Sojourn Roshi. Yes. I've talked to you about... Can you bring it up a little bit, the volume? Can you hear me now? Yeah, that's better. Sometimes I get caught up in fears about the future, especially. And some of it is personal, like getting old and You know, the losses that come along with getting older, losing people or, you know, myself becoming, you know, decrepit or whatever. And then sometimes it's about the future of the country and what's happening to it. And you've said to me quite a few times over the years, you need to trust in the universe. Can you talk a little, tell me what that means or how I could do that better?

[01:04]

Well, you know, we say the true human, the huge human body, the true human body is the whole universe. So if you identify with the universe instead of just your body mind, then you can trust yourself. because you are the universe and you can't get lost. You can only get lost if you separate yourself because you'll be out there in space all alone. So we identify with our surroundings, we identify with our true human body instead of just the small body mind Try it. Does that mean seeing other people as, seeing that me and other people are part of the same?

[02:10]

Do you think that's true? Yes. I mean, how much do you believe it? I believe it a fair amount and then I forget. And that's it. Don't ever forget that whatever happens, you are an expression of the whole universe. And you identify with the whole universe as yourself. That's how you have no self. Your no self is the whole self. This sounds like philosophy. And it sounds like, you know, a belief system. But what else can you believe? I just wonder about being very old and, you know, I don't have children.

[03:18]

I don't know. I have one child, yeah. So. I'm not old. I'm only 51, 91. When you get to be 91, you can say, I'm old. So what? That's what you're supposed to be. You are exactly what you are supposed to be. You are not something else. Because you're old, that's what you're supposed to be. How do you manage when you're old? This is now. Enjoy it. I have to use a walker now. I don't have to, but I do. I mean, I'm starting to do that, you know. And a cane.

[04:19]

How is it for you? It's just what it is. You have to work with what you've got. What else do you have to work with? Life is, the two experiences at the end of life is, I have to get old because that's what I'm supposed to do, and I have to die, that's what I'm supposed to do. You're just doing what you're supposed to do. So you don't want to do what you're supposed to do. You want to do something else. You want to hang on to stuff. You are a Zen student, remember? Yes. But you don't believe it. Well, thank you for the reminder. That helps me a lot. Good. Sorry, I'm a little slow off the start.

[05:28]

Let's have Sue Osher. Sue, can you unmute? I'm here. Can you hear me? I can hear you, but you know, there's a line of people's pictures, and you fade into half of those. So I can only see half your face. Go to the right. Lean to the right. Yes, that's it. Right there. Stop. And unmute. Okay. Okay. Here we are. Here we are. That's exactly correct. Here we are. We are here. I am Yes, we are here and I'm glad. On this little map, you know, there's a little dot that you are here.

[06:31]

I really count on those signs. Well, yeah, the signs are all over the place. It's a constant reminder. Oh, yeah, I'm here. Yes. And I think Karen brought up the fact that we forget and we remind each other. I want to ask you about, because I have to say something. Otherwise, we just hang out and giggle or something. But I want to talk about my rakasu, my name, actually, the name you gave me. You have it on? Yeah, that's the outside. In order for us to do that, we want to see the inside. Okay, when Buddhas are truly, oh, don't move it around.

[07:35]

Move it more to the right. And up, up. Okay, do not move it. When Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they do not necessarily notice that they are Buddhas. That's the problem. The one that you wrote, my first one, that you said I had to get a new one because it was so falling apart. Yeah. I'll read it because it's falling apart. Well, wait a minute. Let me see if I can read it. OK, well, it's Dogen. You probably don't have it. It says, hold it up. That's it. Oh, this is, read it for me. My handwriting's too good. Sue, you're not, you're muted, Sue.

[08:45]

I hit the mute button with my rakasu, sorry. Take the backwards step to directly reach the middle of the circle where the light issues forth. That's not Dogon. It's derived from Dogon, but that's from Hongju. Oh, okay. You will find that in... I'll explain it to you. It doesn't need explanation, but I will explain it to you. Okay. Backwards step. And that... and stand in the center of the circle where light issues forth.

[10:00]

That's our life. I love that. I love it too, that's why I gave it to you. My name is, that you gave me, is Jumio Seichin. Bright pearl, pure faith is what was written on here. All good. That's how I wanted to check it out with you. Don't worry. We're still good, right? You know, step back into the circle where light issues forth. That's where you should always be. It's true. You can't lose. Stepping back changes perspective.

