Tozan Daishi says the attainable, unattainable depths of practice can be elucidated and the indescribable point can be practiced. Ungo Doyo Daisho says there is no trail that leads to practice while you explain the way. There is no trail but that leads to explanation while you practice the way. I think there are two points which are in common with the two statements.

[01:04]

One is that Gyoji is to teach Dhamma, to teach Dhamma. The other one is that Gyoji is to practice, to actualize. So from this point the conception of Gyoji is very different from that of practice which you have thought. So our practice is to teach Dhamma and to practice. To teach Dhamma is to speak, to speak something, to speak something whatever you do using six senses.

[02:15]

There are three categories of our deed. Mouth, body and mind. So when you say something with mouth, the mouth teaches the Dhamma. When you do Gassho, Gassho teaches Dhamma. And at the same time the practice comes into being simultaneously. The two points, Gyoji is to teach Dhamma. Gyoji is always to teach the Dhamma. The second point is that Gyoji is to continuously practice, put it into practice.

[03:23]

That's why Tosan Zen Master, the attainable depths of the practice can be elucidated. Attainable, unattainable depths of the practice can be spoken. Spoken. Anyway, your eyes, your mouth, your ears, your hands, your legs, your whole body, whole part of your body. Every time when you do something, they always speak of Buddha Dhamma, teach Buddha's teaching.

[04:34]

For instance, if you are, let's imagine you come to the Doksan, then you talk with the teacher about something, then you understand so well, and in a sense, sometimes you will be happy, sometimes you will still have some doubt. But anyway, in front of the teacher you say, yes, I understand. But the moment when you go out of the cabin, you don't understand. Then you, in a sense, you can't respect to the teacher. Then let's imagine, let's imagine the person who stick out their chin and come. Right after, he go out of the cabin. In front of the teacher you say, yes, I understand, thank you.

[05:52]

Then go out. What does it mean? What do you mean by sticking out? The moment when you go out of the cabin, you understand so well without, before I explain what does it mean. Very clear. So, speaking, generally speaking, the deed, what you stick out your tongue, is not important things. Just stick out your tongue, not so important. But, according to the time and circumstances and men, anyway, sticking out your tongue, speak something.

[07:04]

Before you explain what do you mean by that. Just speak. Sticking out your tongue, always speak something. Immediately. From this point, gassho also, gassho, if you do gassho, gassho always speak the buddhadharma. The bow also senses. But there is some question, why the tongue, sticking out your tongue, must speak buddhadharma? Why? See, this is very important point, but it's not so easy to understand this point. Why? But you can answer to the question, how did you, how did you stick out your tongue? Yes, you can.

[08:07]

Why, why did, but you can, it's pretty hard for you to explain, explain why is it this tongue, sticking out tongue, must speak of something, to others. Same replies to the question, why is it Shakyamuni Buddha was born in this world, and how to, how to preach, how to teach the Buddha's teaching after his enlightenment. He said that everything attains enlightenment, simultaneously when he attains enlightenment. But why is it Shakyamuni Buddha gave up his teaching? Strictly speaking, no answer, no answer.

[09:21]

If I may say that there are already human beings, there are already human beings, that's why Shakyamuni Buddha teaches, teaches his teaching. For example, why am I, why does my tongue move now? It can't be explained, it's pretty hard. Why do you speak now? Why do you listen to the lecture now? Can you, can you answer to this question? If I may say, you are ready, you are already here, that's why I speak. I am already here, that's why you listen to, that's all.

[10:27]

One of our famous mountaineering, mountaineer, mountaineer, mountain climber, mountain climber. Mountain climber, anyway, was asked by someone, why do you, why do you climb the mountain? He said, well, it's because mountain, mountain is over there. That's why he climbed the mountain. But this is true, this is really true. Why does the tongue sticking out of the tongue speak in Buddha dharma? Well, you are here, that's why tongue must speak something.

