I bow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. How's the sound in the back? Okay. Okay. Well, I'm speaking low. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. It probably doesn't need to be this close if I'm speaking louder. Anyway. Tonight,

[01:01]

We're talking about, we're starting where we left off last time, where Dogen talks about gaining enlightenment. Did everybody study this part? Good. It makes it a lot easier when you have some background. So Dogen says, Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed. Although its light is extensive and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch across. The whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in a dewdrop in the grass in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not disturb the person just as the moon does not disturb the water. A person does not hinder enlightenment just as a dewdrop does not hinder the moon in the sky.

[02:07]

The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. As for the duration of the reflection, you should examine the water's vastness or smallness. and you should discern the brightness or dimness of the heavenly moon." So in the preceding, Dogen says, it's not like the moon reflected in the water. When one side is revealed, the other side is dark. So he's using the same simile, but in a different way. So in the previous, when he was talking about it before, he was talking about the non-reflection, meaning no gap. The moon, it's not like the moon reflected in the water.

[03:13]

When one side is revealed, the other side is dark, meaning whatever you're totally involved with is your whole world, and your world covers the whole universe. That's what he meant before. Suzuki Roshi talks about that a lot. when you're totally involved in your activity, that activity covers the whole universe, even though there are other activities. But it's also reflected here. So here, Dogen talks, he says, gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting in the water. So the moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed.

[04:16]

So moon here, the moon is in Buddhism since the beginning, has always been a metaphor for enlightenment. And of course you find it all throughout. Buddhist literature, the moon, and the moon's reflection. And water is kind of like the person. So water stands for the person. Moon stands for enlightenment. Water is like the person. Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. Enlightenment, you know, is intrinsic, and water is our experiential feeling about ourself and about our life.

[05:28]

We say that a monk is called unsui, or clouds and water, something that's always changing, continually changing and transforming. Enlightenment is like the stable state, but it's also a term for emptiness. So the moon is kind of like a term for emptiness. And so here again we have a Buddha side and ordinary person side. Ordinary person is like the water and the moon is like Buddha. So we are both Buddha and ordinary being. So Buddha is reflected in our activity.

[06:36]

And Buddha is intrinsic to our existence, of course. Buddha is constant and consistent, and ordinary being is changing and never the same from moment to moment. So these are the two sides. and Buddha side is revealed through practice. So he says, gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed. Of course not. the moon doesn't get wet because the moon is independent of the water, even though the water is an aspect of the moon.

[07:44]

And of course, it doesn't make a hole because there's nothing, everything is transparent. So, although the moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed, enlightenment doesn't disturb the person. No matter what kind of experience we have, Buddha is not defiled. Buddha cannot be defiled. But when we talk about defilement, we talk about defilement of ordinary being. Defilement is like greed, ill will, and delusion. These are the defilements which cover the light of Buddha. So Buddha is like the sun.

[08:50]

Buddha's side or enlightenment is like the moon. And the moon, When there are no clouds in the sky, the moon shines quite brightly. But when there are clouds, then the moon doesn't shine, but the moon is always there anyway, whether the clouds are there or not. So sometimes there's a saying, the hazy moon of enlightenment. You see it, and then you don't. It's revealed, and then it's covered. So then there's the very famous, well-known passage. Although its light is extensive and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch across. the whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in a dew drop on the grass, in one drop of water.

[09:52]

So, one drop of water is like each existence. Each existence reflects the whole moon and the whole sky. If you look at each individual drop of water, It reflects the whole moon and the whole sky. So when we talk about big and small, those are just relative ways of thinking. We think in that relative way, but there's no such thing as small or big intrinsically, only in the comparative sense. Yesterday or the day before, in the paper there was an article about this guy who's sailing, who collected the most gene information.

[10:57]

And he has this sailboat and he's sailing around the world examining genes from all these organisms. And he said, we should realize that every time we take a drink of water, we're swallowing thousands and thousands of, or maybe millions of organisms, of living beings. So, the whole moon and the whole sky Although its light is extensive and great, so even no matter how vast it is, the moon is reflected in a puddle an inch across or even smaller. The whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in a dewdrop on the grass. So the whole moon is and the whole sky is like Buddha nature.

