Yesterday I talked about Joshu and the Hermits, which was mentioned as one of the examples in Dogon's Fukan Zazengi. And today I'm going to talk about Gutei's One Finger, which is another example that Doge has as means to enlightenment, inexplicable means to enlightenment, excuse me, to realization of enlightenment. is case number three in the Mumonkan.

[01:26]

I'm going to use Japanese names for the Chinese. Whenever Gutei Osho was asked about Zen, he simply raised his finger. Once a visitor asked Gutei's boy attendant, what does your master teach? The boy too raised his finger. Hearing of this, Gutei cut the boy's finger off with his knife. The boy screamed with pain. Screaming with pain began to run away. Gutei called him. And when he turned around, Gutei raised his finger. The boy suddenly became enlightened. When Gutei was about to pass away, he said to his assembled monks, I obtained one-finger Zen from Tenryu and used it all my life, but still did not exhaust it.

[02:33]

When he had finished saying this, he entered into eternal nirvana. And Mumon, in his comment, says, the enlightenment of Gutei and of the boy does not depend on the finger. If you understand this, Tenryu, Gutei, the boy, and you, yourself, are all run through with one skewer. This is a very gory story. Shish kevali. Then in Mumon's verse, he says, Well, it's interpreted various ways. Gutei made a fool of old Tenryu, emancipating the boy with a single slice. Just as Kyorei cleaved Mount Kazan to let the Yellow River run through. Nyogen Senzaki has a little different translation.

[03:40]

He says, Gutei cheapens the teaching of Tenryu emancipating the boy with a knife. Compared to the Chinese god who pushed aside a mountain with one hand, old Gutei, it's a poor imitation. But that's also a kind of shadow way of praising by denigration. I think we have to be Careful about Zen stories, because Zen stories are stories. We should not confuse them with the Bible, which are also stories. Gute cheapens the teaching of Tenryu, emancipating the boy with a knife.

[04:44]

Compared to the Chinese god who pushed aside a mountain with one hand, Old Gutei is a poor imitator. Do you want me to read it again? OK. How is that praise? Oh, well, it's subtle. When you read, you can interpret it in various ways. It's part of Chinese culture. You kind of put down your children so that The evil spirits listening won't come and get your precious child.

[05:45]

They'll think it's a worthless something, so they'll go somewhere else. It might be related to that. Thank you. Affacement, actually. Affacement is a very prominent part of other cultures in America. Cultivating ego is an American characteristic, whereas other cultures, effacement is characteristic. So when you understand, when that becomes part of the culture, then this kind of way of speaking becomes easy to understand. Also, it seems like just by comparing him to somebody who moved a mountain. His finger is easier to move than a mountain, but it's the same category of grand deeds. Yeah, I think he's saying that too.

[06:48]

So, if you don't believe that he cut off the finger, then the story loses some of its impact. But if you do believe that he cut off the finger, then you're kind of falling for facts. So, we should, I say should, we should look at this, take the story in as the boy got his finger cut off, but you don't have to believe it. Stories gain... they come from someplace. There's some fact, some basis for a story, but it's the story that's important, not the fact.

[07:55]

This is the problem with people believing literally in the Bible, which is a blasphemy of the Bible to believe in it literally. It's telling a story. Who cares what the facts are? The main point is what we learn from the fable. So these are Zen fables based on something. We shouldn't get fooled or get drawn into worrying about the facts. If they teach us something, that's the important thing. So, it's the same with nonsense cutting the cat in two. We should read the story as nonsense actually cutting the cat.

[09:00]

Whether you want to believe that he cut the cat or not, it's up to you. These are not good examples. It's also like the fifth patriarch cutting off his arm, or the second patriarch cutting off his arm. Did he really cut off his arm? I mean, it's a very bizarre story. Standing out there in the snow, you know, with his arm in his hand. Strange. These are not good examples for gullible people. Maybe I'll do that too. In China, you know, monks used to cut off the end of their finger and also burn off the end of the tip of their finger.