[11:35]

Why that Shakyamuni Buddha speaks, you know, his teaching? Because human being already here, he has to. If you read the Zen stories, I think you will find the same stories, same meaning of, same meaning of the story as I mentioned. For instance, the Zen master ask you, from where are you, do you come?

[12:49]

You say, well, I come to, come to San Francisco. But this answer is not the real answer, why, where do you come from? Why are you now here? How did you come? You can't explain. Yes, I come from San Francisco by car, by airplane, by walk, on foot. But it's pretty difficult, why are you here? Because if you chase after, if you research for this question,

[13:55]

again and again, through and through, the origin of this question, origin of you, will have to be traced back to, for instance, amoebas. Original, original, what do you call original monkey? Monkey? The monkey, which is the original form of, original being of human being, human, a man. You have to come back, come back to the original being of a man, called monkey. Or, amoebas. It's pretty hard to explain, why I am, even though you say, yes, yes, amoeba.

[15:00]

Amoeba let me, amoeba compelled me to be here. It's really, it's not clear. It's not clear answer. Then, at last, what's left behind? Amoeba. Always, something always, there is something, it is question, it is question, always question. Why I am here? No more they come. No more they come. Why I am here?

[16:36]

I forgot the name for it. Why are we here? Yes, I remember that. Yes, I remember that. I forgot that. After that. After that. The point is already over.

[17:51]

Hmm. Ah, yes, anyway. Sorry. Ah. Anyway. Anyway. In our practice, the, whatever you do, with your eyes, with your mouth, with your nose, with your hand.

[19:09]

Ksho, pa, walking, satsang. Always teach Buddhadharma. Ah. Something about the point. The point, more than the deed or actions. Hmm. The deed itself, what you stick out your tongue, is not so important, but if you ignore the time, occasion, circumstances, and the man,

[20:15]

you create some trouble between you and others. So I mentioned, as I mentioned, why is it, that tongue and hands, sticking out your tongue and doing Ksho, must teach Buddhadharma. Because there are many people already, there exist already many people, others, waiting closely with you, yourself. That's why

[21:18]

the tongue, sticking out your tongue, must speak of something, regardless of whether you like or dislike. That's why that's why Tosan Zen Master, the attainable depths of practice can be elucidated. Be elucidated. If I say, you think, well, if so, whatever, it is okay. It is all right to do as I like. But I don't think so. Because everything as you like to do, must speak of something, to you and to others. If you ignore the very important point,

[22:25]

so-called time, occasion, and man. So you have to take good care of man, occasion, and circumstances. Now, according to the time, occasion, and man, you have to stick out your tongue. At that time, the tongue, sticking out your tongue, will make sense. This which comes into being in harmony, relating with others. If you ignore the time, occasion, and man, circumstances, and stick out your tongue,

[23:29]

it will make you create trouble, for you, for others. That's why Dozen Zen Master says, indescribable point can be practiced. Indescribable point can be practiced. What is indescribable point? You say the time, occasion, and circumstances, and man, seems to be very simple. You say always, oh, I am free. Whenever you may be, oh, I am free. I don't want to get money. I can't sleep anywhere. But actually, it's not so simple. Even the time, even the circumstances, particularly a man,

[24:33]

are very complicated. A component, the factor of the time, the circumstances, a human being, are very complicated. They are, they consist of many conditions, many reasons, countless reasons. Not only one reason, not only one condition. I think most of you come to the Tathagata because Tathagata, you like very much Tathagata, circumstances of Tathagata. Not Buddhism.

[25:39]

Strictly speaking, not Buddhism. You like very much Tathagata. One of our priests says, how do you like Tathagata? Oh, yes, Tathagata is very wonderful. Then after that, well, only hot spring is good. Hot spring is very good. Rest of things is not so good. Most of you want to stay Tathagata. Why? Ask to yourself, well, I like Buddhism, that's why I want to stay here. No, no, no, I like very much hot spring. I think you like very much the circumstances of Tathagata, that's why you stay here. I'm not going to say that reason is bad. That's okay.

