crowd here for a second. My name is Alan Sanofi, and on behalf of the Abbott Research Advisement and the Berkeley Zen Center community, we'd like to welcome you all here. Some of you are regulars, and some of you are irregulars, and some of you are people who come because they heard that Sula was speaking. And some others have come a great distance to participate in Zen teacher, Ruben Abito. He teaches at the Maria Canon Zen Center in Texas. We're really happy to be able to welcome Ajahn Sulak Sivarasa.

[01:03]

It's a rare opportunity to have him here. He's a really key figure in socially engaged Buddhism. over many, many years. When I started at Buddha's Peace Fellowship in the early 90s, I had the opportunity to meet him and work with him. I first met him, I think, here in 1992, when he stayed with us for quite a while. He was in exile from his native Siam for having the temerity to speak truth to power and tell the truth about a military dictatorship in Cyan at that time. And he was subject to arrest and left the country for about a year, a year and a half, right? So we became acquainted with him in our family.

[02:08]

I've worked with him. He's a founder of International Network of Engaged really useful to us. He's a Buddhist social philosopher, social critic, gadfly. He makes people uncomfortable. And he makes other people comfortable. So thank you for being here. Please go ahead. And let me know if you can't hear. We can turn up the sound system in the back. My thought this morning is called a very simple, very simple. I will show that a monk went to see the Buddha and told the awakened one that he had been meditating for many years before he could obtain a magical power to walk on water

[03:24]

on how silly that monk was to waste so much time to achieve something that is not at all useful. If the monk wishes to cross the river, the best way is to go to a boatman and ask him to carry him. In Buddhism, meditation is not to walk on water or to fly in the air. It is indeed miraculous to walk on earth mindfully and to attribute what Mother Earth contributes to the welfare of all. If we do not exploit the Earth or any aspect of nature, nature will grow holistically, yield itself, help us human beings to grow physically, mentally and spiritually. When we look at a flower mindfully, we will realize that it is indeed a very simple matter.

[04:33]

The flower also has non-flower elements. Right now, it is fresh and beautiful, but soon it will decay and die. Yet, it will become compost and will be reborn as a plant, which will again produce flowers for all those who have shared beauty and goodness. Likewise, each of us too will one day die, and our dead bodies will unite with the earth, and rebirth will take place miraculously or magically for those who wish to understand the interconnectedness of all things or the inter-being of all. Without you, it could not be me. You and I inter-are. as this path unfolded. In each of us, there are also non-human elements.

[05:35]

We are the sun, the moon, the earth, the river, the ocean, the trees. Without trees, human beings cannot survive. Scientific knowledge conditions humans to be like machines, and we perceive the world as a universe that merely composed of matters. Matters are merely things. Things have no life or feeling. Hence, we destroy Mother Earth and cut our trees merely for financial gain or in the name of economic development. It all started with the age of Enlightenment, which argues that Kopi Toa Earth was soon. I think therefore I am. The I element is based on the ego based on that.

[06:38]

Any being which cannot think is regarded as inferior and can therefore be exploited by those who can think. Even among thinking beings, the clever ones who can think better are in a position to exploit the weaker ones in accordance with the Darwinian notion of survival of the fittest. Besides, the more we concentrate on thinking, the more our thoughts become compartmentalized. The deeper we think, the more we bury our thoughts and ourselves. We cannot see the woods or the trees. We are unable to perceive the world holistically. Hence the products of this thinking and our experience with matter, mainstream science knowledge and technology are unable to be questioned. And even greater problems is that when we reach the age of economism and consumerism, bespoke by the name of globalization, we change the phrase, I think, therefore I am, into I buy, therefore I am.

[07:52]

Hence, human beings, on the whole, have only two aspects in life. to earn money in order to consume whatever advertisers brainwash us to purchase. Advertisers are, on the whole, controlled by financial corporations, which have become more influential than any nation-state. And their main objective is to exploit natural resources and human beings in the relentless pursuit of economic gain. If I were to go to the Buddha to ask for a very simple magic from him to rid us of our modern predicament, he would most likely suggest the following phrase, I breathe, therefore I am. He did not believe in completion for five minutes. Breathing is the most important element in our lives.

