We're happy to have visiting us today Norm Fisher, who is a priest at San Francisco Zen Center, residing at Green Gulch. Those of us who were in session will remember Norm's wife, Kathy, stayed with us during the session. So we are very happy to welcome Norm, poet, priest, and father of twins. Thank you. Morning. Even before I begin, I should tell you that I'm not a lecturing priest. I think this is my second lecture ever, so I'm not very good at it.

[01:13]

That's why I'm a kitchen priest right now. I work in the kitchen. And also, I had no idea that... Mel just called me up late yesterday afternoon, so I didn't have a chance to think about it very much. So forgive me if I sound inexperienced. The last, the first and last lecture I gave before this was also here in Berkeley in the zendo that was in the community room during a one-day sitting, and that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that. Anyway, what I want to try to talk about today is two aspects of, talk about zazen as the

[02:28]

subject, but maybe two aspects of zazen practice that I have noticed, two sort of takes or two ways of looking at zazen practice. One of them being maybe the yogic side of it, more flashy side of it. where we have maybe a side that is most noticeable in a sasheen. And we've just had a sasheen here pretty recently, so maybe you know what I mean. A kind of zazen where you really get thoroughly into your breath, thoroughly into your posture. And you often have experiences that are somewhat extraordinary. And a lot of times when you read Zen literature, the ineffable or strange quality of some of the dialogues seem to have to do with this sense of samadhi that we're dealing with in the sasheen.

[03:43]

The other aspect of zazen that I want to bring up is more, I would say, conduct, more sense of daily zazen, maybe everyday zazen, zazen that doesn't seem so spectacular, but you just return to the cushion and you keep trying to put your mind on your breathing, and even though you can't do it, you keep coming back and back to it. So I don't mean to say that those are two separate types of zazen. One informs the other, and they quite a bit interpenetrate, but it's two different ways of looking at zazen, perhaps. And it's important to, I think, to see that. and to... Anyway, in my view, the way I'm thinking about it today, I think the zazen of conduct, the zazen that focuses on or has to do with conduct, I feel is a whole lot more difficult and a whole lot more fundamental

[04:54]

And I always feel when I come here that this kind of practice, the practice of people who are sitting sincerely and also maybe having worldly responsibilities, families and so on, is the best kind of situation to work on that fundamental kind of practice. You know, the Zen school, as you know, came out of a very developed and complicated situation in Chinese Buddhism. You know, very scholastic and all kinds of schools and techniques and so on, and the Zen school kind of cut through all that and said, we don't need to depend on the scriptures, let's just realize that everyday mind is the way, everyday mind is the Buddha Dharma. And in fact, a whole very revolutionary brand of literature grew up around this idea that one's everyday words and activities were, in fact,

[06:05]

expressed, did in fact express the ultimate truth so that the next step was that it made sense to write down or collect stories about famous monks and teachers because those stories themselves about what they did and what they thought in ordinary situations were really as valid a teaching as the scriptures. So this vast literature was created called the Yulu Recorded Sayings of the Teachers. So this was a great step in the development of Buddhism. It wasn't all about any longer the sutras and studying the sutras and explicating the sutras, but it was about what you did, what happened when you held up your staff, or what happened when you were digging in the garden or planting a tree. Still, these were monks living in monasteries and living a training life in the strictest, most formal sense.

[07:07]

So I was just sort of fantasizing or imagining that perhaps for us, the next phase or the next great contribution that we may make as Americans, just because of our situation, is not only to create a literature that has to do with everyday life, but to actually practice in and live in everyday life as our truest way. So maybe this kind of community of working and having families and sitting and becoming active in political and social areas maybe is the next phase of Buddhism. But then you know all about that, so I don't need to say anything more about that. I did bring a book that I wanted to quote from, and use as my text today, because I happened to be studying this book before, and Mel phoned me up and said, would I talk?