[10:06]

Overzealous monks. Taking this kind of thing, this kind of example, too literally. Because of this particular story? Well, you know, if you're a true monk, then you will make this kind of sacrifice. Because your body is not worth that much. And so, you know, you kind of show your disdain, or your, not disdain, but detachment. I don't want to answer too many questions. Right now, I haven't really gotten into the spirit world. Actually renounce posterities later. Maybe he eschewed them. Who did? Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha. Yeah, Buddha actually did renounce austerities. That's right. Yes? I know several people who, sitting in session, have injured themselves permanently.

[11:15]

And it was with the attitude of, well, I'm going to make this sacrifice. Is that any different from this story? Well, one shouldn't necessarily make the sacrifice that way. I think it is different. This is something very deliberate. Whereas you don't enter Sachine thinking, well, I'm going to wreck my knees, you know, on purpose. I mean, you know, every engagement or every profession has its Risk. Everything does. If you're a carpenter, you might fall off the roof. If you're sitting down at a computer typing all day, you might ruin your eyes or your fingers will get carpal tunnel syndrome. Everything that you do has a risk.

[12:18]

And in Zazen, there's a risk. So be careful. We used to push people more, you know, yeah, but I encourage people but there's a line where you have to make a decision I Encourage you sit still but you have to make a decision and so there's no blame for moving You know, there's no no criticism or blame for what you can move as much as you want There are Zendos where they say don't move and if you move you have to leave That's not our attitude Make the right effort. But only you will know what that is. And so when it comes to, is this going to be harmful, move. Take another position. My attitude when I was

[13:23]

learning how to sit was to just push myself all the way through. And I liked that attitude. And it was very difficult. And I went through lots of pain. And I can remember, you know, stumbling around because my legs were so tied up. and, you know, knee problems and so forth. And my attitude is just to keep going with through everything. But I don't force that off on you. I say if you want to do that, that's good. But you don't have to do that. Because I don't want you to say you said that I should do this. And now like what Nevertheless, I would come away feeling that's where your heart is.

[14:32]

You go out to the person who does that. That what? You go out to the person who does that, who pushes through. I do. My heart goes out to that person. And to the person who doesn't. Yes, also. Have a cup of tea. You know that third? Joshu was in the monastery, and two monks came to the monastery. And Joshu said, have you had your meal? And the monk said, yes. He said, have a cup of tea. And he said to the other monk, have you had your meal? The monk said, no. He said, have a cup of tea. And then the attendant said, how come you gave him a cup of tea when he said yes, and you gave him a cup of tea when he said no? So she said, head monk, have a cup of tea. OK.

[15:33]

quality to the story of the figure or the cat? It is violent. I don't know if it's bloody. It doesn't matter. I imagine it's a black ball. The radical quality is what's important, not the bloody quality, but the radical. startling quality. Yes? You said something yesterday about two different kinds of time. Continuous incremental time. Yes. Discontinuous time. Yeah. And I wonder if these violent episodes could somehow be symbolic of a radical break. Yes. Literally radical. Startling. Right. the thinking mind, which creates time, to cut off the discriminating activity of mind.

[17:12]

And this is what brings people to realization. That's what the stone hitting the bamboo is. cut off Kyogen's discriminating mind. And it's like the two sides of the ocean, when the island was taken out, come together. Or it's like the Chinese god slicing the mountain in half so that the Yellow River can come through. That's the story. So, Gutei, in Gutei's time, he lived in the time of Rinzai.

[18:21]

And the monks were persecuted at that time. The emperor, you know, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism, the Buddhist, the Confucianists, and the Taoists were all vying for the emperor's attention. And so each one would whisper secrets in the emperor's ear about the other two. palace intrigue, and every once in a while, when one of them got the upper hand, the others would be persecuted. So, there were many persecutions of the Buddhists, and there was an emperor named Wu, who was a different Wu emperor than Bodhidharma's Wu emperor. He turned the Buddhists out of the temples, out of the monasteries.

