I'm trying to remember where we stopped last time, but I think it was at line three. But we may have gone farther. I think we, were we on, oh, I've got an arrow here, which is probably not there, which is it. Touching things. That's where we didn't do yet, right? Yeah, that's right. That's line three. There are 20 lines in this, There are 20 lines in this Lancet of Seated Meditation. And we're on the third line. And the third line says, it knows, or it knows without touching things, which is something like saying free of sensation.

[01:23]

Knowing here, of course, does not mean perception. For perception is a little measure. It does not mean understanding, for understanding is artificially constructed. It's something that's done with the mind, the mind's construction. Therefore, this knowing is not touching things. This knowing is not touching things. And not touching things is knowing. Such knowing should not be measured as universal knowledge, or you could say by the standard of universal knowledge. It should not be categorized as self-knowledge. This not touching things means when they come in the light, I hit them in the light, and when they come in the dark, I hit them in the dark.

[02:30]

It means sitting and breaking the skin born of mother So that sounds a little violent, but it's not an uncommon thing to say in Tang Dynasty Zen. What are you reading from? What am I reading from? 201. 201? So how does he use the word hidden? Well, what do you think? I don't know. Be one with it? Be one with it? Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. If you're getting something that doesn't sound right without seeing it before you. What about hitting something in the light?

[03:36]

Well, I get the feeling of non-discrimination. Whether they are here or there, I take them as they come, rather than saying, well, I see this and I like it as it is. I don't see it, so I don't know what it is, sir. That sounds good, too. Yeah, way there in the back. Mark? Oh, you just... Excuse me. Well, the footnote, 33. He talks about sitting transcending the physical body.

[05:01]

When they come to light, it's from a saying. He just says it was attributed to. But he says, this interpretation is much debated. We may take it to suggest here the detached spontaneity of the mind in meditation, which I think what both Jesse and Steve said sounds close. She said, being one way. That sounds right. And also, responding in a non-discriminating way. Sounds right. I hit, you know, is a kind of common saying in Tang Dynasty Zen. You look puzzled.

[06:05]

Me? Well, that's what you do. Hit means like, you know, being right on. Has the feeling of, you know, being right on or a spontaneous... What? You know, that old show, like, is it a hit or a miss? Hit or miss? Yeah. I don't know about the show, but... But, uh, it has the feeling of, you know, spontaneously being present. Or it's like a shout, you know. A shout is like a hit. And it is an expression of being completely awake, being completely present. and expressing what can't be expressed except spontaneously.

[07:09]

Before thinking, before, you know, just completely responding. You come in the light and bam! You come in the dark and bam! No gap. I have the feeling of no gap between an action and a response. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of reaching back for your pillow in the night. That's what came to my mind. But maybe it's not... Well, that's something... This has... doesn't really have much to do with dark and light, you know. Right, that's the image I got. Yeah. Now I'm thinking of the story, I forget how it goes exactly, but it's something like the two people talking about Anyway, to show the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas, he said, oh, it's easy to show, and he says to the monk, hey, you, and the monk says, what? And he said, there you go.

[08:14]

It's that sort of... Yeah, and also, right, it has to do with, it's like giving 30 blows. Or giving one blow, actually. You know, the teacher always has a stick in the doksan room, And often, just when the student doesn't get it, the teacher just gives the student a hit. Because then everything's gone, you know. It's like something very immediate. I don't have a stick in the Dokusan room. I do have a stake in the docks I made in Berkeley. But I've never used it. So knowing, knowing here of course does not mean perception.

[09:34]

So it's not the knowing of perception. And it's not the knowing of understanding, mental construction. It's a different kind of knowing. It's not a knowing that's associated with touching things or sensation. And it can't be measured by the measurement of universal knowledge. And you can't categorize it as self-knowledge. It just means, when they come in the dark, in the light, I hit them in the light. When they come in the dark, I hit them in the dark. It's like the most accurate thing there is. It doesn't need any intermediary. Intermediary is like sensual perception or thought. Yeah, intuition. Exactly, intuition.

[10:37]

If the meaning of the word intuition... We have to define what we mean by intuition, though. In the sense that intuition means directly knowing. Yeah. Do you have the other translation? Yes, which I will read to you. Here he says, it is knowledge attained free of sensation. Knowledge is not memory. He uses the word memory. Memory is an inferior kind of knowledge. Nor is it comprehension, because comprehension is created knowledge. Therefore, knowledge, in quotes, is free of sensation. Free of sensation is true knowledge. Neither universal nor individual knowledge can be measured. Free of sensation means, if you come with light, I'll smash your light. If you come with darkness, I'll smash your darkness and shatter all obstacles of body and mind.

[11:41]

It's a bit different, yeah. But if you look at it carefully, it's not so different. I understand, but I can't understand these wordings at all. That wording I can understand. Maybe this is better for me, therefore. No, no. I think this is easier. And as I said before, last time, that it flows better. And it's not such... What does he say? He says, pardon my forced language or something. And it feels that way. Kind of crimped, you know. Is this describing the difference between reacting and responding? No, I wouldn't use reacting and responding in this sense. It's intuition.

[12:44]

Intuitive knowledge which does not depend on sense perceptions or mental constructions. It. It. Who's it? Yeah, what is it? That's a good question. What is it? He doesn't use the word it here. No. So, he says the dynamic element. Very well, yeah. So, okay, well, we can talk about what is it for a minute. I think I did before, but I will again. It is a word which doesn't have any particular object. So I can say, this is an it, and this is an it. Whatever I point to is it, but I don't have to say what its name is.