[26:41]

Whatever kind of reason you have, as long as you stay here, you stay here. But if you think Tathagata, circumstances of Tathagata is very simple, that's why you like. Escaping from a muddle of fact to busy life, which is going on in the city. Then you want to stay here. But if you come, the moment when you come here, you will gradually find the fact that circumstances of Tathagata is not simple. Because you have to do the Zen. You have to do the chant, not in English, in Japanese. You have to get up at 3.30. You will realize the fact that you got completely exhausted. Exhausted. The exhaustion cannot compel you to get up.

[27:47]

So please stay in bed. Well, it's okay to stay in bed even once. So you stay in bed. Sleep. So, whatever you pick up, even a small detail which happens in your daily life, it is that existence, its existence is not so simple. It's not so simple. That's why Shakyamuni Buddha says everything is produced by original conditions. Original conditions. But actually, you don't understand this point. Because if you're confronted with some difficulty, some difficulties,

[28:51]

and you see that immediately something, you know, then you try to get out because the cause of suffering comes from this point, one point, one condition. For instance, get up at morning 3 o'clock. You find it difficult. Find it so difficult to get up. Then you find some reason, cause of the difficulty, the cause to get up 3 o'clock. You say that component factor, component factor of the difficulty is based on to get up. Only one thing. Get up at 3 o'clock. I don't think so. More than that. Let's look at your psychological situation, your mind.

[29:56]

Very complicated. Very complicated. That's why Shakyamuni Buddha says suffering or whatever, everything is produced by conditions. Conditions. Not one condition. Many conditions. If you're confronted with some difficulties, you have to see them. Many conditions, number of conditions. I think it is very sure, it is sure that you will take time. But you want, actually you want to get the solution immediately. It's impossible. That's why the master says sometimes step by step, walk step by step, like a walk, calm.

[31:01]

Calm. There is truth. This is truth. Everything is produced by many conditions. It means that there are a number of possibilities. Number of possibilities to find, to figure out solutions. Not one possibility. It means there are a number of times you have to spend in order to find a solution. In other words, it means that the search for the truth leads you to take time.

[32:07]

Forever. Forever. That's why Shakyamuni Buddha says everything is produced by conditions. Not one idea. Not two ideas. Not three ideas. Many conditions. Visible, invisible. Visible. Then you have to care, you have to take the best care of circumstances, occasion, men. From this point, when you want to stick out your tongue,

[33:10]

you have to watch carefully, occasion, time, men. Then stick out your tongue. I think it means, it means, I think this point indicates what a Buddhistic complete liberation is. Buddha's Falling back upon the Buddha's teaching, the Buddha gives a great suggestion to us. First, approve of others' presence. Others' presence. Others' presence.

[34:14]

Others' presence. That's why your tongue, whatever you do through your tongue, through your gassho, speak of something. Speak of Dharma. You cannot deplore it. You cannot deplore it that there is others' existence. That's why you can't speak. That's why I can't speak. That's why Shakyamuni Buddha gave a lecture. That's why Shakyamuni Buddha explained the Buddha's teaching. The truth of the human affairs, world affairs.

[35:14]

Because you are here. And at the same time, you are here, that's why I speak. You listen because I speak. It means that you must first of all approve of others' presence. You cannot back the promise, but acknowledge this truth, this fact. It means unattainable depths of practice can be illustrated. So perceive others' presence first. Then what shall I do?

[36:21]

You shouldn't. Second, you shouldn't judge yourself by yourself. you should make much of the evaluation, evaluation coming from others. That's very interesting. It's very interesting. In the common sense, you say, oh yes, I have capability of typing writers. I'm very good at typing writers. Why don't you use me at your company? Because I am very capable. Very capable. But Buddhism don't say that.