[19:27]

Thousands and thousands of Buddhist monks were turned out of the monasteries. And the Zen monks went to the hills, went to the mountains, and established their practice places in the mountains. And the Zen monks thrived on that condition because they didn't have the same kind of dependency on large temples and donors and so forth. They were more self-sufficient. And so when they went to the mountains and established themselves, but a lot of the monks were living in huts. So Gutei was living in a little hut in the mountains doing Zazen. And one day, a nun came along, her name was Jisai, her name was Jisan, Jisan, which I think it means something like true world.

[20:36]

And she came upon Gutei sitting there in his hut doing Zazen. And she walked around him three times. which is a very formal kind of salutation to a Buddha. In Buddha's time, monks would come, when they wanted to talk to him, they'd walk, circumambulate three times, and then bow. People do that around stupas, too, nowadays, or after Buddha's time. So she came, and she walked around, circumambulated him three times, and threw her staff on the ground. And she said, if you can give me a turning word, I'll take off my hat also. And he was rather startled. And so she walked around again three times.

[21:42]

And she says, well, and he still couldn't say anything. And he says, she started to leave. And he said, well, wait a minute, why don't you just relax and take off your hat and stay the night, you know, it's getting dark outside. And she looked at him, turned around and walked out. And he was really crushed by this encounter. And so he said to himself, I think I'll leave here and go find a teacher. So he got himself ready, and then that night, He had a dream. And in the dream, a spirit of some kind appeared before him and said, don't leave yet. Somebody's coming. A teacher is coming this way.

[22:43]

Wait for him to come. So he said to himself, OK. So he sat down and waited for a couple of days later. Tenryu arrived. Tenryu was a very good teacher at that time, at the times. And so when he saw Tenryu, he said, this must be the person. So they sat down and talked. And he asked Tenryu, what is the essence of the Buddhist teaching? And Tenryu went. Gutei realized his enlightened mind. And so, ever since that time, Gutei, when someone asked him a question, would use Tenryu's one finger. Hey, isn't that cheating?

[23:44]

I mean, he cut off the kid's finger for doing the same thing. Nobody ever mentions that. That's really strange. That's part of the story that I've never heard anybody say anything about. Yes? Well, my father acted exactly the same way. And when I'm called upon, he always used to say, do as I say. Not as I do. Yes? Maybe when Tenryu did it and Gutei got it, That was one thing, but then when the boy did it, maybe he was just parroting in some way without really getting it. That's what was happening. Well, that's what happened.

[25:02]

He took off his finger, which wasn't there. But if you took off your finger, which wasn't there, you wouldn't like it. But at the same time, I mean, we look at it as he was punishing the boy. I don't think it's necessary to say that he was, you know, because, like you said, that he cut off the boy's finger for doing the same thing. Well, it's an interesting point. Well, I think that the point that you bring up is a good point in that, is this punishment or is it doing him a favor?

[26:09]

There's a little koan that revolves around that. Is this punishment or a gift? We see it as a gift, but it was also a hard one. It goes all the way to the heart of things, to the very marrow. Gautier held up his finger, and that was when he was enlightened.

[27:18]

So we don't even know quite what happened then, but maybe Gautier was holding up his finger for the boy, too. I mean, maybe it was both their fingers or something. Yes. Right. The finger is the same as the fist. And when we sit in Zazen, our whole body is the finger.

[28:23]

And whether it's good or bad, We don't know. That is the one.

[29:56]

If you knew what this breath really was, then you'd take away all those layers immediately. Well, that's one of the most extreme instances, isn't it? When that happens? Just sit up straight. Catherine? I'm very struck by... Of course. What touched me in the story was thinking about the possible state of mind of the boy at the moment when he held up a finger. What about his mother? No, no, before it got cut off. I was thinking about that... that...