[13:47]

So I can, whatever I'm talking about, I can refer to it once, and then the rest of the time I can refer to it as it. But it can be anything I point to. I can point to anything there is, any object, and refer to it as it. So, it is kind of a universal pronoun. and stands for everything and anything, and yet it has no character of its own, and yet everything is it. It's also used sometimes without a referent. It's raining, it is raining. Right. What's the it in that? Right. So it is the indescribable, and yet you can describe

[14:55]

it in all kinds of ways. You can describe it in myriad ways, but the description used doesn't describe it, it just describes its manifestation. So everything is a manifestation of it, but yet it is not describable. Could you say it doesn't have any fixed mark then? It doesn't have any fixed mark, exactly. It is big mind. Yeah, it is big mind, but big mind is just a term we use. Right. Right. It is big mind, but it is also small mind. It is big mind, it is also small mind. So, it... Yeah. They've got a dessert called that. It's it. I flashed on that when I first saw it. That's why I always wanted one.

[15:57]

But when you bite into them, because the cookie is so crisp, when you bite into it, the ice cream goes squishing out the bottom. That's it. No, it's a problem, that's right. If you want to study the nature of the universe, just take a bite into that and you'll see what happens. So, the dynamic element is what the essential function is. It's called the essential function. It's also called the dynamic element. It's using different terms to describe the various functions. the essence and the function, right? Those are the two aspects that are being used here. The two aspects of it are the dynamic element and the essential function.

[17:07]

Or, as he says in the very beginning, the essential function of all the Buddhas and the functioning essence. So those are the two, essence and function. So I'll read the third one again. It is knowledge, the dynamic element. So when he's talking about it here, he says it is like the so-called dynamic element. It is knowledge attained free of sensation. is not memory. Memory is an inferior kind of knowledge. What he uses for memory is mental construction. Nor is it comprehension, because comprehension, that's mental construction, is created knowledge. Therefore, knowledge is free of sensation. Free of sensation is true knowledge. Neither universal nor individual knowledge can be measured.

[18:14]

Free of sensation means, if you come with light, I'll smash your light. If you come with darkness, I'll smash your darkness and shatter all obstacles of body and mind. So, the point he's making is that it's free, it's intuition, free of sensation and mental constructions. And then the next line, it illumines without facing objects. That's the fourth line. And this next paragraph includes the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th lines. In the beginning here, up to this point, you can follow the commentary according to each line, but now it starts getting a little more amorphous. You know, you think, well, wait a minute, what is this one? You know, you try to match the commentary up to the lines, you can't do it.

[19:18]

So it gets a little more free form here, but everything is included. And so anyway, as far as I can discern, this next paragraph includes lines 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. And it illumines without facing objects. So, the last line was talking about knowing. This line is talking about illumination. It illumines without... Another way of saying this is that it illumines free of causality. Free of causality means it's not dependent on cause and effect. It doesn't have any particular cause for its existence.

[20:22]

In other words, it doesn't come and go through causes. It just is. This illumination does not mean the illumining of luminosity or of spiritual illumination. It means simply without facing objects, or independent of cause and effect. In this meaning, the illumining does not change into the object, for the object itself is illumining. Without facing, or independent of, means it is never hidden throughout the world. It does not emerge when you break the world. In other words, if you crack open the world, It's not contained inside the world so that if you cracked open the world it would jump out. It's a kind of clumsy language. It does not emerge when you break the world. Just because you break the world doesn't mean it's going to leap out.

[21:25]

It is subtle. It is mysterious. It is interacting while not interacting. This is a line from the Sandokai. or from the Hokyosama. So he's saying that this illumination is not dependent on cause and effect. It's just something that's always present. You know, this language, I just realized, this language makes me think of, like I'm listening to a Hindu, you know, Upanishad or something about the subtle essence inside, you know, like this it sounds like an atman or something, otherwise the language is leading that way. Right, right. It has that, but he's saying it's not like that. He's saying it's not something that's contained somewhere. It's not like if you crack open the world, you know, that there it is.

[22:30]

Yeah, I know. And so, let me go over this a little bit. So this illumining does not mean the illumining of luminosity, like a Hindu would say. It's not the illumining of luminosity of spiritual illumination. He's not saying that that's what it is. It simply means that it's independent of cause and effect or without facing objects. In this meaning, the illumining does not change into the object for the object itself is a limit. That's a little strange language. I'll read you the other one. And without facing means it is never hidden throughout the world. It's not hidden in the world so that when you break open the world it emerges. It is subtle and mysterious. It is interacting while not interacting. But it's not apart from everything. He's trying to say that it's not something that you can put your finger on and yet it's not apart from everything.

[23:31]

So here he says, illumination independent of causality. This illumination is neither intellectual illumination nor spiritual illumination. It is illumination independent of cause and effect. This illumination does not alter causality because causality itself is illumination. So to say that it's independent of illumination doesn't mean that of causality doesn't mean that it's aloof from causality. It's the very essence of causality. But it doesn't depend on causality. Independent of manifests the entire world without anything being concealed. The universe is shattered and nothing sticks out. It is subtle, it is miraculous, it is harmonious, and it is interrelated. Dogen is very much intrigued with this word illumination.