[08:54]

Indeed, in every living being. For without breathing, we all die. And breathing goes on day and night, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, non-stop. Yet most people do not take good care of our breathing. If we did, that would indeed be symptomatic. Breathing in, I calm my body. Breathing out, I smile. Dwelling in the present moment, I know this is a wonderful moment. Breathing in, I know that I'm breathing in. Breathing out, I know that every in-breath goes deep. The out-breath goes low. Breathing in makes me calm. Breathing out makes me feel at ease. With the in-breath, I smile. With the out-breath, I release. Breathing in is the only refreshing moment.

[10:00]

living out, it is a wonderful moment. The above technique is called, in my tradition, it is called Samatha Govana, which helps one to be calm or to just cease or peace within. Then one would develop Insight Meditation, or Vipassana Govana, in order to develop critical awareness of the Self, not to take the so-called self seriously. Thus, one becomes less and less selfish in order to look for peace and justice in the world, with real understanding of oneself and of the world. Hence, one is no longer controlled by biased views of love, hatred, fear, or delusion. Our medical formula should be like this. Let us pray for world peace, social justice, and environmental balance, which begin with our own breathing.

[11:09]

I breathe in calmly and breathe out mindfully. Once I have ceased of peace and happiness within me, I try to reduce my selfish desire and reconstitute my consciousness. With less attachment to myself, I try to understand the structure of violence in the world. Linking my heart with my head, I perceive the world more distinctly, a sphere full of living beings who are all related to me. I try to expand my understanding with love and help to build a more non-violent world. I vow to live simply and offer myself to the oppressed By the grace of the Compassionate Ones and with the help of good friends, may I be a partner in lessening the suffering of the world so that it may be a proper habitat for all sentient beings to live in harmony in this millennium.

[12:21]

Indeed, the heart of Buddhist teaching has much to do with social views. The Four Noble Truths, namely, The suffering, the causes of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the path to cessation can be skillfully applied to social activism. This is indeed a very simple magic. Moreover, through deep breathing, one can see the roots of social suffering on the basis of Buddhism's three main root causes of evil, namely low path, greed, Those are hatred and moha, ignorance. In narrow terms of interpretation, understanding the three root causes can help us to get rid of pains and disturbance in our personal life. But in broader terms or in the social context, they can really help us to envisage the causes and give us hints

[13:31]

about the ways the causes can be seized. In my view, consumerism and capitalism can be explained as the most important modern form of greed. With them, our values are geared towards satisfying the gaps in our lives by increasing consumption and accumulation. By failing to understand the magic of advertising, we are at its mercy. This inevitably leads to conflict of interest. And more importantly, exploitation is justified by the concept of the invisible hand. Militarism embodies hatred at its core basis. The lust for power, which leads to widespread human rights abuses, war and the like, is a prime example of how hatred can manipulate individual minds and lure them to install unjust social structures in order to uphold their power.

[14:44]

The last main root cause is ignorance, caused mainly by centralized education. Students are taught not to think holistically, but to compact and mentalize their thinking to memorize and to abide by the existing norms. This can help explain much of the weakening of the mobilization of civil movement as well as other social movements. Oftentimes, students are trained and equipped just with skills to become employees and to look for security in society. without being aware of exploiting their own fellow nationals and natures. Children also get exposed to detrimental values, such as television, computer games, and the like. These have been replacing more and more the traditional teachings of Osai teachers.