[08:20]

And I said, well, what would you like me to talk about? He said, I don't know, whatever you want to talk about. I have been trying to commit this particular paragraph to memory because I thought it was really great, and so I'd like to share it with you and maybe just read it and comment on it a little bit, and that will be the substance of my talk. This is Robert Aitken's book called Taking the Path of Zen, which I recommend highly as a good book for... introductory book for beginners and also a book for people who have been practicing for a while. I'm certainly, this is my second time through on it, so. Anyway, he says here, Zazen is the fundamental way of cultivating enlightenment and love. Each breath is emptiness itself. Each breath is appropriate.

[09:23]

In zazen periods, we devote ourselves wholly to our practice. In this crystal clear situation, we encounter our self-centered delusions in their most obtrusive form, not deluded by the usual conditions of life. By returning to our practice whenever these delusions arise, we train ourselves in choosing what is fundamentally appropriate, and we loosen the grip that delusions have over us. Zazen is the fundamental way of cultivating enlightenment and love. I think what's quite striking here is the inclusion of the term love that you don't often hear.

[10:37]

It seems to be a Christian take, and you don't often hear it talked about in Buddhist circles. In my experience, I find that Very, very true. That if you practice zazen, you create some space around your delusions. You know, you still have your delusions. You still are a particular person with a particular set of tendencies that get you into trouble. That's a wonderful thing. And if we didn't have the tendencies and trouble, would all be very boring, you know? And boredom, as we all know, boredom is the enemy of spiritual practice, right? So you put some space around your delusions, within your, instead of being right up against your delusions or your problems, there's a little bit of space there, a little bit of humor.

[11:49]

You know, one develops a little bit of humor You also just get used to it after a while. Boy, I'm really dumb. And I'm used to that. I've seen it happen so many times before that it's getting kind of funny. But the great thing about that is that you begin to notice at the same time that other people are in about the same boat. There's nothing much special about you and your dumbness. It's pretty average. I think everybody's pretty average, actually. Some people might seem to be brilliant, but when you get down to it, everybody's pretty average. Everybody's got the same stuff, which is to say, everybody is born of a mother, fathered by a father, and they're all heading in the same direction. We're all going to die, and that's the basic average facts. So when you come down to that, and that's really where you're at,

[12:51]

you begin to have a great feeling for other people because everybody is exactly where you're at and you're just where they're at. And automatically what comes up is love. You have a lot of love for other people and for yourself in this kind of situation. And I think that's the most important aspect of... So he hits it, you know, like most Zen writing, right in the beginning he says, well, what this is all about is we're cultivating love. and enlightenment, which is maybe another way of saying love. And we're actually working at it. We're working at our ability to love when we sit on a cushion. Each breath is emptiness itself. Each breath is appropriate. And one could go on and on and on about this term, emptiness, and equally one could go on a long time about breath.

[13:53]

We're all students of breath and masters of breath when we practice sasan. But maybe one way of saying what is meant here, each breath is emptiness, is And you can try this out, following your breath, being aware of your breath in zazen. Where does the... And now, you can do this now while I'm talking. Where does the inhale end? And where does the exhale begin? And when the exhale is over, what makes the inhale occur? And exactly when does the inhale begin? And does the exhale have various parts to it, or is it the same all the way through?

[15:05]

Personally, I've never been able to answer any of those questions clearly. Or maybe I can answer it one way at one time and another way at another time. And it's never boring. And I think this is one way, anyway, of saying what is meant by emptiness. And this is why the practice of following your breath, or being mindful of your breath, is so wonderful and inexhaustible, because it is the practice of being with emptiness, the void. Each breath is emptiness, and each breath is appropriate. Appropriate meaning like appropriate, or proper, or the Latin word, it's propra, P-R-O, P-R-E, meaning to own, to own, or to fit, or just right.

[16:22]

So this is, or another way, in Buddhist language, tatha, tathagata, just so, just come, just thus. Each breath is like that. And so is each moment of our life and each thing we see and each thing we do. There's nothing extra. It's just exactly right. It just fits. So I think if you penetrate your breath in a sasheen or in any period of zazen, there's that feeling, you know, I don't need anything extra and I don't need to go anywhere or be anybody special. This breath is just right. Just what I need right now. And it's only my breath. Only this person, this body now is breathing this breath. And there's nothing extra required from anybody else. Which is to say, you know, I am Buddha. You are Buddha. And this is not, this is a wonderful idea and also a fact of your experience when you become involved in your breath.