[24:51]

And in Zen, Master Umbon uses this illumination a lot. And two of the koans in the Blue Cliff Record deal with koans of Uman talking about illumination or light. And Dogen actually, in his fascicle Komyo, which is I talked about that last time. Komyo is divine light, translated as divine light, or as usually that. And he says this light is no... People think that divine light means some certain kind of light.

[25:53]

But he's using Komyo, or light, as a synonym for Buddha nature. So what he's really talking about is Buddha nature. He's not talking about some separate kind of thing, you know. It's just a synonym for buddha nature. And he's talking about it, so he's saying, but if you try to identify this light in some special way, you can't do it. It also appears as darkness. So the illumination here, you don't necessarily see it as light. As a matter of fact, in the Sandokai, it says the same thing.

[26:59]

Don't try to see it as light. Don't try to see it as darkness. So this is what Dogen's talking about, this same idea, this same understanding. I don't know. What do you think? I was thinking about two songs by musicians and there's one part of it showing more of the utter darkness or the same. Is that what you call it? Right. In Tozan's five positions we have darkness and light, right? The dark and the light. The absolute and the relative.

[28:02]

And even though we have one circle that's dark and one circle that's light, they're both aspects of light. Of illumination. Or Komyo. So this Komyo is not dualistic. It's not the light or the illumination which is the opposite of darkness. That's the point. But you can't have one without the other. That's why this light doesn't look like light that's the opposite of darkness. It's just a synonym for Buddha nature. Christian tradition says that darkness and light cannot abide together. And that's been going around in my head since I was an adult. Well, that's why Buddhism is different than Christianity.

[29:06]

Because that concept is a dualistic concept. It's the battle between dark and light, which the Christian is always fighting. But in Buddhism, Buddhism always expresses reality as a synthesis, or beyond the duality of dark and light. Beyond the duality of dark and light, it's called light. Or you can call it darkness. You can call it either one you want. This is the same, as I keep saying, in order to express non-duality in dualistic language, you take the dualistic term and use it in a non-dualistic way.

[30:08]

And it's called koan. So, does the dog have buddha nature? No. But this no is not the opposite of yes. This no includes yes. So this illumination also includes darkness. Otherwise, we can't express non-duality in words. So in order to express non-duality in words, we use the language of duality, but we use it in a non-dualistic way. But if you insist on If you don't allow your mind to make that conclusion, then you think it's crazy.

[31:14]

Thank you. What I'm wondering is, listening to this, this, like knowing without perception or other mental formations, this illumination, what kind of experience is this? It sounds like, is this, I mean, I'm listening and going, can I relate to this with my experience? What experiences I had in my lifetime that fits into this And this sounds sort of like this language I hear about being mysterious. It sounds like this is like a mystical experience to have this kind of note. So then I go, well, here we go, you know, the mystical experience. It does feel like it can be something. It doesn't feel like from other teaching in this tradition that it could be something like other than just everyday experience.

[32:17]

It must be somehow, this experience must somehow be an everyday experience. So I can't find an example of my own experience that I could say, oh, this is like that experience. I don't know what experience this is. He's talking about the experience in zazen, or maybe the reality of zazen, regardless of your experience. Well, I was thinking kind of the same thing, like it seems to me it's beyond some intellectual understanding, like you have to experience it in some way. You have to experience it to understand it. You have to experience it to understand it. But you experience it all the time. Are you saying you do or don't have to?

[33:19]

Yeah, it's like, when we say experience, you know, what do we experience with, you know? So experience, it falls a little bit short of the mark. Well, I was thinking, as you say, we experience it all the time, and the problem is, not that we don't have these experiences, or some word other than experience, But that as soon as we stop and look back and say we've experienced it, we've already lost the essence of it. Because it's not an experience. It's the experience that's always with you that you don't ever recognize. There's something like that. no matter what you're doing. A little more simply.

[35:13]

I mean, it's biochemical. I'm talking about a different thing. I'm just talking about being involved with something. Right, right. Runnismography is actually a specific kind of a thing. But the correlation there is easier to explain. Well, this has nothing... it doesn't really have to do with any special experience. It's not something that only appears as a special experience. But if you have a string of pearls or beads, different kinds of beads, elaborate beads, little beads, big beads, and all these beads are like your mental and emotional and physical experience. experiences.

[36:44]

But the thing that keeps these beads all together is the string. But you don't see the string. You don't even know there is a string. But the string is the thing that runs through all of your experience, or all of your activity. It keeps the beads all together. And if you look at the string, you would say, what's that? That's not very interesting. So the illumination maybe is the most uninteresting thing in your life. And you always ignore it. So you say, well, that's not within my experience. Because it's not only is it the most subtle thing, but it's the most dominant thing. But because our mind is always discriminating, we can't see it, or we can't... we don't... are not aware of it.

[37:59]

So, intuition, or directly touching, knows this. But our experience doesn't necessarily know it, and our senses don't feel it, and our thinking doesn't get to it. But it's apparent in zazen because there's less obscuration. Zazen is like taking off the covers. And so it's there, but you don't necessarily experience it. You don't necessarily experience it as an experience. Yeah, we can talk about it, but I don't think you can, you know, when you try to describe it, then you lose it.