[11:07]

Yes. And it's a calm place for me. Yes. But this is where light issues forth. This is the circle where light issues forth. So what is the circle? Everything. Everything is contained within the circle. The source is another thought that arises. Yes, the source. In other words, Big mind, the source, never leave it. So I just, I want to thank you for my name and two different phrases on the Raukessus, and that's all I have to say, and use your walker in good health.

[12:17]

Thank you. It kind of gets you tired. You learn how to use it. Yeah. Anyway, I always give everybody the best name I can think of. Raghav, you're up. Sergeant Rashi. Can you see me okay, hear me okay? You're very photogenic. Really. You look like, when I look at you, you look to me like an India Raja, Indian Raja. I wouldn't know because I've never seen one.

[13:24]

It's not flattering. It's not flattering? Probably not. Oh. So when I sit Zazen in the morning and I don't know if this is deluded thinking or what it is, but sometimes I have this thought that I am setting the pace. You know, the whole, my experience, my entire experience, of everything around me, I'm, I'm sometimes I'm the master. And then some days that continues for a long time, I'm able to, uh, not lose that.

[14:38]

But then there are days when I work, I start working, And then by the time I sit in front of the computer and work, and by the time I'm done, like say, not done, say midday comes around, I'm totally lost. You know, I'm all, my energy is all here. So what I wanted to ask is how do you, sitting in front of the computer or doing work which involves thinking, you know, a lot of thinking, how do you stay grounded? Yeah, well, thinking is discrimination. So when you're sitting zazen, you let go of discrimination.

[15:44]

And everything, all of your senses and thoughts and breath all come together and there's no discrimination because it's all, everything is working together and you are fitting together with the universe, that's all. So that's why you feel like masterful. Yes, that's good. That's good. When I sit zazen, I feel masterful. And I feel like I'm sitting in the center of light, the center of the circle where light issues work. So then you get up, and you enter the discriminating realm. So you have to accept that.

[16:49]

That's where most of us live. When we're not sitting zazen, we live in the discriminating world, the world that's all cut into pieces. And when we sit zazen, we bring it all together into one. And that's the rhythm of our life. So learn how to do that. Don't think, oh, this is bad, or oh, this is wrong, or I should be da, da, da. Just learn how to sit, or learn how to, you are sitting when you're a computer, right? You don't have to, you can stand. But that's aside. But you're living in the world of discrimination. And so, say to yourself, how can I master the world of discrimination? How can I be a master in the world of discrimination? Or how can I not be overwhelmed by it?

[17:51]

That's my practice, is not to allow myself to be overwhelmed in the world of discrimination, but how to use it. So not run away from it, or escape it, or think it's wrong. but how do I use it? And that's your practice. Also, it's important. You're sitting in a chair, usually, right? So, Take the time, space yourself. Take the time to, even though you're busy, you know, have a little bell or something that goes off, you know, ding, and then you let go of everything.

[18:58]

Mine is still going on, right? But you let go of everything. Just put your hands in your lap and breathe. Just two thousand sitting in a chair. You can also sit on the cushion on the floor and set up your computer. To do this while you're sitting doesn't, that's not necessary and it may be, you know, it may be a hindrance. But take breaks. Take breaks where you just let the ocean come to get us. And five minutes, 10 minutes. You do this at home, right? You don't have anybody, you know. Yeah, whipping. So try that.

[20:07]

You can actually, you know, Control the situation better. Oh, I'm getting tired now, but I gotta keep going and I gotta keep going. Beat the boss and say, okay, stop. And then sit for 10 minutes, 15, a half hour. But start out slow so that you get used to that. and have a watch, you know, a watch that has a little timer on it, ding, there it is. So say, I will sit for a half hour, I will work for a half hour periods, or an hour period, whatever suits you. Then stop, and 10 minutes later, or 15 minutes later, ding. So you have to refresh yourself. Re-establish your calm mind.

[21:13]

Over and over. Try it. Thank you. Julianne Coleman, if you can unmute. Where are you? Can you see me okay? Now I can, yeah. Okay. This is kind of along the same lines as Raghav's question, actually. So in my practice as a bookbinder, I'm responsible for making or repairing finished objects. But as a Zen student, I want to focus on the process. And I want to be able to deal with mistakes and problems that come up. along the way. How can I resolve these things that seem to be at odds with each other?

