Well, tonight we're going to go over the version of this koan as it appears in the book of records with Master Secho's commentary. and Master Engo's introduction and commentary and verse and so forth. So, I'm not sure, there are a number, a lot more translations than of the Book of Serenity. So, but the one that I am going to use is probably not as good as you have. I'm going to use the one in Tujan Classics. which is by Hakeda, Mr. Hakeda.

[01:08]

But that's okay, because the wording is very different, somewhat different, and somewhat the same in all the versions. But I like Hakeda's commentary. more annotated. He's trying to help you to understand it instead of trying to make you understand it. If you understand it, what does it mean? The references, you know, unless you're an ancient Chinaman, you won't get it, you know? So it's very nice to have annotations. It helps us to understand where we're at in the koan, and what parts of the koan relate to each other. I think in the Book of Records, by Cleary, that translation was a commentary by Engel.

[02:16]

You have to spend a lot of time with it, and we don't have that kind of time. But anyway, I like this translation and commentary. So you have your copy, so just choose whatever copy you want. to follow, or not, just in the sense you want. So it's just a little different, although it's the same. Ngo, who is the... He's not using any of those. I'm not using any of those. Okay. Got it. So, Engel's introduction, we all have that.

[03:24]

That's common. But the wording here is different. Although, the wording is, he uses these Chinese-Japanese terms, which are, the other translators don't do that. Although, what's his name? Yamada Kōn explains this, but he doesn't use it in the translation. Okay? So here, in his translation, he says, one movement of the mind, one movement of the body, every word and every phrase. Right? That's the way it's usually translated. But actually, to get a little better understanding, he says, each ki and every kyō. every word and every phrase, which basically has the same meaning except that ki and kyo have very special meanings, which express what the meaning is of the other translation.

[04:39]

So I'm going to read the introduction, the whole introduction, and we will have plenty of time to talk about what this means for us, if it means anything to you, how you understand it for yourself. So each ki and every kyo, every word and gesture and phrase, for the moment, are leading students to realization. I'll read that again. Each ki and every kyo, every word and phrase and gesture, is a means for the moment. Temporarily. Is it what? Means. Means? Means. Means. Thank you. You want to turn it up? No. Okay. Since we can't, we don't have any text, we have to go by hearing you. It's a little bassy. Is there any way to adjust the bass? Oh, bassy.

[05:42]

It's very hard to understand what you're saying. We need more treble. Yeah, the base is too high. They don't really have a base in trouble, honestly. Just keep on going. The base is in trouble. Maybe if you come closer. You could come closer, actually. Yes, there's plenty of room. Space. Come closer. Anybody feels that they want to get that close? Good for you. I have to go behind you. I'm tall. Just go ahead. Okay, I'll speak up. Each key, that's a word, and kill, that's another word. Every word and gesture and phrase

[06:45]

is a means, a means, you're welcome, for the moment, momentarily, of leading students to realization. But every such manipulation is like performing an operation on a healthy body and will give rise to complication upon complication. The great way manifests itself naturally. It is limited by no fixed rules. But I must tell you that there is an advanced theme that you will have to learn. It presides over heaven and earth. However, if you try to guess at it, you'll be confused. This can be right, and that can also be right. It is so delicate that this cannot be right, and that also cannot be right, an unapproachable cliff face.

[08:05]

How could you manage without stumbling here or there? Study the following. I'm going to go back to the beginning, because this introduction has a lot to do with the case, as you might suspect. The first sentence, each ki and every kyo, every word and gesture, phrase, is the means, for the moment, of leading students to realization. The ancient masters, in China, where this all takes place, had various means to wake up their students. There's the shout, the stick, the fist, the slipper. So he's saying,

[09:09]

These are expedients, but they're really not for advanced students. They're for newer students who are not yet advanced. But he says, but every such manipulation is like performing an operation on a healthy body. Right. It may be more detrimental than helpful. So I'm going to talk about key and kill. Key is like, has several meanings. One meaning is breath, or the most essential thing.

[10:21]

Energy, vital energy, which is characterized by breath. Dōgen uses the term Zenki. He wrote a physical called Zenki. which is sometimes translated as undivided activity or total dynamic activity. Qi and qiao are somewhat similar. Their expressions on this side They're expressions of the positive side of our life, which is what we experience all the time. They're expressions of the absolute, but the way the absolute expresses itself is as sin, ki, and kill.

[11:38]

Zen's key is the taught energy. He uses the example of archery, when you pull back the bow and its dynamic tension is there, right? And then you let go. And that's Kyo. Ki and Kyo. Ki is the held-in energy, so to speak, or the basic energy. And Kyo is when you listen to music. Is there another way to think about it? Why do you need another way to think about it? Well, another example would be lifting your eyebrows or lifting your finger.

