Well, I guess it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what today's talk is about. Last year, just after the Gulf War, or about that time, I can't remember exactly, but that's when this incident with Rodney King happened. And I remember writing something for the Wind Bell, San Francisco Center Publication, Wind Bell, about it. And I sort of equated the violence of the government with the violence happening below.

[01:01]

It's called the trickle-down effect. And when we look for reasons why this is happening, I think we all know. It's pretty obvious. When I heard of the the verdict of the jury for the Rodney King case, it was astonishing. But then, I'm used to astonishing things. When you look at what's happening, what's been happening for the last 12 years, Iran Contra. Nobody paid for that.

[02:04]

It's unimaginable that everybody knew, everybody knows exactly what happened, yet nobody paid for that. So a lot of frustration has been building. Not just police brutality, but the fact that there's really no justice below a certain level in our country. And the gap keeps getting wider and wider. And nobody paid for the SNL scandal, except us. I mean, the taxpayers. So this is kind of a lesson in karma, actually.

[03:20]

Karma is the law of cause and effect. When you create an action, every action also produces a seed, just like a tree or a plant. When the plant grows, it produces seeds, and those seeds drop into the ground, and when the conditions are right, they sprout. the fruit of karma always produces some effect. And the effects of our actions produce, or the causes of our actions produce an effect which is a correct effect, whether we like it or not.

[04:28]

It's beyond our judgment as to what happens when we do something. So sometimes people say, well, if you Buddhists don't believe in judgment day, what keeps you on the moral path? Well, Buddhists don't believe in judgment day, but every day is a judgment day. Every moment is a judgment moment. In other words, moment by moment we're reaping the fruit of our actions. So there's personal karma, which means that each person's actions, the actions of each individual person, karma actually means volitional action. That's all it means. Each person's action an effect on what happens in the future.

[05:37]

It's not fate, it's just the law of cause and effect. So, you can say that a country also has its kind of karma. The way a country acts or the way a responsible body of people act also has its retribution. So right now, somebody's getting a kick in the pants for the actions that have been going on for years and years. Although it's not a big enough kick in the pants. Still, it's... Can you imagine legitimate kidnapping? People being kidnapped lawfully.

[06:42]

Can you imagine that? But that's what we've done. This country was built with kidnapped people. Abducted people. Whose cultures and families were destroyed And these people were only used as individuals to do someone else's work. So, in a sense, we've trained the people who have been destroying our cities to do what they're doing. It's actual training. It's kind of interesting.

[07:44]

Without knowing it, of course, without realizing it, we train people to do what they're doing. We're always training people to do what they're doing. We train the police to do what they're doing, and we train the underprivileged people to do what they're doing. It's a mutual training ground. So, most people, I don't know about most, but a good number of people are only interested in self-protection, not so interested in change or transformation, which is a kind of pity. How do we get off the self-protection route and do something for transformation? This is supposed to be a democratic country.

[08:51]

And the way to make it work is to have representation. And whenever this kind of incident comes up, I always say, you should vote. The bottom line for change is voting. But people don't believe it. It's rather astonishing. People will not vote. And then they complain. Can you imagine what would happen if all of the people, the oppressed people in this country would vote? People say, well, all of the officials are the same. You're just changing one for the other. But it's not true. It's not individuals.

[09:59]

It's not who the individual person is. It doesn't matter who the president is. The president represents a body of the people. People say, well, he's not so good. He's not so good. I wish there was somebody good. It doesn't matter who that person is so much. It's a matter of the attitude behind that person, the attitude of the people that are supporting that person. If you want things to stay the way they are, don't vote. But change happens little by little. And it's additive. It's an additive process. It's not that someone will suddenly become president and change everything.

[11:01]

That doesn't happen. It's an additive process, little by little. In the 60s and 70s, there were tremendous changes, tremendous forward changes that people fought very hard for. Then in the 80s, it all went down the tubes. And this is the result. Things can change so fast. You think that it's going this way, and suddenly, it's all going the other way. The last 12 years have been the most disappointing, the most disheartening years. It was worse than the Depression. I was born in 1929 and my mother said that I brought on the Depression.

[12:10]

Those were difficult years. But everybody at that time was working together to get out of it. So there was, even though everybody was down at the bottom, there was this optimism that by working together the culture would come back to its... get on its feet. And then it kind of raced past the point of satisfaction. and escalated into the culture of greed and left most people behind. So this is truly depressing. And now we're feeling the consequences. It's no surprise. But when people are disenfranchised and neglected, unloved, unwanted, then they react.

