The Blue Mountain and the White Cloud

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back in the seventies
is married and settled at berkeley and fifty cents there are it's the location on light way study the subject the lights that are happy
i didn't get raised a family has chosen the they are you here and yeah a long time
psychology practice your county and school has a private practice continuing here in berkeley and for thirty years he working machine mental health
tending to the teaching of me
he's retired from the iraqis are years he said
earlier this year at mt
the house you know
daly city is very much like berkeley's etc except saturday to hall and so as having to flinching have here today practice things like friday morning evening and also on sunday
dump transmission from south jersey in some other side much much german
yes
thank you so much ross
i guess it's nice to be here again and without her friends
and
as a rosette up
i left in january thirteenth are we opened the i opened the blue mountains and domino savita
so i've been sitting there every day
since then
and
but it's very nice to be back here

so
i been the thought we haven't i offer like to on sunday
as i've been lecturing on as in my beginner's mind is appropriate given our school
fan to continue the tradition of such as teaching in he's always teaching about security and so ah
i've continued that to make sure the route is strong
and that
and then we have a i offer a seminar also i once a month and then are we study more the the more scholarly
traditions of buddhism
but for the sunday talk and just like year the saturday talk is focused more on practice and encouraging pupils practice so i've been focusing on that ah
my talks here over the years i've always haven't always been like that but that's what i'm doing now
so what i want to share
with you today is some extra excerpts from a farcical farcical on breathing
not because the focus is really a breathing but i mean is always breathing the focus but thousand for us and any life form to be alive
ah but you know suzuki roshi these talks are will put together by one of his students similar ah
i don't know how much how involved he was with the
transcribing of the of the talks himself i'm not sure if the timing of that
perhaps peter knows
but i know that that's going on now with surgeons toxin he students helping him
with that
so these talks are very informal you know there isn't a necessarily a logical sequence from paragraph to paragraph their kind of a collage of related themes are these fast that this classical in particular seems that way
but i it has the in this fast ago is where he talks about you you have to do something
you have to do something and he talks about blue mountain the the story of thousand story of the mountain and so surgeon told me or you you you have to do something
ah and encourage me to you know
to take flight and leave bcc and start blue mountain with his support in support of all of you and and housing as well
so because there's two things that were related to the blue mountain are in this talk that's why i chose it but it's called breathing they started talking about breathing but then he he goes on to talk about what we what we must do
what we must do and what we must not do
that's the way he's talking about good and bad
this fast ago so
he saying well good and bad
is that so important in the sense that it can get dualistic the more important to about it terms of what you must do as we prefer the good and what you shouldn't do as referring too bad so there's no good or bad is just what we do and what we don't do
yes your question
it's too loud

is that better
strong voice sorry i apologize for my voice
ah
yes good and bad
so bad is just what we don't do
it's no bad it's just what we don't do they are interesting way of
putting it
but you know be at the beginning he starts talking about breathing
when we inhale the air comes into the inner world when we exhale the air goes out to the outer world so it in a world out world it inside outside is swinging door
ah or another metaphor for that is i don't know if you know what a mobius strip is in physics
it's like a circle but if you cut a circle and then you turn it upside down and then you reunited then you could have an aunt walk on the surface of a mobius strip and it goes walks inside and then it goes outside so it's a it's a representation of a this
continuous going from the inside to the outside
breathing in
breathing out
and self it's like self another no self and no other
just reading
and the interaction
dynamic interaction
so if you say if he says if you think i breathed the i is extra there is no you to say i what we call eyes just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale it just moves that's all
but to be aware of the movement does not mean to be aware of your small self but rather have your universal nature buddha-nature the breathing points to are universal nature
ah something that we all share and we share the oxygen with our life and with all beings and with all people
all races all nationalities
all nations i that's the meeting of universal
activity
ah room in the in day in the jewish world people talk about june or salary
do never salaries that with you but the jew in front of universality so that's
universality within particularity
so it's not an abstract
if you don't like there's a there's a universalist or is it is that there's a american religion right it's called
so that granite grabs a little bit of everything and puts it all together and then is one thing but the meaning of universality and and rochas teaching is that the universality in the particularity
in this particular expression that we have which is in buddhism than we express our universal nature
and ah
and then if we're americans
ah
yeah america is the continent
but north america cause itself america
and south america sometimes complain about that you know why do you appropriate the name of the continent where south americans we don't say we're americans were something
ah
so that's that are characteristic of america is still appropriate
and so people complain about that
ah
so
so how will you maintain that balance between or universality and particularity
that's part of a dharma
how we express that in our attitude in our sense of self sense of other
in our relationships
but it's not like you can be universal outside of being an american
so if you're an american you express your universality as an american
your japanese you express your universality as japanese
and yet having said that this note the particularity is not something what is it
so maybe singularity is better than particularity because sometimes with particularity people get narrow with their definitions of identity
so how do we bring out the universality in any situation that wherein
that's an important teaching i think
especially nowadays you know what we have all this thing with the the squad
ah
and president telling them to go back home
so it's that whole question you know the american or not