[22:18]

Don't try to resolve. What's there to resolve? What problem are you trying to resolve? A mistake, right? So instead of taking this, you take that and it hurts. So we all make mistakes. Mistakes are part of our life, and we should learn from the mistake. Oh, I won't do that again. Or make sure you don't do that again. So you're not blaming yourself, but you're rebooting. You're starting over again. Every time you make a mistake, you acknowledge it's a mistake. Some mistakes, you know, are critical, right? You make a mistake on this book and the binding is not so good and the cover is not so good.

[23:20]

Sometimes you have to start over again. But how can I make this mistake into something positive? Many wonderful results come from mistakes that were made corrected by doing something even better with it, with something else that works. So that's the creative process. The creative process is to be able to not necessarily panic at a mistake. But what can I do that makes this mistake a positive thing? I mean, that's one way. We can't account for all mistakes. We don't know what to do with all mistakes.

[24:22]

But mistakes are part of the creative process. They always are. And our practice is How to work with mistakes. That's not a bad thing. It's how you use it instead of being used by it. What was the other thing? Mistakes and something else besides mistakes. I think you're stuck there. Your picture is stuck in that picture. Gary. Oh, I'm sorry. Can you still hear me? Yes, I am, but you're not moving. Can you still? Yeah, you're not moving. Oh, okay. Oh. Yeah. Oh, okay.

[25:23]

I'm still here. Yes, but you don't have to be sorry. Gary, are you monitoring this? Yeah, I am. I can't see her photo anymore, but I think she can hear you. So maybe if you just do a verbal bow, bow with your mouth. Yeah, OK. Thank you, Sojin. Thank you. Yeah, I hope you didn't drop that thing yet. I know you are. You're welcome. I hope that helps. I know you are. Yeah, I hope I didn't cut you. No, you cut her on. If you have more. Kiki, Kika, Susan. Thank you.

[26:24]

So, Jim. Hi. A couple of times this evening, you mentioned stepping back into the circle from which light issues forth. Yes, correct. And so I'm interested in the subtlety of that feeling. I mean, that sounds like zazen to me, stepping back into samadhi, into non-duality. Is that correct? Yes. Take the step back into the center of the circle where light issues forth. Yeah. Not to get that right, just to enter the center of the circle of life. So we're always, you know, we're always losing our balance and regaining our balance. Usually we don't think about it. I have to think about it all the time.

[27:27]

Now that I'm 91, I have to think about regaining how to maintain my balance all the time. That's a full-time job. So it should be a full-time job whether we're 21 or 91. That is to maintain our balance. And the way to do that is to stay in the center of the circle. It's so obvious. Do you have a word for what the circle is? Just a word? It's the center of life. It's the center of our life. It's where all the power comes from. It's where all the, everything comes from. And when we stray from that, and there's many names, big mind,

[28:36]

Varujana. I like Varujana a lot. I like Varujana too. The center of the circle. I feel like I have this more in my body than in my mind. Yes, that's good. You know, even though it's in your body, Unbeknownst, it's in your mind. Your mind is included. Everything is included. Yeah. I trust that's going to catch up at some point. Yeah. You take good care of yourself, and as you continue taking good care of your body, mind, and breath. So you're a good example. Baika, could you unmute?

[29:38]

So, General Shiha. Move over a little bit. Move to the right. Can you hear me okay? I can hear you okay, except when you're cutting out. Oh, okay. Maybe I'm too close. I don't know. No, you're fine. Just start talking. I'm asking you to be more centered. on the picture. You move the other way. That's your right. According to my right. That's your right hand, right left shoulder. Is this all right like this? Perfect. Oh, great. At last. So you often talk about harmonizing. Yes. And So you don't say, I like to harmonize. You say, I just harmonize. So I'm wondering, you know, I so appreciate your way, and sometimes I'm scratching my head, you know, how does he do that?

[30:48]

And then I just try to follow your example. But can you say more about, I know you mean more than just being respectful and kind to others. You mean something else. So can you tell us more about harmonizing? Well, it's how you respect everything, not just people. You respect everything. We don't usually do that. some people do, and to a certain extent we all do. But it's taking into consideration all of our surroundings. How do you, you know, how you not use things, but allowing yourself to be used by things.