[39:24]

Because it's trying to fix the marks. Right, you're trying to fix it to a mark. Do you think, though, that perhaps one of the ways that we can keep ourselves going is that certain special experiences are where we become aware of it. And so therefore, then we make the mistake of thinking those special experiences are it. But if we could get off of that, we can in fact still say, ah, that special experience shows me what is in fact available to me all the time, but only under this special when I was making a pot, or Thank you. When I was having a nail, and there it was, and I knew it. But not to get stuck and think that that's the only thing. That's the thing. That's right. Thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

[40:30]

Isn't it required, if you are getting in touch with the strength, Doesn't one require some foundation? That if one becomes closer to the string, you're able to handle it? In the sense that if you did confront the string, then you didn't have the foundation, you would not even know that you're even looking at the spring, and that it might not have any significance to you, and that the foundation is required as part of that. Well, what do you mean by foundation? I mean, what are you saying about foundation? You could say it's the form. You need the form... Oh, I see. ...in order to... Yeah, you need... Right.

[41:32]

...not only recognize it, but also to be able to handle it. Right. Yes. And put it into practice. Right. That's right. The question I have then is, how come when you do get closer to the string, how does that work that it starts changing the beat? Well, you don't get closer to the string. But you get, the string gets wider or bigger or changes or whatever. Well, only our perception gets wider or When I say perception, I mean awareness. Right. But the string doesn't go or come. Doesn't what? Doesn't come or go. It doesn't get farther away or closer. But it creates a transformation. Well, transformation is created. Is there a difference between the string and the beads? The string is the string and the beads are the beads. But the string is the beads and the beads are the string.

[42:35]

But other than the beads, there is no string? Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form, right? But form is form, and emptiness is emptiness. The white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. The mountain is the child of the white cloud. All day long, they depend on each other without depending on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is just the blue mountain. It seems to me people are speaking of the string in terms of something other than the beads. Yeah, it's not... It's like the string beyond the beads. It seems like the string is a way of... String is the essence of the beads. What? String is the essence of the beads. The string is the essence of the beads. The essential factor. String is the essence of the beads. I'm strung out. It's just a metaphor.

[43:44]

Don't get too... What? Don't get strung out on it. Okay. Then, number nine, line nine, it's knowledge inherently subtle. And then line 10, it is ever without discriminatory thought. That is dualistic thinking. So it's really one thing until the mind starts taking it apart. So, you know, essence and function is really one thing, until the mind starts taking it apart, discriminating, and the language is the discriminator.

[44:46]

And discrimination is necessary, but it leads us to the belief that of independence. Suzuki Roshi in Sando Kai lectures coined the word independency. And he kept using this word, you know, when he was doing the Sando Kai lectures. And I said, you're saying independency, but we don't have such a word. You mean interdependency? Interdependence? He said, no, no, I mean independency. I don't mean interdependence. We're dependent. Everything is dependent. It looks independent. And even though we feel dependent, we actually have some feeling of independence.

[45:58]

So, not quite independent, and not exactly dependent. So whichever side you fall into, the other side picks you up or gives you a problem. So we either tend to think that we're independent or we tend to think that we're dependent. So We're right in the middle. Not independent completely and not dependent completely. So, whichever way you think we are, we're not quite that way. Whatever we think. We're not quite existent and we're not quite non-existent.

[47:00]

We're both existent and non-existent. We're both dependent and independent. We're both here and not here. We're both real and not real. So any kind of description is going to have a problem with it. That's right. And any kind of description is going to have a problem with it. So he said, the essence of Soto Zen is yes, but not quite. Every time we try to define something, we get into trouble. It ain't necessarily so. So we live on the fine line between these dualistic polarities. And that's where we live.

[48:06]

But we are always trying to define it one way or the other. We always want to make sure that it's either this way or that way, you know. And so we fall into one side of the duality or the other side of the duality. Or we fall into uncertainty. So uncertainty is like the kind of counterfeit of realization. If you have realization, you can be very positive about the uncertainty. If you don't have realization, then uncertainty is confusion. Is this like Dogen saying that he realized his The nose was vertical and his eyes were horizontal?

[49:08]

Well, yeah. This was his certainty about... Right. This is the only thing I know. The nose goes this way and the eyes go this way. That's the only thing I know. But he... there was no doubt about it? I don't have any doubt about that. But... Yet... I don't think anyone here doubts that configuration of their face. But what does this mean, you know? Actually, what does this mean? The nose is this way, the eyes are this way. Right, that's what it means. It means, you know? No matter what happens, I'm like a gyroscope. You always have fun.

[50:11]

I always come up. Those vertical and horizontal aspects. That's right. I always come up sitting up. I always end like a cat. You know, you throw a cat, the cat always lands. Charlie? This is what he means by Yeah, that's right. You know, that's right. You know, there's something missing. Yeah, that's good. I think, you know, eyes horizontal, nose vertical. You can just put it down to here. Take it down to here. And whichever way the wind blows, you're not hanging on to anything.

[51:16]

You don't have a fixed position. I read some commentary on that that said that, that he said, he said that I, you know, go to China and I come back and realize that my, you know, And of this I can have no doubt." And the commentary was that he had reached a place of no doubt that even if Shakyamuni Buddha or Bodhidharma were to come and try to talk him out of the realization, he had no doubt, there was no doubt about something. That could be, it just felt to me like reading that, that could be if a human being had the experience of no doubt about this one thing, even if it was where your nose is at. that would seem to be something fairly unique, to have that inner feeling of no doubt about something. Not completely unique, but... Maybe not unique, maybe that's not a good word, again, because we don't want to make it something special.

