You know, for several spring practice periods when there had been someone else in that position, and I had been to several shuso ceremonies, but I actually went home and looked it up on the internet. And so the word actually means head student or head trainee or chief seat. That's how it's translated. And, you know, when I read kind of the history of it, it was kind of the first reference to it that I could find was, it was kind of a monastic, it was a monastic tradition in China and later Japan. And the first time it's mentioned is in 1103, so almost a thousand years ago. And, And the position was one where a student who'd been around for a while was chosen to kind of sit close to the front of the zendo or the monastery sitting, whatever they called it.

[01:18]

and be kind of a model for students who are less experienced or newer and sort of helping them with the forms and, you know, being in sort of an instructor role perhaps, and also taking some responsibility for the, just the running of the Zendo. When, you know, it went from China to Japan to the monasteries there, and then when Zen came to the West, to the Zen diaspora of the West, you know, it kind of transformed like many of the traditions did, because a lot of the centers here are lay centers, like this one is a lay center. And so, There was quite a bit of, you know, kind of information about how it's done at different centers.

[02:22]

And in some centers, for example, somebody might be the shuso for an entire year, but the group only meets twice a week or once a week. So, you know, that's kind of a different form. But most of them have kind of an entering ceremony and an ending session and then a a ceremony at the end, which is sort of ritualized and involves a question and answer with the people in the Sangha. And in our center, It's a period of about six weeks and it involves sitting quite a lot. I chose to sit as much as I could morning and evening and also on Saturday when I could and for this both sessions of course. And then there's 10 or so teas where you meet in a smaller group with people in the sangha. So that's two or so a week for five or six weeks.

[03:24]

And I participated in meetings and events here of various kinds. Soten and I chose a koan for me to study. And then I gave several talks and lectures during that period. And before Sojin invited me to do this, I had actually honestly never once thought of being Shusup, not a single time. And I had sort of felt like I was kind of peripheral in a certain way here. Mary Duryea, who isn't here today, but she gave a talk recently where she described herself as a lurker. And, you know, that she sort of lurked around for a long time. I actually didn't feel like a lurker, but I felt kind of like I was under the radar a little bit. And partly that was because I work on Saturdays, so I generally didn't come.

[04:31]

And this, Saturdays are certainly the most social day where, you know, you kind of get to know people and, and, you know, I didn't come. So I didn't have that connection with people in a certain way. And also it's actually a time when. a lot of the sort of key positions, there's training for them. So, you know, a position like tensor or cook or head server or, you know, Saturday director, which, you know, are all those positions are kind of it just kind of works to teach them on Saturday. So if you want to learn them and you don't come on Saturday, it's it's kind of a imposition. You know, I did become a head server, but You know, Carol had to kind of teach me during session and it was a little bit unusual and so on. So anyway, I was a little under the radar, I thought. But I sat pretty regularly and had been sitting here a long time. So when I...

[05:33]

you know, when it was announced that I was going to be the Shuso, I suddenly felt like I was very visible in a way that I hadn't before. And, you know, many people talked to me, you know, and they kind of came up to me and, you know, really offered their, you know, appreciation and, you know, kind of support. And, you know, I would say, love, really. And it was kind of a shock. I was really sort of destabilized, not in a bad way, but, you know, it was kind of disorienting for me. And I, you know, I, I spend a lot of time in the mountains in Washington State, and there's these, these, little otters, they're river otters, but they swim in the lake there.

[06:42]

And they swim underwater for a really long time, like many, many minutes. I don't know, eight, 10, 15 minutes, they can be underwater. And then they just pop their head out and they look around. And I sort of felt like, you know, my head was suddenly popping out and it was different. You know, I'll just say in terms of sort of you know, what that felt like a little bit. First of all, I had a, Rondi was my assistant and, you know, kind of kept me together and, you know, gave me, you know, sort of kept my schedule and reminded me of things and, you know, set up all the teas and provided all the food for those. you know, did some sewing on things and then, you know, kind of collected me for my talks and for the shoe-sew ceremony and, you know, just generally kind of had my back.