what does it mean to be american
my sense of a means and i mean i'm i was born in chile and i was raised there
but my mother is nothing was she died she was north americans i'm always had us citizenship so i'm both
so you can
you have your pick they are how you can approach me
and as a foreigner or as a as a national citizen one am i one of you or not one of you who
ah
so my sense of the the the universality of america is that it's the the the place for the ingathering of all the nations
that's why you know i mean yes the united nations as an inspiration of john f kennedy
which expresses that kind of spirit for this country

although i've been told to go back home to in ah yes
by people by people
ah
by people you wouldn't think would say something like that you know
it doesn't always come from where you expected to come yes russ
south america
family
you

ah
ah yeah
i don't think that wasn't as sony a compliment than my friends gave me they are you know your gringo now you know that's kind of thing
and
ah
the national ballet
change
yes well i i i yes it's true i think when i was in that an american i was more extroverted and then when i came to the states i became more introverted and particularly since most of my life in the u s has been in as and world you know then also it's kind of
introverted some like as you go deeply into a meditation of those in you know it's ah we sit with our eyes opened precisely not to go into an in state
like the in the hinders said or hinduism goes into more into it in internal states different samadhi states and whatnot but we always keep our eyes open because it's always this non-duality this air circulating between the inside and the our
outside and we're offering a practice to or beings and our practice has impressed imperceptible
emphasis on the world
so we're always offering it you know to all beings
ah
yes so i change a little bit that way you know i became more introverted

so he says are you means to be aware of the universe in the form of you
and i mean to be aware of it in the form of by
so the universality expresses you universality expressed as i
that's the particularily in the universality so when you are completely you than then isn't that was so severe she says so we have to be completely ourselves not some kind of zen personality that we put on but then brings up our fundamental a sense
of who we are
and it's expressed in that way that separate from who we are

ah so then then he goes that he makes this this as switch to talk about so when you practice zazen there's no idea of time or space
you may say we started sitting at a quarter six in this room thus you have some idea of time
according six and some idea of space in this room actually what you're doing however is just sitting and being aware of the universal activity that is all
here there's no idea of time or space time and space or one you may say i must do something this afternoon but actually there is no this afternoon
we do things wanted to the other that's all there is no such time as this afternoon or one o'clock two o'clock at one o'clock you will eat your lunch to eat your lunch is itself on a o'clock so we could say we could call the hours by the activities
that we have instead of calling them by time we could just talk about successive activity one thing
to the next
and that's something that i have more time now cause i'm barney retired we still work part-time to have to support myself but
i have more time so during the day i i have times what i do you know what i do with the time or sometimes such as talk about that you know the priest was they get a day in and what do you do
ah the have all this time
and that
so you have you lost it also though is a free time but actually you know
well because we've been practising doing this practice for so long and six the shane so we know how to practice with time so we have to must use our time in a in a dharmic way how do we use our days how to use our twenty four hours
do the twenty four hours turn out to do we turn the twenty four hours
how does this twenty four hours turn out how do we turn the twenty four hours so just moment to moment when activity after the next
so that's kind of the life of a priest to the life of a monk
it is very structured in some way and an earlier in the other sense is completely open
i do a lot of cleaning you know amongst to cleaning you know in the monastery so i tried to keep keep the zen actually doesn't get so dirty
a
ah bottom
such as cleaning cleaning the house and you know cooking the meals and doing the dishes
it's all very satisfying
this just one complete
action you know one after the next and in the middle sometimes you get a little lost you know and then you bring yourself back to being an end to the activity that one has at that moment
so this is the candidate must do
but ah
and practice and sitting zazen you know every day six am six pm
so lot and ah
and i
so be doing it for but six seven months now
and then
so it feels like a little bit it's physical very physical
right like doing like running two hours a day
on your legs
ah pretty much because that's the amount of time you know between zazen and bowing and all that so you feel it in your legs
so i feel it more now during the day and i'd like to walk as exercise and i have a wonderful path near the mountain to walk
but i had to stop doing that good my legacy any to
sir
so then i realize that
doing all always sitting is a lot of physical
the muscles are doing a lot of work for us in also as five cigarettes as we have to be very
a compassionate and and them
appreciative of her legs
they hold us up
and they brought us to this continent away way from africa