[12:54]

The key is the universal energy that allows the finger to move. And moving the finger is kill. lifting your spoon. This is key and kill. So it's not like, it doesn't have to be the dynamic that we usually think of because the most delicate movement is also key and kill. So fundamental, basic fundamental energy. There are three terms, Japanese terms, Buddhist terms. One is kikon, kikon, nikon, which we usually say nikon, like your camera, and shikon.

[14:00]

Nikan, Kikan means eternal present, eternal now. So eternal now is kind of related to Zenki. But eternal now is always now. Nikan is the harmony To harmonize momentary and eternal without attachment to either one. This is very key to our koan. The harmonization of the momentary and the eternal without being attached.

[15:03]

to either side. And shikan is just this. So these three terms are really characteristic of this koan. And shikan, just this, is what we call shikantaza. This is a word in Zen practice you know, the shikantaza and koan practice. People say, well, the Soto school emphasizes shikantaza, and the Rinzai school emphasizes koan study. But koan study, when koan study is shikantaza, and shikantaza is koan study, but people usually fall into one side or the other. because they are very loyal to their dualistic parties. Their dualistic what?

[16:07]

Parties. Parties. Thank you. So he says, each key and every keyhole. Every word and every gesture or phrase is a means for the moment of leading students to realization. In other words, the Zen master uses any means possible. Ordinary stuff, like twisting somebody's nose when the ducks are flying overhead and the teacher says, what is that? And the student said, well, it's a flying duck. And the teacher says, where is it going? And the student says, it's flying by. And the teacher takes the student's nose and gives it a twist.

[17:11]

So that's kikyo, means of waking up a student. So, but every such manipulation is like performing an operation on a healthy body. In other words, you don't have to do that, right? Sometimes you try to wake up the student, but you're actually damaging the student. Could be, right? And will give rise to complication upon complication. What was that? No. I'm hearing things. But the great way, the great way manifests itself naturally. The great way is the Tao, right? The Tao is the way, but it's not a path like a road. It's the means.

[18:15]

It's like the means. Zenki? is not exactly the way. Zenki is the... It's not not the way, but I wouldn't point it out as that. It's actually the way of dying and coming back to life. That's the great way. But I must tell you, the great way manifests itself naturally. It is limited by no fixed rules. But I must tell you that there is an advanced theme that you will have to learn. So, what went before is for beginners. This is the advanced theme. This is the real thing.

[19:15]

It presides over heaven and earth. It covers heaven and earth. However, if you try to guess at it, you'll be confused. It's like, if you try to understand the absolute, I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, if you try to catch the tail of a comet, people will pity you. So, however, If you try to guess at it, you will be confused. This can be right, and that can also be right. In other words, this is sometimes called granting. Granting means, yes, whatever you do is right, whatever you do is good. Just keep going in that way. This can be right, and also that can be right.

[20:19]

It is so delicate. that this cannot be right, and that also cannot be right. So that's taking everything away. Granting and grasping, taking everything away. There are other ways to understand this, but I like understanding it in that way. And I'll talk about that a little bit. How could you manage without stumbling here and there? So study the following. So I have a footnote that I wrote, and I will read it. If you plan to make known that there is an absolute throughout heaven and earth, the search for it will not succeed. Attaining, not attaining.

[21:24]

A small matter. Not attaining, attaining. A really great matter. So, that's kind of like... Attaining and not attaining. So, attaining and not attaining. A small matter. That's like, in a universal way, does it matter what you did on Earth? In the short time you were here? On the other hand, it really does matter. In one sense, it doesn't matter at all. In another sense, it really does matter. So, that's what he's talking about. I want to talk about this a little bit more. Excuse me, in what sense does it matter?

[22:25]

Well, if it doesn't matter, that's too diffused. It's like, oh well, it doesn't matter, that's too happy-go-lucky. If it does matter, that's maybe too tight. to restrict it. So where will you land? Which path will you take? Will you take the path that, oh, it doesn't matter, or will you take the path that it really does matter? Is it possible to let go of the distinction? Yes. Yes. So you know Nagarjuna's Four Propositions? No. The four propositions are, everything falls under these four propositions. Is and is not.

