He heard that in a deep, deep way and had a big kind of enlightenment experience. That simple comment at the right time and the right person, put it down. Everything you're saying may be true, but put it down.

[35:41]

Put down your holding on to it has to be a certain way. And it's easy to talk about, you know, like in a lecture, but when something comes up that really has got a grip on us, if somebody tells you just put it down, not so easy, you know. And actually, sangha, I think that the beauty of sangha practice is that It challenges us to deal with, number one is our emotions, when we have conflicts or different ways of seeing things. And we can see how we're holding on to our point of view. if we were up in a mountain cave someplace, or being a hermit, we wouldn't see that so well.

[36:42]

You know, we wouldn't see that kind of, invariably, whenever there's a group of people, there are conflicting points of view. So how do we, how do you have a conflict with somebody, and let's just say one that really, really is vivid for you. And how do you deal with that with a fellow sangha member or group in a way that can be harmonious? That kind of challenge, there's no substitute for that kind of challenge. This is like being with people. So in some sense we don't have to deal with that problem when we're just sitting still looking at the wall. That's one side. The other side is when you're with people and they have differences, then what? And also just enjoying when you have similarities or you're congruent, enjoying that too.

[37:46]

And, matter of fact, being inspired by that. So I think that's about it. Just one thing I could say is each of these aspects, open mind, pay attention, simplicity, and letting go, they all have a downside. I guess Abhidharma practice, there's a, it's called a near enemy of a wholesome characteristic. So they all have downsides where you can go negative with them. So the downside of being open-minded is being kind of spaced out. You know, whatever, whatever, whatever. Or paying attention can become kind of self-conscious and obsessive, you know. No, just what I've said.

[38:51]

It could be a kind of self-consciousness of, you know, watching myself all the time, making sure I don't do something wrong or wondering what's going on. So paying attention can often have an obsessive quality to it or arranging. If you ever see Sojan with the altar, you know, boy, it's got to be just exactly right. I'm not, if he wasn't here, I wouldn't be saying that. And simplicity, you know, it could be being afraid of complexity. So just because simplicity is a valuable function, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with complexity. That if something comes up that's complicated, it's just complicated. But if you take it one step at a time, it's easier and more simple. And then letting go could also just be a kind of indifference, like, I don't care. So what?

[39:52]

And that doesn't work very well. So I'll stop, and if you have anything you'd like to say, please do. Dan? Thanks for your talk. I'm just curious what you think young people are doing when they're listening to their earphones, and I'd perhaps like to challenge some of your thought on that. Okay. They're doing something that's interesting. That's what I think is happening. I would encourage everyone, obviously not just you, to perhaps consider it's not just entertainment. No, I said interesting. Yes, but in your talk you use that. Okay, so I'm changing that to interesting. You could be listening, my wife listens to books on tape, well that's not, that's kind of entertaining. All right, but say it's really interesting, it's really a subject which is really a very serious, important subject and it's interesting to you. Yeah, so let's take that.

[40:54]

to avoid harassment. I hear a lot of comments about young people these days. It's one of my missions to try to open people's perspectives. that there is a ... and there is still a gigantic shift from what it was in the past into listening to something that's different than what you're actually experiencing, for instance, outdoors. There's a gigantic shift in that. That's all I'm saying. But I hear what you're saying, too. Yeah. Especially the one about women just wanting to not be harassed. Charlie? Thank you, Brian. Tremendous talk. I've got two things to say here.

[42:08]

One is this whole thing about smartphones. I think it's And the difference between those two, well, letting, if you, it's actually, I don't want to call it a difference. Just doing is letting go of a, thinking about what you're going to be accomplishing.

[43:11]

So that's just doing, it's just doing and being into it without, and by just doing this I'm going to accomplish something later. So I think they're actually very linked. Yeah. Peter? I wonder if you could say something a little bit more about For some people that works really well and for other people it doesn't. That's my sense of it, yeah. Anybody else have a feeling about that? Yeah.

[44:17]

It means you want to name it. And it means you want to think about it and share your thoughts about it. Yeah, there's a place for that, absolutely. It's just, I think Zen practice is, at least here, you're cautious about going too far with that. Yeah, and then, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's fine to talk about it and name it, and that's actually what the Satipatthana Sutra is all about, is talking about it and naming it, and being helpful in that sense, to give you some sort of shape and form to look at. And for some people, I think that can work really well, and other people, it's not harmful, but it's not really their path to do that. Oh yeah, you mean being precise about it. Yeah, I agree.

[45:22]

Yeah. Ed, sorry. This is... I didn't talk about aging, by the way, but this is aging, yeah? It doesn't mean that you wouldn't do something. It just means that you... It's hard to explain. It doesn't mean not doing something.

