Morning. Morning, good morning. Hi Bob. Morning. I haven't seen you so far this month. Just back from Nepal. So, today you see, 8th day of the 12th month. The December 8th. December is the 12th month. And actually that's what Rohatsu means. The 8th day of the 12th month. So in my first talk on Monday, I guess it was, I spoke about infinite time and being time. Nikon So this is like the 8th day of the 12th month, actually I think it's going to be Saturday, is the day that we commemorate Buddha's enlightenment.

[01:13]

But it also has the same meaning, the 8th day of the 12th month. So it sort of points to this question of infinite time and being time. So each period of Rohatsu is included in the totality, where a circle is made up of many discrete discontinuous points. It looks like something solid, but if you look closely at it, it's all a series of points. So the scene is like that. with each point being a period of zazen. Rohatsu also sounds like ro-has-tu. ro-has-tu. ro has o and au. and all.

[02:22]

Row. So it's... So Sheen is both awful and awesome at once. Row has to. So row is the activity of rowing. So row has to is a kind of Dogen-esque way of using language. And rowing is just rowing. Row has to. Who has to? Row has to. So the subject is in the activity. In the verb. So, just rowing. Or having to row to stay afloat. Just keep rowing. Just keep breathing. Now breathe and hang loose.

[03:33]

Whether the water is still or whether the water is choppy. Whether there are big waves or small waves, just keep breathing, keep rowing. Ro could also be the name of a woman. Actually, my sister's name is Roxanne. And my sister took care of me as a little boy, and we lost our mother for a few years. So, I want to transfer the merit of this practice to her as well. From Ro to Ra. And Alan yesterday mentioned a question of a song. Whether we have a song coming through, says she, and so guess which one I'm thinking about.

[04:36]

And, you know, another sister, Megan Collins, I think you all know who she is, she led us into singing this one once during a lecture. Would you like to sing it? yes okay so let's do let's use the divider to divide the room and so this side will start the left side my side will start the first we'll sing it and then this side will start when we end right how do we call that in around right and we'll do it four times And OK, so let's see if I get the right pitch. Yes, Jake? We have three groups for that one. Really? And a school teacher. OK. How would you organize that, Jake? The back. Oh, OK. Upperton, you and the upperton with Bob first.

[05:41]

Ron, lowerton, and chairs second. And then let's see. And also the lowerton again. So, the tans on the right is the third one, the middle and the chairs is the second one, and this side is the first one. Is that too confusing? No? No. OK. Coming after the first line? Yes. OK. Not yet. OK. Do you want to start the pitch, Alan? What do you mean by the first line? OK. You told us what we're going to sing yet. So I mean the phrase, right? It's row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Oh, right. So until we're done, or how is it done? You tell me. After gently down the stream, then the next one comes in. Huh? After the which one? No. Never end.

[06:44]

It's a group effort, like rohatsu. Yes, Jake? How many times are we doing it? Twice? I thought we could do, well, You've done it in school. Well, I mean, you have to go through the same time you're going through the song. So I want to do it one, two, three, four times. Is that too long? OK. Three times. Huh? Three times. Three. Yeah. OK. After gently down the stream, there's an excellent interest set. OK. Then we all get together after row, row, row. OK. OK. Good. OK. Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, lightly down the stream. Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream.

[07:45]

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Okay. So continuing with the talk in Rohatsu. So we're past the middle point now. It's Thursday. And working our way through Sashin, past the midpoint. And at this point, we may have realized that we have pain, but that we don't need to suffer.

[08:49]

So that's a very usual teaching for us, the distinction between pain and suffering. We may have bodily pain, but we don't have to respond to the bodily pain with mental suffering. So when we say cessation of suffering, we don't mean cessation of pain, we mean cessation of how the mind responds to pain. It's a little bit like recovering from a cold. It's not exactly pleasant, but it's not unpleasant either. And although the body aches, the mind is serene. It's a little bit like Ross or Ro has a cold and Raul has a Zendo. Is it one or is it two? It's also a little bit like growing old in time.

