Well, we called this a class, but I don't really... What I want to do, there were three things that came up last night that I wanted to talk about. And this is our last meeting together, actually, before the end of the science period, except for the Shisoka. So I wanted to say something about these three things and discuss them. The first one is about saying good things about Zazen and raising our expectations. That's one thing. Another thing is tradition.

[01:06]

And another one is about the summer practice period. So those are three things I just wanted to say something about, and we can discuss them. The first one is about raising expectations about the benefits of zazen and expectations. about, you know, divine light and so forth. How was that? Radiant. Radiant light, yes. So, you know, Suzuki Roshi never promised anybody anything. Period. That was his teaching. He never said, if you sit Zazen, wonderful things will happen. If you sit Zazen, this or that. He just said, sit Zazen, and Zazen will happen.

[02:09]

That's all. Just sit Zazen to sit Zazen. Period. But here we have these wonderful Dogen and Master Hongzi, to run across Master Hong Zi and his wonderful descriptions of Zazen, you know, gives us this, you know, kind of mystical expectation. Now I myself have always felt like what I was doing in Zazen is what he describes. And when I saw his, when I first saw him translated, in a different book a long time ago. And this is, you know, exactly what I experienced. But then when this book came out recently, you know, I thought, well, we should all share this wonderful material, you know.

[03:12]

But I could see that it gives people expectations. And then they sit there and they say, why is this happening to me? All I get is, you know, my legs hurt, and nothing wonderful happens. So, you know, I can see why Suzuki Roshi avoided giving people any expectation of anything, because he started thinking, well, something great should happen to me, you know, like he says. Why isn't it happening? And I can't tell you why it's not happening. In a way, this material is wonderful, but in another way, it's not so good for us. Because then we start expecting something. Not everybody, but I mean, we start thinking of Zazen as being something wonderful and brilliant.

[04:15]

This is all true, but if you start talking about it, then it can be a problem. Or if you start expecting something, it can be a problem. So, Suzuki Roshi's way of teaching Zazen was really dry. Yes? But we are excited that there is a benefit to some people who are experiencing that, because people who are experiencing something like that, it helps them realize, ah, yes, you did hear that. Yeah, some verification. That's right. So anyway, there's two sides. So I just want to say that just don't expect anything in Zazen. Just sit Zazen, for the sake of Zazen, whatever happens. And that's really what Zazen is about. Just for whatever happens, is what it is.

[05:19]

And you cannot judge it. You can't say, oh, this was a good Zazen period. No, this was a bad Zazen period. That's just judgment. That's just your opinion. You don't know, actually, whether you had a good Zazen period or not, actually. Also, my feeling was when I read a text that gets me too excited or too many expectations, I feel like, oh, this is not the one for me. Because if it doesn't already sort of talk about what I experienced, then I know it's not really what I'm supposed to be working on, in a way. And I can appreciate it, but I look for, you know, kind of... I mean, I can feel comfortable with it, but then I really wait for the teaching or the text that really feels like the same, so that if you respond to it, then, you know, it's fine.

[06:24]

And if you don't, you just... Well, it's true that different people respond to different things. Yeah, and so you have to teach them all, it seems. And yet, you know, then some people feel excluded by one and some by another. Well, it's true that some people respond to this sort of understanding. Other people don't. Yes? Who else? Oh, yeah, Jeff. I was wondering about the use of tea. Tea? Yeah, I read recently in The Way of Zen by Alan Watts that people used to say that the taste of Zen and the taste of tea are the same. Well, that's a different story. I mean, a different subject. We can discuss that at some point. I don't know, I found it very satisfying that when I was drinking tea that I was starting to have all these problems. But smoking it also makes a difference. Well, caffeine has its place. I think the only problem with what you were saying, Wendy, is that I think sometimes people do respond

[07:25]

these wonderful descriptions. They respond and say, oh, that's why I want to do this. That's right. I want to do this because it's so wonderful. And that's what I said. Yes, I get too excited when they get involved. And they hear other people saying, oh, I'm a list out. All this happens. And then there's those bunches of us that don't seem to have clouds and silver linings. I am so grateful that I was sort of an old lady when I started and so I already knew that probably wasn't how it would be, so I didn't get disappointed. But even still, I remember those texts that gave me the sense that I was going to do this and if I did it carefully for a period of time, By God, I was going to be perfect and feel that perfectness forevermore and nothing was ever going to interrupt me.

[08:49]

But that's actually what I said too. If you get too excited by it, probably it's not for you. So that's why I started. Of course, getting excited by it is what often brings people in and gets them started. Well, in the 60s, early 60s, there were a lot of teachers who came and they were giving people a lot of expectation about Kensho and enlightenment. And that was the goal. And they pushed, you know, in Sashins, they pushed people real hard to get Kensho. And they'd go around shouting and hitting with a stick, you know, a lot of excitement going on. And Suzuki Roshi, was very critical of that kind of excited expectation, giving people this expectation that you have to strive for Kensho.