so you know it's like an incision also we have to kick the schedule sometimes you know we have the beach said in the square sunlight
and so that kid is gonna squares anunoby our violated forty minutes ten minutes forty minutes you know meals cooking lab or on this which seems like very structured
and that's the here and now that's the the square here now is
every moment is just this moment and everything is contained in this moment
but every moment is scheduled
sometimes you will think our meditation the here and now it's more like the hippie here now and i'll just go with flow go with your feelings you don't go with what's happening and
partly we we go with that flow but they're different kinds of flow you know so we have to know i think mary was talking about that you know now which flowed ago
which stream you know to take
ah
cause you know it being spontaneous mean to to just go with your feelings because then you pushed around by the ties
so that the structure in a way is to to give us some says the freedom from our feelings and our impulses

because there are feelings and impulses are like diamonds in the rough carbons major car vendor carbon is time and in the rough
so we have to refine them and the structure is for that purpose
and will you have external structure is easier do it i can you come to the zendo there's external structure
when it when the structure depends entirely on your own motivation and whether you do it you don't do it that's a quarter
but once you've been trained you know for a long time with external structure then it's easier to have internal structure and you don't need so much the external prompts a to do the various things and practices
ah

okay so then he finishes this paragraph
we should live in this moment so when we said we concentrate on our breathing and we become a swinging door and we do something we should do something we must do which is how we refined our a heart and our mind is through the breath the spirit
so we breathe and when we breathe we fully in her breathing then the mine is quite light and empty
and then and then feelings and thoughts you know a comeback in you know some sense of a worry or anxiety or
a joy may arise and
we acknowledge then let it go and go back to the breathing keep refining purifying
our a mind
so this is sent practice in this practice is no confusion if you establish this kind of life you have no confusion whatsoever
okay so here he goes to the story of tosa
toes on a famous zen master set the blue mountain is the father of the white cloud
the white cloud is the son of the blue mountain
all day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other
as this poem the surgeon really liked he talked a lot about it over the years and is kind of we how we practice together you know in song practice we practiced together in this kind of intimate
relationship
it's not always harmonious
but it's intimate
and so
we depend on each other might we depend on the dhawan we depend on the doshi we depend on
the practitioners we depend on the sanga we depend on a teacher but we're not dependent on each other so it's that difference between depend as opposed to dependence
because interdependence can be positive and negative
nowadays we like to speak about especially after the teaching of a hand as interdependence as as a solution is up is that something good
ah
especially in relation to emptiness then into dependencies
a wholesome ah
reality but it can also be codependence
as we know it in the general culture there's there's codependence and being dependent as supposed to independent
so ah
and that's a very hot topic in a culture
about
whether this culture is about independence or about interdependence and what is the right relationship between interdependence in in independence
and suzuki roshi contrast it more independency
techno house is interdependency security said independency
stressing the the independent side which is not egotistical
i'm
because ah
our ability to
the nine egotistical form of independence is just emptiness
something that's not yet defined still emerging
so everybody has to find that expression for themselves how to manifest
emptiness as who they are
and then they are also interdependent with everything
that's an independence that
does it that facilitates inter dependence as opposed to
interfering with it
like being a there
hum
ah working alone as opposed to working with others and that's the whole it is our attention in buddhism between that i between the the path of layer of the ascetic solitary practice and the path of pride
addressing the sanga and that's the tension between the hinayana and mahayana but there's both things in both my an engineer
ah
does the white cloud is always the white cloud
the blue mountain is always the blue mountain so the father's the father the son is the sun the teachers the teacher the students students at the same or the mothers the mother the daughter the daughter
it's only instantiate at once
mother daughter and yet at the same time the mother is the daughter and daughters the mother
that's part of the
interdependent there's ways in which i could say that i am my father's father
but strictly speaking my father is the father and i am the son
no don't confuse them
so the same with a teacher teachers a teacher students still have sometimes the teachers or students sometimes systems and teach but don't think that that changes the first thing which is you know the the blue mountains the blue mountain the white cloud is the white cloud
odd
yes
we're talking about when you opened up at one o'clock will be doing whatever happens then and so why were truly independent when one o'clock arrived were able to take on whatever father or son or whatever role that we have and so i wanted to ask you order
to see you really gaining independence is really the capacity to be
like we all just to be kidding
when his kenyan time to be sitting and listening to you and it's listening time that's the kind of independence that i hear when i hear roshi speak
right yes but that's but that's a side of have a working together there's but there's another side also you have to find out things for yourself
right so buddha said when he died where was your last teaching be a lamp unto yourselves so everybody has to realize this lamp for themselves
but that eighty two o'clock
ah
gaze with are we independently going can help or are we dropping the myself
and finding freedom or independence become
right but if you if you look at the kenyan a line everybody's doing it a little bit differently
even though we're all doing killeen
so we're all finding out kinane for ourselves as a universal activity but it's singular to each person