[37:29]

First of all, you perceive the others' existence and then you first walk. And secondly, you make much of others' evaluation. In a sense, it's pretty hard. But this is very true. If you ignore this point, you always create trouble. And then, in terms of the second point, so-called

[38:44]

the fact that yogi is to practice. As Ingo Doyo Zen Master mentions, there is no trail that leads to practice while you explain the way. There is no trail that leads to explanation while you practice the way. Then, if you understand the meaning, significance of your deed, of your action activities with your body, with your whole body, all part of your body, how important they are, understanding clearly the time, occasion, and man.

[39:51]

And then you do something. You speak something at that time your speaking is complete. And then you do zazen. Zazen is the peak of buddhahood. Because the zazen occupies all your life and all others' life and circumstances and time. In other words,

[40:57]

it's not necessary to insert the selfishness, idea of selfishness into your activity, your practice. Just do it, so-called second zazen. In other words, in other words, generally speaking, in your daily life, first of all, you should perceive others' presence and pay much attention to others' evaluation before you evaluate yourself by yourself. And then

[42:04]

someone give you, someone admire you because they even dared just practice without making complaint. But nevertheless, you shouldn't have excess of self-consciousness. That's why, Ungudoyo Zen Master says, there is no trail that leads to practice while you explain the way. When you explain the Buddhadharma, all you have to do is just to explain. There is no room to put excess, the excess of self-consciousness.

[43:06]

In other words, don't be infatuated with the evaluation made by others. Through and through, all you have to do is just continue to practice. Japanese or American priest, or between Japanese and American priest. But anyway, Katagi must be there in the assembly to call Zen Center. So in the Zen Center, many people are there. There are many people. There are many people. Even though I don't like stay there,

[44:09]

as long as I am in Zen Center, you know, many people who has no substantial look at me and lots of feedback. Then at that time, my ego is completely empty. Then gradually, I can live in harmony. Maybe sometimes I could create some trouble between Zen Center and Katagi. That's okay. It doesn't matter. So, I have to be patient because my ego must be completely empty. This is the world of principle and reality united. This is third world. And fourth world

[45:13]

is the world of all realities or practical facts interwoven or identified in perfect harmony. It is within the inflicting of reality. It is within the inflicting of reality. Within continual effort which both Zen Center and a man so-called Katagi

[46:23]

try to empty themselves. It is within the dynamic motions. Dynamic motions are created by both Zen Center and man so-called Katagi. Emptying themselves with each other. This is harmonious, complete harmonious world. How to harmonize? How to empty? How to empty both Zen Center and Katagi? This is the question. In our Santoku school,

[47:29]

there are two ideas. One is mutual interdependence. Second is mutual penetration. Mutual penetration. Get excessive excess of self-consciousness. The moment when you get some evaluation made by others. To take excessive pride in yourself. At that time, you shouldn't forget the important point that there is no room to put selfishness into the practice itself. Watch your faith.

[48:32]

Just do it. Continue to do it. That's why I think sometimes how great a man who discovers the zero is. But let's imagine how valuable zero is. From the zero, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 100,000 billions come from the zero. And also infinite, infinite or finite. The series comes from the zero.

[49:40]

That's why I said Zazen is no sign of effect. No sign of effect. All you have to do is just sustain carefully Zazen self. Without having having having the decoded decoded We want to the human being has a tendency which they have they want to they want to translate secret telegrams.

[50:49]

Immediately. It's pretty hard to get the message without having to decode it. The other day I mentioned about the face lifted woman, nose job woman. Ready? Ready? They say the moment when you see the face lifted woman and they recognize how great result and you say wow, this is surgery of a great improvement. 100%. 100%. But she doesn't feel so well.

[51:52]

Let's imagine she left immediately away without saying thank you. The next day you will see the daughter of somebody who has a nose job. It is really conspicuous how great it is. But after running the lesson the bitter lesson from the other face lifted woman so you prompted you pretend you pretend that you don't notice but actually you notice so well of course. Then you keep silence. But that lady says do you notice, don't you notice anything different about me?