[23:30]

Everything is and is not. Either everything is or it's not. Everything neither is nor is not. Everything is and is not. So these are the four propositions. So where will you land? in the middle, is, is not, neither is nor is not, both is and is not, is a kind of figure, right? Four corners. So just this is shikantaza. That's our practice, is to not get caught by anything, any one of the propositions, because they're all binding binding thank you what is the difference between just this and eternal now yes

[24:34]

I just wanted to comment that it also sounds like a children's game. You pick the rules, and you take them seriously. If you take them too seriously, you really can't play the game. But if you leave the rules behind, there's no sense in playing the game at all. Children's all games, actually, if you're me, anyway. But yes, you've got to be into the game in order for it to bring it to life. So that's also a very important point, because somebody sent me a, I got a notice to some magazine or something once to write, somebody like me, to write a story about, a little thing about the meaning of life. So, it's interesting to think about that. Very interesting to think, what is the meaning of life? You know, Mr. Natural said. Remember Mr. Natural? So shikantaza is our practice, which means justice.

[25:51]

It includes momentary and eternal If you only have eternal life, nothing happens. If you only have momentary life, it doesn't mean anything. But you can't have one without the other. Anyway. So we bring life to life. That's our practice. That's the meaning of life, is to bring life to practice. To bring life to life, it's not... It is set out there for you. All you have to do is live it. It means... Whatever you're doing is what it means. May you also say life subjects you to these four different pullings or four different tensions?

[26:55]

Or more, yes. Just as you're being alive. Yes. Life is pulling you in. Of course, both is and isn't is not a realistic... Except that, in the sense itself, because is and isn't are happening at the same time. It's a practice. You can't have one without the other. Isn't it just a practice to think that we're not actually holding it as the answer, right? I mean, if you hold the mind saying yes it is and yes no it isn't, that's the practice and we kind of ride that wave without actually saying that it is or isn't. Yes, don't say it is or isn't. Yes, we ride that wave without saying it yet. Because as soon as something is or isn't, at the same time, because cause and effect happen at the same time. Cause and effect happen at the same time. So as soon as something happens, it isn't. And it both is and isn't, and neither is or isn't.

[28:03]

But in a sense, that's kind of sophisticated, sophist breed, but it is at the same time. So it's just that it's hard to experience anything that quick, that happens that quickly. And Buddhists, the Abhidharmas say that, I don't know how many, but there are just so many minute points of time in a moment. like 651,000 points of time. It's infinite, right? It's just that we can't count them. I mean, we can up to a point, but then it becomes theoretical. Theoretical, anyway. Like nanoseconds.

[29:07]

Yeah. A nanosecond is a long period of time. And if you think about it, we only experience what we don't think about how long something really takes in real time. how many instants of time there are in a nanosecond. And we also don't see how many universes are in a speck of dust. And we can see how limited we are, because we're conditioned to only be able to move around in this particular planetary condition, the conditions of this planet.

[30:11]

So that's all that we're conditioned to, all we need to understand. But we try to understand more and more all the time. That's human nature. So I have a question. Yes. So, if I'm understanding, if our Zen practice is finding harmony between the momentary and the eternal, and you're looking for that kind of a balance, then can we think of the ethics of our everyday life as a kind of being out of balance? So, in early Buddhist times, in our time we think of good and bad as two opposites, as a duality. Was it the case that in early Buddhist times there was a medium, and so not too much this way or not too much that way?

[31:21]

The middle way. So not really good and bad, but finding the balance. between the extremes? We tend to think so. I don't know what they really talked about. Non-duality seems to be throughout Buddhism, but really emphasized in the Mahayana. More. More emphasized in the Mahayana, I think. The Middle Way, there are various ways to think about Middle Way. Middle Way is like not too much of this or too much of that, right? Which is nice. But in my honor, it means middle way between birth and death. So that's why this notion in my honor about no birth and no death, that's middle way. Because nothing really is born or dies.

[32:25]

There's simply a continuation of various forms. with transformation of various forms, of the forms that we have. So both of those are middle way, but one is more like middle way, not too much excess or too little. That's one way of understanding it. The other is really middle way between not quite life and not quite death. But yes, and that's very much like the Nagarjuna Four Propositions. So, you know, the truth is like in between the cracks. As soon as you posit something positive, the other side is also there. So that's the duality.

[33:28]

And not to fall into the duality is fudgy logic, so to speak. It's to be able to see everything in its wholeness. Well, yes, there's the wholeness of things and then the individuality of things. So between the wholeness and the individuality is where our life actually takes place. Because the individuality is always changing. So eternal time is just now, but it's no particular time. We particularize time by saying 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. We particularize time. That's called discontinuous. Because the time discontinues from 1 to 2 to 3.

[34:33]

But if you take the hands away from the clock, it's just now. Always now. Always the same time. So it's always the same and always different. So that's, everything exists at the same time. Past, present, and future all exist in some way at the same time. So, I'm gonna go on to Secho's verse. Sun Face Buddha, I'm sorry, main subject. The great master Baso was seriously ill. The chief priest of the temple came to pay his respects. He asked, how do you feel these days? The Master said, Sun-Face Buddha, Moon-Face Buddha. Okay. Sun-Face Buddha, Moon-Face Buddha. Compared with them, how pale the three sacred sovereigns, the five ancestral emperors.