[52:22]

it seems like almost anything, well, I don't know, I get in trouble now, but it just seems like there is something expressed by reaching a place of no doubt. Yeah, that's right. Can I respond? Although it doesn't sound to me that the no doubt is based on not being doubtful about a certain thing, like your nose being in a certain place. It's not about, well, I'm so sure of this one thing, so that's realization. I mean, it feels more like there's no more doubt because there's no more effort to understand that conceptual way. So there's no more reason for doubt about anything. But it's not dependent on knowing any particular thing, even where the nose is on your face. You know, it seems like that's just a metaphor, like it's right in front of us. It's everything that's going on. It's my eyes being this way, my nose being this way. I think the point is, if it's everything that there is, then there's no room for doubt.

[53:33]

Doubt is only like, if you think things are a certain way, then you can be wrong, so you can have doubt about it. But if you're not trying to think of anything being in any certain way, then there's no doubt. That's what it seems like to me. I agree. So it's not a specific thing you have to have no doubt about. It's no doubt about everything. No, it's just no doubt, yeah. Because the next line he said, and I return without a speck of Buddhism. So it's sort of like, It's the first, as I understand, the first t-shirt that Dogen gave on his return to Japan after his dropping body and mind in China. It's in the... How to get back to Japan. How to get back? What did I say? How to get back after Dogen. You know, last, you know, just a period. It's in the Ehe Kiroku recordings of Dogen's teachings.

[54:39]

Okay, what's going on? So, then, he says, Thought is itself knowing, without dependence on another's power, Another way of saying that could be without dependence on the thinking process. Its knowing is its form, and its form is the mountains and rivers. These mountains and rivers are subtle, and this subtlety is marvelous or mysterious. When we put it to use, it is brisk and lively. When we make a dragon, it does not matter whether we are inside or outside of the new gate. To put this single knowing to the slightest use is to take up the mountains and rivers of the entire world and know them with all one's power. Without our intimate knowing of the mountains and rivers, we do not have a single knowing or half an understanding. We should not lament the late arrival of discriminatory thinking.

[55:46]

The Buddhas of previous discrimination have already been realized. Ever without here means previously. Previously means already realized. Therefore, ever without discrimination means you did not meet a single person on the bird's path." There's a lot of stuff in here. I'm going to read you the other Mishyama's translation. This subtle self-knowledge has no dualistic thought. Thought knowledge, in quotes, is not dependent on the various processes of thinking. This knowledge has form. That form is mountains and rivers. These mountains and rivers are subtle.

[56:49]

That subtleness is marvelous. Its function is extraordinarily vigorous, and its manifestation is totally unrestrained. Even if we reutilize just a small portion of this knowledge, the entire world and all its mountains and rivers are revealed, and we have the power to know everything. If we lack intimate knowledge of mountains, we cannot understand even half of one portion of this knowledge. Do not be concerned with the late appearance of intellectual understanding. The thought we already possess manifests the transmission of all the Buddhas. Not past is right here. Right here is actualized. Therefore, that is why no dualism is not meeting a single person. Well, mountains and rivers, you know, Dogen wrote this fascicle, The Mountains and Rivers, which is very famous, probably a lot of you have already read it.

[57:51]

But he talks about mountains and rivers, and mountains and rivers is a metaphor mountains, and there was a metaphor for practice realization. But he uses mountains, you know, and looking at mountain from various points of view and rivers from various points of view, but from the point of view of practice realization. It's too much to go into at this point. Sansuikyo is the name of the fascicle. I like the way he says it here, this subtle self-knowledge has no dualistic thought.

[58:56]

And thought, he says, thought itself is knowing. without dependence on another's power. And he says, not dependent on the processes of thinking. So I think you can take it either way. Anyway, this knowledge is inherently subtle, meaning that inherently means it's our own. And subtle means hard to see. And it is ever without discriminatory thought, and the reason we don't see it is because of discriminatory thought. And it's really hard to see beyond discriminated thinking. So, enlightenment experience is suddenly to see beyond discriminatory thinking. And when you sit zazen, if you sit zazen directly,

[60:05]

you go beyond discriminatory thinking. That's the point. Sitting Zazen is going beyond discriminatory thinking. Do you remember it? Do you remember it? You remember it if you remember it. Remember what? Going beyond discriminatory thinking. Yeah. You do it every day. When you sit in Zazen, you go beyond thinking, I like this or I don't like this. You go beyond thinking, this is good or this is bad. You go beyond thinking, this is right and this is wrong. Don't you? I think a lot of times going to the Zendo, that's true, I'm just going to Zazen.

[61:08]

But when I get there, the dualism, you know... Yeah, the dualism comes, right. That's right. So, even though you sit in Zazen, even though you sit in Zazen, you still have dualistic discrimination, right? You're still discriminating. Yeah. It was interesting when you said that. In fact, it was the first time I realized that. There's a lot of going on. It may be, it's a non-dualistic kind of like It's like a habit, it's sort of like it's a habitual thing that you do, this is part of your routine, you just get up and go to the zendo, and you're not really non-dualistic, you're just sort of following this routine that you've gotten into.