[17:31]

In zazen periods, we devote ourselves wholly to our practice." I think in these sentences, particularly here, he's stressing, in some sense, zazen is a special activity. In our way, you know, eight kinroshis from a different lineage. than the way we practice, and stresses zazen a little bit differently. And I think it's, for me, it's been quite refreshing to feel the way this approach is, because often our way is more regular. Zazen is not so different from anything else, and no special effort, no attainment. One minute of zazen is Buddha, whenever we sit, we are enlightened. And he's stressing a little bit more on the side of, well, zazen is a technique, or zazen is a means of cultivating something other than zazen.

[18:39]

So that's a little bit different from the way Suzuki Roshi stressed, or we stress, or Mel stresses. So it's good to remember that when we're doing zazen, let's focus on doing zazen. When our mind wanders, let's return to our breathing. And let's not get too involved in our thoughts that are going every which way, even though our thoughts themselves, each thought is Buddha. Still, let's rein ourselves in a little bit. So let's be wholly devoted to our practice, our specific practice of zazen when we're doing zazen. In this crystal clear situation, we encounter our self-centered delusions in their most obtrusive form, not diluted by the usual conditions of life. That's not diluted, D-E-L-U-D-E-D, that's diluted, D-I-L-U-T-E-D means.

[19:42]

So, again, zazen is a special situation, and it's really clear, you know, when you confront your delusions in zazen, It's all you. You can't blame it on me. It's not my fault if you see, if you have a thought or get involved in anger or confusion. It's not as, what he means when he says undiluted by ordinary life, he means if you encounter a situation in life, it could be somebody else's fault, or you could think, well, it's their fault, or it's only because I didn't have the advantages of you know, high birth, or just because I don't have enough money, or it's only because my car broke down that I'm late, and so on, you know. So there are many complicated causes that come into play in ordinary situations. One of which, one of the causes being, you know, your own deluded mind.

[20:45]

But it's only one of the causes that go in to make up any moment of time. In zazen, it's a pretty clear situation. whatever happens in Zazen is yours. You're responsible for it, you're responsible for the creation of it, and you're responsible for taking care of it, and you're responsible for it as it goes away. So you'll get to see pretty much your own stuff in Zazen. If you're an angry person, you'll really see that anger come up in Zazen in a really clear way. If you're a distracted person, you'll see distraction quite a bit in zazen. So zazen is a way of cutting out the complications. It's like Thoreau says, I want to cut life down to its essentials, force it into a corner so I can look at it. So he went to Walden Pond. So we can just go to our cushion with the same feeling.

[21:53]

In that situation we'll find out what our problems are, and we'll see and confront our particular delusions and distractions. By returning to our practice whenever these delusions arise, we train ourselves in choosing what is fundamentally appropriate, and we loosen the grip that delusions have over us. So, our basic technique is to return to our breath. When we encounter our delusions, and this is the really radical thing, I think, about Zen, or about Buddhism, This is where it's radically different from other ways of working on yourself.

[22:57]

Because in a way it's like saying, well, when your problems come up, ignore them. The way to solve your problems is when they come up, ignore them. Which is to say, if you're sitting in zazen and you have the thought, my God, I really feel as though I've been wrong in the way I've related to my wife, husband, And that's a problem. Our recommendation, the Buddhist recommendation, is drop that thought and please return to your breath. Don't think about that now. Return to your breath. So, you know, turn right in order to go left, something like that. The best way to work on that problem that you've seen, or the problem that you have about that you're not relating to your husband or wife properly, is to follow your breath. Right now, ignore it and follow your breath. And I think, I know I have a very strong tendency, and I think most of us do, that when this kind of thing comes up, you want to just roll up your sleeves and get right into it.