[07:42]

And Sojin and Hosan were, just made themselves extremely available, like I could go talk to them whenever I wanted pretty much. All the former shoe solos were kind of like, you know, you poor thing, you know, but they were like just there for me, you know, like, you know, you know, giving me advice and so on. And then people gave me presents, lots of presents. And, you know, they sewed this beautiful new rakasu and a sutra cloth for me. And, oh, and then, you know, for the shuso ceremony, like three gals, you know, kind of worked on my outfit and lent me clothes. It was kind of like, you know, queen for the day. So, um, I wasn't used to this, you know, I mean, most of my experience with getting, you know, appreciation was kind of transactional. Like, you know, I'd been a dancer most of my life and, you know, when I performed well, I, I kind of expected a little juice, you know, from people, but, or, you know, I, I'm a teacher now and when I teach well, I kind of think, oh yeah, you know, but this was like,

[08:59]

for nothing, you know, I'd done nothing. And, you know, it was an interesting experience for me. So that was one thing, you know, one disorienting thing. And then the other thing is that I gave talks, you know, which I had not really done much before. I'd given some way seeking mind talks, but given how long I'd been sitting here, it was remarkably few. I'd sort of stayed under that radar too, I think. And, you know, for me, this had been quite a silent practice. You know, very rich and very important to me, but not very verbal. And so to, you know, make the shift and try to articulate it was just challenging for me. It was hard and new. And, you know, I would get up here and I would have my talk figured out and I would kind of open my mouth and then I would think,

[10:09]

Do I even agree with what I'm about to say? And I think that, you know, sort of makes sense because it's really not even possible to fully express the Dharma in words. And we sort of all know that. But it was, you know, again, just sort of, you know, difficult to open my mouth and think, this isn't true, you know, or it's only part true. So that was a big part of it for me. And then the third thing was that, you know, I suddenly felt very visible and I, you know, I felt kind of inadequate to this role. And, you know, it was, you know, well, I'll just tell you, Um, I'm sure I wasn't the first Shuso to ever feel that way.

[11:15]

Um, you know, it is kind of a visible role and, you know, I felt like I should be a model, you know, and I didn't feel like I was a very good one, but, um, despite the fact that Sojin told me many times, just be yourself. Um, I felt like I should be a little more than myself, um, and, um, You know, it was like small things, some of them, you know, nonsense, really, like I should be able to bow without using my hands or I should be able to sit in lotus or at least half lotus. You know, I should know the Buddhas and ancestors by heart. you know, I don't know, I should understand more and I should have studied more before I got into this role and read more koans and, you know, not drop my chopsticks in Oreo gear, you know, like just endless kind of list.

[12:18]

And somehow in here I wanted to, just tell you that the way Sojin asked me to do this was that I went into Dogasan, and this was not too much before the practice period started, maybe three weeks, maybe less. And he said, you know, we had our Dogasan, and then at the end he said, if I asked you to be Shuso, would you say yes? And I was like, And then he said, well, go home and think about it and talk to your husband. So I went home and I was like, did he ask me or didn't he? And so I talked to my husband and I thought about it and about a minute. And then I wrote him back an email and I said, if you asked me to be shu, so I would say yes. But I a little bit felt like, well, maybe there was somebody else he was kind of waiting for. And, you know, anyway, so that sort of played into this, you know, this feeling of kind of not being quite the right person.

[13:27]

And, I want to, it brought up a story for me that I'll read to you. Most of you have heard it. This is actually not the whole story. There's more of it, but I'm just, it brought up just this part for me. While Baso Doitsu, that's Baso of my koan, but that's just a coincidence, was training under meditation master Nangaku Eijo. he privately received the mind seal, so he had received transmission. One day, while Baso was sitting in meditation, Nagaku, his teacher, came to where he was and asked him, oh, great virtuous one, what is the aim of your sitting meditation? Baso responded, my aim is to become Buddha. Thereupon, Nagaku picked up a roof tile and began rubbing it on a rock.