[62:10]

I have never in my life gone to the zendo out of habit. Ever. You were saying that in Zazen, if we're sitting in Zazen correctly, then this is what happens. If you sit Zazen correctly, you don't discriminate between pleasure and pain, right and wrong, good and bad. You don't discriminate. So from your last... You just accept everything that comes as it is. And you don't place one value ahead of another. And you don't say, this was good Zazen, this is bad Zazen. Things like that. So from your last class and this one, I know that I've, well I feel as though I've never sat a period of zazen.

[63:13]

Yes you have. Oh, okay. Because when you say correct, that also brings up incorrect. That's right. So you've sat a correct period of zazen in a non-dualistic way, not in a dualistic way. to say this is correct zazen as opposed to an incorrect zazen, that's dualistic. But your zazen is correct because you accept both correct and incorrect as zazen. So you don't get discouraged. I always get discouraged. Well, you may get discouraged, but you're still sitting Zazen. Oh, okay. I'll keep that in mind. See, we get discouraged by right and wrong. You're getting bad, you know? Charlie?

[64:23]

What do you mean by, um, you never go to the Zazen there out of habit? I never did. It's always a decision. Well, what's happened then? I don't know. What is heaven? What do you mean by heaven? Well, I guess heaven wasn't the right word exactly. I'm certainly not compelled to go. You're not. You're not compelled to go. There's a lot of... I mean, there's not a lot of... There's a lot of reasons why you go to Zen Dojo. I mean, a lot of it has to do with support. Everybody's doing it. You're getting a lot of support to do it. You want to support the rest of the community. You also get up because you know there's a tank in... You know, you get up for a lot of other reasons. You may be compulsive about doing things and having a good record. There's a lot of reasons you go there. So it's not all just... It's not just this sort of non-discriminative activity. A lot of it's very discriminative, but yet it feels non-discriminative because you go to the Zendo.

[65:26]

You just keep going. There's a lot of stuff working to get you there. Well, you do have a support system, fortunately, to help you do what you have decided to do. You always go to the Zendo because of your decision. It was not an unqualified decision, completely. Qualified or unqualified, I can't say, but you always go because of your decision. Right. And sometimes, even though you make the decision, you don't go. Right? And then somebody helps you to keep your decision. That's called the thinking. Right. You decided that you wanted to go, but you forgot. But let's say, for example, let's say that you can make Zazen completely optional. There's no Tenkin, nobody's looking at records, nobody's here to say whether you get up or not.

[66:32]

Zazen is completely optional. But now, wait a minute, if you make it optional the way I'm describing it, not the way you're thinking of it, then what? How are you describing it? I'm just describing there's no Tenkin, there's no wake-up bell, there's no requirement to be there. You can decide each morning whether you want to go to Zaza without all these other people. That's not true. It's not true, because you decided, when you came to Tassajara, you decided that you were going to get up every morning. That's your decision. These other little decisions are not your decision. That's your decision. These other little decisions, oh, this morning, God, ugh, you know. That's not up to your decision. You made your decision three months ago. I agree with what you're saying. So it's not, you know, it's not arbitrary. It's all your decision. But those conditions change too. Those are the conditions then and the conditions change.

[67:33]

And when conditions change, and when conditions change you have to try harder. Right. You know, supposing you're climbing up a mountain, you know, and you say, well I'm going to climb to the top of that mountain. And you start climbing down the mountain and it's a nice path, you know, and suddenly there's no path. What are you going to do? I probably would not keep walking. Well, and there's no way to get down. I mean... Yeah, supposing there is no way to get down, what would you do? Well, you find a way to get up, right? Because your life depends on it. You think there's a way to get down just because there's a path, but then you lose your life. You think that you have the opportunity to say yes or no to anything you decided. But you don't. When you make your decision, that's your life. And you can't continue living as long as you're going against what you said you were going to do.

[68:35]

Otherwise you feel dead. Even though you're alive, you feel dead. Keep it up. That's why practice takes your whole life. I don't like getting up in the morning. I'd much rather sleep. I can sleep. You think that I'm a compulsive getter-upper? Bullshit! I don't like getting up in the morning. What I was wondering, what my question was sort of about was that if this is true, it seems like everything we do is a decision then. That's right. And it seems like there's no such thing as a habit. No. It's just an illusion. There is compulsion. But compulsion is when you can't help yourself. You're driven by... Yeah, you're driven by something, you know.

[69:39]

And I don't think Zazen is a compulsion. Maybe it's impartial, but not with me. So maybe it happens just making the same decision over and over and over. No, it's a definite decision. I told myself, this is what I'm going to do. Whether I like it, or whether I don't like it, or whether it's good or bad. My decision is, no matter how I'm feeling, this is what I'm doing. And there's no turning back. You're talking about vows. Yeah. In this instance. And you're talking about shorter vows, like the one that some people have made that they'll do this for three months. Yeah. Commitment. And when you've made that vow... Self-commitment. ...then there's a deadness. If you don't keep your... And you're referring in yourself to a vow that is full length?

[70:44]

Full length. So, we're getting into some style decisions here, which are very much personal choice decisions. Well, it's just interesting, you're not generalizing in a sense. You can generalize about what You're telling us about your experience. Well, I'm telling you about what our practice is. Yeah, okay. And if we're not functioning in that way, then there may be something slightly off about the way that we're getting to this end out or the way that we're being here right now. Being here. You know, we all fail, you know, but we also pick ourselves up. You know, it's not like there's no room for variation or variance or failure. There's plenty of room for that.