[35:38]

For 20 years, I have had fierce struggles descending into the dragon's cave for you. The hardship defies description. You clear-eyed monks don't make light of it. So here we have some funny things. Sun-faced Buddha, Moon-faced Buddha, this is a commentary, compared with them how pale the three sacred sovereigns and the five ancestral emperors. So everybody thinks somewhat, has their own opinion about what that all means. It's not clear exactly what all that means, but it may not be so hard to understand. One way of understanding it is, in mythological times, there were three sages who established the ancient states around the Yellow River and taught the people how to live.

[36:45]

They are regarded by the Chinese people as their ancestral divinities. The five ancestral emperors, following the three sacred sovereigns, came the five emperors, who also developed prehistoric states in which people lived blissfully through long ages. They are regarded as ideal figures and have been worshipped through the history by the Chinese people. Okay, so, you know, these are like the way that the Chinese people long for Buddhism. They were regarded as like historical, mythological, historical, developers and meters, or set the tone, actually, for Chinese people.

[37:52]

Did they call those the eight immortals? Is that the same? I don't know. Maybe there's five, six, it could be. It could be. They have all those statues, they're always everywhere. Yeah, it very well could be that. Yes, yes, good point. So, So in a way, it's kind of comparing the Buddhas or Mazu to the mortals. So, but it's unclear exactly. That's a simple solution. It's a simple solution. So Sun-Face Buddha, Moon-Face Buddha, compared with them, how pale the three sovereigns and five ancestral emperors.

[38:57]

So he's saying Moon-Face, Sun-Face, they pale in comparison with Moon-Face, Sun-Face. It's a kind of comparison, which may not be in good taste, But there it is. But it also refers back to a poem, a Zen poem. Yes, what's that? The Three Sovereigns and the Five Emperors, what are they? That's a line in a previous Zen poem. He takes that line and uses that line. So I think the context of that that poem or that line is some importance. Maybe. Maybe. Shaw has an explanation as well. Oh yeah.

[40:09]

The three emperors are the emperors of heaven, of earth, and the nine brothers. That's three, right? Well, yes. The emperors of heaven were twelve brothers who all lived for 18,000 years. So also were the emperors of earth. The nine brothers divided the nine provinces between them and all of them lived for 100 ages. The five sovereigns are inserted to complete the poetic form of the verse. They're only in there in order to somehow make the verse work. They're not really important as meaningful. So those are three different... Yeah, but what Yamada was saying is that actually that's an exact line from a previous verse And the poem itself is about a prince who doesn't get it.

[41:12]

A prince who, in relation to the emperors, is kind of just talking talk. He's Donald Trump. Right. He's Donald Trump. Exactly. He's described as Donald Trump. But that's another explanation. So who knows? But for our purposes, we can choose which one we like. So then he says, for 20 years, I have had first struggles. So this is Satchel talking. In other words, I've had first struggles descending into the dragon's cave for you. So the dragon's cave is like, there's a fierce dragon living in this dark cave, and the jewels are down his throat.

[42:21]

Or, jewels. In order to get the jewels, you have to go into the dragon's cave. We usually say the tiger's cave. If you want the tiger's cub, you have to go into the tiger's cave. That's called practice. So he says, I've been doing this for 20 years. And it's been very difficult. One monk says, Shane, after descending into the dragon's cave for you, the hardship defies description. You clear-eyed monks don't make light of it. So in other words, if you want to get something, of course, you have to pay a price for it. If you want something genuine, you have to pay a price. If you want the most genuine thing, the most valuable thing, you have to pay the highest price.

[43:24]

Right? It separates... I was just thinking about the highest price and I forgot what I was going to say. Good! That's the honest part. Well, you have to give your life. Say again? You have to give your life, isn't that the most right? Yes, so it's hard to say that. But if you don't give your life, you can't be open to what is life. That's right, you can't get it. Do you think the I that he's talking about is himself, is Satcho? Do you know any other koan where he talks about his own practice? I don't know. He's not exactly talking about his practice. It sounds like it. Well, he is, but he's not describing it. Well, he's kind of describing it. What did he say? He says it was really, really difficult. I know, but that's not a description. That's just a description of his feelings. Not a description of what he did.

[44:27]

That's what I mean. It's just a description of his experience. I went to China and I came back and you said, how was it? And I said, OK. Yeah? I did it. But they're not telling you anything about China. Well, OK is sort of bland. He's not being bland here. Yeah. OK. Fine. You've heard a lot of koans, right? I don't remember. I can't recall offhand. It just seems interesting that he would talk about, in the middle of all the different koans, he would talk about his own practice here. If that's the I. That just struck me. It seems unusual to me. Could it be a continuation of the same poem? Yeah, it could be.