[12:07]

Buddha nature and enlightenment are reflected in a dew drop in the grass, in one drop of water. So just one drop of water is like each person, right? So even though the whole moon and the whole sky are reflected, it doesn't mean that you see everything. But it means that whatever you see, whatever you experience, you experience the whole thing. But if you think, I'm experiencing the whole thing, that's not right either. I'm just doing what I'm doing. But when we understand that whatever we encounter is supported by the whole universe, then that's enlightenment. when you actually have that realization. So, you know, if you look at a house and you say, well, point to the house and you say, well, which part is the house?

[13:22]

You say, well, the whole thing is the house, right? But the house is made up of parts. So if you look at the rafters, you can point to the rafters and you say, well, there's the house. Or you can point to the floor and you say, well, there's the house. Or you can point to the window and you can say, there's the house. Because the window contains the whole house. The house contains the windows, and the window is the whole house. The beams are the whole house, because everything is connected to everything else. And there's no house without all the parts. So any place you point, you can say there's the whole house.

[14:26]

So the whole house is reflected in the floor. The whole house is reflected in the window. The whole house is reflected in the beans. The whole universe is reflected in each one of us. So wherever you point, that's where, that's it. So there's no way he can be lost, if you understand this. So he says, enlightenment does not disturb the person, just as the moon does not disturb the water. A person does not hinder enlightenment, just as a dew drop does not hinder the moon in the sky.

[15:29]

It doesn't, we don't, a person does not hinder enlightenment, but there's still hindrance in its expression. It doesn't, of course, you know, enlightenment and the person are not two things. Enlightenment is simply realizing who we are. So, and then he says, the depth of the drop is the height of the moon. So, the depth of the drop means how, according to your understanding, enlightenment is expressed according to your understanding. Not even understanding, according to your, according to our sense of, or according to our letting go, basically.

[16:39]

The more we let go, the more it's revealed. And the more we build up of self or ego, the less it's revealed. So we don't try to gain something. This is the meaning of no gaining idea. There's nothing to acquire. And you can't acquire enlightenment. And you can't acquire freedom. You just, by letting go, freedom reveals itself. Enlightenment is revealed. Maizumi says, you know, you have to search for it before you stop searching. And probably so. You have to, you know, work hard to search for something before you realize that by searching, you're simply blocking.

[17:48]

So by letting go, at some point you realize, well, just let go. This is the secret to zazen and the secret to allowing enlightenment to reveal itself. We say gaining enlightenment, but that's simply a way of speaking. You don't gain enlightenment. You can't gain something that you already have. There's a koan in the Mumonkan about Daitsu Chisho Buddha. Daitsu Chisho Buddha sat for 10 eons, but he never gained enlightenment. So the koan is, why did he sit, he sat so long? Why didn't he gain enlightenment? It was because he was a non-attained Buddha.

[18:54]

So, a person does not hinder enlightenment just as a dew drop does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. So, according to one's letting go, revelation of that light is proportionate to that person's letting go. As for the duration of the reflection, you should examine the water's vastness or smallness, and you should discern the brightness or dimness of the heavenly moon. Well, So the purpose of practice is to reveal this light and let it shine forth. And sometimes it's bright, sometimes it's not quite so bright, sometimes it's dim, sometimes it's dark.

[20:17]

And it's not always consistent. It's like the hazy moon of enlightenment. Sometimes the clouds are drifting by and you only see through a dark glass, darkly. So, what do you think? Yeah, I could.

[21:26]

I guess I haven't disturbed enlightenment. You haven't what? I haven't disturbed enlightenment or... Well, you know, enlightenment, in other words, it's not like you will, it will, It's not like something coming from outside, which is going to change you. It's, so that's the, you know, disturb right here, I think has the feeling of something coming from outside, right? So your own intrinsic enlightenment is not going to disturb you in that sense. It's not going to change, it's not a change from outside, it's a revelation from inside.