[14:29]

Seeing this, Baso asked him, Reverend Master, what are you doing that for? Nangaku said, I am polishing the tile to make it into a mirror. Baso then asked, how can you possibly make a mirror by rubbing a tile? And Nangaku replied, how can you possibly make yourself into a Buddha by sitting in meditation? And this kind of brought up the question for me of kind of aspiration or intention, really, because, you know, I, had the feeling that I wanted to be a little bit other or better than I was. Better, you know, at holding my mudra or better at talking or, you know, just slightly better. And I knew this was nonsense. I knew it was deluded, but it was very motivating, actually.

[15:35]

And, you know, it just kind of reminded me of when I started sitting, you know, and what brought me I didn't sit here, I sat in another Zindo. And my first teacher was Joko Beck, who had no patience for the word enlightenment. She really, really thought anybody was trying to get enlightened was really deluded. And, but, you know, I think everybody, I just can't imagine that anybody comes without hoping or wanting or trying for something. And, So I knew better than to use the word enlightenment at that time, and I never have really since. She trained me well, but I wanted something. And, you know, looking back on it, and it was a long time ago, you know, it was okay to want that.

[16:41]

And it brought me to my sitting practice, kept me there for a long time. And, you know, I practiced you know, with or without that desire, that wanting, that clinging, that grasping. So I just, you know, I just felt like this was kind of human and, you know, and also I tried very, very hard to be a good Shuso. And I'll sort of say more about how that went, but It was a wholehearted effort, you know, I don't, you know, even though it was silly in a way and I knew it, I wanted to learn the Buddhist ancestors and I wanted to bow without using my hands, you know. I haven't succeeded at that yet, but I'm still working on it.

[17:43]

So I'll just talk a little bit about having that thought. You know, when I, at the beginning of the practice period, You know, I felt like this was a big change. And in my experience, just of who I am, when things change rapidly, either for better or worse, you know, my mind is pretty active. So, you know, the first week or so I was, you know, sitting in a choppy seat. Suzuki Roshi, you know, uses the metaphor of mind waves. And my mind waves were big. It was stormy.

[18:48]

And, you know, in a way, when I'm in that state, it's like, I almost feel like I might be knocked off my seat, actually, sometimes by my thoughts. It's really a physical feeling of turbulation. But, you know, over a few days, that kind of settled down and the seas got a little calmer. And then, you know, when that thought came up of, you know, I should be better, I should be different, I should be able to, you know, know what, I don't know, Buddha nature really is or, you know, that I would, you know, I could watch that thought. It was like a kind of a chain of, thinking, and it involved some feeling, you know, I felt a little disappointed or sort of suppressed or a little sad that I wasn't, you know, what I thought I should be.

[19:58]

But, you know, I could sort of turn from that. and kind of let it go at a certain point and kind of come back to my seat and my breath and my posture. Uchiyama Roshi has that lovely title for his book. opening the hand of thought. So it's a kind of, you know, letting go of the thought and coming back. And to me, that's a, it's a, and you know, I do have a kind of a active mind, but it's a, it's a kind of a powerful moment to be able to let it go. And, You know, I also, sometimes I feel like the hand of thought is, has me, you know, it's kind of squeezing me and I can open that hand and sort of be liberated from that.

[21:16]

And so, you know, as the weeks went on, I, you know, settled down more. There's another image, I think this is Okamura's image of, you know, sort of settling on the bottom of the ocean where it's very quiet. And then. You know, the waves are way above you and they're sort of active up there, but you're kind of settled maybe in the sand, in the water below that. So that was one thing that happened to that thought. It didn't ever go away. It really never was completely gone. But like I say, it was like a, it was like not, it was a small wave after a while. But the other thing that happened was that I just got tired. I got tired of trying so hard. And, you know, I can't make this happen, but at a certain point I just sort of gave up.

[22:27]

And, you know, then I really could be here and sort of enjoy it. You know, I felt like even though my head was above the water and very visible, I was still kind of in the flow. And I've had this experience. Actually, Sojin told me a funny story. He said that in a village in China, when people get sick, or maybe this is in the past, when people got sick, The villagers thought that the person was possessed by spirits, so they would beat him. or her until the spirits were gone. And then the person would feel much better because they would stop beating him. And that's a little bit of how I felt about this. You know, that I just kind of gave up.