[15:48]

All this suffering can be, in my Buddhist tradition, reduced or totally extinguished by the right understanding of the nature of things. Buddhism is quite unique, for its approach is not reinforced by faith, but rather by practice. Thus, to attain understanding, one has to really experiment with the truths themselves. Aloofness is never ever replaced by Buddhism also gives me a sense of interbelonging. With this view, I feel the interconnectedness of all beings. It helps to internally affirm a common faith among Buddhists. We are all friends in common suffering. Thus, my Buddhist model of development must begin with everyone truly practicing

[16:52]

to understand himself or herself. To my Buddhist traditions, we call this jipta-sikkha, or the contemplation on mind. Meditation is important for us to attain the insights, the qualities of which include alertness and criticality. Critical self-awareness is thus important for us, and this will help the practitioners to feel more empowered to criticize themselves. From the critical understanding of ourselves, we can begin to try to critically understand our community, society, nation, and eventually our world. From criticizing ourselves, we hold a critical awareness for society and the government, and all the estimations in order to understand how these mechanisms of greed, hatred, and ignorance operate and manipulate at the structural level.

[18:01]

Bearing in mind the solutions, we also feel hopeful to articulate the use of nonviolent means to achieve a peaceful end. Would this challenge also help me feel closer to and eventually be one with the majority, the poor. In our tradition, it is believed that every being embodies the Buddha nature or the potential to attain the highest understanding. Thinking this way, I feel the equality among all of us, regardless of rank, status or gender. And I feel that the poor are entitled to the same dignity as us to struggle for what they should be given. From this platform, over the past 35 years or so, my project has sprung up.

[19:04]

We started from working with local people in Siam, which I now call Thailand, and then expanded to the international level. For example, I felt interested in working with the Thai Buddhists in my country some years ago, and later on founded the Thai Inter-Religious Commission for Development to work with Christians and Muslims, and to implement training to raise awareness of the poor. And monks and nuns in my country are mostly coming from the poor, and they should be aware of social and environmental issues. For the last 15 years, I have co-founded the International Network Engaged Buddhists to spread the ideas of social engaged Buddhism at the global level and to tap support for the Buddhist minorities in Bangladesh, India, Nepal, and the like. I am happy to say that the National Network Engaged Buddhists work very closely with Buddhist

[20:12]

And we, some of us, also were in Iran, before the war. Buddhist teaching is the core that permeates all my activities. It is indeed a very simple magic, starting with proper speaking. Incorporated in that is the oiliness and wisdom of the poor at the lowest level. And of course, monks in my country are mostly from the lowest background. I also feel that beauty has to go hand in hand with all activism. I have made all my efforts to preserve ancient artifacts and mural paintings, and I have also used culture and the arts as a tool to achieve social and political goals. And culture, in my view, is not bound by national borders. It should reach out to our neighbors or even further than that. We should have respect for other cultures, traditions, as well as diligence, precisely because with these tolerance, society at large can survive in peace.

[21:25]

Diversity and living culture must be at the heart of the struggle against the monoculture of the macro-syndrome which is controlled by international cooperation. For me, my work grows out of a very simple magic. in this country. I think he's a not very brave. How does that fit with the other, how do you see it coming together with your social and your case work with Lisa as a transgender partner?

[23:20]

How do you see support for cultural work, preservation of cultural work, creation of cultural work and tradition in the context of your piece work, social activism? Art and visual ideas. Yeah, because arts and culture, expression of human behavior, And then again, I say, by the will of Allah, we support the Han. And you mentioned the destruction of the religion in Iraq. I think we, perhaps, we Buddhists should do something, helping our suffering friends, Muslims. And likewise, you know, when Afghanistan blew up the image of the Buddha, and so on, as well, I think we should also forgive them.

[24:24]

And in this way, we can corroborate this, Perhaps, because of the people I mentioned, I think in this way we can help the Muslims in Afghanistan learn more mosque, because of worship. And they can do it in their way beautifully. For me, that's a piece of art. So I think we should go beyond our religion and culture in this field, and show them our concern for their art, their culture, and their values. You spoke of Buddhism as being unique because it emphasizes practice. How is engaged Buddhism unique among other kinds of social activism? Well, social activism without understanding one's heart, without having a sense of peace inside, no social activism, I would call them social engineer. I think they have done more harm than good. But since the World Bank has a wonderful idea, it really gets poverty in the world.