[31:02]

I mean, it was incredibly presumptuous of him. And there had to be something in him that was ready. It struck me as an expression of his longing. And that it was a natural response to a situation that he overstepped a line. And it was also a sign of a kind of readiness. And I like what you're saying about happens to us, which feels like something really terrible, is sometimes clearing the way, sometimes the thing that will remove the last veil or prepare us to remove the last veil. And I think how at each point in my life as I go through a veil of suffering of some kind and come out in a clearer place, and then I have this brief moment of really lacking my life

[32:04]

and sometimes move into a presumptuousness. I mean, I'm here, I've arrived. And at that moment, crash, and then the rug gets pulled out under again, and it's even more violent and distressing and whatever than the first time. And it's sort of like we keep being given what we need and also what we can handle. And it feels sometimes as bad as if And what you need then is somebody, when you start running away screaming, is somebody to call you and say, wait. And it's just that whole story seems like this wonderful parable for what a teacher can be in that moment when you are running away screaming. Yeah, that's right. I agree. more painful experiences have been great teachers.

[33:09]

But I also think we have to be careful because if we're not really clearly seeing, then we can use that as a way of sort of justifying or excusing harmful conduct. And sometimes teachers screw up and do things that are hurtful. And if the student is able to take that and learn from it and grow and be more insightful, that's a wonderful thing. And it's good for the student. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the teacher was acting in an enlightened way. Always. Well, life doesn't have guarantees except death and taxes.

[34:14]

And... And America. And... It's dangerous and interacting in this way is dangerous and one has to be very careful. And there has to be a certain amount of trust and you should be able to feel that. your intuition should be at work. And if you feel that the teacher is just aggrandizing their ego, or doesn't know what they're doing, or leave, go someplace else.

[35:17]

But if you're going to stay, then even though you may have some doubt, you should clarify your doubts so that you always know where you are. But sometimes you don't. When you don't, you always come back to yourself. You should always come back to yourself anyway. The teacher, I can remember Suzuki Roshi saying things to me that put me off. And I said, I'm going to keep practicing in spite of you. But putting me off didn't mean that he did something wrong. It's just that he put me in a position to test my own practice. He's always putting me in a position to test my own practice, whether I could stand on my own feet or not.

[36:22]

So I think that's a good teacher. Not one that keeps wanting to bring you in, but one that keeps making you stand on your own feet? I had someone say to me, I had lost my job, and I was feeling bad about it, and so forth. And this friend said to me, well, you did it again, didn't you? And immediately all of these sort of defenses and justifications and explanations all came up, and I went, oh. you know, thank you very much. And it was a statement that on the surface, you know, was really kind of a hurtful thing to say, but actually really got to the point. And you're exactly right. I think that what made that possible was trust. So in Mumad's comment,

[37:28]

It says, the enlightenment of Gutei and of the boy does not depend on the finger. We shouldn't use the finger as a kind of totem. As Akinroshi says, it shouldn't be seen as a totem, you know, or some... The finger is not the point, right? The finger... We shouldn't look at the finger as if it was the moon. If you understand this, then Tenryu, Gutei, the boy, and you yourself are all run through one skewer. Or in other words, there's a thread that runs through. So Gutei made a fool of old Tenryu, maybe making, maybe going far beyond Tenryu is one way of interpreting that.

[38:31]

Emancipating the boy with a single slice, just as Kyorei, the mountain god, cleaved Mount Kasan to let the Yellow River run through. The Yellow River was building up, you know, and there was this big mountain in the way, and it was getting ready to flood, so the mountain god went, and cut it in two so that the water could come through. That's the story, old legend. So I like thinking of Gute's finger as the body sitting in Zazen, expressing one-pointed totality. This is Ichigyo Zamae, One Act Samadhi.

[39:38]

Samadhi of just one thing, totally. This one thing totally covers the universe. If you want to know everything or experience everything, the world is too vast and wide to experience it in all its particulars. But if you concentrate on one thing and do one thing thoroughly and merge with the one thing that you're doing, that covers the whole universe. No need to leave for the dusty lands. just find it right where you are, moment by moment. This is Kute's finger. As I said before, Suzuki Roshi used to say, in America you say kill two birds with one stone, but in Zen we say just kill one bird

[40:44]

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