[23:27]

And, you know, I've actually, you know, you all, many of you know that I get migraine headaches. I also have that experience sometimes with that where, You know, I'm just so angry that I have one and it's not fair. And like, I try all kinds of medicine and nothing helps. And finally I just kind of, you know, succumb. And, um, you know, it's, it's actually not that bad. And, uh, and then when it's gone, you know, life is like wonderful because, you know, I've just given up. And, um, so I had that, um, I had that experience and, you know, of course, you know, when the shuso ceremony at the end came, you know, this thought came roaring back, you know, but by that time it had, you know, it's kind of lost its power. Didn't have so much power. But that's kind of the story of... of that journey.

[24:28]

It was kind of, that thought was my companion on my six-week journey of Shusodom. And, you know, the kind of, you know, having it be there was, you know, kind of a lesson in itself. I'll read this. This is a quote from Suzuki Roshi, really from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Even though you have some difficulty in your practice, even though you have some waves while you are sitting, those waves themselves will help you. So you should not be bothered by your mind. You should be grateful for the weeds because eventually they will enrich your practice. So I really, this thought was really like that for me. You know, it was subtle.

[25:30]

It was tricky. It slipped in at times when, you know, I didn't, I couldn't foresee it. And, you know, kind of the process of working with it was, you know, one of the things that I really came away from, the experience with. You know, and then I thought maybe I just say a little bit about kind of, do I feel different, you know, now? And I would say, Yes, I do feel different. And one way I feel different is I feel, I do feel part of this sangha in a way that I didn't exactly feel before. I feel like I'm, you know, kind of, you know, part of a, maybe a flock of,

[26:31]

birds and, you know, geese when they fly, or ducks, I think both, when they fly, they form a V and one duck is in the front for a while. And then, you know, when they get tired, they drop back and somebody else moves forward into that position. And, you know, I kind of feel like I'm flying with my flock and people take different positions and somebody will be Shuso next spring. And that will be wonderful. And I didn't feel quite as nervous about giving this talk as I felt about the other ones I gave. So that seems like a difference. And yeah, I feel like I kind of am seated here in a way that I wasn't. So all of those things are different for me. And I've gotten to know people better. So I wanted to...

[27:36]

leave time for comments or questions. I didn't really tell you why I had started sitting, but I'm kind of interested in why you started sitting. So if anybody is willing to share that. Jed last night said he was gonna just point at people and make them talk. It is tempting, I have to say. But would you like to know why I started sitting? Should I tell you? So I, um, it was when I had two small children. This was a long time ago cause one of my big children is sitting in the back. Um, but, um, and I was running a big dance organization. I had a studio and a dance company and a sort of a symposium project and I was very goal oriented and busy. And I, I was with my father when he died at just about that time.

[28:43]

My sister and I, my mother, he died at home and we were with him and my mother said, okay, let's call the undertaker. And my sister and I said, no, we wanted to spend some time, more time with him. So we got out our sleeping bags and slept on the floor. He was in the bed. And, you know, during that time, my father had been a very outdoorsy kind of guy and he just loved the, he hiked and backpacked and everything. And I realized that was just over for him. You know, whatever he was going on to, he wasn't going to be here for those things that he loved. And I thought to myself, but I'm not really here for the things I love. You know, I'm always. you know, moving forward and never here for what I love. And I want to be here for what I love. So that's why I started sitting. And did I get it? Yes and no.

[29:56]

How about that? So thank you. And I would be happy to take your questions or comments. And if you don't ask any, I'll point at you. Yes. Oh, well, when you learn to bow, you bow in gassho and you're able to, I mean, this is when you do a full bow, to get down to the floor and heave yourself back up without putting your hands. That's what that means. Yes, Randy. Yeah. Let's see. So my practice name is Maiko Koshin. And the edge of my practice is saying yes.