[71:46]

But it depends on our commitment to our self. When we commit ourselves to something and we don't see it through, especially in this situation, then Our life is cut off because this is the thrust of our life. This is the main thing in our life when we make this kind of commitment. It reminds me of that story you reminded me about, about Seijo. Seijo? Seijo and her? Soul? The two Seijos? Yeah. Coming together. Yeah, you have to come together with yourself. The two sides of yourself have to come together. There's just something that's somewhat troubling about this to me.

[73:01]

I think from the way you seem to describe it, the way you seem to describe it seems to be like we're talking about something based on the past, that it could be perhaps misinterpreted as something like being attached to the past. For me, just in my own experience of vow, this sort of thing, no matter how you feel, continuing in this direction, it seems that there's an essential factor of, at every moment, being able to verify that vow. if at a point I didn't verify the vow at any one moment, it's, at least to me, it's totally irrelevant what decision I made three months ago, to me. I mean, in a certain sense, I don't really care, or I'd like to, I try to be at that point where I don't care at all about what vows I've made in the past, or anything I've done except for this moment that I'm speaking of right now. I mean, you know, I might have said something when I came here, you know, that that's my promise or something, but to me,

[74:07]

vow to me, that really has no bearing. That right now, I can't see right now that what I have to do is practice no matter how I feel, that it's irrelevant. And the fact that it can be endlessly verified is what makes it a vow to me. So, I think it's important to observe over the long term that you've made this vow here, and you've made this vow here, so you don't get caught up in, oh, I feel lousy, I don't want to wake up this morning. But I wouldn't At least for me, it doesn't feel right to put too much emphasis on the reason. It's because of some event that happened in the past. I disagree. I disagree. You can look in the deepest part of yourself and see that it's not there right now. There's something that sustains you through that. See what's right here? That vow. I can look for that vow and not find it. When I come out of Zen, I say, I don't want to save all beings. I can look in the deepest part of me and say, there's nothing about me that wants to be a Bodhisattva. Really? In the deepest part of you?

[75:09]

In the deepest part of me. And then in the next moment, I can be back into Zen mode, but I know that there's something that sustains me. There's something that keeps it going, and it is this intention that God sent in motion at some point in my life, that has its own meaning. That you feel separate from you somehow. Or, that's how it sounds to me. Yeah, I couldn't say that I feel separate from you, You know, I can look inside of me and not find it at times. And then there's a faith that knows that it doesn't mean that it's gone forever. So maybe that's what I'm talking about, finding it. Maybe it's that faith or something. At any moment, in any one moment, you can feel, even if you say you don't find it, you find something, right? That's maybe what I'm talking about. So maybe what it is for us, if we're speaking about different things. But in any one moment, you can look at yourself and know that you should be here, even if you don't have that feeling of wanting to stay. No, I can't even say that I feel I shouldn't be here.

[76:10]

But the referent, I think, for that moment, is that initial intention that exists. It's just like, you know, Buddha did this thing, and he created this way that exists for all time. And when I step into it, you know, that moment that I step into it, now it exists for all time, for me as well. You know, that's the enlightenment. It's not like a thing. Once the intention comes out of me from somewhere, from some way, however that happens, then immediately I'm on Buddha's way. But I don't feel it. There isn't a moment-by-moment sense that, yes, I'm affirming this vow, yes, I know that this vow is still the right thing, I'm constantly questioning, constantly wondering, whatever possessed me to think that I wanted to do this kind of practice. And it feels really deep when I have that question.

[77:12]

But even when I have that question, I know I'm going to come right back to it, somehow. Because that initial tension, that set of emotions in me. When Cassandra says intention, it grabs me because you say about finding at each moment And I really identify with not finding anything. I make the decision every morning not to go to Zazen. I lie there and I go, there's the wake up bell, there's the Han just started, okay. Three more hits till the first round's over. I'm sleeping in today, you know, tanking can come, I'm sick. As soon as I say that, I'm out of bed and brushing my teeth. What am I doing? You know, I'm supposed to, I said I'm laying in bed. And as soon as that happens, the covers come off and there I go and I go, I'm not finding anything, it's just happening. And it's really weird, every morning, or, you know, every once in a while. But it's just like, I'm sleeping in, I'm sleeping in, nobody's gonna come, I mean, somebody will come and knock on the door, I'll just say I'm sick, they can bring me breakfast, you know, whatever.

[78:15]

You know, breakfast in bed sounds good to me, boom, there's the covers and I'm out the door. It's just, ugh, why am I doing this? But anyway, so yeah, it's not finding anything, really, for me either. It's just, I know that intention is working, or something. I don't think we're using the same term for the same kind of thing, because to me that is finding something. Maybe instead of finding something, it's something is finding me, is kind of how I'm feeling about it. I'm not looking for anything and really all I want is to stay inside a sleeping bag, but something is coming and taking those covers off and brushing my teeth and putting my robe on. So I'm not sure how to describe the experience, but I guess the point that was important to me was that it's not... that there at least is a possibility that it's not dependent or it doesn't have to be dependent on anything in the past, on an action that you remember in the past and using that as a basis for something.