[09:56]

We may have aches and pains but the mind is clear and the mind is living in infinite time. So that's also the meaning of no old age and death. Of course, it would be ridiculous, and that's what most people understand Buddhism. They say, oh, that's ridiculous that he made this vow to end suffering and old age and death. Of course, it doesn't mean the cessation of any of those things. It just means the cessation of old age being a form of suffering. or death being a form of suffering. And in the sangha we have the wonderful example of men growing old and still looking young. It's another example of infinite time and being time. John Mogi, for example, and Richard Haseley, and Sojin himself.

[11:05]

I told Jonah, I hope I look like him when I'm 70. And he reminds me a little bit of Suzuki Roshi. And I'm giving him a compliment, but also a problem. And Suzuki Roshi began practicing when he was 12 years old. It's actually pre-puberal. And by the time he died, at 67, he had practiced for 55 years. So we have to live a lot longer to practice for as long as he did. So if Sojin began practicing at age 37, 37 plus 55, which is the number of years Suzuki Roshi practiced, that would make it 92. It's a kind of kabbalah of numbers. So if the mind is not clear, at least it has the potential for being clear.

[12:19]

Or the clarity is right there in the confusion. Confusion means with fusion, with oneness. So right there in the confusion, there's clarity, even though it doesn't look like clarity. And if the mind is muddy, we just accept the muddy waters of the mind, without being proud of being clear, or without being proud of not being clear. Sometimes people say, well, yeah, we speak about clarity, clarity, clarity, shmarity, but, you know, my mind is not clear, my mind is muddy, and there. And so, muddy or clear, either way, it's the same reality. So we're all a little bit like a bit of a frog and a prince.

[13:24]

The frog that turns into a prince means because both the prince is a frog and the frog is a prince. Otherwise, they couldn't transform into one another. So that's speaking of a frog and rowing down the river. The frog was a favorite being of Suzuki Roshi. And today I'm going to tell you a little creation story. Sure. You've heard of Kermit the Frog? Well, today I give you Nikon the Cosmic Frog. We'll see how that goes. So once there was a frog, Nikon, by the way, means infinite time. Once there was a frog by the name of Nikon, and he just sat there patiently in his place. But even though everything was included in his mind, he eventually became very lonely.

[14:30]

Until this loneliness became painful, and he wanted some interaction. So out of his forehead, a sun disk appeared in front of him. And then the sun disk became a black hole. surrounded by a circle double helix of many moving and shining particles of light. And then inside the hole, water appeared. And then Nikon, or Nikon, the frog, jumped into the water. Plop. And lived or died happily ever after. So that was a children's story, sort of. So that's kind of an introduction to reading to you from Polishing a Time, which is Suzuki Roshi's fascicle where he talks about the frog, his lecture where he talks about the frog in Senmai Beginner's Mind.

[15:46]

And he says, I often talk to you about a frog. And each time, everybody laughs. But a frog is very interesting. He sits like us, too, you know. But he does not think that he's doing anything so special. When you go to a zendo and sit, you may think you're doing something, some special thing. A frog also sits like us, but he has no idea of zazen. Watch him. If something annoys him, he will make a face. If something comes along to eat, he will snap it up and eat. And he eats, sitting. Actually, that is our zazen. Not anything, not any special thing. So this teaching is a commentary on the story of Vasu and Nangaku.

[17:08]

Nothing special. Zazen is nothing special. It's just sitting like a frog. Or Dogon would say Zazen is like a stone pressing on grass. That's it. But don't think that a stone pressing on grass is the way we'd ordinarily look at a stone pressing on grass. Because when Dogen is looking, Dogen or Sojin or Suzuki Roshi, are looking at a stone pressing on grass, what do they see? So the story of Baso and Nangaku, Nangaku was the teacher and Baso was the student. We all know it, but I'll just remind you. So Baso was the student and he was sitting and Nangaku comes in and finds him sitting and says, well, what are you doing?

[18:15]

And he says, well, I'm trying to become a Buddha. And so Nangaku starts polishing a tile. So then Vāsāva asked him, what are you doing? He says, well, trying to sit Sāsana to become a Buddha is like me... No, he says, I'm polishing a tile, what are you doing? I'm making a mirror. I'm trying to make a mirror. So he says, well, how can you make a mirror out of polishing a tile? Then he says, well, how can you become a Buddha by sitting Sāsana? So we don't sit to try to become something or someone special. Try to become someone or something special.