[25:29]

50 years of their existence, the gap between the rich and the poor has become much wider. But now I have a chance to talk to Mr. Wilkinson, who is at the World Bank. He has been with me. Some of his top economists must do some big things. They don't have to be British. They can be British. But some of them are Christian, some of them are Jewish, Muslim, but when it goes to the World Bank, it's a new religion. And now, the World Bank has room for prayer and so on. It's small. It's still a good thing. And certainly, the World Bank, for the first time in the last three years, listened to the poor. They published three volumes, voices about the poor, 50,000 people. I think those social engineers, activists, if they don't care for themselves, they make the rest of the world. And again, for those Buddhists and otherwise who only care for deep meditation practice and don't have social justice, don't realize that our position at the middle class, upper middle class, is that our wealth relates directly to the poverty of the majority.

[26:41]

If you don't develop that critical element in yourself, in your heart, in your head, meditation is a kind of escape. Following on precisely what you just said about practice, not just for oneself, but precisely as part of this world of suffering that is in the a socially engaged Buddhist, or a socially engaged person. And we are living in a society where 6% of the population, of the world's population, take up 40% or so of the world's energy and resources, and so it's what you could call the belly of the beast. And those of us, many of us are here trying to also give, supporting the Buddhist Peace Fellowship and similar movements

[27:43]

perspective, what are the tasks that we need to do here at our doorstep in order to be precisely more linked with what you are seeing from a world effects perspective. But for those of us who care, who see the need within, who care, who meditate, particularly those who wish to practice the peace in the Buddha, you must take the four noble truths seriously. The first truth is the truth of suffering. And suffering is not only our suffering. social suffering. Even the poor in this country suffer so much, not to mention the poor elsewhere. I was teaching at Swarthmore College. Usually top people, you know, big people. And they want to learn about social education, politically. And they want to learn meditation. So I took them to meditate. Next door, chester. And I brought black people, unemployed. One, they made friends, you know. Poor children, in the back, don't hate the whites. Friendship is the most important.

[28:57]

And these kids, young kids, very concerned. They probably feel hopeless. What can I do? And it's a good reason that once you have something to do, I think you are hopeful. You become positive. And when you give your compassion for the poor, you must also give your compassion for Mr. Bush. Poor fellow. That's the way it is. Export to poverty. And I'm happy to say, you know, Not only World War, with the Soviet Union, even Cornell University, Harvard, they now exposed the Soviet Union to the 400 countries. But if you have a very good partner, then you see how the grassroots operate. It's just empowerment. Right now, around the Bay Area, I have those mega students in my country, bringing the farmers to this country. to show the American people that our Jasmine rice has now been co-opted by the Americans and they co-opted their rice because of their chemical stuff.

[30:02]

I mean, people should have exposed little suffering. And then, you can do anything. Once you do something not beyond your power, and the first thing, of course, in the Buddhist training, you do what was done. Learn to be generous. And then you can see that. Learn to do some social share, non-violence. And that's the thing that is important now. In official statements and written documents, our government has officially adopted policies of perpetual military supremacy and preventive war. stated its militarism. I wonder what experience you can share with us about opposing militarism in Siam.

[31:08]

Well, you see, if you have this position of Buddha, it must be a skill for me to buy it, to change something very negative into positive. One good thing, most governments, they look up But as the institutions, they've gone down, at least they showed, or stand, and so on, that the last one stands. And so look at that way. And what we do? Build up civic movements stronger and stronger. This is where you need inner peace. And this doesn't help. Because you may recall, the first civic movement internationally, recognized by the mainstream press, but by theatres, where they were against activity, From there on, people are now self-medicating to cultural things. And I think these civic movements are not opposed violently. They use falsehoods, they use the truth.