[09:56]

And really, sitting hard is good, but not for Kensho. Just to sit strongly for the sake of sitting completely, for its own sake, but not for the sake of getting some enlightenment experience. And he was criticized by a lot of people. But little by little, these people stopped doing that. And you don't find that going on very much anymore, pushing for Kensho and pushing for enlightenment experiences, because it didn't work very well. People were getting all these expectations about enlightenment. They were, you know, all sitting in full lotus, you know, when they first started sitting and, you know, going to real extremes and ruining their legs and they had to all back off and start, you know, taking it easy.

[11:00]

And Suzuki Roshi's way was daily practice. A lot of people were going from one sasheen to another, sasheen hoppers. It was, it was sasheen hopping, you know. And daily practice didn't mean anything to them because that was like mundane, kind of everyday stuff. They wanted the real push so they could get into enlightenment. And I haven't seen any of those people that I knew who actually achieve that. And most of them stopped practicing. And people would criticize Suzuki Roshi because they said, well, he didn't talk about enlightenment, which is not true. He talked about enlightenment, but he said, enlightenment is not the difficult thing. You can attain enlightenment without too much difficulty.

[12:04]

But the difficult thing is how to keep your practice pure. So he didn't put the emphasis on enlightenment. He put the emphasis on practice, on daily practice, on continuous practice. So people used to think that he wasn't interested in enlightenment, which is not true at all, because enlightenment, of course, is through practice. So instead of putting the emphasis on achievement, he put it on how you do something. Instead of putting the emphasis on the brilliant flowers, he put the emphasis on how you dig into the ground. So he always kept the practice very clean and bare and without promises. Just dig in the ground. If you just dig in the ground, flowers will come by themselves.

[13:10]

Don't force the flowers. Don't look for the flowers. But if you continue to turn over the ground, that's all you need to know. So, if when people practice in this way, it's very grounding practice. No pun intended. And people practice for a long time. And their practice becomes very stable. And they don't become disappointed because they don't get what their idea was. If enlightenment matched your idea, there wouldn't be enlightenment. Yes? So you said you're interested in how to do things. So how do you discern how to give this kind of terminology, this kind of teaching to people to whom it is useful?

[14:22]

I don't know that yet. I think those people who... I think that this teaching isn't really about expectation. I think it's just about what you're doing, really. But we have some idea about that. What gets in the way is not what he's saying, but what our idea about it is. If you really look at what he's saying and not form some idea, some image, then I think it's okay. and just realize that this is what's actually happening. But it's poetic, you know? Very poetic. And metaphorical. So, I think you have to understand it that way. And in the Pure Land, why is there such an emphasis on the Western Paradise?

[15:32]

Oh yeah. What about it? What about the Western Paradise? Yes, that's right. It's like being born in heaven. Yes. Well, we don't talk about that. You know, Suzuki Roshi never talked about what happens after you die. He never talked about reincarnation or rebirth or anything like that. He just talked about being present moment by moment. That's all. That's the best we got. Yeah, that's all. If you're present moment by moment, everything's taken care of. You don't have to worry about the Western Paradise. I just don't know where the partner would be. Well, there are different ways to approach things.

[16:35]

And that's very old teaching. Western paradigms, it's, you know, very old approach to Buddhism. And people who practice Zen don't usually, aren't usually, you know, interested in that approach, more like pure land Buddhists. So it's another tradition. But people were curious about it, you know, and so... But I think that even pure land Buddhists realize that it's not some place, you know, 20,000 miles away, but it's where you are, you know. So we don't deny the, you know, like the sixth ancestor didn't deny the pure land.

[17:38]

He just said it's, but the pure land is not someplace, you know, 50,000 miles away. It's when you get rid of greed, anger, and delusion, it's right there. This is always, you know, get rid of greed and, well, delusion. Nirvana, it's the Pure Land, it's the Western Paradise, it's whatever you want to call it. They're just names. It's the Pure Land of Radiant Light. It's just different names for the same thing. It seems like trying to get a practice pure is endless. A practice what? Trying to keep our practice pure. Pure, yes. Because I was just thinking about the old will. We want to do good, but we've got an idea about what good is. So we have to compost ourselves.

[18:43]

Well, for Suzuki Roshi, pure practice means non-dualistic practice. Purity is non-duality. So, I think it's fine to read this stuff and be inspired by it. And there's a lot there. I mean, it's kind of wonderful because every word, you know, has, you can, each word is so loaded with meaning. As a practice guide, I think it's wonderful, but I just want to say that when you sit zazen, it's just sitting zazen, and whatever happens is whatever happens. And if you start expecting something, then it's a problem.

[19:49]

As soon as you start to expect something, it's a problem. And the other thing is that came up with tradition. And I want to say something just about the shosan ceremony. This shosan ceremony, the way it's set up, it's set up in different ways, actually. One way is to use a chair and to have everybody bow and then be on their knees kind of supplicate. But that's not my favorite way of doing it. I like to sit on the chair because, like last night, if I was standing up, it would have been two and a half hours standing up, which would have been a little bit long for me. I've been shifting from one foot to the other or something.