[19:17]

We already are Buddha and the time is already an infinite mirror. So it doesn't have to be a clear mirror. There's an infinite mirror and there's a clear mirror. Clear mirror is what usually we think of as a mirror that we use to comb ourselves or look ourselves in the mirror. But actually the infinite mirror is everything is a mirror. So why do you need to polish it to turn it into a mirror when the polish is already a mirror? So that's the way that Dogon understands that story. Actually, it's not a ridiculous act to polish the tile to become a mirror, because the tile actually is a mirror. It's not a clear mirror, what we think a mirror is. It's an infinite mirror. So Buddha is not what we ordinarily think Buddha is.

[20:26]

So that's why we think we're trying to become Buddhists, trying to become someone special, something different than who we already are. So the infinite mirror is already there in who we are as ourselves. So the infinite mirror doesn't have to be a clear mirror. It can be a confused mirror. Or a thinking mirror. So often people struggle with, well, this koan of think not thinking, which is a great koan. You know, people understand that Zazen is about stopping the cessation of thinking, sort of like cessation of causality of karma, and yet thinking never stops. So there's a rushing stream, and we're kind of rowing the boat on the rushing stream and yet beneath the rushing stream there's a still pool or the other way around there's a still pool and in the bottom of the pool there's a rushing stream think not thinking

[21:58]

So, not thinking can appear as thinking, and thinking can appear as not thinking. Two sides. Clear, not clear. Clear mirror, infinite mirror. So, he says, to continue, if we are like a frog, we are always ourselves. but even a frog sometimes loses himself but even a frog sometimes loses himself and he makes a sour face and if something comes along he will snap at it and eat it and this is interesting because the way that Sojin tells his story is that the frog is sitting there and then if an insect comes by The frog grabs it and then puts it in his mouth.

[23:08]

And then if he likes it, he swallows it. And if he doesn't, he spits it out. So Sojin adds this piece of discrimination to the story, which in Suzuki Roshi's story, at least in this place where he's telling the story, he doesn't add that. Sojin does. But he adds the discrimination of the frog as something natural. This discriminating between like and dislike, and the grasping and grabbing at things. Sukirosh is putting it as a problem. He doesn't like it. The frog is disturbed. Is it a problem or isn't it a problem? Is it a clear mirror or is it an obscure mirror? So, and of course we think of discrimination as a problem having preferences, likes and dislikes.

[24:14]

And just to add a little, leave a little room for the psychologists and the psychoanalysts in me here. you know Freud considered the example of the frog because he was interested in frogs as well although he dissected them in his early medical career because at that time they're at you know the turn of the century they're really studying reflexes through studying the reflexes of the frog and from there to understand the reflexes of the mind so it's kind of similar That's dissection, not dissecting, but it's kind of using it as a metaphor for a kind of primeval mind. And so the frog was a primeval source of judgment and distinction between the inside and the outside. Affirmation and negation, like and dislike. And so what I like is inside.

[25:18]

and get swallowed, or what I like gets swallowed and becomes part of you inside. And what I don't like gets spit out and becomes outside. And then we think it's outside of us. What we don't like, it's other. But big mind includes the other. So the outside, what we spit out, what we don't like, is also part of us. So we have to include it. So in that way, we don't discriminate. like the frog. We don't spit it out. Because there's no out to spit it to. Because it would be like spitting it ourselves. So we have to become bigger to include both what we like and what we don't like. Yes and no. Mu. Affirmation. Negation. What is it? Yes or no? Inside or outside? And sometimes in the Pali Sutras, the Buddha speaks of the Dharma in that way as, when it's cold, you warm up.

[26:23]

So if you don't like being cold, just put some clothes on. And when it's hot, you take your clothes off, or you take your layers off. Which is similar to the Zen story, when hungry, eat. When sleepy, sleep. In Sashin, actually, we don't get enough time to be hungry because we're always being fed. So we don't have to wait for an insect to come by because the server pretty soon comes by and serve us food. And we don't have to grab it because the servers will give it to us. Isn't that wonderful? And there's not enough time to get hungry because it feels like we're eating all day. Even though we're sitting all day, we're actually fed quite well and in a great spirit of practice. And we have people in the kitchen doing their practice in the kitchen.

