Bodhisattva Ceremony

00:00
00:00
Audio loading...

Welcome! You can log in or create an account to save favorites, edit keywords, transcripts, and more.

Serial: 
BZ-02252
Description: 

3 Pure Precepts, Saturday Lecture

AI Summary: 

-

Transcript: 

Good morning. Good morning. So this morning, we had what we call our Bodhisattva. Is it on? Yes, sir. Can you tell us in the back if the sound is good? Is it distorted? It's not now, right? No. It's all good. Hallelujah. So this morning, we had what we call our Bodhisattva Ceremony. Bodhisattva Ceremony is basically the two aspects of practice. One is repentance, and the other is renewing our vow. So in the parts of the ceremony, repentance is the beginning,

[01:06]

and then paying homage to all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and then taking the four Bodhisattva vows, and then the refuges, and then the three pure precepts, and the ten clear-mind precepts. So this is the essence of this ceremony. This is an ancient ceremony in India. It was called Uposatha, and it was done twice monthly, once on the full moon and once on the new moon, I think. And it was a monk's ceremony, basically, and the monks would convene, and then if anybody had transgressed the precepts, they would say so, and then some kind of result would happen, whatever that was. So there are some severe penalties,

[02:11]

but I don't want to go into that. You know, when the Buddha was teaching in India, 2,500 years or so ago, the students, his disciples, just practiced with him. But then when the Buddha passed away, the monks convened a council, two councils actually, one after the other, where they tried to decide what was the true teaching of the Buddha, and how should we follow it. And so they created a lot of ceremonies, and sutras, and study articles, in order to maintain what they had felt was the practice, because the teacher was gone. So practice becomes more formal when the teacher is gone.

[03:16]

When we were practicing with Suzuki Roshi, my teacher, there wasn't so much. He didn't have any classes or anything like that. He just taught, and everybody just practiced. Later, there's more study and so forth. We didn't really study when he was there. The students started studying by themselves, and then they started teaching, and pretty soon there was a whole teaching contingent. But that's inevitable, and many teachers have emerged from that, from Suzuki Roshi's lineage. So I want to talk about repentance first, what this means. It says, All my ancient, twisted karma, from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, born through body, speech, and mind,

[04:21]

I now fully avow. There are two kinds of repentance. This particular kind of repentance is where we actually talk about something, like evil karma perpetuated by me. It's not that we say, I did something, and I repent for that. It's not talking about particular aspects of our behavior. It's talking about something much larger. So, all my ancient, twisted karma, ancient can mean anything you want it to mean. Someone might think it means from the beginning of time, which is not untrue. We are the extension of our Adam and Eve beginnings. Right on this moment, we are the extension of all the people who came before us.

[05:22]

And there's something about us, there's something about them that's in us. We're born with a certain... I don't say we're born with karma. We might be, but I don't think so. But we are born with characteristics. Karma means a volitional action. That's all it means. Strictly speaking, karma means a volitional action, something that you do, maybe on purpose and maybe not. It could be on purpose, consciously, or it could be on purpose, subconsciously. As a matter of fact, so much of our actions are subconscious, and we don't even realize it. And that's kind of what this is addressing, in a way. Not only our conscious activities, but our subconscious evil karma. Evil is one way of...

[06:26]

Original is evil. Evil karma. But we say... And then Zen Center said, twisted. And then I changed it to tangled. Because I think our entanglements is what it's about. It's about how we get caught by our feelings, emotions, and thoughts. So, all my ancient, whatever you want to say, karma. Tangled, twisted, evil. From beginningless, greed aided delusion. So, beginningless means, I don't know how far back, you know. But delusion is like the parent, and greed and ill will are like the children. So, greed and ill will are fostered by delusion. If we weren't living in delusion,