[20:50]

But usually everybody comes and they bow while one person is talking and two people come around and bow. And then they wanted a time to come and talk. But I simplified it by saying, we all bow together. So it made it more equal. I like it when it's more equal, rather than setting up the abbot, you know, and having people bow to the abbot. So, and usually when I do the ceremony, I have the people stand, rather than being down on their knees. So that I'm sitting, but they're standing. And so it doesn't have this feeling of being down on your knees. So, I myself, you know, when we say tradition, tradition means a lot of different things, right? There's a lot of different traditions. And there are traditions which are very simple, and there are traditions which are very elaborate.

[21:57]

I tend myself toward the simplicity. So I have a lot of sympathy toward Roberto's comment, actually, because I myself prefer when it feels more equal and more simple. And I remember Suzuki Roshi doing it, him sitting in Zazen, and then the person who asked the question, he was sitting on the floor in Zazen, and the person who asked the question would come and sit in Seiza, and they would do it that way. And then I remember Richard Baker standing up, actually, with a stick. It's often, commonly done with a kiyosaku. And the person comes right up. Close. You're lucky. So you can hit them if you don't like them. I thought you hit them if you did like them.

[23:00]

Well, 30 blows if you like them and 30 blows if you don't. So there are a lot of different ways of doing it and I myself like it. better when the feeling is not so high and low, when there's not that big discrepancy. Tradition comes in various forms and we receive the tradition and then little by little we create our own tradition. But you can't just throw out everything and start creating your own tradition from scratch. There's a modification that takes place over a period of time.

[24:03]

So you absorb what's been handed to you, and then you create something out of that, which fits the situation, the time, the place, and the disposition of everybody. And we're in the process of creating our own traditions. it looks like we're very formal, you know. But actually, to us it looks very formal. To the Japanese, it looks very informal, you know. But there's this big tendency right now. In the past five years or so, Buddhist population in America has grown exponentially. And there are a lot of people who have just become Buddhists, you know, but they have no formal training and they're not interested in it. It's like a rushing river, you know, of people who are really interested in Buddhism and creating a kind of Buddhist something, you know, sangha or something.

[25:22]

this traditional Buddhist style is kind of being bypassed by most Buddhist practitioners, or that whole popular Buddhist culture, I would say. The popular Buddhist culture although disrespect, you know, and kind of looking at it, but that's not what they're interested in so much. They're interested in social change and, you know, and even a lot of the teachers who were taught sort of traditional Buddhism have been kind of abandoning it and going into the social change arena. So, I myself, I can understand that.

[26:31]

I think people who had Japanese teachers feel one way, and people who are the students of the people who had Japanese teachers don't have the same connection, you know? So, I feel like preserving something that I... It's like a chain, you know? Like, here's the ocean, and the link between, say, Japan and America is like this. And then there's another link from this one to this one, and that one to that one. But the link from Japan to this one has to be maintained by somebody. So I feel that that's what I'm doing. I'm kind of maintaining the link from our tradition.

[27:32]

And then people who come after that can do all kinds of different things, you know, and will do all kinds of different things. And I think that's fine. I would like to be doing all kinds of different things myself. And so, you know, you say, are you conservative? And I say, yes. But actually, That's true, but it's not all I am. I am conserving something, you know, but I'm also very open to being progressive. Because to come to this practice at all, I was progressive. And then you stand here, and then you become conservative. So, I just feel that For me, this is my role, is to be conservative, to be the anchor on this shore for that one.

[28:34]

And then people that come after that can do all kinds of things. They run off into the town. So that's fine. But somehow, somewhere to just preserve, not preserve, I don't think preserve, it's not like jams and jellies. But it's like keeping alive a traditional practice so that we always have that touchstone. If you don't have the touchstone, pretty soon people start getting confused. Where is the source of the practice? Where is it coming from? Do you feel it's important that some of your students continue in the same spirit? Yeah. But I think both things happen at the same time. They continue that spirit, and yet they're a little different, you know? Like, I can see that already. My students are very connected to the practice, you know, to the traditional practice, and yet they're stepping out in their own way, you know, modifying and... But, so it's a combination of both things, and I can just see it, you know, happening, transforming.

[29:44]

What are the things that But one of the things that worries me is that within the traffic are some very powerful activities. And that sometimes we get confused about which is which as we start to toss everything out. And as I mentioned to you this morning, I think there's great power in some of these various things that can be bothersome, like this figure sitting above us. We think of him as above us, or her as above us, until we've met. And then there's no more above us. And the struggle for the students as I understand it, is to meet, is to come to meet that teacher.

[30:55]

And it seems as though it's an unending struggle until it happens. And then there's no more concern about who's on top and who's beneath. And I worry a little in our American or Western and liberal tradition that we'll make pablums out of granola. Well, that we'll make something easy and pleasant and equal and it won't have any disturbing edges to it and then there won't be anything for us to see about ourselves. So, it feels very important as we question tradition to also wonder what parts of the tradition are actually extremely powerful activities that we're engaged in that are beyond our ideas of equality or concern with hierarchy or whatever.