[13:34]

So all this, you know, looting, I don't believe that it has to do with getting something. I think it's possible for almost anyone in this culture to have a TV set, if they want it. Or to get a Coke. Looting is just an expression. It's just a symbolic act. in most cases. It's just a way to express yourself. No other way works. It's just like a kid having a tantrum. When mom won't listen, you just have a tantrum.

[14:45]

After a long time, There's nothing else to do but kick and shout. So we're living in the midst of an alienated subculture. It is scary. something needs to be done and the haves don't really want to mix with the have-nots because what the haves has created is The underside of what the people that have has created is something they don't want to associate with, their face.

[16:00]

The gap is too wide. So how does that gap get narrowed down? Very difficult. So I thought that, I know that this thing is bothering everybody. So if you have anything that you'd like to say about it or discuss, please, I would like to open it up. I just want to make an exception in my remark because there are people, you said that everybody can get a TV. on the way here are living on Chattanooga Avenue on the street.

[17:09]

They do not have access to buying for television or having a place to live. And I know that in Brooklyn there aren't enough beds and shelters for all those people who need it. I just wanted to... I agree it is symbolic, but it's also... there is a tremendous amount of real deprivation. Right. I agree with you. When I say everybody, I don't mean everybody without exception. It's just a kind of term meaning that even if you are poor, it's possible. you know, down to a certain level. Well, my son Noah lives in Los Angeles and I talked to him on the phone and he said that on Wednesday night, I talked to him on Thursday and he said on Wednesday night he went out rioting and I said, you did?

[18:21]

And he said, well it wasn't really a riot, it wasn't what you think, it's just It was a demonstration, and he said he went out, he lives pretty much near downtown LA, and he said he just felt tremendous frustration and rage and upset and distress. And he went out with a friend, and he said there were all these people who were blocking the Santa Monica freeway or something, and he said the crowd, there was a huge number of people, they were mostly young people, they were white, black, Hispanic, all together, and he said it was not at all scary, he wasn't a bit scared, It felt good to him to be out there with other people expressing their upset and that there was a real feeling of solidarity among the people that he was with, who were all strangers to him, but that they were not being violent towards people. And there were some people setting palm trees on fire and things, but they were not being at all violent towards each other. Also, then on Thursday, when I went over to work, I passed the, I went by at about one o'clock, went by Martin Luther King Jr.

[19:34]

High. All the kids from the school were out there stamp lining the sidewalk for eight blocks along Rose Street, and there were black kids, white kids, every other kind of kid there holding big banners saying, we want peace and justice, and making peace signs and stuff. So those two things, both, I'm just putting those out, too, that it's not, there's some feeling of hopefulness, too, where there are people who are out there expressing themselves not violently, and that we need to remember how much the media really stresses the violence and doesn't tell us about the kids at Martin Luther King Jr. High and stuff, and they're just so touched by their hopefulness. But what I've seen is both sides. And there is a large number of people, young people, who don't have the prejudices and the mindset of the older people.

[20:42]

And I think that's a lot of what the peaceful demonstrations are about. pain in the thigh, the cramps, the aching. That's one question.

[22:00]

Well, one question at a time. Meaningless means meaningless to me. To say something seems meaningless doesn't mean that there's no meaning. It just means that I don't understand the meaning. There's nothing that happens without a cause. So, if you find the cause of a result, then you have the meaning. You just have the basis for the meaning. So when we say something seems meaningless, it means I can't figure out why this happened. But it doesn't mean that it's meaningless. There is a cause for everything. There is a reason that everything happens. It's just that I can't figure out what it was. Francis Bacon couldn't figure out what it was. So he said, the meaninglessness of things, with this seeming randomness.

[23:10]

One way to think about meaning is that chaos is just another kind of order, which we can't understand. What was your second question? Yeah. Well, there are some, but I have various theories of why that is. But I can't tell you the truth, but I do have various theories of why that is. And one theory is that before you can give up self-identity, Before you can give up ego, you have to have self-identity.