[32:02]

Not just, respecting your own ideas, but how to respect the ideas that are around you, how you take everything in and work with everything. You know, I'll give you an example. When I used to go to the Zendo and go to the altar and look at all the, all the, I don't want to say objects because I don't consider them objects. Your friends? My friends, that's right. All my friends that sit up there all day long and all, I never complain. And arrange them in a harmonious way. So they're all expressing, each one is expressing itself, is able to express itself totally without hindrance.

[33:10]

And when the, you know, when one figure is carelessly put in front of another without thinking, you know, I'm blocking this one behind me from expressing itself. We don't think that way. We just, oh yeah, put it down, put it down. And then it's all over the place. That's a certain kind of harmony if you want to have a jazz band. But each figure on the altar is saying something because each one of them is there for a purpose. If they weren't there for a purpose, why put them there? Just to fill up the space? No. So you want the entire, to harmonize all those figures together so that they're making a harmonious statement about our life.

[34:20]

And that's an example. You see? The altar expresses the example of our life. It's not just fussing around. You don't block one of the guy behind you from speaking. And also, when we put the death certificates on the altar, they should not be blocking anything either. Nothing should be blocking them. That's the hardest part, because you can't put them up there without them blocking something. But you can. How do I put this up without blocking, this block up there without blocking something?

[35:29]

somebody else. So you're letting go of your own discriminating mind so that you're freeing all these figures to express themselves. That's harmony. You let everything express itself. You don't have to do anything except let your surroundings express itself. It doesn't mean you can't stop something that's not good. But basically, you know what's going on. And when you're sitting in Zazen, You're letting the whole universe express itself through you.

[36:31]

Got it. Thank you so much. Excuse my talking too much. I do have one more question if you have time. I do have one more question if you have time. Well, you know I have time. That's all I've got. What is the light? everywhere. It feels good. It feels good. Nothing feels better. Thank you so much. Take care. Okay, Ed, you're on. Hi, So Chen. Good to see you. I have a question that came up for me when I was doing Zazen.

[37:38]

It's a comment that I understand that Suzuki Roshi made to a student where he said, you don't do Zazen, Zazen does you. And I'd like you to, it feels important to me, and then maybe I'll say a little bit more, but I'd like to hear what you're, if you wouldn't mind commenting on that. Well, of course. So, he's making a point, and When we sit zazen, it's not me sitting zazen. It's a Buddhist practice. So we switch over from my practice to Buddhist practice. We become, instead of being self-centered, we become Buddha-centered.

[38:45]

So when we become Buddha-centered by sitting zazen, we let go of self. It's not me. We let go of me. and mine. That zazen is letting go of me and mine. It's Buddha's practice. We just hop into it. But it's actually, it's not just Buddha's practice. I am practicing Buddha. and Buddha is practicing me. It is not my practice. I give myself over. When we sit zazen, we just give ourself over to zazen. And the only volition we have is to sit zazen.

[39:52]

So we're not creating karma. Karma is volitional action. That's all. So it's called great freedom and great creative activity. It's not like sitting down, you know, on the couch. No, you can do as I'm sitting on the couch. Right? Yeah. Well, it's, um, thinking about this, it's actually helped me. I finally, um, understand your Zazen instruction. It finally, finally helped me realize that. And, um, Yes, why should I be doing that?

[41:00]

Yeah, the other side of it is, it says, Dao Zen does you, and you probably can't answer this, but if it's doing me, what is it doing? It's allowing you to express your Buddha nature. That's all it is. It just allows you to express your Buddha nature. Or it just allows you to express Buddha nature, nevermind your. Because nothing belongs to you. This body, this body is not yours. All your possessions are not yours. They're there for you to use. Nothing belongs to anybody.

[42:02]

Nothing. Nothing as a noun. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Susan Dunlap. Hi, Sojin. Oh, hi, Sue. So the last time you said to me, what is the most important thing? And I thought about that. And then you said the most important thing is birth and death. Really? And I am confused. It seems to me that birth and death that we as regular people off the street, that's the thing we have the least control over.

[43:20]

Yes, exactly. And I think that Dogen said birth doesn't bleep into death. So, there's birth. Birth does not become death. Birth is birth, death is death. Well, what's between them? And. And. Birth and death, although it's hard to separate them. You can't separate them, actually. Birth is one side of the coin. Death is the other side of the coin. So what's the coin? Birth and death, they appear almost simultaneously.