[24:05]

Aha! Let's hit that, you know, that's really it. I'll figure out a way to get around that, you know. But we say no. Just look at your breath. The way to tackle that problem is just look at your breath. What does your breath have to do with it? It doesn't have anything to do with it. I follow my breath, that's, I get into navel gazing, I'm never gonna solve this problem. Never gonna stop imperialism in South America, Central America, if I'm sitting here looking at my breath. Does that have to do with it? But, no, that has, maybe it doesn't, but our way is, let's look at our breath right now. While we're in zazen, you know, we decided, we made a commitment to ourselves, we're going to do this period of zazen, and right now just look at your breath. And the point is that, the secret is that, as I was saying earlier, if we can train ourselves in this way, it's a kind of mental, physical, psychophysical culture that we're training ourselves to return to our breath, to return to our

[25:17]

dumb and fundamental mindless pursuit, whether it's a koan or a breath or whatever our practice may be, dropping our problems, dropping all the concerns of the world and returning to our breath. In doing this we train ourselves, and we train ourselves so that the grip that our delusions have on us is loosened. delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to not be connected to them. I vow to have delusions exist in me and everywhere in this world. I vow not to be in the grip of those delusions. I vow to let them float and not be too reined in by those delusions. I've found over and over again that in any difficult situation, interpersonal or political or whatever, when all sides of the coin, all sides of the question, I mean, all sides of the question are in the grip of their delusions and everybody will be deluded.

[26:29]

Everybody will be deluded. When all sides are in the grip of that delusion or have a tight rein or string connecting them to that delusion and they're just holding on and being pulled by that delusion, a solution is impossible. solution is impossible. A solution may arise, a temporary solution may arise. The revolution may be more powerful than the fascist government, or the fascist government may be more powerful than the revolution, but that situation will clarify itself a little while and then the next thing will occur, the next problem will come up. It's only when we are not under the grip of our delusions, when someone in the situation is not too much under the thumb of their idiocy, that any clarity is possible. And the same with our personal lives. It's only when our delusions are floating, and we're floating, and we're not too connected to our delusions, that we can get anywhere. And the only way to affect that is return to your breath.

[27:30]

The dumbest thing in the world. It's the most simple-minded technique. And going completely against the grain of your understanding of causality. You know, please turn right to get left. Don't turn left. If you turn left, you won't get there. Turn right, you'll get to be left. So this to me, I think, is the most, I find that basically, I mean, an extreme way of saying it is that, you know, a great percentage, a great part of the great teachings of Buddhism, of the masters and so on, is really bunk. It's really nonsense, you know. You don't need to think about it. It doesn't really matter much. This is the most fundamental pursuit, and working on our conduct and not being pushed around by our delusions is what it's all about. And anything that is otherwise said is about that. And insofar as you can't see that it's about that, ignore it. Sometime you'll see that it's about that, and if it's not about that, maybe it's wrong.

[28:33]

Maybe the sutra doesn't make any sense. Maybe the sutra is a little bit So, this is a kind of yogic practice, but it's a yogic practice that interpenetrates with our conduct and what we do and how we lead our lives. So it's a kind of a yogic practice that basically is ethical, at bottom, is ethical. And there's a lot about the whole science and mechanics of samadhi practice and zazen practice that doesn't have so much to do with ethics or conduct. And that's interesting too. Maybe that's all stuck in there to help us, those of us who are get bored, to keep us interested or something.

[29:39]

Quite fascinating, like any art form. But the yogic practice of conduct is much more difficult, and requires much more maturity, and is the real practice. So I want to offer you a small poem and then after that we can talk about what I've just been presenting or about anything else. By the beautiful sea, people all have bodies coarser and denser longing we would also be happy without bodies. What if we could make our own bodies?

[30:43]

What sorts of bodies would we make? It would be unfortunate. Think of skulls, dark rooms, concealed moons. Losing someone you love may be harder than dying. Dying may not be difficult. No one does it. Can it be our fate to live a single summer's day in the shadow of a tall tree at the edge of the world, a sea? So, if anybody wants to ask questions or make comments or help elucidate anything, please. It's just stuck in my mind for seven years.

[32:11]

Which was, at that point, you were accompanying your own practice. And you said that daily practice, or perhaps conduct, practice conduct, and resulting practice were becoming merged. And when you said that, my first So, I don't know that I remember that when I find my zazen. On the other hand, I'm also worried about the problem of those two being so different.