[24:12]

So, most people that are not acceptable in the culture, whose identity is not acceptable in the culture, need to establish their identity in the culture before they can not be attached to it. Does that make some sense? But there are some people, some black people who've come and sometimes it's sporadic, but they are here, and they're always welcome here. To follow on that a little bit, some of you know I work at the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, and we've been trying to feel that some response,

[25:34]

connections or lack of connections with various civil communities. I would appreciate if anyone has some suggestions, not right here, right now, it can be outside of tea, for connections that can be made, people to talk to, bridges to be formed. I'd like to know that, because I feel it's appropriate to start doing that, which doesn't mean necessarily bringing a lot of people

[26:53]

You said that the difference we can make is vote by voting. Yeah. And my impression of the election is whoever can afford to pay the most on the TV commercial seems to win. And as a, you know, people who are on a low level, I mean, I don't know, I mean, those people who haven't been participating in voting, are they really going to do what the TV they can go beyond TV commercial. That makes some difference. But it's because there's only a small group of people who vote. TV commercial or no TV commercial. And if all the poor people in this country voted, it would make a big difference.

[28:15]

Because they certainly should know which side their bread is buttered on. With TV commercial and no TV commercial. Well, I mean, there's in this country two major parties, but do you see the difference in terms of really the way they operate for the poor people? Yeah. I mean, I don't see that much difference. That's because for the past 12 years you've only seen one party. It wasn't always this bad. That's right.

[29:23]

You're voting for what you think is right. Because there will always be, in any government, there's always corruption and so forth. But with one side you have an opportunity, at least, and with the other side you don't. Yes, I think your point about poor people voting or oppressed people voting, making a change, is true. And the example I would give is the attitude of the Southern senators and representatives of Congress. Their whole attitude over the last 10 to 15 years has changed in respect to their voting patterns due to the fact that they have such a large percentage of black people now voting in the South. So while perhaps not a lot of progress is being made affirmatively, They're very careful about what they do in terms of their voting that they not offend the black electorate.

[30:27]

So little by little, something does happen. I was just thinking during this conversation how complicated voting actually is. That it's a first door into a system of voting for JFK. classes or our civic in our government that needs to be healed.

[31:56]

Right. And people feel, a lot of people feel, a lot of poor people feel that they don't want to be part of government and therefore they don't want to be registered to vote. It's not, I hear that everywhere. Nevertheless, they have to do it. I would say that the one The biggest opportunity for change would be to get people to vote. but there is a group that started some, I don't know whether it's a religion or it's, anyway it has an African name, and they have a ceremony and so on around the time of Christmas.

[33:09]

And so I just put that out to, I think that plays a part. Yeah, I have had a lot of experience in this, and I can tell you that if you're a white person, You have no idea at all what a black person feels like when they come here. No matter how kind you are or how giving, you just have no idea what the level of mistrust is. It's just inconceivable, actually. Even though you can conceive of it, you can't experience it. So, I mean, I've had this experience for years and years with people that have been here and who still come, you know, over a long period of time, over 10, 15 years actually.

[34:23]

they still feel the same way, no matter how. So when you think about the enormous task of integration, it's overwhelming, mind-boggling. But it doesn't mean that that shouldn't happen. it's going to take something tremendous to make it happen. Because this kind of practice is so formal, and when you walk into this practice, you have to conform to the practice. So it doesn't really leave, you can leave everything outside and conform to the practice, and it doesn't leave you any space to express yourself, root-wise. So that's a kind of deterrent. Some people can do that, but the one thing that people share here is kind of whiteness as a root background.

[35:36]

So blackness is not part of that. Everybody's open to that. It's not part of the root. So how to do that is a problem. dialogue more part of the sangha and less of just dialogue with you? Well, for individuals to talk to black people and See, no matter how much you try to make a person feel at home, there's something else that has to happen for them to feel at home.

[36:41]

And it's a kind of magic ingredient which Since I'm coming from Asia, and I'm an Asian, so I guess I really don't understand what you mean by sharing the experience of being white.

[38:38]

Because I remember when Deadmau522 came to Great Theatre, I listened to him. I was really struck with Deadmau522. struck with the experience because he is a man who comes from Black Africa and speaking English and having come from Anglican tradition. And somehow I felt that he shares audience with the feelings, with the experience of the audience. And I felt, well, if he went to Japan, for one thing, he has to talk with the translators. And I think that Japanese wouldn't understand The way American audience understood him, there's something, there's no sort of a common feeling among them. You know, it's very, to Japanese, it's a lot. It's a foreigner after all, you know. And totally, so I understand through intellectual understanding.