[32:06]

Stuart? I agree very strongly with Barbara that If we as students already knew what it should be like, then we wouldn't necessarily have to be students. If it was already something that we already knew, then we wouldn't have to study that. And if there's something that we're interested in, I think that the notion of approaching the tradition of the transmission of something that we're interested in is respectfully approaching it is very important because we don't know really how much of the fundament of the teaching is transmitted in the trappings.

[33:12]

We may think that we can discern that, But that's before we have a complete understanding. And I remember being in the position of being the transmitter of another kind of teachings as an acupuncture teacher, a teacher of oriental medicine, which was something that I had studied for some time and knew little about. And I had students in a class. And I can remember that that was an issue about, you know, these are old-fashioned ideas and there's, you know, What we really need to do is to modernize this and we need to synthesize Oriental medicine and Western medicine and make them together and there'll be one thing. And I remember distinctly the clearest articulation of that was from somebody who was really struggling and having a lot of trouble with the concepts that I was trying to teach. And before I could control myself, I said, but first you should try to understand it.

[34:18]

before you synthesize it with something else that you already know about. After you understand it, then you can make a synthesis. But I think in some ways, as students, it's our job to try to be open to what it is that's coming to us, and try to learn that, and then having achieve some mastery, then we can decide what should be pared away, and what's unnecessary, and what's just cultural artifacts that we should get rid of. Also, there's one other interesting thing about tradition. A friend of mine who's also a teacher of Oriental medicine, but had studied Oriental religions at Columbia, and his main professor, he had a theory that no tradition that there was no tradition that was longer lived than living memory. That things were the way they were only for so long as there was somebody who could remember that that was the way things were.

[35:26]

And beyond that, probably they were rather different. And all the archaeological evidence there was, all the cultural evidence was, that they were different. We could talk about the tradition that went back 500 years, but it was actually only about maybe 75 years. And that if you could uncover some information about how it was 100 years before that, it was different. Mark? Well, I'm here to talk to the team, like both Stuart and Barbara said. But I feel like the tradition, even like what Stuart said, it changes. There's a thread there, or some essence It's like a map. And I've actually experienced that during different ceremonies where it's so new that I really don't know how to relate to my environment. And the ceremony or the form gives me a way to function. And then from learning how to function within that form, I can take that and the next step into everyday life is that form.

[36:28]

But I think to do it just straight out is something very important. It's like a map. It wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for college here. It wouldn't be here today. Having grown up in a really, my father is an international developer in the sense of education and going into other cultures and developing our sense of education in a culture while essentially ignoring their culture is And he's recently begun to write ethical statements about the development process and what America does to other nations. And it's quite interesting how deep-seated this is, this tendency within ourselves to be so arrogant, to assume that we know how things should be done, and to totally ignore other people, and disrespect their ways, and just try to go in and change things.

[37:33]

And he's lived his whole life basically doing that and coming to a sense of... Suddenly waking up. I wish everyone else would wake up. It's almost too late. We've ruined almost every culture. We've ruined almost every tradition. And those cultures survived by tradition. In Africa, and South America and Central America, you know, those cultures really survived by tradition. And their tradition created a holistic way of life. And as soon as it was broken, everything fell apart. I just feel that recognizing that, we should question our own desire to change things. and see where that's really coming from.

[38:39]

Also, it's coming from me when I feel like, oh, I don't like this form. That's basically what it is. It's an inversion. And it's not something that's really, I want to change it for the benefit of others because it'll bring about more sense of communal oneness. It's more because I don't like it. Yeah, I don't. But also, there's something on the other side, too. which is that something come to us from a foreign place, from another culture, and for us to assimilate it, you know, is a big step. And we have our own culture, and in some sense, are we betraying our own culture? You know, that's also a factor. And so we have to weigh that and balance, you know, And I think there's a way that we can do that.

[39:43]

And sometimes I see people going over to one side, you know, and being, you know, good little Japanese, you know. And sometimes they go over to the other side and they're, you know, just don't want to have anything to do with it, you know, because, you know, why isn't it American, you know? So, how to stay in the middle and accept this and still not lose yourself, you know, not lose your integrity and be absorbed into that too much. But on the other hand, the only way to really do it is to do it completely until it doesn't feel formal anymore. It's no longer formal, it's just, you know, and we are Americans, you know, or Europeans or South Americans you know, whatever we are. But we can, you know, accept the form, accept the tradition, without betraying ourself. I think that's important.

[40:45]

Well, isn't it also sort of true that in Japan these forms are not ordinary forms that people... No, they're not. That's right. In a sense, I mean, any sort of thing that you're going to do that's going to change you, will require you to do something difficult that eventually it sort of becomes, as you said, comfortable. And I think that it's, I mean, I sort of have to use this word, but it sort of has something to do with humility. Like, you know, I think it's related to what David was saying. You know, can you do something without being in front of yourself? Or, you know, that sort of feeling, like, can it become comfortable? You know, is that possible? And I think on some level it requires something like humility and I don't, as I said, I'm hesitating to use that word because it sounds like it's not me facing, but in a sense it is that too. It's just that... See, I think a lot of it also is the way things are presented. Because... Well, you know, Suzuki Roshi was a sweet little old man and when he presented

[41:54]

He did not present a very formal practice to us, I must say. He didn't want to impose Japanese culture on us at all. And he didn't expect us to like that or even have anything to do with it. And the practice that he presented was very simple. The only thing that we ever chanted was the Heart Sutra. During service was the Heart Sutra three times. In Japanese. But, you know, it wasn't translated. And, of course, we had the forms, you know, bowing and all that, but it was very simple. It was just a kind of simple Zendo etiquette, you know. And later, when Tatsugami Roshi came in 1970, he set up the monastic practice. You know, showed us how to train the doans and showed us how to do all this stuff, you know, which is fine.