[46:26]

it would mean, in a sense, not separating yourself from what's going on. You know, that you see somebody's doing something that's very harmful and you want to alleviate that somehow, but you don't separate yourself in terms of they're bad and I'm good. It's just like you're together and you want to do something that shows that what they're doing is harmful. I think it's that attitude that's really important. Yeah. Yeah, well, you can be worked up about it, but even if you are, that you still won't lose sight of that you're in this together. Yeah. Yeah, it is really hard. If you see somebody really being suffering and being hurt, I don't think there's any way to avoid being worked up about that.

[47:32]

Yeah, I know what you're going to say. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't seem like that long. But you're right. You're right. It was a long time ago. Yeah. And his answer was, regulate your life. And that kind of went through me like a shot. I've never forgotten that moment. And it's applicable to all of the things that you're saying. If what's happening is that, you know, like to me, if I'm The term that we use in our chapel is upregulated.

[48:45]

Upregulated, meaning excited, you know, I've got all these neurotransmitters zooming around in my system, and I'm really upset. I may not be able to think straight. And if I'm going to respond to, say, a situation where my head is racing, I want to be able to think clearly, which means I have to come from a place of regulation, of bringing the heat down a little bit, not cooling, not extinction, not this, that value, but bringing it down so that I can take it clearly and effectively. And I think all of those points that you've been raising, they seem to Yeah, I think that's true. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah.

[49:47]

Dean. But can't point it to you, so... You and I have had a couple of head-buttings. And I'm a pretty emotional person, and it's pretty obvious I'm an emotional person. And I'm very appreciative that every time I come out of that, I still really like you a lot. And first of all, that is really great. I love that. But I'm curious about, I don't see your emotion in the way that I understand emotion. And when you were talking about emotions, I was thinking, well, you kind of don't have them.

[50:50]

And instead, I don't really see them. And I'm really curious about what happens to you, someone who's sort of different in that expressive way when we've had these headbutts. What happened to me? What am I feeling? Yeah, what emotions are you having? Oh, I see. [...] It's complex. If I'm in a conflict, I have several different kind of emotions. One is I always have the feeling that you can... My feeling is we can always resolve a difference. I have faith in that. It doesn't mean that we agree, but there's a way to accept the other person's point of view. I always feel like that. So I have that feeling like, how can we resolve this without either person having to give up their point of view?

[51:58]

How can both point of views be okay? That's one feeling, and I'm thinking how to do that. You could call that an emotion. I think that's an emotion. The other is being kind of irritated, that, yeah, come on, get off, get off, get over it, that kind of feeling. I mean, this is the way emotions work. There's a slew of emotions. But I know better than to lash out at somebody because I mean, usually. Because it's counterproductive. You lash out at somebody and it just starts a fight going. It doesn't help anything. But I have that impulse to do that. I would like just to say, you're crazy! But I hold myself back. But there's that emotion to want to do that. So do you feel like that really deep belief in faith, that there's a way to work this out.

[53:01]

That is more of what guides you through the conflict. And that's what I perceive as... Yeah, I'm looking for how can we... understand what's happening without giving up on necessarily a point of view and being able to hold both. But without being too nicey-nice about it, you know. And be honest. You have to be honest too. Yeah. Thank you. Getting close. A couple more minutes. Mira. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[54:02]

It's really difficult. It's really difficult. Yes, it's very difficult. Yeah. It's not always what we want. No. But it's what we get. That's right. Now, one more. Judy? Yeah, thank you very much, Ron. It's also been a great discussion. Something that I really reflect a lot on is the aspect of belonging, which I can use a bit. well in the system and how it relates to cultural mythology. So I thought it would be specific and come from that regulated place. There were two comments that you made that landed in my body as really uncomfortable. of Judaism, I don't have that experience that you have of, let's say, a particular distinction between this word, belief, practice.

[56:05]

To me, my experience of Judaism is very aligned with Dogon's enlightenment and practice or not to. So I would use the construct of belief and practice. In fact, in Hebrew, there's an expression, uh, just, um, do and listen. So, uh, and the other was, uh, we were talking about, um, sort of maybe the, uh, uh, individualism or, like, sort of the American dream. And, um, you know, for whom? Who's America? On MLK Day, we were, uh, listening to Dr. King's speech at Stanford, an all-white group in those days. And it speaks to that point. So depending on my heritage and my roots, I can say, I'm going to have a different experience of what the culture is.

[57:09]

And I think of it as cultural mythology. So my question is, when you're talking about the Asaka, or belonging, how to practice with, there's a belonging piece and how to be open as a sangha to the myriad sanghas and we belong to all of them. How do you do that? How do you keep that simple? That's a complicated, too complicated question. I'd like to talk to you about Judaism outside someplace and you can educate me. The second one, We're getting right at the end and I don't want to go on. It's just too complicated to answer or really get us tracked more carefully what you're saying.

[58:12]

But we can talk about it outside. Yeah, okay, thank you. All right.

[58:28]

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