[32:13]

They control the mainstream media, big catholic catholicism. And I think if you think in that term, however small we are, think not only of it. The one era, not only think of the religious, think of the other end of it. People look at psychiatry and I think in this sense, Buddhism offers something alternative. Symbolized lifestyle, harmonious lifestyle, Samoa is beautiful. You know, that sort of idea, perhaps, is going to become much stronger than what they allow to be that way. Because it's going to be real. Because it's non-violent. It's going to be peaceful. It's going to be Ahimsa. I'll let you know. When somebody asks Narakasura to summon a variety of buddhists from one world, he says Ahimsa. out of the Buddhist countries, like I have in Myanmar. Can you encourage us by telling us ways in which they are visibly more successful than non-Buddhist neighbors in reducing gaps between rich and poor, or empowering the poor?

[33:23]

Well, for those of you who have read my book, Peace of Peace, I think peace tension is inevitably Buddhist, probably Buddhist, inevitably Buddhist, compromise so much with the prevailing norm. Sometimes it's a naturalistic. In Sri Lanka, unfortunately, even the chief monks come out and demand, get rid of all the samayus. And these kind of people, you have to understand them and forgive them. But what my role is working with small buddhism, that is bringing the message of peace, nonviolence, good heart, into social activism. And I think we have small networks. Under the umbrella of the International Association of Buddhists, we work in Cambodia, even Burma, the most central country, the Sangha, they work very closely with us, building up organics. I think what we need is a civil society, and we must be Christian, Muslim, non-believers, because Buddhism should not be a label to divide us from others, or should not

[34:36]

drive us to make others become bullies. I think we have a lack of this in the world. Don't pick other people. Build up awareness. And I think, in my opinion, it's working quite well. In my country, in Burma, of course they have oppression from the government. In my country, we have oppression from international corporations. And we are under the American hegemony. So you have to build up awareness. And not to hate those who oppress us. Build something positive. And I see that as something very, very positive. Of course, a woman is small. Yes? I grew up as a Christian, and then also within Buddhism, I've been taught my whole life about not hating others through oppressors, or oppress other people. And I totally believe in it. And it's really hard when there's a lot of, especially escalations of oppression going on. So I've thought about it a lot, but I would love to hear anything that you would say about particular practices that you think are helpful in times when, especially when there's a lot going on, that is so obviously oppressive, that can be helpful.

[35:50]

You see, I mean, most of us, you know, we are surrounded by our heritage. We are surrounded by society. In the English country, we're surrounded by the media. And the mainstream mass media is full of violence. And they all support the government one way or the other. The government will support San Antonio Corporation one way or the other. If you are surrounded by that, you feel hopeless. But if you go out, you see, I happen to be at Harvard during the Iraqi war. I saw so many people came out demonstrating. They were hollow. They had a bit of hollow. So I think that is one very good sign. And if we want to help, how we can with the message of peace, non-violence of these people. Thirty hundred and fifty big skillful men work together beyond this structure, beyond war. How many hundred and fifty? In my part of the world, you see, oppression is different, but it's the same. Controversy creates hatred and derogation. I have to work with those, and I'm very lucky, very happy.

[36:52]

I haven't been able to work with those in the grassroots, at the grassroots, mobbing out, and the rightful, You know, it's tremendous, you know. Some of them have lost everything, you know. Because they believed in the American high propaganda that money is everything. They saw that also. They saw everything. They lost. They become drug addicts. They become superstitious. No hope. But once, so weak, breathing, you know, they search for peace, they empower themselves, and now they put themselves together. Half a million now in the assembly of the poor. And they're fighting the government non-violently. And we are now thanking them, internationally. Thank them regionally. Tremendous. People lost hope. Empowerment from those who are really being oppressed. And I think that is really compassionate work. As you know, Satyaseva said that compassion is not just to help the poor.