[79:17]

So you're saying a specific memory in the past? Yeah, any specific. But there couldn't be a reference in the past? Well, I don't quite know what that means, but... So, sure. I'm a little disturbed by something is finding you. It takes it too far away from a sense of self-responsibility. Sort of like some little thing is flying into your sleeping bag and grabbing you. My sense is that, you know, something in you is arguing with the other thing quite quietly. Well, that's... something is finding me and what it is, is something inside me. I mean, there's not some poltergeist ripping off my numbers. It's my arm. There it goes. Or it's the arm. Whose arm? Well... Hearing this, I think the Tenkins are going to start to use the intention.

[80:24]

The thing is, you know, when you have your commitment and your intention, then you have a touchstone. And because when you actually enter the situation, all kinds of things will make it difficult for you to continue. So, that's why, you know, if your intention and your commitment is strong and you honor it, then you always have something to return to, even when you have nothing else. That's why it's the most important thing you have. It's the bottom line. The most important thing, even if you have nothing else. That's the one thing that will get you through when nothing else will.

[81:29]

And sometimes just gritting your teeth and doing something. Some people say, well, you know, this Zazen thing is just an endurance contest. What's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with endurance. Endurance is very important. It seems to me that separate from Buddhism, you're presenting a The main thing is your effort, not your success.

[82:32]

Nobody's successful. Nobody's, you know, it looks like, oh, this person's really successful and they do everything real well, you know, and it's easy for them. And this guy's, you know, he's really struggling along and they can hardly make it, you know. But who's the best Zen student? The person has to feel the work. I don't know if this is really upsetting me personally. Is that upsetting you? What's upsetting you? Because for so many years, when I first started sick, I felt I had such a strong commitment, that I was there all the time, that the vow was there.

[83:43]

And then I stopped. It took so many years of trying to come back, of coming back for months at a time, or weeks at a time. And then when I came back, and I've been there, but no matter how many vows I make or how much I feel because I was gone for so long, I always feel like it can happen again. And I do feel it in a way, that he said is right, that somehow, that what brings me back just happens. It happens from within or it happens from without, but I can't define what's within or without without it.

[84:53]

And I'm just so glad that so many people do feel so secure in their vow or their commitment or intention? Well, practice is not just some narrow thing. And just being someplace is not Doing something for some period of time is not the only side of practice. All the time that you weren't there, it was still practice. It didn't depend on being here or there. The commitment was always there, always has been, even when you didn't know it. You know, we have lots of different things to do in our life.

[86:12]

And always doing the same thing is not the practice. When we do Tassajara practice, that's one form of practice. And when we commit ourselves to that, that's our commitment. And we do it wholeheartedly, whether it's difficult or easy. Then we do something else. And then we do something else. It doesn't mean that we stop practicing. Sometimes people think because when they stop practicing in Tassajara, they stop practicing Zen. Or if they leave Page Street, that they stop practicing Zen. That's crazy. You can't stop. Even though you think you stop. You can't stop. You can, you know, run away from Tassajar and go to Peru, you know.

[87:14]

But you can't stop practicing. I see people come and go all the time, you know. People, someone was there practicing in 1965, you know. And then 20 years later, they're back practicing at the Zendo. But they've been practicing all along, even when they weren't there. So that's like Bodhichitta, right? Once you arouse the thought, you can't squash it, even though what you're doing looks like something else. Of course. When did you start? When you came to Zen Center? This is a place where we've all come together because of our affinity.

[88:18]

Even though you say, God, you know, if I wasn't practicing I wouldn't be with these people. These are not the friends I would choose. These are not the friends I would choose to have. But for some reason we all have this affinity with, in some way. And we're all here doing this right now. And five years from now, we'll all be doing something else. Some of us will be together, and some of us won't. Well, on that basis, then you can say the whole world is practicing. Of course. The whole universe is practicing. Right? But this is different from intention and commitment. Those maybe aren't always happening. Well, it's some kind of intention and some kind of commitment to something. We'll get there. But when we're in this situation, this is what's happening.

[89:25]

And since it's not an easy thing to do, sometimes you say, oh, this is pretty easy to do, but it's not an easy thing to do. So it takes a strong commitment to do it. Some people, it's easier than others. In some other situation, it may not take such a strong commitment. You have more leeway to make your own decisions. But you've already made your decision. You can't say that I'm not making my own decisions, because this is your decision. Nobody forced you to do this. You agreed to do all the things that we're doing. That's all. And then they're hard to do. For various reasons, all the things that we committed ourselves to doing are hard to do. And then if we don't keep it that way, then you just kind of fall apart, you know, and then we start doing something else.

[90:49]

It'd be just like that, you know. If we all decided to do something else, the whole thing would just kind of be something else. So it's a narrow way of life here, and not easy to maintain unless we really completely give ourselves to it. So there's a slightest deviation, as Dogen says, it's like the distance between, quarter of an inch is difference, and it's like the distance between heaven and earth. And then you feel the pain. So to do this non-dualistic practice means to just do it. You know, beyond your thinking, beyond your feelings, You can have your feelings and you can have your thinking, but it's got the practice beyond it.

[91:56]

That's why we say, OK, and we just give ourself to it. And we don't know what we're jumping into, but you jump into it anyway. And it's beyond our thinking and beyond our feeling and beyond all this stuff. And when you just do it, it's there, what Dogen's talking about here. This illumination is there. The whole thing is just that then. Sitting or working or walking around or whatever.

[92:33]

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