[22:34]

So in that sense, the enlightenment does not disturb the water. Yes. It looks like the moon and the water are two different things. But he's saying that it's not two different things. It's just by dividing it that way, he doesn't mean to set up a duality. But when you talk about something, as soon as you start talking about it, you set up a duality. So how do you set up, how do you talk about something without setting up a duality? That's why he talks in this kind of poetic way, because if he were to say something, if he were to say it in a logical way, he would be setting up a duality.

[23:48]

So he's trying very hard not to do that. So he has to use dualistic terms to express the non-duality. But it sounds funny, and this is the way all the koans are. The koans use dualistic terms to express something non-dualistic, and therefore it sounds crazy to our logic. Peter. I appreciate your interpretation of the moon and the water and the light within the person. I've always read this particular piece kind of literally. The moon and the... In other words, when you look at the moon in a drop of water, the moon is so tiny you can barely see it. But yet, you really can't separate them. The moon is right there in the water and they're the same.

[24:49]

And the depth... I've always interpreted the depth of the drop as the height of the moon That's right. So the moon reflected in the water, the drop is still there just as it is, except that it's being enlightened by the moon. That's right. It doesn't matter how high it is really. It's still, yeah, the moon still contains, the water still contains it without being disturbed. Yeah. So you're saying enlightenment can't be attained, but what about

[25:55]

No. No, it can only be revealed. Because compassionate activity is also intrinsic. I've tried to teach people compassionate activity doesn't work. You have to unlock something so that it pours out. Compassionate activity is a state of being. It's not something you do. You know what I mean? It's not like something you add on or pin the tail on the donkey or something. You open up the door and it comes out. So, I don't think it can be attained, but I think it can be unlocked, unleashed. Attainment is an interesting word because it has the feeling of going for something or getting something, you know.

[27:11]

And actually, by compassion, will flow forth when there's not much thought of self. So we're not protecting ourself, we're allowing this openness to identify with not just suffering, but to identify with and be sensitive to the feelings of others. It's very important to be sensitive to the feelings of others. But attainment, I don't like to think of it in terms of attainment.

[28:16]

So the attainment, we use the term attainment, but the attainment is a non-attainment. And actually Kanze in his commentary on the Heart Sutra brings that out. I'm trying to remember exactly where the term attain, samyak sambodhi. Also non-attainment? Also, that's right, also no attainment and no non-attainment. Literally, it means no attainment and no non-attainment. So if it just says no attainment, that's dualistic. So it has to be no attainment, no non-attainment, but we say no attainment. It implies no non-attainment. Yeah. What isn't intrinsic? What is intrinsic?

[29:21]

No, what isn't? Is there anything really that isn't intrinsic? Well, that's a good question. There are things that are not intrinsic. And what is not intrinsic is what we put on ourselves, what we take to ourselves in order to create a persona. But isn't that an illusion? Yeah. We create an illusion. And so that's not intrinsic. What's intrinsic is that which is devoid of illusion or not trying to create an illusion.

[30:26]

In other words, you know, intrinsic is like when you take and when you let go of everything and see what you have, Just drop everything and see what's left. That's intrinsic. But really, if you drop everything and see what you have, what you really have is everything. Well, yes. In that sense, you could say so. But... So to not have anything is to have everything. So in that sense you could say, you might say everything is intrinsic. But it's a kind of funny way of thinking about it.

[31:33]

Because I think it maybe applies to to what's just necessary and not to what's not necessary. But you can make an argument for, well, everything's necessary. How is there a difference between the absolute and the relative? Relatively everything is non-intrinsic in the relative world, but absolutely. Yeah, right. So these are the two truths. One is the relative truth and the absolute truth. So in the absolute truth, yes, everything is intrinsic, but in the experiential truth or relative truth, it's not. I always feel you're just misrepresenting what you say in the absolute law and in the relative, not the opposite.