[42:57]

And even that was very simple. And people used to argue with him about it, you know, I remember. I was his shuso, first shuso with him. And he was great, you know, we used to sit and smoke cigarettes all day. But he taught us how to chant, and he taught us, you know, how to do the service, everything. But Suzuki Roshi never, you know, It was very simple with him. And he wanted us to have somebody to set up the monastic practice, but still, you know, he never imposed anything on us. And he used to criticize the Japanese all the time, you know. And he knew that they didn't understand us, and he understood us better than we understood ourselves in many ways. So everybody could go along with it pretty easily, you know, because it was just the form of the practice, And he wasn't imposing anything on us, and so we all trusted it. So I think the way it's introduced makes a lot of difference.

[43:59]

And when I see, you know, some other sanghas, you know, where people are very uptight and so forth. In Mississippi where I actually was here, people were not uptight. Later, when we had different habits, people started getting snotty and uptight, you know. Excuse me, I think there's a gossipy element in this question. I may have misunderstood you, but when you were talking about the Tokugetsu issue, I understood you to say that you and Tenshin were people who were going to be receiving this lineage.

[45:01]

And I didn't hear you mention Zouketsu. I wonder what his role is. Richard Baker? No, I mean Norman. Oh, Norman. Well, Norman... Norman, so you've been going through this process, like Rem and I, you know, Tetsugan and Genpo and some of these others. Tetsugan is my Zumi Roshi student. My Zumi Roshi student. So, we've been going through this process for several years. Norman hasn't. So, I gave Norman Darwin transmission five years ago or I can't remember how long ago it was. Huh? 88? 88. But the rest of us have gone to Japan and had Zuisei and been recognized that far. And Norman hasn't done that.

[46:04]

So he's not officially one of these people. So when we become authorized, which is probably going to happen, at the end of this thing, then we can take care of Norman. And we can register our question into wonder. And I was feeling like, as we started supporting tradition, we were getting into that area where it begins to sound like If you're questioning, you obviously... You can't question because you don't know enough to question. And so then you have to... There's an inability to... kind of be honest to yourself about who you are and what is right for you.

[47:08]

And I think that every student has the capacity to question, and to question intelligently, at the same time that I agree with what I said before, which was that sometimes we don't know, and that's how we learn. So, it's a tension between those that is what we're playing with. That's right. So, I have to say that my practice I enjoy formality, but I'm not a real formalist. I'll tell people how they should come in and bow for dog-san. But if they don't do it, I don't say anything. Because I feel that the way a person comes and presents themselves is the way they are. And I can say, this is the way you're supposed to do it, but if you want to present yourself the way you are, it's okay with me.

[48:12]

That's where we meet. So, I don't demand that you do things a certain way. I tell you how to do them, and if you don't do them that way, well, that's the way it is. It's up to you. I think it's good to use the form, but not to be used by it. And I don't like to see it when people get anal. Retention. Retention. You know, you can get to the point where you walk into the Zen Dojo and if people aren't doing everything just right, you know, you just feel excruciating pain.

[49:24]

I used to do that, you know, because I wanted everything to be just right, you know, like I wanted the emulator to be just right and I wanted the Doan to hit the bell just right and I wanted the a kuyo just right, you know, and when it wasn't just right, you know, I used to look at the fugu, I'm famous for looking at the fugu. But, you know, I've learned how to absorb all that. I just don't... I try not to see anything wrong. I see that something's happening that's not the way it's supposed to happen, but I don't say that that's wrong. It's just happening a different way. But, sometime I would love to be the Eno. Tomorrow? Tomorrow.

[50:27]

Well, I've often thought of coming down for, you know, two weeks. during practice period, and just working with the Doans, you know, I'd like to do that. I might do that sometime. I mean, I find it very... You have to turn around. ...interesting with over the last few years that, you know, it seems like these forms are kind of set, having been Tisha for a long time and now Enoch, I find each time a ceremony comes up, it actually gets created again. I mean, we have these rehearsals and then all these big guys stand around and say, how did we do this last time? Oh, we did this. No, we did this. Well, we did this. So then they go and there are innumerable papers about describing the ceremonies over several years.