[33:34]

Such that, for instance, in the Sashi, getting thoroughly into one's breath, my zazen coming down a couple of notches. And I worry when there's too much difference. Yeah, well that's a really good point. And I think there are, as you say, there are distinctly difficulties with this practice of samadhi.

[34:42]

You know, one becomes blissed out or spaced out or attached to it and so on, on the one hand. On the other hand, there's a difficulty with, a lot of times when zazen becomes like daily life, it's another way of saying, well, I'm just sort of sailing along, you know, I'm sitting there and thinking and whatever. I get up every morning and sit, and I've been doing it for years, and it's just what I do. I'm not really challenging myself or really focusing in on zazen as a way of cultivating enlightenment and love. So it's a constant balancing act, and I'm so aware myself. One of my great insights, not necessarily as a practicer, but just as a person growing up, is to notice that everything is constantly falling apart. You know, like I used to get really frustrated. Boy, by the time I could finish brushing my teeth and washing my face and cleaning the floor and washing the dishes and cooking the meal and all those things, just maintenance stuff, there's no time left to do, what, I don't know, the important stuff or whatever.

[35:47]

There's no time left. So, you know, and then if you decide, well, you know, my body's in a ruin. I'm going to have to jog and so forth, you know. then pretty soon you'll say, well, but I haven't been reading enough and my mind is a big, you know, I'm a dullwit, you know, because I've been jogging all this time. So I'll read more and now I'm jogging and I'm reading. Oh God, my sex life is in a ruin because I'm not meeting anybody because I'm jogging and I'm reading and I don't have a chance to hang around with people and I'm becoming a real, so that, you know, you're always balancing this. I mean, I really think that that's, I find every day I'm figuring out, it's like a battleground, you know, how am I going to, make sure that the dishes are washed and the children are taken care of, and at the same time do this, and then I go too far in that way, and then I have to go a little bit over this way. And I'm always balancing it. I'm always, you know, every day I have to figure out, now let's see, what am I going to leave undone today? And I've left all that, I've left that stuff undone so long, I better do that, and then I'll leave this undone, and then I'll, you know.

[36:49]

And it's all, I think everybody's life is always like that. And it's the same with, you know, uzasana, you have to carefully, you know, calibrate you know, your zazen. And a lot of the stuff, as I read the Zen literature, a lot of that stuff is always, the way that, you know, the great teachers of the past get you to calibrate and to coordinate your life is by, when they see that you're getting involved in jogging too much, they'll, you know, when you're jogging, they'll knock you down. They'll trip you and fall down. Fonk! You know, why did he trip me? Why did he do that? You know, many stories about students, you know, trying to get in the front door and they close the door and your foot and they break your leg and you become enlightened, you know. There's, you know, there's a famous, I don't know who, Mr. Hoo-ha or Pooh-ba or somebody got enlightened that way. But, so that's a way of saying, you're going too far in this direction so I'm going to take that away from you because you have to come around and go this direction now. So, you know, please sit 20 hours a day, and then you sit 20 hours a day.

[37:54]

Please don't come to Zazen this week. I would like you to work on, you know, we need to sand the floor in the kitchen, you know, please do that. So you're always, this is what a lot of that stuff amounts, is amounting to is, you know, don't get too far out in any, in any given direction. So there's no answer, you know, there's no formula. You know, zazen is good this way but not good that way. It's like, it's always different. And so, the hardest thing, though, I think is, and I found with my practice and in our way, we have a tendency, I think, and I have a tendency to get stale on zazen. And I always have to come up with clever new ways of invigorating myself to do zazen and to concentrate on zazen. and always start at the beginning all the time. Take up a problem, or fix yourself on something, or give yourself an exercise, or maybe you're lucky enough to have someone you're working with who can give you an exercise to help you jar yourself loose, because we're all going toward dullness and getting stuckness, right?