[44:22]

One complete One complete moment of existence is birth and death. You can't say, well, birth is existence, right? No, death is existence as well. They're the same thing expressed differently. And that's it, there's nothing else. Well, what else would you like? Maybe a buffet between them? Well, the buffer is a dream. The buffer is our dream of existence.

[45:25]

So most of the time, we live in a dream. And we don't question, or we do question, or we're curious, or we're stumped or something. Because we don't necessarily associate death with birth. We're born, and so many years later, we die. That's one way of thinking about it. That's the usual way of thinking about it. Because when birth appears, that's all we think about. We do it. We see people dying all the time. That's not us, right? But it is us. Birth and death is happening every moment. It's not like Down the line, we die. Although that's one way of thinking about it. That's one aspect, and that's what we usually think about.

[46:31]

But actually, each moment is a moment of birth and death. That's called a moment. A complete moment is a moment of birth and death, not just a moment of being alive. Because I don't think about life as the opposite of death. If you think of life as the opposite of death, then you've got this duality of life and death. But if you think of birth, not life, life is the same, well, life is what we think of as a moment of birth and death. So every moment is a moment of birth and death. So we're living, dying, living, dying, living, dying. It goes back and forth. Even though it goes back and forth, it's almost simultaneously. That's my understanding.

[47:34]

So every moment is a moment of birth and death. So you can't have one without the other, right? That's not possible. a moment of birth and then a moment of death. It goes faster than that. But it's a sequence. But if you see it as one complete rotation, time stops. because time is determined by birth and death. So if you want to be in the timeless realm, you don't think of it as two different things. They're two aspects of one thing. It's like breathing in and breathing out.

[48:41]

Taking an in-breath is called inspiration. And inspiration means coming to life, right? That's what it means. And followed by a moment of expiration, where you breathe out. Inspiration, so each moment is a moment of birth and death. It's not like, now I'm alive. But you can think about it, now I'm alive and now I'm dead. Of course, when you're dead, you don't think about whether or not you're alive. Enjoy your death. Enjoy your moment of death and birth instead of worrying about one or the other. That's how you stop worrying. Could you say again about, and time stops? Yeah, because Time stops when there's no birth and death.

[49:47]

If you have a circle without a break, right? So actually, every moment is a circle without a break, except that we break it up and we worry about the breakup. I think I'm not gonna ignore it. It's, you know, complex thing to study, but it's good to think about it, and it's good to discuss. It should be a subject to discuss, and I'm willing to discuss that as a, with people as a thing. I say, could you say that list again? You're willing to discuss that as a thing as a discussion subject. I would like to do that.

[50:52]

Thank you. You're welcome. Bud, Liz, you're on. Sojourner Oshie. You hear me okay? Oh yeah. Okay. Loud and clear. I also wanted to ask you about Dharma name. You gave me the name Jhando Ankyo. Pure hearted way. What kind of way? Pure hearted way. Yes. Blissful dwelling. What was the second one? Blissful dwelling. Blissful dwelling. Blissful. Blissful, well, yes. You know, often when giving a name, we use the person's name to express the dharma. Blissful Bud Bliss.

[51:56]

Your whole name, actually, your given name, Bud, and bliss, right? What is a bud? A bud is, yeah, the gestation of a flower. You know, just using your name as it is. I only used the bliss part, right? Right. And what was the first part of the bliss, the name? Jondo Ankyo. You gotta say it in English. Pure-hearted way. Yes. Blissful dwelling. Yeah, blissful dwelling. Yes. Dwelling, okay. So, blissful. Well, I could be more beautiful. Well, that's the problem. Shouldn't be a problem.

[52:59]

I totally accept it. It's just like you. Well, thank you. Sometimes when we give a name, the first name is kind of the way the teacher sees you. And the second part of the name is like hope or kind of expectation or something that would express what you would grow into. The first part is like, this is how you are. And the second is how the teacher would hope for you. Maybe not in the future, but just hope for you. So, yeah.

[54:00]

And often, I don't want to say mostly or every time, but often, you know, it's a kind of ideal name, right? So the name is, it's an ideal name, and it's the teacher's encouragement. So you can't say, you know, you can't say, well, it means this or it means that exactly. It's just encouragement. The problem for me is the pure hearted way part. I don't see that in myself. I don't feel very pure hearted. No, but down there somewhere, you are pure hearted. When you step into the center of the circle, that's pure hearted. You know, we don't think of ourself as part of, as the ideal name.