[51:30]

very different, I mean sometimes totally the opposite than last time and so it is such a living thing that I think having seen that somehow make the value of the tradition more apparent and at the same time made it more flexible and a sense of it that it was each time created by those particular people that were doing it, and it was each time a different thing. And also, actually, each time the ceremony could feel different. I mean, every sashim feels different, even though we have the same forms, almost. So I thought that was really interesting to see. Yeah. So, thank you. The third thing, let's see how much time we have. Yeah, well, the third thing, unless you want to continue this, But third thing is summertime.

[52:32]

Summertime. I'm not for you. I'm not for you. I don't know what to say about it. I just, what came to mind was what you said that monks are trained to bear the unbearable. I'd like to mention something that a very new student said last summer at our end of the summer meeting when people were talking about the awful rich guests and how they live their lives And this wonderful brand new student who'd been there all three weeks said, oh, I thought it was our practice to take care of the guests.

[53:34]

And I didn't think it was our practice to criticize them for how they are. But they are on their path, and we are on ours. And for me, he summed up some of it. Yeah. And he's coming back. And you're not going to say who he is. Well, I think that's a big, you know, it's a good subject, you know, how we, guests and students, you know, relate. I found going to the, because I was on the camera crew, a few years ago, I thought it was pretty closely accurate that a lot of books, I've seen a lot of books, a lot of psychology or Buddhism or whatever, a lot of people... There are a lot of people who are, well, I'm sorry, a lot of well-educated people and a lot of professional people and a lot of people who are interested in our practice, either, you know, somewhat peripherally or more than that,

[54:50]

And I think, you know, this is the opportunity. It's like you're inviting people into your house, is what we're doing. And it's, you know, it's the public. They're just coming into your house, you know, and kind of taking over in a way. And we're making their beds, and baking their bread, and making their meals. and generally taking care of them and showing them what our practice is. I think the important thing is that we're really, by doing all this, we're showing them who we are. And we can tell them about Buddhism, that's one thing, but the main thing is how they see the way we are. Just like kids, you know? You can teach them this and you can teach them that, but what they learn is the way you are.

[55:54]

Yeah, Gloria? I found that so many people come here and they really rely on coming here to diffuse from a very busy life. And it doesn't really matter why they do it. It's like they're so thankful. Usually people are thankful. And even if things don't go quite right, they're expecting it to be good. And they just have a very positive feeling about it. And they thank us for actually being here. It's the same feeling I had with taking produce to the farmer's market. It's just that people are reminded of, they'll say, oh, yeah, I went to Green Gulch, you know, 10 years ago. I always meant to go back, or it reminds them of something of their practice. And I think that's what we are doing. It gives people a chance to remind whatever their practice is. It reminds them of finding some place within themselves. I just find it really interesting how they thank us when they come.

[57:05]

Even though I worked in Kevin Crew, and also they pay $180 sometimes per room. and they thank us. And it's very rare that I felt, well, thank you for actually giving me the food that I eat every day and that I've lived on for two years now. I feel a lot of shame for that. But, and then when guests, guest practitioners, when they leave the work circle sometimes after having been, saved up money for and me crying or just deeply appreciative. Yeah, we do. All right. Mark. I can say a lot about the deaf students. I think one of the most important, one of the deepest experiences I've had is being able to introduce people to the practice and seeing their gratitude.

[58:09]

Because they don't know anything about British practice. They have to live their life in a very busy way. And to show them how to do things, like this thing, how to work mindfully, the overwhelming gratitude that comes back is absolutely something. Carol? I don't want to peer-peep you, but I came here as a guest for the first time. I'm not knowing anything about Buddhist practice. I'm not particularly interested in Buddhist practice. I came here because I didn't like it. One, but I knew when I came right away I wanted to be here, but one of the things that I did consciously while I was here for that workshop was I watched the people in the dining room because I could see how they were relating to each other. I noticed how there seemed to be kind of a caring quality of them talking to each other, the way they were taking care of each other. you know, something is looking at that.

[59:14]

So, it does matter. You know, the thing that you really struck me last night when you said about the really important thing that we don't rely on sponsorship, people don't give us money, but we're actually independent and we have this great opportunity to support ourselves in our practice by means of, you know, engaging in, you know, like you're playing politics. It's exciting to see that we have this opportunity to be able to come here and do exchange work for, you know, it's just, you can't beat that, you know. It's just incredible, so to be really grateful for that opportunity to, you know, play. Yeah, well I remember when we first started Tatsahara, you know, and we had to decide, you know, First of all, first we thought, well, maybe, you know, this is just going to be our place. And we didn't have the idea about continuing the guest season necessarily, or continuing the guests.

[60:21]

And then people who have been coming here for years and years, you know, there are people who used to come in the summer who actually come here on the stagecoach. I think they may even still come. Not many, but... And I said, you know, you mean you're going to, you know, not let us use this place anymore? We've been coming here all our lives, you know, and so we realized, you know, that this place... Has a tradition. Has a tradition. That's right. And it's important to accommodate the community. And so we created the guest season from that, little by little. And we went through many stages in doing that.