[27:31]

There's nothing like kitchen practice to realize the non-duality of zazen and ordinary activity. stillness in motion. Sometimes when we start sitting, we're craving for this special state of zazen. And we think, oh no, I don't want to be in the kitchen. I want to be in the zendo, sitting. It's that special. Cooking, you know, I do that all the time. You know, when I need to come to a zen center to cook. But we don't realize what cooking is. Cooking as zazen. Unless we have this practice of zazen. So, but this warming up when you're cold and taking your clothes off when you're, or sleeping when you're tired. Often, I mean sometimes when we're tired we have to sleep, but often in Sashin we're sleepy, right?

[28:38]

And in fact some of you are sleeping right now. Is there a difference between my speaking and your sleeping? Or am I inducing your sleep with my words? Is it a lullaby? Or is it boring as hell? Is there a difference between boring and a lullaby? Is it a hypnotic, inductive trance? When you speak, with kind of a certain tone, kind of induced a certain kind of brain wave which is compatible with sleep. So zazen induces that brain wave that's compatible with sleep, so you get sleepy. So, you know, somebody would yell at you, or hit you, or say, wake up! And you say, what? Well, this sleep can be your waking up.

[29:46]

I'm already waking up. I'm sleeping. Do you understand? You know, there's a story of Rinzai, you know, when he's sleeping in the zendo. And the head monk is sitting upright. You've heard the story. And so Rinzai's teacher comes into the zendo, and the head monk is sitting straight up in a real straight posture. And Rinzai's lying down on the on the side of the town, snoring away. And Rinzai's teacher comes and hits the head monk and says, you should practice more like that guy over there. So when we're sleeping, we're not really sleeping. What are we doing? And when we're awake, do we mean, you know, what kind of alertness do we mean?

[30:47]

Like the other day I was, you know, first or second day I was sitting and focusing on breathing. And you know, the more you focus on breathing, the more concentrated you are on the breath, the more relaxed you become, the more loose you become, and then the more sleepy, if you're tired, the more sleepy you can become. And so then you focus more on your breath to wake yourself up, but the more you focus on your breath, the more sleepy you become. So then, and I said, well, what should I do? So then I started thinking of one or two of my old And then I got really awake. So what kind of alertness is that? So then I was awake.

[31:54]

Nothing too sexy in any case. But underneath the being alert or being sleepy is the stream of the infinite mirror. Underneath the stream of thinking or non-thinking, there's the stream or the infinite mirror. You know, also, you know, with regards to heat, for example, priests have a problem because in the summer we still have to wear these layers of robe. So you would think, well, you know, when you're hot, just take your layers off. Well, you can't. And, I mean, sometimes you can wear the Roxas with your two layers of kimonos, but Sojin doesn't like that too much.

[32:59]

It kind of frowns on it. You have to wear your okesa. So then you have three layers. And so then zazen becomes sweat lodge practice, really. So that's kind of non-discriminating. So there we have the two teachings, right, of the Buddha. So when you're cold, warm up. When you're hot, you know, take some layers off. The other teaching is, you know, when you're hot and you got your layers on, just sweat. Don't take them off. And sometimes you hear one teaching and sometimes you hear the other teaching. And then they'll deny. They tell you one thing one day and the other thing the other day. Why did you say this on one day and why did you say this on the other day? And then sometimes, you know, I didn't know whether when Sojin did that, I didn't know whether it was a teaching or not, or whether he remembered he had told me the opposite thing the day before.

[34:07]

And in a way it doesn't matter whether it's deliberate or it's unconscious. Because it's the stream, the inside and the outside, the yes and the no. Sometimes it's yes, sometimes it's no. Sometimes we discriminate, sometimes we don't discriminate. Sometimes we think, sometimes we don't think. Sometimes we're clear, sometimes we're confused. That's the frog. The cosmic frog. And this is what Dogen calls the teaching of self-hindrance. The teaching of self-hindrance. Usually, again, in the Pali Sutras, in the Theravada teaching, hindrance is a problem, although it turns everything on its head, just to keep us on our toes and non-dualistic.