[55:17]

We always think of ourselves as the real name, or the, not the real name, but the given name. So, you know. Sojin, you know. is my kind of ideal name. But I don't live up to that at all. It's just an encouragement by my teacher. It's a purity. Purity is in my name too. But I don't think I'm like that. I think my teacher's blessing on naming me, it's totally ideal.

[56:27]

There's nothing about it. But yet, there is something. I don't know what it is, but he sees it in me. And I saw it in you. Thank you. You're welcome. Excuse me, we have time for one more question. Could Darian Rizad? Darian. Darian. Darian. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, good. It's got to be turned up a bit. Can you hear me now? Yes. Hi, Dorian. OK. Hi. It's wonderful to see you and to talk to you. Yes.

[57:29]

Is the sound coming through? Yes, yes, yes. Everything's good. Good. Good. It's my birthday, so it's a very wonderful present to get to talk to you. OK. How are you? Sixty-seven. Sixty-seven. That's how old Suzuki was when he died. Speaking of teachers, what advice do you have to a lay teacher who is just starting out? What advice would you have for somebody just starting out to teach? What kind of advice would you give them? In your case, you've been practicing for a long time. 28 years.

[58:30]

28 years? How many? Yeah, 28 years. So you have some background and you're in a situation where You're in Iran, and you're trying to make, but you've been there a long time. And you want to express the dharma, and you want to help people to understand the dharma, right? And you are a layperson. You practiced with me at Tassajara and so forth. And my advice is to do what you can, and to know exactly what it is that you can teach, and exactly what it is that you can't teach, or you're not qualified to teach.

[59:36]

So you look at what it is that you're qualified to teach, and Do what you can using what you feel comfortable with. Not to go past your comfort zone. Sometimes we do, even though it's past our comfort zone. You have to express it anyway. And that actually helps us because what did I just say? And then you have to research what you're talking about. So to do what you, to express yourself in a way that you feel comfortable with and that you can back up.

[60:42]

When someone asks you a question, you can back it up. And if you can't quite back it up, that helps you to learn. You go back to the book and you learn because you're always learning. If you're not always learning, then you just have static stuff. So to go slowly so that you think that you realize that, you're responsible for whatever you say. And whatever you say will eventually come back to you. So you have to take some risks, but your basic teaching is what you have confidence in.

[61:45]

always speak with confidence. And if you say, well, maybe I'm just making this up to say, excuse me, but I have to do my own research. That's a very good thing to do. You know, I teach you what I know and what I don't know. It helps me to learn what I don't know. So you're always I think it's good to ask questions. Good that we have Zoom. Music. When you have difficult. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thank you. One other thing. Yes. Can you please name this kitten I found It's about two weeks old and it doesn't even know how to lap milk yet.

[62:56]

Can you name it, please? It should be a simple name so that when you say something, you can respond. Is it a he or a she? I think it's a he. I think it's a he. Wait a minute. I think it's a he. I think it's a she? No. She? He. It's a he. He. Oh, OK. Bella. What? Stella. Stella? It means star. Star. Yeah. OK. Thank you.

[63:58]

That's fun. It's good to have a cat for a companion. Yeah. Take care. OK. If Kika could unmute and chant the four vows for us, we'll close out the night. Thank you all for coming. I had a follow-up question. That's OK. Go ahead. Let me get in. I was thinking about when we step back into the circle, where light issues forth. You know, philosophically, I get that somehow, but practically, what does it mean when I'm interacting with somebody? What am I employing when I'm interacting with somebody?

[65:02]

That's where the rubber meets the road. You're allowing the light to speak. Step back into the light so the light speaks to you. And that feels like openness? That's the light. The light is openness. There is nothing that is more important than the light. So we let the light speak to us. What impedes the light? Us. Yeah, we did. Just something that occurred to me with Darion's question is that I remember Norman Fisher said when he was first ordained, he told a story that he asked you, well, I don't know anything. What am I going to teach anybody?

[66:03]

And you said to him, well, you could point them to the Zendo, can't you? Just turn yourself over to it. Take the plunge. Take the plunge. Deep soak. Thank you, Roshi. You're welcome. Thanks, everybody.

[66:38]

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