[52:56]

Now how do you answer to this question? Well, you are completely upset what measure to take. If you say maybe your speaking will hurt the ladies. From this story I think there is very important things. To live to in theory over improvement may give impression that her the previous appearance was dreadful which is worse which was worse. But to ignore is unkind. Unkind. So you say that's why you said how great you know your recent surgery

[54:00]

have made improved 100%. You said. But it doesn't make sense for her. But if the change is conspicuous for best for complete just right don't say something extra. You should say very simple. Very simple. For instance my, you look great. At that time she thank you. She will get the message without having decoded it. But human mind always likes love so much. Translate. Translate the secret telegram. When you admire the people

[55:05]

you try to give, make compliment to others ignoring. Ignoring the human nature. Who is apt to be crazy about translating secret telegram. So even though you if you want to say something just simple. If you find great just great. My, you look great. Like children. They say, children say good morning. That's very simple. Even though I am angry my feeling I feel, I don't feel so well this morning. The children says good morning. I can't

[56:08]

help saying oh, yes, good morning. So the Zen Buddhism tell us to know human nature delicate workings which human nature possesses. Don't ignore. Sometimes if you read the Zen Buddhism Zen Buddhism obviously ignore human feelings. Something like killing the cat throwing the Buddha infant statues into the dark. But you should

[57:13]

you should know first time occasion and man when you want to use don't imitate. You should use words, activities whatever coming from yourself what you are coming from your own nature don't imitate. So

[58:19]

There is here is the egos, ideas about this side. Most people think I should Buddha says you should give up your ideas. Immediately you think I should give up throw away ideas all of them. You can't do that all of them. Because each of us has something so called karma. Many Buddha can cut off immediately egos all of them immediately. But I can't. I can't. I take a long time. Life after life I'm sorry. So I suffer.

[59:20]

Whatever you call me bossy or teacher I don't care. I am cutting you as a man. Life after life I have to I will take a long time. I'm sorry. That effort is very important. But look at the world. People always try to give up ideas immediately. All of them. That's why it creates another new trouble. Let's imagine a discussion in United Nations. You are wrong. You are right. I don't think so. Where is the right idea? Where is the right and bad ideas?

[60:23]

I don't think so. That's why I always I make it a rule to talk about Buddhism. Buddha's teaching. Buddha's teaching is very helpful for me. Whatever happens. In other words, Buddha's teaching let me look at myself in a completely different angle, from a different angle. But while I try to look at myself in terms of my viewpoint, I can't see clearly who I am.

[61:23]

It looks like I am always staying in a stinky room. Fishy. Fishy room. I can't smell fishy. Sometimes I have to get out. Then, wow! This room is half stinky. Half stinky. So I always make it a rule to speak about Buddha's teaching. Buddha's teaching makes me turn into a completely different world. Wow! That's very nice. Then, I am not saying that what I did is right. What I did is something wrong. I know so well. What I did is something good. I know so well. But it doesn't matter whether or not it's good. The important point is

[62:25]

each other look at it from a completely different angle. Buddha's teaching helps me in that way. Fishy, did you say something about what it means to plunge into Buddha's world if wherever you go the assembly of illusions is there to reach you? Plunging into is I think the other day Jay had mentioned impossible situation. Impossible situation. I used an example. I took an example of assembly. If you understand assembly ideas so-called assembly

[63:26]

it makes you confused. But I mentioned assembly is impossible situation which you cannot get out. In other words to say what you are born in this world is to say what you are completely with people. With people. It means you are completely brought up in assembly. It's called human being, human world. This is impossible world. Impossible situation. Then people, human world take you out. Some part of your life. Sometimes you say Ouch! Sometimes you scream I don't like that. But it's pretty good. That time you are always