[32:56]

I always feel like you're just not telling the truth when you say that. Well, why do you say that? You say it as if there are two things. There are, you know. We have to understand that there are two levels of existence, which are not two things. They're not two things and they're not one thing. But when we talk about it, we talk about the two truths. This is Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka understanding of Mahayana Buddhism, that we cannot grasp it without understanding that there are two truths. two levels of that truth. One is the intrinsic, or the absolute truth, and the other is the experiential truth.

[34:10]

So maybe I'm not telling the truth, but this is our understanding. the absolute truth without being in experiential self? You can't do that. So what's the use of talking about it? The way to... that we have... I'm not saying that the experiential truth is not... is inferior. We have to experience everything through the relative truth. That's how we experience everything. You seem to imply that I'm talking about inferior and superior. What am I talking about? You're suggesting some entity that we could imagine.

[35:17]

that's distinguishable from our experience. There is something that's distinguishable from our experience. I don't really want to blather on. I mean, I don't have much more to say. Okay. Alan? You know, which implies. includes everything, but I think you need to discern what's useful for waking up.

[37:04]

And I sort of think that's what you were getting at, you know, in saying that we have to experience things through our body and mind, and there are things that are Well, you know, our experiential life is limited. Our experiential life is limited to seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, seeing, smelling, and so forth, and thinking. And all of those faculties are limited. But they are expressions of intrinsic reality.

[38:06]

But they can never by themselves reach intrinsic reality as it is unless through that the partiality of those senses. They just don't, because the sensory perception is partial. And whatever we bring in through our senses is modified by how we think about things. It's very hard to see everything as it is. So we come closest to seeing things as it is when we let go of opinionatedness, when we let go of partiality, basically when we let go of thinking.

[39:27]

So what is perceived has less of a partial understanding. I find it helpful that word closes, that we can get close. I mean, it's like, what is that mathematical term, asymptotic at the nose or something? Asymptotic. What? Musical? I'm going to try to say it again. we can get close. Our practice is trying to get as close as possible. Every time we get closer, more of the relative emerges or something. But it's helpful to emphasize, for me, close. Close, yeah, that's right. And Dogen talks about this next. that when we think that we understand, we're far away.

[40:33]

So is intuition an experience? Intuition is, the definition of intuition is directly perceiving without the intermediary of thinking. Does it happen through the senses? No. Intuition somehow is touching, I don't know, is a kind of, you know, like when suddenly something knows something without having to have thought about it. It's something like, boom, or like you just, something knows. And then we think about it. And then we create theories. And then we investigate.

[41:37]

But intuition is first, and investigation is second. How is this like or unlike with the new Pope? How is it like or unlike? How is this like or unlike? The new Pope is represented as this spiritual person who believes that everything is intrinsic. I mean, I have a somewhat cynical view that the Pope, unfortunately, tried to overcome it. I don't know what he thinks. But he somehow had this, everything is, all reality is internal. There's a word for it, there was a word that was used, maybe Alan will remember. describing his spiritual orientation as being deeply meditative. Well, I don't know that much.

[42:38]

I really don't know that much about the Pope or that kind of thinking. But in Buddhism, we also say everything is mind only. But it doesn't mean it's something in my mind. I mean, everything is, all things are aspects of big mind. Sojin, it's a quarter after. Thank you. Stand up for one minute. So then, to continue, Dogen says, when the truth does not fill our body and mind, we think that we have enough. When the truth fills our body and mind, we realize that something's missing. Suzuki Roshi, when he talked about beginner's mind,

[43:51]

This was his description, not a description but a comment on which, if you're familiar with it, his well-known statement, in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few. So the more we study and the more we investigate, the more we realize that the less we know. And of course, as things open up, you realize that there's just more and more to understand. And that none of us can really get too far. There's a saying, even Shakyamuni is only halfway. So, you know, the wonderful thing about practice is that we don't have to understand it.