[31:01]

I know the first part is dancing light, open heart, that's what it is, dancing light, open heart. Yes. Well, I was gonna answer your question. And the first thing that came to mind is that I was trying to impress a guy. Several people have told me that, actually. And then the second thing that came to mind was actually, someone in my family had this kind of outburst and I sort of saw that in myself and wanted to avoid that. And what I found is that I don't think there's any avoiding it, but maybe, maybe accepting it. Uh huh. That's great. Yeah. I was going to ask you, do you, do you give up when there is a really strong emotion Yeah.

[32:09]

You know, I think like a lot of us, I was not raised to do that. So it's kind of a, I have to sort of consciously turn toward it. And sometimes it takes me a while to do that. I would say that. It's not native to me, even though I think I'm so, you know, open and everything. I don't think it's native to me and it, you know, and I really have to I have to see what I'm not feeling in a certain way. It has to show up for me and I have to kind of consciously turn toward it, you know, kind of really make myself, and often I do that sitting. You know, I think I've said before that when I first started sitting, I really thought I had never been depressed. Really, if you had asked me, had I ever been depressed, I would say no, I've never been depressed or, you know, really even sad in a certain way.

[33:17]

And when I sat down on my cushion for six months, that's all I felt was depressed and sad because I just had never, you know, I was like looking on the bright side all the time. And it was a giving up and it was a big relief. Actually, I felt just so happy about it. Thank you. Yeah, Sue. that you might have noticed since your mom lost you so? Oh, man. Even though I was abroad this year, when I spoke to mom during that period, I definitely heard the anxiety that she was having all the time. I can say it for myself. that she definitely feel the responsibility of the role, and pushing her out of her comfort zone to be answering questions and leading, or being that responsibility role, but it shouldn't go seriously.

[34:34]

In terms of differences, though, the only thing I will say is, when I tuned in the video, for her answering questions and now you can hear her answering these questions. These are the questions I ask her all the time. It's great. So I'm thrilled to hear her sharing that with all of you. Thank you, Noah. I will tell you, I think I've told this story before that when I went to Sheshin when my daughter was little, two or three or four, she said, why do you have to go? And I would say, because I'll be a better mother. And then I would come home and, you know, a day or two later she'd come and she'd say, you are not a better mother. Have you noticed a difference in your dancing or appreciation of dance since practice period?

[35:41]

And with regard to trying to bow without getting up without using your hands, if that's been informed in some way by your becoming Shuso and as a body practice, you know, can you talk a little bit about how it's informed you? In terms of dance, you know, even at my advanced age, I think there was always an edge for me of wanting to be good, you know, and for most dancers, it's kind of an endless wanting to be thinner, wanting to be jump higher, wanting, you know, endless, endless, endless, endless. This reflected on that, actually, I have to say. And it made me celebrate other people and also have some sadness that, and this is for your daughter, that I didn't get this sooner, really, that, you know, that I was okay.

[36:55]

You know, it was sad for me. You know, I felt some sadness about that, actually. I would have had a lot more fun. And in terms of bowing, you know, it's, I feel for me, like it's a little edge between taking care of my knees, which are pretty good, and wanting to do the whole form fully. Carol? to practice just saying yes? So does that mean you say yes to everything? How do you discriminate what makes it a yes? Yeah, that's a good question. Because no, I don't say yes to everything. But I just feel like I approach it with more kind of, even the no, with more of a yes.

[37:56]

You know, that it's not like I, sort of draw back, you know, or avoid in quite the same way. That I, you know, even if it's a no, it's not a, it's not a avoiding no. It's a sort of more wholehearted approaching no. So I guess that's what I would say. Linda? And it reminded me of, I kept thinking of getting a hot tub for about 20 minutes a day. And I finally got one. And I kept saying, this is going to make me a nicer person. When I get into that hot water, I'm a nicer person.

[38:58]

And I guess that's part of thinking about all of my deluded reasons for doing everything. Good, I'm glad that's an open question. which are really, really good ideas, of course, in a way. One day I walked out of here, and I went down to Martin Luther King to board my car, and there's this woman sitting at the bus stop, and she looks really homeless.