[61:25]

I remember when we used to get up and eat all our meals in the zendo. take care of the guests, eat all the meals in the Zen Dojo and sit three periods of Zazen. But of course, that didn't last very long. Then we started eating lunch outside, you know, and creating, and it's finally gotten to its final form. I mean, its present form. And I hope it doesn't stay in its present form, actually. It would be nice, you know, if everybody didn't have to work so hard. You know, I really agree with all that, you know. I would like to see us not have to work so hard, and to be able to sit more. But it's always a fight, you know. It's easy to say that, but when you see what has to be done, and how many people there has to be to keep this thing going. You know, if you go to a resort someplace, there aren't nearly this many people taking care of it.

[62:27]

A place this size, you know. We have about one person for each guest or something like that. Yeah, it's amazing, you know. So it's a balance always, you know, to be able to actually do the practice, the practice of zazen, and the practice of working, and balance them, you know. So, I mean, I remember when people didn't have to go to Zazen, you know, I got to that point, you know. But I would like to see us sitting Zazen in the morning and at night. I know that there's always exceptions, you know, but as a basic practice, you know, you start your day with Zazen and you end your day with Zazen, and all the rest comes in between, you know, but you have... it's a Zazen sandwich. And even if there's ballooning... Well, I have found, I've also been here several summers.

[63:45]

And one thing that I have found out, when I first came to Tassajara, I was actually, I couldn't decide, like I've been to college, you know, and all this kind of thing. But what I realized before, a few years ago, that I'd really like to go to cooking school. And I ended up here at Tassajara, and then I worked in the kitchen, and then I was a guest cook. And it's amazing, you know, and now I know so much. You went to cooking school. I went to cooking school, exactly. And I think there's a certain way in which we need this many people because none of us know what we're doing, you know. I mean, everybody comes here, you know, and these people come into the kitchen, and they've never used a knife. They've never sharpened a knife. They've never even used a cutting board. There was a guy who was this really quite a brilliant carpenter. And he didn't say anything. He owned his own business, you know, and everything. But he had never done that kind of work. And it was driving him crazy. Because he had never had to stand there and just, you know, chop some onions. And he was working really hard with it. And I think, you know, by the end of the summer, he was a very interesting person.

[64:47]

You know? But he got through that. And it was... But I think... And I'm not trying to say, oh, the summer's wonderful, but something does happen. But I do think we need that many people because we don't know what we're doing. I've trained many, many people just to hold a knife and try not to cut themselves, you know. And so it takes hours and hours, you know, to do this tiny task. And so, that's the reason. And I mean that, you know, with all my heart. I love doing it, but... Oh, the help you get these days. And we have to have like five people on the lettuce table, because they're all out there, talking. Well, you know, one thing that I think that we can do, I mean, I would like to see us do, is to instill a sense of practice in people. Even if they're only coming, you know, for a week or two or whatever, you know, you say, our practice is to do it this way, not to talk when you're doing the letter, you know.

[65:49]

But somehow, you know, we feel that we give a lot of concession to people. No, what happens is they're all talking and then the Buddha can come and go. They know. That's good. That's a very clever thing that happened at Green Gulch where at Christmas time a lot of guests wanted to come and then a lot of people living there wanted to go on vacation. So it got kind of crazy. So they instituted this very special program where you pay the weekend rate but you make your own bed and you Your meals were included, and you had to stay at least two days. You don't pay the weekend rate. You pay the lower rate. Well, we had charged the weekend rate. That's changed. But anyways, even with the lower rate, and it's full occupancy, and it takes less people, it just kind of, the need was great. And people, a lot of times, are surprised that their beds are made anyway.

[66:56]

Yes. So... Yeah, I know. We just called it a special program so that they would know. Right. It'd be interesting if we didn't make people's beds. But we wouldn't have to. We'd have to charge them with it. Right. Yes. So, you know... It looks like Zen Center makes a lot of money. But the expenses are enormous. And when you figure how people in the summer want a certain pay scale, you cannot imagine the headache trying to figure out that pay scale. You just can't. I mean, it seems very simple. I don't want to explain it to you, because it's more than I can explain.

[67:56]

I mean, I don't even understand it. Some people, we have some geniuses who do understand it. Or maybe it doesn't make any sense. Oh, sure. One of the things I thought of this morning was we could slow down, you know, and stop doing as much stuff, you know, if we wanted to. All we'd have to do is Not get paid. Would you provide toothpaste? The toothpaste. Jack? I was thinking of this when we were doing the last discussion, but it just stays in my head. It seems like with the information explosion that we're undergoing, the written information is doubling every five years. Yes. The glut. Right. But Zazen seems to be the antithesis.

[68:59]

It's a way that we can slow down. So this is what we're doing. That's right. We have to do, like you said, a big program. We have no choice. That's right. This is the balance. Yeah. This little spot is balancing that whole big thing. The disinformation. The brainwashing machine calls that name. Yes? You know, my question last night was difficult to ask. I knew we discussed a little bit more this morning, but actually the central point of my question last time was, even though we're working as hard, it seems that we're working as hard as other people have to do in the outside world, we should be offering something different to the world, some different model of life based on Buddhist practice. One way to do that would be to reduce the stress level and try to work less. But that doesn't seem possible. So I think what we should do, or what they could do, is definitely stress, not stress, but try to gain more practice through performance training.