[45:08]

We don't have to understand in order to practice. We can simply, from the beginning, throw ourself into practice. This is why we don't have a practice of stages, where we learn something, and then we learn something else, and one stage is the stepping stone for the next stage. In our practice, everyone practices the same, from the beginning to the end. And it's the same for everyone, but some will understand it, and some will not, and some will understand it better than others, and some will allow practice to open them up. But Dogen says some will

[46:20]

Some will understand, some will not, but it doesn't make any difference whether you understand or not, as long as you can practice. Understanding is good, but it's not everything. What is important is simply to practice. because we entered the realm of non-duality or reality without even knowing it through practice, necessarily. In esoteric Buddhism, There's a kind of, not pantheon, but a number of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

[47:27]

And in the center is Vairojana. And Vairojana is the Buddha of illumination. And Vairochana doesn't really do anything. Vairochana just simply sits. You never see him standing up. He's always sitting. And just emanates light. And all of the Buddhas around Vairochana and Bodhisattvas have functions. But Varajana's only function is to just be in the center and radiate light. So whether we understand or don't understand, when we really do zazen,

[48:45]

We're simply doing the practice of Vajracana Buddha. There's not much to understand. I mean, if you really did understand, it would be something. It is beyond our words and beyond our thinking. So it's intrinsic and experiential at the same time. It's the absolute reality and the mundane reality at the same time. That's why we say that Zazen is enlightened activity. Whether we get it or don't or not, So then he says, when, for example, when we view the four directions from a boat on the ocean where no land is in sight, we see only a circle and nothing else.

[50:00]

No other aspects are apparent. This is like when Dogen went to China. He kind of got this feeling when he was on the boat, because when you are on a boat and no land or anything, you can see, you turn around, you see a whole circle. And you can see that the ocean seems circular. But he says, no, circular is one way of looking at it. But when a fish looks at the ocean, it's not circular. Every species sees water in a different way and experiences water in a different way. He says, for example, when we view the four directions from a boat on the ocean where no land is in sight, we see only a circle and nothing else.

[51:08]

No other aspects are apparent. However, this ocean is neither round nor square and its qualities are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It seems just circular as far as our eyes can reach at the time. In other words, we see everything, we see things through the limitations of our sensory input, accessibility. And then we make up a story about what things are. The 10,000 dharmas are likewise like this. Although an ordinary life, an enlightened life, assume many aspects, we only recognize and understand through practice what the penetrating power of our vision can reach. He talks about pure life and dusty life.

[52:14]

When he says ordinary life and enlightened life, I think that's, his terms are dusty life and pure life. So in order to appreciate the 10,000 dharmas, we should know that although they may look round or square, the other qualities of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety. Furthermore, other universes lie in all directions. It is so not only around ourselves, but also right here and in a single drop of water." So, you know, even though we don't fully understand, we can still practice. That's his point here. And even though the ocean is wide and deep, we can still swim around and play in it.

[53:28]

So even though we don't really understand or know what this life is, we can do it. We have to do it. Without understanding it, really. But the more we make an effort or to let go, understanding will reveal itself. The four views of body, The four views of a body of water. The fish see it as a palace. Celestial beings see it as a jewel ornament. Hungry ghosts see it as pus and blood. Human beings see it as water.

[54:38]

None of them is real or complete. We only see things limited by our capacity. So this is the experiential world. So why we call this the experiential world or the Saha world, it's the world of partiality. It's the world of separation and individuation. And through individuation, it's very hard to see the whole. Very hard to see the whole, because we can't see the forest for the trees. That's our big problem. So the forest is the intrinsic, and the trees are the specific.

[55:40]

And we live in a specific world. We live in a specific realm. It's very hard for us to see the intrinsic reality of this experiential world. And that's what Dogen is trying to help us to see. So, When we talk about pure and impure, pure means non-duality. Impure means duality. So impure means to see the trees without seeing the whole forest. Pure observation of reality is to see the whole forest, including the trees. So the trees is where we practice.

[56:55]

That's where our practice takes place. And our practice takes place in this world of duality. So to be able to a practice in the world of duality with our understanding of non-duality. The pure practice includes impure practice. So when we talk about pure and impure, it gets very little hairy because we tend to think of impurity in a different way. So when we can see that the parts belong to the whole, that's pure practice.