[35:11]

So the teaching is one of self-hindrance. What looks like hindrance is not really a hindrance. So, this is one, this illuminated the question for me, why did Buddha call his son Hindrance, for God's sake? Why would you do that to your own kid? Hey, Hindrance! So, Hindrance for him, because he was trying to get enlightened, or he was trying to be spiritual, and this kid was getting on his way. So we create our own problems. Because without problems we can't grow, we can't live. The species will die. So we have to procreate. We create our own problems. But without the problem there wouldn't be anything happening.

[36:13]

There would be no universe. The frog would be Lonely. Nikon would be lonely. So there has to be a problem for there to be something happening. So, that's what we do in Rahatsu. We sit in this restricted, right? I mean, think of it. You're crossing your legs. Say, well, body is born of cause and effect. We create our own bodies. You can say, well, who made this body for me? Who thought of putting the toes where they go and the foot where it goes, the leg where it goes, the knees where it goes? I already have this body. It already comes to me as if there. Right? Yet, we've created it. So, if you think about the theory of evolution, and we think about species being,

[37:18]

is a concept of Darwin and Marx actually species being as a species we created over a long period of time we created our own body and we may have evolved from a frog actually so in that sense we created the body the way it is and it has certain functions and certain limitations so when we take this restricted position where this crossing our legs for long periods of time is going to hurt Because it's not designed to do that. Yet, this hindrance, or this problem, brings out this great realization. So right in the causality, the cause and effect, it hurts because of cause and effect. Muscles hurt. because of cause and effect it hurts yet within the cause and effect we find the what has no cause the acausal or the unconditioned so we take this position to realize that so we take this restricted position yet it's also very free very freeing posture and we do it for seven days

[38:45]

And we create a big problem for ourselves. A nice big problem. So I will let Suzuki Roshi have the last word. What time is it Ron? 5 Okay, we have a few minutes for questions and discussion. Okay. So Suzuki Roshi says, So I think a frog is always addressing himself. I think you should do that also. Even in Zazen, you will lose yourself. When you become sleepy, or when your mind starts to wonder about, you lose yourself. When your legs become painful, why are my legs so painful? You lose yourself. Because you lose yourself, your problem will be a problem for you. If you don't lose yourself, then even though you have difficulty, there's actually no problem whatsoever.

[39:47]

You just sit in the midst of the problem. When you are part of the problem, or when the problem is a part of you, there is no problem. Because you are the problem itself. The problem is you yourself. If this is so, there is no problem. You read that, it's a wonderful line. You just sit in the midst of the problem, when you are part of the problem, but when the problem is part of you, there is no problem. Because you are the problem itself. The problem is you, yourself. If this is so, there is no problem. Thank you very much. Yes, Peter? So is this the problem you were asking about? memorial service? Oh, yes. So the problem... So what's with the frog?

[40:50]

The frog is just sitting there and then gets lonely. It wants something other rather than oneness. Right. But then he brings something out of himself to get things going. So it creates duality. Right. And then it returns to something else. Then it becomes part of that that he created. Yes, Eric? Yes. So, what came to me when you were talking about this sort of river or stream of mirror, what was it termed? Mirror stream? Infinite mirror? So I was just wondering, like it came to me, I can understand, for me it resonates in a sort of poetical way, right? It's like, cool, there's this sort of thing that's constant below it all, below it all potentially.

[41:54]

So my question is like, to myself, when you said that, it's like, why do I need that? Why do I really need that? How does that serve me and my practice by knowing that? As opposed to sort of grasping onto the last, you know, Suzuki Roshi's words of just, realizing that I'm the problem, without needing this greater truth, or this... Do you know what I'm asking? Well, it's like saying, well, if all we have is just cause and condition, just problems, what do we need the unconditioned for? Right. If you don't have the unconditioned, you don't realize how the hindrance is your liberation. Without the uncondition, you just have suffering. You don't have release from suffering. When you have release from suffering, you're not free from causing conditions, you still have pain, but you don't have suffering.

[42:59]

That's why you need the infinite mirror. I have a feeling that there was somehow, that there was a choice that this infinite, this condition, infinite condition existed. It seems to me there's no choice. This is the situation we're in. Respectless of God. We're stuck, but we have the conditions that we have. But we also have to make choices. At every turn, you have to decide, are you going to go left or right? Are you going to sit the sheen or are you not going to sit the sheen? Are you going to focus on your breathing or not focus on your breathing? And the underneath, the infinite stream that's underneath is there.