[39:41]

And I guess I'd like to know what you mean by being white. Wow. Because I feel at home here. Everybody's a different color. But if you look around you, the basic color is white. The predominant color is white. So I'm not white either. But there's a kind of whiteness that predominates. And it includes Asians also. Well, I'm all in favor of positive change. Isn't there something in Buddhism that says, well, this is just the way it is. And if you try too hard to change things, you're merely reacting to it and perpetuating the cycle of process. In other words, you mentioned the six years. Advance is made in the 60s. And then there's this, wouldn't you say that the 80s may be a backlash?

[40:44]

Setback. Well, maybe a natural consequence. of doing something, that's right. So you make an effort to do something and then there's an equal opposite reaction. That's the physical law. And then you make another effort. To let things take their course is important. To see how something actually is, that's one thing. And in order to create change, I think there's several ingredients. One is to initiate something, and the other aspect is to let what you initiated take its course. If you push too hard, then you cause a reaction. It's bound to happen. When you push something too hard, you cause a reaction against it.

[41:49]

So the faster you go, the more pressure there is. So it's very difficult to know how to let a thing be, and be patient, and let transformation take place in its own time, in its own space, once you've initiated something. But you also have to keep it going. So it's bound to happen that when you create transformation and change, that there will be setbacks. It may be disappointing, but it's inevitable. Things don't just go straight. So the setbacks of the 80s actually are creating an opposite reaction on the other side. to make it go forward again, on another level. So it's kind of like this.

[42:52]

It keeps going that way, but it's always going up too, hopefully. Although it could go down. But I think it's always going up. As I say, you can't keep a good person down. a week or so ago, and then also remembering some things I'd read that Thich Nhat Hanh had said that came out of his experience during the Vietnam War. And it was interesting to me that he related that frequently he and some of the followers of the organization that he was associated with, people had a lot of curiosity Out of that, it seemed that he was struggling with trying to find the right thing to do with where he was coming from rather than trying to take a side. And that there's a certain amount of confusion that may arise from that that we just have to be with and see what happens.

[43:58]

But on the other hand, there's a tendency when something needs to be done to just force out and do it. And when that happens, it may be clear which side you're on, but it may not be the thing that heals the division between you. I think one has to be very careful how we push things. Thich Nhat Hanh was kind of in the middle during the war, and trying to mediate, trying to bring things together. And people thought he should be on one side or the other. And so he got a lot of animosity from that, from being in the middle. And he had to endure that. And his whole way of working was to be peace process. And I think that if he had tried to do something more, he probably would have been killed.

[45:03]

But I think he did pretty well, and he really created consciousness in the world, you know, just by his steady persistence in his practice, rather than trying to move things that can't be moved, but can only move in their own time. And I think that's a good example. even though it's kind of after the fact of the war, his contribution is still taking effect. Yes, as I was listening to your reflections today, I was thinking about the many insights that you have given me over the past several years. One of the more striking insights was when you were discussing at one point the Holocaust, and you talked about how it would be defeating or self-defeating if you were a Jew in a cattle car approaching Auschwitz to have any heat in your heart for those who were doing what they were doing to you.

[46:15]

And then when I thought of that, I could not help but reflect that this last week was also the week of Yom HaShoah, the Holocaust, and that these events should occur on that week. It was particularly striking to me. He's somebody, when you see him, he's just filled with joy and he's laughing all the time.

[47:24]

And yet, there's also something in him that's like steel. And having both those qualities really enables him to make peace. As this gentleman was saying, he makes an effort. He just makes an effort. their minds all over the place, there are great risks to be taken. And that somehow his joy is connected with some kind of fearlessness.

[48:53]

And I don't understand the mechanism, but it's worth looking at again and again. Well, the reason he can be so joyous is because he has this perfect freedom. And whatever he does, And they encouraged people to really let it out, whatever their deepest feelings of fear and anger were. It got very hot. And one of the critical issues that came up was a black man was saying, you're not willing to give up any of your privilege.

[49:58]

You say that you want to communicate with us. You say that you want to be empathetic. But you're not willing to give up any of your own privilege. somehow what it gets down to in this kind of capitalist society where most of us come from a position of relative privilege, educationally, otherwise, financially, that ultimately you have to be willing to give up some kind When you think about what you have to give up in order to come to a common place, you have to give up something.

[51:12]

It's true. And what is it? What kind of privilege is that? We don't have time to discuss that one. That's a good one. It's quite true.

[51:32]

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