[64:27]

moment after moment you are empty. Then when you are empty everybody pays respect to you. So please work. I will give you some position. I don't mean I am not saying position is important. So people recognize you, who you are. When you are empty it's not so easy. It's not so easy for you. To live is to be lived. The other day I mentioned to live is to be lived with by others. At least to plunge into. There is no room to escape. This is

[65:28]

source of mutual interdependence. One more idea is mutual penetration. Mutual penetration is person seeing from his own function. Capability. In terms of man's capability we each other are empty. For instance, there is seed. Seed has a certain function, capability. Seed has capability which grow it so called grass. Then

[66:32]

in terms of the capability of the seed the grass is completely empty. The capability of the grass is empty. When seed grows as a grass grass is empty. Capability of the seed. This is idea of mutual penetration. In other words in terms of the capability we each other are empty. In other words the way you use your capability completely free. You need others.

[67:37]

You need others whose capability is empty. Do you understand? In order to make the seed grow we need the possibility we need the possibility of growing growing of the grass growth growth so called grass. So when grass seed grows as a grass seed disappears. Do you have a sense?

[68:39]

Hey! The feeling that we have that we want to be independent We want to be independent. And we want to we don't like too much to be dependent. Feel that we are dependent. Oh, I'm sorry. Not independent. Interdependent. I'm sorry. Interdependent. I'm sorry. Do you understand? Interdependent. Not in in independent. I'm sorry. Interdependent. How are we

[69:43]

to be independent? Maybe independent isn't such a good word. Most of us feel that maybe not moved like you say imperturbable. How are we to be imperturbable and dependent at the same time? Although I know to be at the same time it seems that difficult. This you know it is a matter

[70:43]

which you have to experience in daily life. It is not a matter of explanation but I have to anyway explain. So in terms of capability of A and B A and B both are always interdependent. Interdependent. In terms of the capability of their own. The sea and grass also. Interdependent. Also in terms of the A and B A and B are completely interdependent. Interdependent. If you if A and B

[71:45]

want to be independent they have to be interdependent. They have to be empty by each other. Also in terms of capability of A and B too. So there is something which make both A and B exist. How to exist in harmony. It is called interdependence. Interdependence. But in the world of interdependence we are always empty. Each other. So you think, well if so

[72:47]

where is the input of various. See? Where is the input of various. But you can't explain where is the input of various. What you can say is when you understand this relation between the two, A and B who is who are interdependent completely. That world is the world where input of variety is there now between two. If you think of the interdependence idealistically it's pretty hard

[73:49]

there is input of variety because interdependence always empty. But when you understand through and through in other words the veil veil of A and B is veil of A and B are thoroughly penetrated. In other words A and B are completely interdependent. That time that time there is input of variety by complete realization of the truth of interdependence. This is self-realization. So through the interpretive sense

[74:50]

you can explain, you can understand in what situation people live interdependent. Until theory of interdependence you can explain through the interpretive sense. But after that there is input of variety. This is question. After the theory of interdependence you have to practice. You have to practice. Excuse me. Otherwise the moment when you confront with a death you are completely upset. Completely upset. You completely fall down. You can't get up. But theory can explain what the death is, what you are. Interdependence. Yes, that's right. But Dogen says

[75:52]

even though you like the dragons you always explain how nice dragon is. Then one day true dragon appears. You completely fall down. Help. Through the practice you have to get taste of interweaving. Thank you. I find this problem comes up when you change the dependence of interdependence and I find that if I get into what you might call my own trip say chanting really loud to show

[76:52]

how strong I am or something like this and not listening close enough to other people then I'm really not I may think I'm independent in a way but I'm really not together with the whole group. On the other hand, if I just say get too dependent on listening to certain people, like there might be somebody right next to me who's chanting very strongly if I just listen to them and become dependent on that one person and then they make a mistake or they suddenly stop then I stop too. I get followed up too because I become dependent on one person. But if I listen to the whole sound of the whole group and become what you might call