[45:29]

I'm just saying, if it's you, that's why I'm asking. If it's sensual as the eye, it's unusual. If it's something else, then it's something else. Well... I think he could be saying, I have gone through the same thing that Baso went through. So this is related to Ichi, Ki, and Kyo. So I went through the same thing that Baso... That's why I understand where he's coming from when he says, Moon-Faced Buddha, Sun-Faced Buddha.

[46:36]

Or the opposite, Sun, Moon. So I identify with him because I understand how he got to be where he could say this. Right? Yeah. So then I think that also relates to the emperors and the sovereigns. That difficulty relates to the emperors and the sovereigns and also that poem. We're just talking about a prince who doesn't go through those difficulties. That's right. He's avoiding them, actually. Okay, one minute to stand up. So, where do you think What do you think the meaning of Baso's statement, Sun-Faced Buddha, Moon-Faced Buddha, is?

[47:48]

Where is he? What is he saying? What is his meaning? Well, that's so, but what can you say about, in a word? Justice. Justice. He's saying he's going to die in a day, but it's, what is death? That's a good question. It is what? Just turn the question around to get the answer. He could also be saying, I am strung up on a spider web of short and long life. I'm on a tension between moon phase and sun phase.

[48:51]

So how is he feeling about that? Well, he's like, this is where I am. When you ask me, you're going to find out that's where I always have been, between sun face and moon face. But when he asks if he's ill or not, he's not saying he's ill, he's not saying he's well. He's saying I'm stretched between. Makes no difference. Makes no difference. Well, I had a cold this week, and a lot of people asked me if I was feeling better. So I really thought I should be able to figure this out. You know, like... Yeah, we've all been in that place. I mean, really, I thought, now I should be able to figure out what this means that he's saying. And, you know, I realized I just feel the way I feel. You know, it's better, it's worse, but it's just the way I feel, you know.

[49:55]

That's what I... Or, it's just this feeling. Just this, and what does this have to do with our lives? Yes. Just this. I think there are two things. One is, we enter the world, the breeding world. We're in the water world. A human being goes through the various stages of evolution in the womb. The egg and the water, all these various stages, the fish stage, the lizard stage, Some people never get past that, and that's unfortunate.

[50:59]

But the scales and stuff, right? And then we enter the breathing world. I think that's where the trickiest thing is. The breathing world. But we don't ask for this. You might think we do, and then our life proceeds. moment by moment of time and existence. And we don't really have anything to do with that. And then we grow up just like a flower, and then we get to middle age and old age and die, so to speak. you know, exit. So that's one meaning of life. It's like we don't have anything to do with it.

[52:01]

We're just carried along, and we can't get any younger. You know, we can't change things that are fundamental and so forth. So that's one meaning of life. The other meaning of life is that although this is the basis, we have some free will. That's not free will, that's just destiny. But we do have free will enough so that we can make decisions and think and create. And so we're self-creating creatures. That's basic Buddhism. There's not fate. There is a fate in that we go from birth to death, but our lives are not fixed. So we can create karmic life, which carries us along, and we can make decisions and do creative things, which gives our life meaning.

[53:15]

Just eating and sleeping and doing stuff is not enough for us. For most, some people. For some, it's just, that's what it is. Eating, screwing, sleeping, and acting funny. These are through desire. But we can make our lives meaningful And that's the meaning. The meaning is how we make our lives meaningful while we are cooperating with eternal life, right? So temporary life is a cooperation. And if we don't cooperate, then we get out of balance. I think the meaning of our life is to stay in balance with our surroundings. Because then we realize that everything is helping each other and everything is making everything else happy.

[54:25]

But we try to abstract ourselves from that in order to collect stuff that makes us happy. Anyway, what was your question exactly? I kind of like this question. Just this? Just this, yes. And how do we relate to that? It's not that we relate to that, because that is not something to relate to. It's who we are, what we do, right? It's really hard to see things clearly as it is, because we're always biased. So the thing about this world is that it is a dualistic world. But we get trapped by the duality of our life. So when we practice Dazen, as an example, we let go of the dualistic life so that we can experience the oneness.

[55:38]

And when our practice is mature, then the oneness and the duality are cooperating, working together without a gap. That's maturity. Can we say that the sun-faced Buddha is like light and the apparent, the phenomenal world? Well, you could stretch it to do that. And the Moon-Faced Buddha, the Absolute, so that same Sun-Faced Buddha, Moon-Faced Buddha, is asking us to go beyond to the place where they are the same thing. Yeah, where there one is, as you described it earlier. You know, the Moon, well the Moon is, you know, has many different meanings. Enlightenment, actually. but it's a reflection that the sun reflects on the moon. And so enlightenment, I mean, the moon is kind of in between the earth and the sun.