so it's interesting this this question of the the blue mountain and the of cloud
well
i think chinese blue mountain is a way of referring to a father also so that's why it's though it's sort of up in portrays the father son relationship other
father daughter relationship of the mother son relationship or the mother daughter relationship and all possible combinations
and
anna surgeon who was pleased that i took the step
to open blue mountain
and ah
he felt like i was a returning like a prodigal son
after having been what in his line seem to be that i was
ah you know is that have a family professional life and
as a life as of scholarship and he felt like i needed to balance it
and and so been established now lucinda now he feels that's balanced
i'm
so he told me that was like the prodigal son
the prodigal son his arm
ha ha
ar a story has both christian and buddhist is in the lotus sutra and is the gospel according to look pretty similar slightly different the reason i mentioned this is because part of this a blue mountain
think for me was because i am building a an in-law for my younger son in the back of the property
ah tanda it's about to be done and he just a
she's not finished yet and his apartment is the lease is up so he moved in to my house until the in-laws ready
and so has been quite an interesting kind of journey you know so i feel with him kind of a similar feeling as we were kind of is a i mean a lot more strange you know and i wouldn't say i was a strange from sojourn at any point but
ah we were some ways trinity was kind of lost a little bit lost like the story of the prodigal son is i don't know if you you know the story in the
a gospel according to look
is the the sun is rebellious in you know doesn't want to do with the father says he should do and someone wants to do his own thing and ah but then you know doesn't do so well
and is poor and forsaken
we would say risk for homelessness
nowadays you know area
i'm
so
so i i have two sons and so the story of the by the look that the one in the gospel
so the the father sort of brings the know the sun comes back and says i'm sorry and you know so and so forth to others are a kind of reconciliation and so the the father gives him his inheritance
and ah the problem seems to be solved but then the other brother who had been a good son going to you know ah
it's like my father son and i use really work really hard
he got the the working from me for hello son didn't
and
so in the in the story of alexander the view was so well i've been doing you know really good i mean work i did everything you told me to do and i'm not getting anything the why is this guy you know who was a rebellious and did nothing good for nothing you know now you're you're taking him in
so the stories as well you know he's your brother and he we were gonna lose him
so ah
though it is there some some some residents there
so anyway so i decided with a that i was going to build a symbol for for gnome
and i keep him alive and safe
he that they'll never smokes a lot of weed but doesn't have any cod serious addictions like other people do her i've had friends with know kiss addicted to heroin in i don't know what else but
so he doesn't have that problem but anyway there's been a kind of reconciliation and he's attitude has shifted like hundred and eighty degrees
and he was living in an apartment
really raunchy poor place
and he didn't clean it means he has has a dog owner and a cat as to pets
so one day i just decided you what i can take this anymore i just went in and his bathroom much dislike
you wouldn't believe it with the two pets and everything
so i just went and just hunkered in and i just got on the floor and started cleaning and i just
left the bathroom spotless and after that his mind shifted and are my mind shifted i had to also
you know that i would get really angry with him with his kind of rebellious listen you know
bring up a lot of anger and so that he was angry and i was angry who were both angry in that went nowhere
so just go you have to do this and you how to do that you have to do this and you have to do that don't you know this
you know all that
to the site wasn't working
so ah
but the cleaning his bathroom was i couldn't believe how his mind just like this
as a kind of mystery
oh
so now is on his under
i took a risk you know surgeon wasn't to your issues when you there are you starting a new zendo you sure you want it you son yeah
as they well what else can i do you know because i i that was palomar or history was always split between you know are you a your father or your priest you know where you're going to take care of your a family or you going to leave your family and and focus on practice the less can have been calling for me and they grew up with them
and he used to come here and his mother would say or you can go to live he wasn't allowed to come to them zendo
but i would bring them sometimes you know but he felt bad because he felt torn so now we don't have that problem anymore so now where the family and zan on the same side
and as others pilot i think the healing that's taking place and so to be that's part of the story it seems like it's part of my story in spite of
my relation to my teacher and and a and my religion my son and my son's relationship to me and i don't know exactly what's gonna happen to let the outcomes gonna be you know but it doesn't matter you know i'm just starting forward and for in faith and knowing that what works this way
when somebody's coming at you with a lot of anger and virtuality and hatred
something has to turn inside of us and we go towards that but in peace
and we'd love and then the thing tarts
i think we have to stop them from side by a little bit too long i hope i did with it wasn't too personal
but i bet we can we do a few mit five minute questions
okay
yes charlie
you're welcome