[70:09]

That's some definite way that we can show people, or some intention, some definite way. So I think what I would say is that, and what I would say about our practice, working practice, is how you have ease in the work. How you can do the work without tiring yourself out. How you can do the work without getting all anxious, and you know, these qualities, that's the main, because to not work as much, well, I mean, you know, you're not proving anything to them that way, but, but to, how to work, how to do something with, you know, Zen mind, right?

[71:20]

how to have beginner's mind in your work and how to move in a relaxed way when you're doing something so that you're not getting yourself bunched up in a tight, nervous way and to keep relaxed and easy and rhythmic. To me, that's That's something that if we could actually work in that way, people would notice that. I think that takes at least a couple of years or longer. At least in my experience. It doesn't happen just because I've been somewhere. For me, it's taken five years. That's my experience. area, that during the summer session there was a change of atmosphere.

[72:30]

And that atmosphere was something, that atmosphere is something that I can easily commit myself to a long-term statement. But a week or two later, it went back to an environment of work that I personally feel very uncomfortable in. Very similar to a worldly attitude of appearance of being busy and rushed, rushed. I guess the thing that was magical to me was during that Samatha Sushma people had the spirit of taking care of the place. And if there was a way that every day we could have that mindfulness to bring the Samatha Sushma spirit of taking care of the place, that work would be transformed. I know, I agree. I think that's what we should, that's what I would like to see us have, is that same Samu Sachine mind, just in our daily practice. One thing I think that would help that is, you know, to sit, have more sitting, which is hard to fit in, but not impossible.

[73:44]

You know, it's like everybody doesn't have to sit at the same time. We can have, you know, groups of people doing like a morning sitting, you know, or a one-day sitting, and then, you know, another group doing that, so that, you know, you're not shutting down, but somehow to work it so that that's going on all the time with the work, so that it's flowing in and out. They actually did that last summer. They had like a five o'clock period, and then in the evening they sat at five, and then there was a period, I think, before the evening period, so if somebody was off that day or wasn't off that day. So there were... Yes. Yeah. I also, my personal preference would also be to, we only have these half-day sessions once a month, and I would like to see it, but... I think we're done. Oh. What would you like and what are you going to? I have been more frequently, or at least, and it's always an option to do in the summer. My understanding is that we're always free to go into the Zendo and sit.

[74:48]

But for a lot of the new students, including myself in the first summer here, I needed the encouragement of the form established, other people going to do it. And I just feel that in my second summer, I could do that on my own to a small extent. really help out. It's not enough to just say, well, you're free to go into Zendo, you know, on your... It's like asking for volunteers. But to have a way that, you know, you kind of expect that to happen, you know, and encouragement and a forum for it makes a lot of difference. And... Did you want to say something, Barbara? The fact that the sentence has to work quickly because you don't have to rush.

[75:49]

Yes. There's a wonderful Aikido exercise called Eight Directions, and I think we should all do it every morning. It starts out very slowly and speeds up, but it stays just as exact from the beginning to the end. And perhaps if we learn to practice an exercise that does that and shows us how We might be able to take that then into our work and avoid, you know, our heads being six inches in front of the rest of us as we try to move our way through our day. Because we do have to work quickly. We do have to work quickly. But, you know, how to be in time. You know, that's really it. How to really be in time, not ahead, not behind. If you keep thinking about that, and keep being reminded of it, you know, and have it be something that, you know, the teachers keep talking about.

[76:54]

It's a little bit like brushing something extra. Yeah. Yeah, I know, it's getting late. I just wanted to say just again, since I've been here so many summers, One thing I have started to feel is that if you have a wide view of a day or the summer, you know, it's easier not to rush. Because you start to get a sense that there's a rhythm that works rather than a panic that works. But it's hard, you know, your first couple of summers, because it does look like everybody's rushing around. But then it starts to make sense that there's actually a rhythm that's going on, you know, sort of underneath. I enjoy moving quickly and, you know, doing one thing, you know, flowing into the next and, you know, it makes work very enjoyable. Well, I haven't made the plans yet.

[77:55]

One of the things is my wife, didn't know when her vacation was going to be. So it's been hard to make the plans, but I'm going to know on Saturday. And then I'll be able to make plans for when I'm going to be here. You know, and also, and then I'm going to make a big effort to come down for like two or three days at a time, you know, just drop in when I have that time. What would you like to say to your viewers? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well since this is my, this is going to be my focus rather than Page Street. So, you know, that's my intention. So, maybe that's it.

[78:56]

I just want, I want to say a word about having lived on the farm where we only sat one period of time a week. But we worked 18 hours a day for years and years. And then when I was able to come out here and start sitting every day, and only working 8 hours a week, it was so amazing. I felt like I was, you know, 40 hours a week. I was like, wow! I used to do all this stuff, you know, taking 20 classes a week. We had such a great street core. because we're one heart, one mind, and we really had that, you know, we're all younger, that was also true. But still, when you're all, this is what Zen Center also is, in that way, it holds another structure.

[79:46]

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