[56:48]

The sun is like the source. Yeah. And the moon is like the sun, you could say like Dharmakaya Buddha. And the moon is like Sambhogakaya Buddha. And the earth is like nirmanakaya, because dharmakaya is the essential nature, basically light, the sun. And the moon reflects that light. Sambhogakaya is the interface between the sun and the earth, and the earth is the transformation place. the world is transforming, everything is transforming. So Sambhogakaya is like the wisdom which stands between heaven and earth, so to speak.

[57:49]

And when we pay attention, that becomes our wisdom mind. Isn't that paying attention? Rajab was getting it when he said, how do we relate to just this? He said, we can't really relate to that. But when you come back from daydreaming to just sitting, or if you're driving your car, you come back from daydreaming to just driving, isn't that relating to just this? No. What's the difference? It's seeing just this. You can only relate if there's more than one thing. So it's not... What about your intention and your Your intention is to stop the daydream and to go back to just what you're doing. So isn't that a kind of relationship between an intention and your present state? Well, you can think of it that way, and we usually do, because we usually think in dualistic terms. But it's really, you're not... What it does is it makes an object

[59:04]

It makes what an object? It makes just this an object. But maybe only for a split second. It's still an object. Do you think it's unnecessary? It's unnecessary. You're just there, that's all. You're not there, and then you're there. I think when you're intending, you're still daydreaming. Well, what about when Suzuki Roshi talks about getting lost and coming back? Yeah. But that's just a matter of speaking. Yeah. So, Jim, could we say, kind of like Maho was saying, maybe, we come and we play with relative values, this is good, this is bad, and so Sun-Faced Buddha, Moon-Faced Buddha, embrace them both, so that you know the long and the short of it, but don't embrace evil in a sense.

[60:15]

Don't get caught by either. Yes, that's true. Don't get caught by the absolute or the relative. And so this is the thing about non-duality. is that it's not the opposite of duality. Because non-duality is always there within duality. So when you think that you've wandered and then you come back, you're not really coming back to anything. There's no way to come back to anything, because whatever you experienced before is gone. So fundamentally, there's no such thing as coming back. That's just a convenient term we use. I go away, and then I come back. In a sense, you come back.

[61:16]

But absolutely, you don't come back. You're always going forward. I'm talking about in the relative sense. Which I think was how Raja was asking the question. Yes, but I would take putting it on a different level. Okay, so in an absolute sense, yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. I didn't want to put it on the same level that he was asking the question. Yeah. And also, it feels like if you're... when one is sitting exhausted and there's a sense of concentration and oneness and then you drift off, if you realize that you can't go anywhere, then there in fact is no drifting off, and by extension, you can't beat yourself up, oh, I need to be more mindful, or all that, even if that does come up, I should be not wasting my time. There's this encouragement not to waste time, but in another sense, you can't waste it. It's just a process of unfolding, moment by moment, whatever is arising and passing away.

[62:21]

If we get caught, especially like in Zazen instruction, I should be doing all this, which is important. That's right. So we follow the rules. And if you follow the rules, you'll have comfortable zazen at some point down the line. But at the same time, whatever you do is just what you do. You cannot say, oh, I had a terrible... You can say this, but... My mind was just going all the time, and I couldn't... One second where I wasn't thinking. And we think that's bad. We make these judgments of good and bad all the time. So, we do have to make those judgments. That's okay. But also, we have to realize that it's neither good nor bad, nor right nor wrong. It's just the way it is. So, just the way it is, is really just the way it is. All the rest is just our judgment about it. So, I think you said a little earlier, you know, you don't get

[63:25]

But how could you? Well, you could, you know. You could just be sitting in Zazen all the time. Yeah, but how could you? You still wouldn't be, would you? In other words, well... It's easy to get stuck in the relative. Right? That's the easy part. You know, like, you're always making judgments and... and discriminating all the time. So it's easy to get stuck there. But if we think, well, the other side is better... But really, there isn't another side. She's speaking on the absolute level now. Yeah. There isn't another side. But in order to understand something, we make the mistake of talking about two sides. But we know that we're making that mistake.

[64:27]

So we understand. I'm just wondering what you make of the question in both versions of this poem isn't, how has your health been, how is your health now? It's in recent days. So there's this emphasis on the time span, which is going to have change, it's going to have fluctuation. So it's an appropriate response to the way the question's asked. It is, but I don't think it matters. Do you think it would have been the same response is most appropriate, whether or not it's saying, right now, how are you feeling?