[37:53]

It's helping others to share their suffering. And when you share their suffering in the Buddhist way, And of course, the Buddha also said that patience is the most important dharma. Patience, compassion, and then you are hopeful. Things will change because in Buddhism, everything is changing. Right now, it's changing, but in the past, things were changing very good. Because, I recall, there was an English historian who said that in the 21st century, during the century of spirituality. Otherwise, human beings will not survive. I think it's true. So I think we can help. Working with our Christian friends, non-believers, even non-believers could also have spirituality. As the Dalai Lama said, disillusionment, good heart, love, compassion. Please, together we can do something very positive.

[38:55]

And I'm hopeful. And I know I come from a small town and people are very afraid to ask there because of dividing the town. And so if something happens that pro-war side does and people that are not for the war And I think Hooters, especially, because we're so, our practice is compassion and compassion for each other, and all involved, that it feels divisive sometimes to act strongly.

[40:04]

And you talk a lot about alternatives, which is great, but how do we also resist the militarism that someone talks about, and things with fierceness, as well as with heart. But you're afraid of the danger. The first thing to do, you know, is for those of us who feel something dangerous, you know, violence, become angry. Of course, it's natural. Accept anger. Don't throw it away. But breathe deeply. Embrace anger. We need that, you see. We need that inside of us. Because anger is not in us, it comes from elsewhere. It's in the dream. But if you know how to breathe properly, anger will disappear.

[41:06]

I mean, kids sometimes say beautifully, you know, when the sun is in their face, it's true, the flower, the flower, the flower, mouth of truth. Anger will also be transformed into compassion. I think that's essential for most of us, especially for socially-educated Buddhists, because we see much more suffering in the world, and you can know that. And secondly, use sinful means. Those who are for the war, not to condemn them, of course they have to be very sincere. Try to defend them. Try to talk to them. It's the same with the fundamentalists, you know. They think that they're free, you know. It's not easy. But once they become free, then it's a good thing. Because the Buddha said, externally, for any other purpose. Externally, you don't care so much for wealth, for success, for good name.

[42:07]

You care for good friendship. I'll tell you another lecture. Good friendship is the one who tells you, and I want you to listen here. He or she becomes the voice of conflict. And once you get friends with them, they will appreciate that. Because at the same time, I can recall Pompey's issue, when the permission to the Thai border. They were full of hatred. And they want to fight them. They don't care whether they die. If I tell them to be nice, and to be calm, to be nice, and they will just, you know, go out. I try to listen to what they want. Anything I can help. I send them medicine. I raise money. I send them books. If they want to talk to anybody, I talk to them. Once they know that I'm with them, support them, I'll do anything. You have to learn something. So we saw the non-violence. But even the word should not be used. You have to get a kernel from this country.

[43:10]

This was kernel of the light, you know. Then this kernel will be converted to non-violence. That's the way you do. Build up confidence first. Otherwise they think that they're afraid of us. Because we don't share their open resolution. It's not easy, but it could be done. You mentioned that one of the contributors to ignorance is our education system that promotes facts and memorization. We're thinking of seeing interconnectedness and things. In your travels, have you come across not just individuals, but schools that you think are doing the right thing? Well, I think that some both schools. The Buddhists are doing that. Naropani University are doing that. because it's a narrow path, you know. First, you meditate. You don't have to be a Buddhist. Because when you learn something, you learn something in your heart, you are a kid, number one.

[44:10]

And number two, be physical, or be equal. And thirdly, what they're teaching, demographically. Decide together. Not to be employed, and they decide that. To employ themselves, just fully, not play for themselves. But so far, in 25 years of existence, And they're very proud, you know, the people who study Buddhism there, they are proud that the teaching of Buddhism there is much more meaningful than at Harvard. Because at Harvard they teach Buddhism, and in the world there were the Guinea pigs, you know, you'd step over a piece of that. And everybody's here. They come here. And suddenly they learn painting, whatever. So I'm privileged, I sit there, and they'll be here. Isn't that wonderful? And others are actually training, trying, you know. And even at Harvard Medical School now, they learn about meditation. And they come with statistics. Those who are meditating. And that's good. This is good. And this country, in many ways, is wonderful. In many ways, that's good.