[58:08]

When we can see that the chair, as Thich Nhat Hanh likes to say, the chair is made up of all the parts, all of the things that are not chair. Because of all the things that are not chair, there's a chair. So in this sense, of course, everything is intrinsic. So there's the truth of the trees and how they relate to each other. And that's the realm that we practice in. But we also practice in the realm of all the trees belong to each other and create each other. So, is that your hand raised, Dean?

[59:50]

Yeah. Okay. So, we live in this world. There's an airplane up there, so you have to get through it. So, we also practice with with a possibility of what we don't see, because if what we see are the trees, because we live in this real world. No, in the tree world. In the tree world. But there's all this other stuff that we don't see, like all those rocks in that garden that we don't see. We maintain a practice with with what's in front of us, right? That's right. So we light up the corner of our world, and that's connected to everything.

[60:55]

So you don't have to spread yourself out over the whole world. All you have to do is take care of what you're doing, and if you do that thoroughly, that's connected to everything. The window only has to be the window. It doesn't have to be the walls. It doesn't have to be the floor. All it has to do is totally be the windows. The door just has to be totally the door. And then it's playing its part in the whole house. The door is the whole house. But the door is the door. But the door can't say, mine is the only truth. Mine is the only what? Truth. In other words, the door can't, even if you only shine your corner, you can't say this corner is the only, is the whole world, is the only thing, right?

[62:06]

Well, what do you mean is the only thing? Well, isn't that kind of like how you get war, is this one person saying, there's only seven rocks, and the other person saying, no, there are eight rocks. Well, of course, yeah, that's partiality. So the door realizes that it's part of the whole house. But if the door just thinks, well, I'm the door, and I'm... That's all we need. That's right. That's the problem that we have in the world. That's the second line. Yeah, when the truth... We think we have the truth. That's right. So, yes. Yeah. If the window being totally a window When the window is totally the window and it realizes its entire self.

[63:07]

That's the truth-filling body and mind. We know that something's missing, right? When the truth... Why is something missing? Well, that's more like, you know, metaphor only goes so far. That's like when we feel that we have enough understanding. It's a problem. Further down, where it says, although ordinary life and enlightened life have so many aspects, we only recognize, etc. Okay, we only recognize and understand through practice what the penetrating power of our vision can reach. So, I thought that through practice perhaps we can go beyond what vision can reach. Go beyond. We can go make, well, yeah.

[64:23]

Go beyond our limited understanding. Is that what you mean? Yes, we can only go as far as the limitation of our understanding. But he doesn't say that you're limited to the limitation. In other words, wherever you are, that's your limitation. So our effort is to not be bound by the limitation. or at least to understand the limitation. Enlightenment is to understand your limitation. And when you know this is the limitation, then you can open up to broader understanding.

[65:27]

That's what he's actually saying here, actually. When the truth fills our body and mind, we know there's something missing. So, when the truth fills our body and mind, we know that what our limitation is, that we have limitation. But we're not necessarily limited by our limitation. But at the same time, you know, to know, well, this is as much as I can understand. And settle down in that and practice with that. That's okay. That's, you know, as I said, humility means to know exactly where your place is in relation to everything else. You don't think you know more, you don't think you know less. you know just where you are. And so there's a possibility of allowing more knowledge or understanding to prevail.

[66:43]

I think that's very important. You know, I don't know is probably the three most important words. Because when we say, I don't know, it means that we open our mind. I don't know. It clears the mind. And when the mind is clear, something can come up. But if we say, oh, I know, or I want to know, Then we kind of cloud the mind and actually block something from coming up. But I don't know, it's like stepping back and opening the mind and allowing something to come up. I think those three words are very important because that's true humility because it allows you to just be in the space where you are. without trying to get ahead, or thinking less of yourself or more of yourself.