[65:30]

Or how has your health been in recent days? It just depends on... I don't think it's... it makes that much difference, how the question is. Because I think what she particularly says Basso is just expressing his composure. Just expressing his composure. I don't care. I don't want it to be one. I don't want it to be a day and a half. I don't want it to be 1,800 years. If it's a day and a half, it's a day and a half. If it's 1,800 years, it's 1,800 years. I neither want or don't want. I neither want to die or don't want to die.

[66:33]

But whatever is here is where I am. That's very important because to me that lifts up the warmth, the warm-heartedness in the relationship. You know, it has a quality and a tone to it. So whether that's reflecting reality or shining the light, it lifts up what's important in the relationship. He's not complaining. He's not wishing for something else. He's not not wishing for something else. He's just there. I'm just co-operating with life. I'm cooperating with birth and death, Jerry. What if I just said each moment is the universe? Yeah, each moment is the universe. Yeah. If you said it and really meant it, if you really... I mean it.

[67:38]

No. I mean it. No, I mean it. But if one said it, if one... If one said it. If one said it, and you've seen the Baso really feels that. It's not just something which is a good understanding but he really feels that then I think that's what's so interesting about this case one of them is that he can really say that and that he's not so that most of us are attached to our life he can really say one day or 1800 years is the same he but he really says that well he says it for a purpose too he says it to teach to to offer to his student, you know, and you also, we are the universe unfolding. Yeah. But also, he's not saying that they're the same, because they're different. Day and night is not the same as anything that is here.

[68:43]

His attitude is the same toward them. So, is it like, as you started the class, you said the teacher doesn't like to make a suggestion, because a suggestion can be limiting, because it narrows the view of the student. So, Baso is saying, neither one or the other. So, he's not allowing the student to take a narrow view. Yes, you know, this is also using this in a way to make a differentiation. But actually, these ancient Zen masters did these wonderful things, which he's saying is good for, you know, he's just trying to make Baso stand out among the rest. This often happens in introductions to these cases.

[69:54]

The author who is making the introduction tries to make the star stand out, you know, in his exaggerated language, like the stars are falling. It's a kind of exaggeration. in order to promote the person they're talking about. So, it has a dramatic quality. In reading the preface to Zenmai Beginner's Mind, there's a passage where Zukuroshi says, when I die, I may be suffering, But that's suffering Buddha. Well, he says that in his talk about this case. I was thinking that there is suffering, which has a kind of dualistic quality.

[70:59]

But Buddha is suffering, and that's the non-dualistic side. There's the suffering, the experience, and then there's Buddha just being with this being suffering. So this suffering is life. You can't avoid suffering in life. He says, this is quite simple. This is actually what we are doing every day. But the difference between Baso and us, ordinary people, is that for Baso, whatever happens to him, he can accept things as it is, as it happens. But we cannot accept everything. Something which you think is good, you may accept, but something which you do not like, you don't accept. and you compare one to the other, you may say, this is the truth, this is not true. This is the truth, and this is not true.

[72:03]

And he is a true Zen master, and he is not a true Zen master. Or he is a good Zen student, but I am not. That kind of understanding is quite usual. With this kind of understanding, you can't figure out what kind of idea we can sit with every day. Is that a whole talk on this? Yes. Part of it is, yeah. It's kind of edited to fit into that. And actually, it's in Not Always So. Yeah. Wouldn't it be the same if somebody said, Harry, you know, you're looking really fine today? You're looking really healthy? Yes. You could say the same thing. I would say don't call me names. Only if you're Jewish. Is it that you're... What's the Jewish thing?

[73:28]

I don't know, you said it, not me. I'm complaining, but it doesn't mean anything. You're not going to be happy either. That's right, yeah. Nothing will make me happy, I'm Jewish. So how would you, in one word, say what sun-faced, moon-faced Buddha means? Just this. Yeah. Just this. As was said by Ellen. Okay. These are some nice things in here. But the thing about the dying, that's in here. He says, if I die or if I live, it's the same thing. Among other phrases. He does. He says birth and death are the same thing.

[74:29]

They are the same thing, but two sides of the same thing. So we have a coin, we have heads and tails. So heads and tails belong to the same thing. Heads and heads and tails, tails. But it's his attitude that it's the same thing. Well, I think that's right. It's the same thing to him. Does he actually say that? Where does he say that? Say what? That they're the same thing. Yes. Where is it? Well, it's not exactly in here that there's... Maybe, but I... It's in Suzuki Roshi's talk. Oh, I thought we were talking about this case. No, no. He says, oh yeah, if when I die, the moment I'm dying, if I suffer, that's okay, you know, that's suffering Buddha.