[45:11]

But I think we have to know how to make the positive side go on the negative side. And if you have good energy, I think that's great. And when this country becomes less powerful, they spend most of the money in our arms. And then Nick Dennis said, but we're very poor. It's part of it. That's why the environment of other countries, that's why the environment is here. And when we are poor together, we shall overcome things together. This I have thought. Yes? Hi. Can I get your name, please? I just want to write it down. towards some point in this version of dominant socialism, and whether the interconnectedness you talked about here would be a movement towards dominant socialism. Well, good socialism, you know, in this country is a bad word.

[46:14]

And communism is a very good word. But in fact, the word Sankha is communism. It's because it's a derivative of Sankha. See the great Sankha? He was only one fold. He's a piece of rope. He's in the restroom chair. Because we can adopt that, you know what I mean? Socialism, Nami socialism, it doesn't mean a stale capitalism. It means less power and more sharing. That's dana. And if you cut the dana seriously, your value in life is to keep, not to take. And if that is serious, capitalism will fall. And I'm also speaking from England, you know. The top big companies are now realizing that they have no moral legitimacy. It doesn't seem. And I'm involved in Europe, they call it the Social Venture Network. They realize now, you know, to be a capitalist. In the old days, they go to Sheraton on Sundays, and they exploit people to get the funding. But now they say they go to North Zealand meeting on Wednesday.

[47:18]

and give it to the poor, it's far more effective. But this social internet world relies on that they have to change themselves. Big capitalists, they have a lot of money, but they work too hard. There's no time to breathe properly. Now they say, take meditation practice. Not only for their self-well-being, but the atmosphere in the office. They stay carefully. And now the members of the union can share in the company. They're changing tremendously. Still small, but I think it's effective, particularly in Holland, Belgium, Switzerland. These countries have a dominant state, you know, the law, and that's why the people of those countries, they have more bicycles, less cars, and so on. I think if we move in that direction, I would see that that would be socialism. You don't have to destroy the capitalists. They themselves, maybe, are good capitalists, you know? The financial corporations will become smaller and more Maybe let's take one more question here and we can continue the discussion.

[48:21]

outside OT, and I'd just like to, Bob, could you, Bob Lyons, raise your hand, for the PDF folks who are wondering where to go next, you need some instruction or help, so I'll talk to Bob, okay? One more question, yes? Yes? How do you understand that in the last few years or so, that there's so much violence in these countries, like in the country I work in, like in Africa, Well, of course, many factors involved, you know, from the Buddhist point of view. But Cambodia, you can see very clearly, Mr. Pol Pot learned from France. Like a monk they do. He didn't learn from, [...] from even the Buddha. And you have to realize, I say, also, this so-called Buddhist country, most of the countries of Buddhism, they already have forms now. I say, those Buddhists need to learn more from you. You also need to learn more from us. with both our negative elements and so on.

[49:44]

I think, I must say, one Jew learned teaching drastically. When I first went to Moscow, on my way to Harvard, a man came to fish me at the airport. A man! He said he met me three times before, but he was forced to kill me when he was seven. He was in the Khmer Rouge. But now he's fairly famous now. He sings, he dances, and he does anything non-violently. You see, and he's now in Cambodia itself. And Cambodia, the next side, next to Boston, also full of violence. And he's trying to kill them. I said, we need one, two, three persons to do it. And the same year, my big capital B, Buddhist Sangha in five countries, four of them, because they worship Confucianism. I said, I do understand that. That's all. You see? You see? It's that's all. So I'm hopeful. Those who are ladies and so on, so forth, hardly is it for their own hesitation.

[50:47]

Hardly, because they don't understand the danger of greed in the new form, hatred in the new form, delusion in the new form. Because they think, oh, it's so traumatic state inside them. They have to do both inside and outside. Interconnected. Even Sri Lanka, you know, I have now connected those mountain ladies who I thank you all for your kindness and attention and of course to the others. My senior.

[51:20]

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