[38:56]

That's our natural... If you throw something, it goes pretty good for a while, then it falls down, right? That's the law of gravity, or whatever it is, physical law. It's the same with your Zen practice. So you'll throw something up in your practice and it'll go good for a while and then it won't wind down. So in the Zendo, you know, why we eat in the Zendo, and why we maybe have a work period, a Soju period after Zazen, or a work period during a Sashin, is because we want to put those things together, daily life or activity and zazen, put those things together. And I don't know, Pat, you may have a taste for the higher realms of meditated realms or something. I don't know, maybe you do, and so maybe it's harder for you, maybe you get involved in that stuff and sort of can't focus in on

[40:01]

activity. Some people can't enter those realms. Some people sit on the cushion for ten or eleven kalpas and can't ever concentrate. So they have some other kind of problem. Everybody has a different tendency and for each disease there's a different medicine. And for each person there's a different disease at different times. I know physically I'm often dealing with my physical setup here, and sometimes if I have a problem, to do an exercise to help my problem, it's great, that exercise really works, but the next week that same exercise makes it hurt more. So it's real subtle, you know, it's a real subtle, and then you have to, by following your breath and by sitting every day, or sushins, after sushin, and so on, you finally get to where you're pretty familiar with your stuff, physical stuff and your mental stuff.

[41:04]

You're really pretty familiar with it, and you really, and you also have enough space in your life that you can notice right away when it's starting to go off, and in which direction it's going off, and then you pull it back. And if you let, you know, go a little bit and get too far off, you'll be wonk, you know, you'll get real off in a certain way. And then you can only hope that something will happen. Either somebody will hit you over the head and say, you know, wait a minute, you are really out there. You may be, you know, a great enlightened monk, but you are really out there. You better go up here and do this. Either somebody will either say that to you, if they're smart enough to just be able to say that, then you're lucky. If they're just being hurt by you, or just being upset by you because of the way you're off, and they just say, you know, I'm freaking out, and I'm not gonna, I just can't bear this, then it's harder, but it has the same effect. So you may, if you can't notice it yourself, something will inevitably stop you, right?

[42:06]

And if you drink too much, it'll get you in the end, right? Even if you don't stop yourself, you'll stop and eventually enter nirvana. by way of death or something eventually, you know, and rebirth rather than stopping drinking in this life. So, I mean, ultimately it's all right. It'll all work itself out in the end, but if we practice it, it can be a little bit smoother and a little bit more beneficial to ourselves and other people. I used to live here, you know. I didn't say that. I used to... an old-time student at Mills. 1970-something, 70 to... maybe 71 to 76, I was around here. Pat was here, and Ron was here, and Al, and lots of others. Familiar faces here. So that's how come I get to come here and mouth off, even though I'm a beginner.

[43:09]

The situation where you're in an outside activity and you're meeting with people and you can tell that everybody is hanging on pretty vigorously to their deluded position and that probably that consciousness is shared, but do you have any Can you say anything about that and how it's possible to use that, move out of it, to work with it? You mean if you're one of the people who is stuck on your own? Well, this practice I'm talking about in zazen, following the breath, is basically subheading number one under the practice of mindful awareness, traditional Buddhist practice of mindful awareness.

[44:33]

And practice number one is mindful awareness of the body, and mindful awareness of the body is subdivided into, number one, others, but number one, mindfulness of the breath. So in a situation like you described, mindfulness of the breath may not be so helpful, but mindfulness is helpful. And mindfulness practice involves just being aware of what is happening. It does not involve solving anything. It's another way of saying mindfulness is bare attention. In other words, you are attentive to what's happening, but only barely. Just you notice it. You don't have to, you don't add anything to it. So I think it's an enormous advantage in a situation like that to know. We are all stuck on our delusions. I am stuck on my delusions. We are all making it worse. I am making it worse.

[45:36]

I think the advantage of knowing that is quite extensive and unknown to you. In other words, you don't know how much of an advantage that is, but it actually is. So, you know, once you notice that, you begin to notice things like, oh, now I said that to her because, you know, I feel this way. And boy, that had a bad effect. That really made it worse. And, you know, now I'm, because I'm so interested in this result that I feel is right and necessary,

[46:25]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