[40:10]

She looks kind of big and bulky, and she's got a lot of things wrapped around her, and she doesn't look in good shape, and she's flipping, sitting, So have you become a nicer person? You have! You have, Linda. Jerry? I wanted to thank you for something. I don't know whether it's because you wish you so, but it was either during you so or sometime this summer. We were talking about saying yes to be the teacher on these backpacking trips, and as you and I get older, talking about how we can do these things, and how it was so much harder to find people.

[41:19]

There were only two or three of us who would do it when we retired. And you said something like, I think the answer is we can do these things, we just have to take it at our own time. Do you remember that? You said, as long as I can take my time, uh-huh you know and just get the you know i'll get there i'm not competing with anybody right um and there's no place to get anyway and that really meant a lot to me because i had i went to Bhutan a month ago and there were all these young people and me right yeah and there was this big tiger's nest climb and they said it was going to be a thousand feet, or a hundred meters, or something. It was going to take some time, and I thought, there is enough. And then I thought of that. And I said, well, you know, I'll just start. And, you know, if I have to go five steps, and rest, or ten steps and rest, or whatever.

[42:27]

And I actually did it. And everyone clapped. I've had that experience too, Jerry. It was really important to me. It's not, it's not, it's just saying things change and you have to, you know, you just have to adapt and do what's appropriate and not have some picture in your mind about somewhere you're going to get or you're going to compete with the other people to try to be something you aren't. Right. I don't know if that was new for you after? No, that was new for me after I did a lot of hiking with my kids. And they can speak to it, I'm sure. Not only did I come in hours after they did, but they carried all my stuff. It was all right. Yeah. Yes. Thank you.

[43:31]

I think, you know, I was not, you know, fully in my no. I, you know, I either avoided saying it or, you know, kind of hid it a little bit, you know, like I would, you know, you know, just kind of not want to be in a situation where I had to say it maybe or not say it directly. Um, so, you know, it's really saying no, you know, like, you know, if, if I want to say no to you that I, I say it, I don't, kind of dodge and cover, you know, I just say it. And that's pretty new for me actually, so. You should know. Yeah.

[44:34]

Watching you as this, it seemed like great lightness emerged. Yeah. And I really enjoy that about you. And I just wonder if you have something to say about lightness. Um, well, it was, I don't know. I don't know if I really said that I loved Bing Xueso. Did I? Was that clear? I'm not sure that was clear. Um, uh, I don't know what to say to that, but. You know, um, I remember Sujin Roh, she said one time, We all think that we come to practice through pain, but actually we come to practice to express ourselves. That's kind of what came to mind when I watched you. Yeah, I felt that too. That model helps all of us to express ourselves.

[45:40]

The deeper self, the Buddha self. I hear that, that's good. So I really appreciate that. Thank you, and I appreciate you saying it. So Din, did you want to say something? Yes, you've really known me a long time. My mother came here and you married my sister to that rascal who ran off with a 45-year-old yoga teacher. I know. And I've always noticed that. But in the last number of years, I don't know how many, I don't remember what time, but in the last collection of years, you've become much more steadily practicing, even though it's kind of peripheral.

[46:54]

But then at some point you started coming to classes. really enjoy studying. And I was very impressed because you'd always bring me questions about your study, and you'd bring the book, and you'd look at it, and it was a growing sincerity in your practice, and curiosity, and diligence that was just emerging more and more in a kind of subtle Yeah. Yeah, I think it was perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you again and again. that creative force.

[48:21]

And so when Sochin asked me about this, I was very positive. I thought it was a great idea. It was a great idea. When a practice period is working, it's often because the shiso catalyzes something in the whole community. And so we really are doing it together. And you have that quality. really in touch with each other. The material we were studying also really helped. We were studying women ancestors. But the conjunction of all of that was really a wonderful practice for me. I felt it more in me. I felt myself more in it. I felt that too, Hossan.

[49:25]

I did feel that too, actually. It was nice. It was really nice. Yeah, I'm grateful to you. Should we stop? Yes. Oh, one more thing. Ellen, you said that you think it's fine to want these things and you got what you wanted. You've been a great, oh, you've been a good shoe shop. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Dean. Thank you.

[49:49]

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