[75:43]

No confusion in it. Maybe everyone will struggle because of the physical agony or spiritual agony too. But that is all right. That's not a problem. We should be very grateful to have a limited body like mine or like yours. If you had a limitless life, it would be a great problem for you." And then he laughs a lot. My wife's favorite TV program starts at 4 o'clock or 4.30. I don't know what the title is. Topper? Channel 7. Topper. Topper. There are some ghosts in the program. Some of them are monsters. people who lived a long time ago. They appeared in the world and created many problems for people and created problems for themselves. That is what happens.

[76:44]

We're almost reaching the moon now. I guess this is before the moon took off, the moon landing. But we cannot create a human being in its true sense. We can create a robot But we can't create a human being. Well, it may not be true now. A human being is a human being. We can enjoy our life only with our limited body and limited life. This limitation is a vital element for us. Without limitation, nothing exists. So we should enjoy the limitation. Weak body, strong body, man or woman. The only way to enjoy our life is to enjoy the limitation which was given to us. It's true, we cannot live without limitation. Well, limitation is what allows this body to exist. If there wasn't limitation, we would just expand, or not exist at all. Nothing happens. Only through limitation does something happen. That's why Sri Vigarishi always emphasized practice.

[77:47]

You can only practice through limitation, and that real freedom is through limitation. limitation, we don't have freedom. Because we think we can just do anything we want, and we call that freedom. But actually, it's not real freedom, because real freedom is only achieved through some kind of limitation. Within the forms. Within the form, yeah, within the form. Could you say about the freedom of the arhats that I don't want to go off the total subject? Well, that's why the arhats lost out to the bodhisattvas. No being to be, because they had unlimited freedom? Well, the Arhats actually limited their life too much. Because they felt that by retreating from the limitations of the world into the limitations of

[78:54]

not expressing their life in the world, that they found their freedom. Yeah, set by separation. So whatever it is, the limitation has some meaning. Not just the meaning, it has absolute meaning in it. That is the most important point. for us to know the limitations. So the Sun-Face Buddha, the Moon-Face Buddha does not mean I don't care whether it's the Sun-Face Buddha or the Moon-Face Buddha. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean I don't care. It means that whether it is the Sun-Face Buddha or the Moon-Face Buddha, we should enjoy the Sun-Face Buddha or the Moon-Face Buddha. It is not indifference. It is more than attachment. strong, strong attachment to the Moon-Faced Buddha or the Sun-Faced Buddha. But usually we say non-attachment.

[79:57]

When our attachment reaches the point of non-attachment, that is real attachment. So, if you are attached to something, you should be attached to something completely. Sun-Faced Buddha, Moon-Faced Buddha. That's a score. What? So attached that you don't have a self-definition, a separate self. Yeah, totally attached. Totally attached means there's no opposite. Total attachment, total attachment, non-attachment. That's like the forms, that's why we do forms, we really do the forms. How do you practice shikantaza? Just this. You totally are one with your activity.

[81:02]

When you're totally one with your activity, then there's no opposite at that moment. But because we're so used to opposites, it's hard for us to see that. It sounds like all you're talking about, I keep on thinking the other word, acceptance. What is acceptance? You know, if your experience or what's happening to you is this, you can accept it and be with it as it is, versus anything else, so acceptance is kind of like without hindrance. Is that what you mean? You just accept what comes without any resistance or... because attachment sounds like an active

[82:16]

You know, it sounded more like acceptance to me. Yes, it's acceptance, yes. Did you ever, in Chinatown, there are these little basket-y things you put your fingers in and then try to get your fingers out? Chinese handcuffs. Chinese handcuffs, yeah. So the more you try to get a way to escape the more you get caught. And that's the same thing in Zazen. Exactly. The more you try to escape, the more you get caught. The trick of Zazen is to be attached to Zazen without trying to escape. That causes all of our problems, is trying to escape. You had questions over there. I know, I think, yeah.

[83:19]

It sounds to me like when you say, if you're going to be attached, be wholeheartedly, be totally attached, to me that sounds like you're saying yes to both conventional, messy, arbitrary life, and the ultimate reality of Zazen. Yes. You're saying yes to both. When you actually have your freedom, then even attachment is freedom. There's a difference between being attached with your small mind and being attached with your big mind. When you're attached with your small mind, it's like, give me this, don't give me that. It's like being stuck. Yeah, but when you're attached with your big mind, it's like you've completely, what you said, accepted everything and can take it all in.

[84:22]

Yes. It's all included. Yeah. It's not partial. Because attachment is partiality. Is it correct to understand just this as right view also? Right view is the same? Sure. Yeah, right view. Right view means same things as it is. It's time to call it. Well, thank you. It's been very enjoyable. And thank Ron.

[84:57]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