so many elements
breeze

what shapes
do

ha
well my first response was there is no door
who
we we create a so it's a swinging doors are we opened the door because we create separation between us and them
the inside and the outside
i like it in the inside
and i like it any outside i like my world i don't like the outside world so we create those walls in in our minds between herself and other that's the door so we have to open it but it's just a way of speaking as there a no
door
who is just vast vast emptiness
i would say that's the shape
ah
a door is the shape of emptiness

it's the wind

wherever there is sir
smoke there's a fire

yes
you're welcome
we find ourselves each other stores at mixture
how we find ourselves reflected
and it's just another reflection
and your stories full the council
you are interdependent that your son works for her to on their debts are you resolve that and that's where herself or is not self worth more and one and the expressions of all that although it is important to him
i was i was cast on a cancer patient
and somebody had let her go to offer insurance and seemed very ill
a consequence
and i was in a position myself
i want
and i said what you know
everything around the fortunes
now my arguments
you do you know
and so when when i found the space and understand interdependency and independence
same breath that's when community this free cash flow and that's when both the seventh taxes scripts
critical so social thank you very thank you

here
ah he's he's a he's doing well he's he's working hard but he's feeling he understood what i told the first that i was gonna do this is a dad i totally understand don't worry about me you know you need to help him he needs help and we just how pool in itself
cool cool it up you know there a mature at first now is really jealous you know so he's he's not talking to me for a little while you know so i'm giving him the space and i understand that he's feeling like you know like the story from look you know the the are the
when the older son saying well you know i've been a good son i've done everything you told me to do you know which is not exactly the case but
but moral at more or less he's done more more
exactly well you the song as for the talk about that mila for a long time
so but he did he's doing very well and so he but he would say he's unhappy because he said well i've been a good a good son and i'm not getting rewarded and the one who was a bad son is getting rewarded how is that supposed to be you know
right now he had i'm just giving him the space and the time to to work through that one
having children
right
i just hate great
a relationship with my child
said and then it's person to person yeah
the jealousy time and whatever
check able to step out of their right but he's a fake you're welcome but he's the older brother he's more mature and be good for him or me i think i've used skill
i think you will mature as a result of this once you know he gets over the the jealousy
guess
last question
when you are you
so when
what am i now
ah right so that's the big self and the small stuff so when he says when you are you nice when you are use your big self
you're a you're a open self your generous self
which is when we feel moss ourselves you know when when in big mine is when we really feel at home and we feel truly ourselves in the sense of buddha nature not the cells that are small identity or a national identity or gender identity or or although those things are important right but ultimately is
is where we find our home is on our big mind that's what he means by you when you as you
thank you very much