[77:55]

interdependent with the whole then it doesn't matter who makes a mistake because the whole keeps going and you can be carried along by it and you can help carry it along. So to me this helps me understand the whole thing. Interdependence or independence or anything like that. Hmm. Actually in our world our lives are like a hide and

[78:56]

seek. Hide and seek. Like the children. Hmm. Of course sometimes we need to watch carefully what happens in our daily life between the two. Sometimes we have to pat the head. Sometimes pat the whole. But the important point is don't pat the head quickly. Don't pat the head roughly. Don't pat the whole immediately. Don't pat the whole with rough cross.

[79:56]

Before pat the whole before pat the others head before pat your head we have to do there are many things what we have to do. Preparation. There are many things so called preparation for doing something. This preparation this preparation make you look at see into little deep depths. Depths. In other words the world it is the place where the people lives interdependently. This place is in the

[80:59]

dynamic situation. Dynamic situation. Not idealistic static place. Static situation. Whatever happens mistake or successfulness, success, succeed you know of course sometimes we need take care of mistake we need to figure out what's the cause to create the mistake between the two. But we have to look at carefully and before doing something we have there is something which we have to prepare for it.

[82:00]

For patting for patting the head. This preparation enable you to see into depth of life which is called interdependence. Dependence world. Interdependence is going on in the big world which is called dharma nature. Primal nature itself. That's all. It is called shoki according to our santaka sutra. Sho is nature. Primal nature. Ki is arising. Primal nature arising. Dependent, interdependence where people live together in peace is going on

[83:01]

going on the world going on in their primal nature arising. So, in Shingon school it is called that word is called Great Sangha Buddha. Great Sangha Buddha. Born here. What would you call it in Sanskrit? Virutana Buddha. Virutana Buddha, yes. Virutana. So, that's why Virutana Buddha is very big. Including the law of interdependence. See. If you study Tibetan Buddhism you understand so well what's one term for this

[84:05]

Buddha. What is the difference between mutual interdependence and mutual penetration? A thing itself which exists in the plane dimension is interdependent. A thing itself exists interdependently. This is mutual interdependence. Another one is mutual penetration is the the capability which a thing itself

[85:06]

possesses lives interdependently. Emptying themselves, each other. You understand? No. It sounds to me when you say that we empty each other that is that almost like we condition each other or what's the difference? When you say that we empty each other does that mean that Buddha reflects Buddha? Buddha transmits

[86:17]

something from Buddha to Buddha. He says we each other are emptied. Ah, anyway. Excuse me. Don't we all fill it up? Don't we just empty each other? Don't we fill up? Before you fill up you try to fill up you are already alive there. This is real existence. In other words it is the place where you are alive completely and fully. This is empty. Until you

[87:25]

reach this situation maybe you sometimes you have to pass you have to you have to go through some process. You crash. Sometimes pleasure by emptying. Empty. Sometimes you try to fill up sometimes you don't fill up. Anyway let me talk about different, ok? Your question, about your question. Mutual independence is let me

[88:25]

imagine the category, ok? Category must be empty. Must be empty. In terms of in terms of mutual interdependence if I want if Katagiri want to live with you fill, with fill. Mutual penetration is I have some capability so called teacher. So called priest. Zen priest. Or you have some capability so called students. So in terms of mutual penetration the capability so called teacher must be empty

[89:26]

by the capability you have. So called student. That time my capability have relation, close relation between teacher and the students. If I stick to my capability so called teacher I always say, Hey, you are students. Why don't you bow me? Sort of command all of you. Don't. Like a cat. Hey, don't. Cat exist. Every day you do. Hey, exist. So at last you are completely broken in. Very gentle cat. But it is not real students. It is not

[90:28]

the real relation between the students and teacher. Because you have, you are human being. You have some capability. Before I hit your head first of all I have to that capability so called teacher must be empty. Nengasho.

[90:58]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