[44:08]

Whichever way you go, there it is. But you still have to choose. We're making the choices. Yeah, I'm in total agreement with what you said. I guess I'm just thinking about the idea that we're in the universe. We have no choice. We're here. Yes. Yet we're here, but what is this? And where do we come from? Related to Eric's question, how much do we need the idea of the infinite mirror? Idea is not a thought, the way you're thinking.

[45:13]

Idea is not a thought? No, it's just reality. It's just the tile. Is the tile an idea? Well, if you say it, if you say the word, it becomes an idea. Yeah, otherwise what is it? If you just are holding a tile to me? Yeah, what is the tile? Well? You can't say, can you? It depends how you're asking that question. The mind is not the thinking mind. The mind is not the thinking mind. Which mind? When you say it's an idea, you're creating a duality between the thinking mind and big mind. Right. But the thinking mind also includes big mind. I understand that. So how much do we need the idea? You could just dwell on the idea.

[46:19]

Would that be enough? How much do we need Zazen instead of your ordinary life? We're already enlightened. Why do you need to do Zazen? Because we don't realize because we clog up our understanding. Right. So Satsang is like the infinite mirror is a tool to help you unclog your understanding about what it is in front of you and who you are at that moment. It's not an idea. It's a skill for me that Dogen is using. It's a metaphor that Dogen is using to help you wake up to what is before you.

[47:20]

The metaphor being the infinite mirror. Yes. I understand that. So why do we need a metaphor? Why do we need Daoguen's teaching? Why do we need Suzuki Roshi's teaching? These are all ideas. I know, but I'm not saying that they're bad. I'm just saying there's a relation between an idea and direct experience. There's a difference. Direct experience is non-thinking, but direct experience can also be thinking. You can have direct experience of thinking, and you can have direct experience of non-thinking. So, what is that? Do you want to say something? Yeah, I just want to clarify what you're talking about, thinking and idea. I get the sense that you're really talking about a concept, wholly to a concept, which is different than thinking.

[48:27]

So I'm kind of hearing two different things. That's a good point. Yeah, thinking is more of an active, progressive process. An idea is a concept that has an image in the picture. Yeah, so you think beginner's mind is a concept? It depends how you present it. It can be. It doesn't have to be. It's how you live it. Whether you live the experience of it or whether you're thinking about it in your mind. Right. Yeah, so the infinite mirror is not you thinking this is a tile and you have the idea of an infinite mirror. So what is the experience of the tile? And Dogen is calling that infinite mirror. But you don't have to be thinking of an infinite mirror. I can't keep up with you. I mean, if you think about Dogon all the time, it becomes an obsession, it's a hindrance. That's not what it's intending.

[49:30]

Yes, Bob? So you asked whether we need that idea of the metaphor. I know we need it, but how much? Well, my question is, is need, your need, an idea? Well, the way I'm describing it now is an idea. Yes? I'll just throw one other thing in on this, and it's the issue, I was thinking when you first started talking about the frog of, you know, Gosananda's statement that we're constantly, through our senses, continually eating, we're devouring, stuff through sight, sound, and the mind, and thoughts, and that it sounds like what kind of going around with here is the tendency to reify, so that if you have a thought, an idea, a concept that it gets something you get kind of stuck with and you hold on to it, it's again seeing it as kind of like the finger pointing to the moon, that it can be useful or

[50:57]

There's a difference between the finger and the moon, but Zen teaching also says that the moon is also in the finger. So it's not two things. Not saying it's two things, but there's a difference between how we can use concepts to step beyond concepts, in a way, which is in a sense It's making these, you know, external, quote, realities, these things, and then holding on to them as if they're real. Right. So, but is the universe real or not? Why not? Yes, no. It's like, you know, does a dog have a good nature? Yes one time, no another time. Right.

[52:04]

So the same question applies to the universe, not just thinking. So that's why Non-thinking. It's not non-thinking or not thinking. Zen is not non-thinking. It's non-thinking. I think that's enough.

[52:28]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