[67:53]

You can't be in a better position. And we also say, don't know mind is true mind. Yeah. I don't know, but I'm hearing there's this water analogy in both of these pieces, and it seems to be describing these different levels, these levels of understanding. But we're starting out on the first page in sort of the enlightenment place, and it's The water may not notice the reflection of the moon, and it may actually see the moon as something separate from itself.

[69:04]

But perhaps the practice of zazen is, one of the first stages is actually noticing the waves, being comfortable. So he's using the analogy of the ocean, which is very vast. But the very last line, he calls it that, and this is just like the drop of water. It's the same thing. Yeah, I think that's a good way of talking about it. We have to be able to see the moon reflected in the disturbance as well as in the calmness.

[70:06]

That's very important. But when you come to a calm place, then it's very easy to see the moon reflected in the water. And when the water is disturbed, then all the waves reflect the moon. So, you know, there's Gensha, was a Zen master in the Tang Dynasty. Someone asked him, what do you do with a clear mirror? Clear mirror is like, No disturbance, just seeing everything very clearly as it is, right? So what do you do with a clear mirror, with a pure mirror? He says, smash it into a thousand pieces. And then each piece reflects like the dew drops on the grass, like the waves, like all of the aspects of your busy life.

[71:22]

are disturbances, so to speak. Disturbance is a kind of technical term. It doesn't mean disturbed. It means agitated or moving or, you know, circulation. And each activity is like that. So each activity should be reflecting the moon. It doesn't have to be. That's why we say daily life is practice. All the activity of your daily life is practice, because if you're really practicing, then every aspect of your life reflects the moon. Zazen does it with a calm water, but your daily life is movement. So if that moon is shining in a little mud puddle, or if I'm at ease, it's shining, if I'm

[72:45]

Not at ease. It's shining. If I look at Greg, it's shining. I see Greg, but I see shining or you or anything around. Is there any absolute or relative? Everything is absolute and everything is relative. Could we just drop it? No. How will you drop it? Don't need it.

[73:52]

To what? Don't need it. Don't eat it. Don't need it. Don't need it. Oh, okay. Yeah. What do you need? Good. You know, you don't need it. That's right. But at the same time, we need it. So it's good to know that we don't need it. So since we don't need it, we can discuss it.

[74:59]

Nancy? We talk about ancestors, right? Yes, we do. as opposed to heaven and saints. Wait a minute, wait a minute. What? We're talking about ancestors. And other religions talk about saints and heaven. Yes. But we talk about ancestors. I was trying to incorporate what you're talking about tonight in terms of ancestors. And I don't know whether this was I was making it too simplistic, but I was thinking, well, everything that comes to us, including thought, in a way, thoughts and perceptions and everything that we experience now, could be considered an ancestor in a way.

[76:07]

I don't think that makes, does it? Does it make sense? Some say yes, some say no. Everything is an ancestor? Well, in the Vimalakirti Sutra, we were reading that a couple of years ago in the Dharma group, and it was saying there that bodhisattvas are even rocks in a stream bumping together. These things can inform us. And I guess Bodhisattvas can be considered ancestors. I'm trying to put a net around it so that my mind can grasp this. But I was thinking everything is history and I appreciate this ancestor idea. And even a thought that comes to me right as I speak is history as my mind works to express it to you.

[77:15]

I want to ask you a question. Do you think that what we're doing here is history? No. This is the koan. It's not history. It's maybe a term as everything comes to us and is us being now. There is a point where we We digest that, you know, and disseminate it as we, because we're alive. We are? That's pretty hard. Are we? Are we alive? As opposed to dead. Yeah, I mean, actually, that's another koan, isn't it? I'm just, I don't understand why you're bringing ancestors into the, into the thing.

[78:19]

I hesitated, and I thought, I wonder if you'll wonder why. I just, it seems like, I don't know why you're doing that. I just, I'm just trying to figure out, and then you're talking about everything as an ancestor? I just wonder, you know. I mean, if it's a term that can be, I'm not familiar with Vimalakirti Sutra, that part, so I don't know.

[78:51]

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