[07:28]

we wouldn't have these kinds of activities, which cause problems for everybody and ourselves. And then these greed, hate, and delusion, which are born through body, speech, and mind. How we act, how we speak, and how we think. All of these create karma. Either good or bad. But this is talking about bad karma. So, we say, I now fully avow. Means, okay, I'm not covering up anything that I know about. Although there's so much stuff that I don't know about, that I can't tell you about it. And this is probably most of our subconscious actions. How do we, this is about, how do we find our way through the world lightly,

[08:32]

without causing problems and harm? It's like a minefield. How do we navigate this minefield? This minefield is called, not leaving any trace. And then we say, how do you find your way without leaving any trace? So what it means by not leaving any trace, doesn't mean that nobody will remember you. It means that you're not, you know how to step between mines, so you don't blow things up. You don't create problems for yourself and others. So, there are two kinds of repentance. Two levels. One is the level of, how we create karma in the world, and then repent,

[09:37]

because we don't know. It's just realizing that we do create problems. And then there's repentance, which is called zazen. So, this is repentance of form. And zazen is formless repentance. In other words, in zazen, everything is falling off. Although feelings, thoughts, emotions arise, we don't take them up. I remember Suzuki Roshi, my teacher, used to say, all the precepts are kept when you sit zazen. And I thought, ha ha. Of course, you know, you can't do anything. Isn't that a no-brainer? But it's true. It's not that you can't do anything,

[10:42]

it's that you don't take anything up, because there's lots of stuff that you could take up. Everything rushes through your mind. Your emotions come up, but you just let them go. Feelings come up, you just let them go. Thoughts come up, you just let them go. So, you're totally free of everything. Simply breathing, painful legs, sitting on a cushion. It's called nirvana, because it's called liberation. Even though, before we have liberation, we just think it's torture. When you first begin to see, it's torture. But after a while, you see that it's really liberation. So, this is formal. Formal acknowledgement, formal vow.

[11:44]

And zazen is formless. Not informal, but formless. And then, there are the homages. So, homage here means extending our gratitude to everyone who came before us, who developed this practice. So, we have great gratitude for all the ancestors who handed down the Dharma through all these centuries. If it wasn't for Shakyamuni Buddha, we wouldn't be here today. So, we say homage to the seven Buddhas before Buddha. This is a tricky statement, because it seems to include Buddha as one of the seven. So, people say, seven Buddhas before Buddha. But how can that be? Because Buddha is the seventh one. Buddha is there too, so how can it be? But it's not referring...

[12:45]

It's tricky, I'm not going to explain that. There are explanations, but I can't remember what they are. So, the reason we say homage to the seven Buddhas before Buddha is because of Shakyamuni, when he went out to find his way after living in a palace as a youth. When he actually became enlightened, he said, I didn't invent this, I just found the old ancient way of all the Buddhas that came before me. So, in the history, in the history of Buddhist mythology,

[13:48]

I'll call it, there are not just seven Buddhas, but innumerable Buddhas before Shakyamuni. And Shakyamuni is just the icon for this particular age, 2,500 years. So, the next Buddha is called Maitreya. Maitreya means loving-kindness. The Buddha who will actually establish loving-kindness in the world. So, that's called Maitreya, or in the West, Messiah. Same thing, actually. And then there's Manjushri Bodhisattva, Bodhisattva of Wisdom, Samantabhadra, Bodhisattva of Shining Practice, Avalokiteshvara, Bodhisattva of Compassion, and all the ancestors from Shakyamuni,

[14:51]

and also to Shakyamuni Buddha. So, these are icons. But actually, they're aspects of ourselves. So, Shakyamuni Buddha, all of us that are practicing are called Shakyamuni Buddha. In the original meal chant, when we chanted the name of Shakyamuni Buddha, we used to say, all the Shakyamuni Buddhas, all the innumerable Shakyamuni Buddhas all over the world. So, yes, this man lived 2,500 years ago, but actually everyone that practices is Shakyamuni Buddha, practicing in exactly the same way. So, Maitreya Buddha, we think, well, he's in the Tushita Heaven, and some day, some Kalpa, he'll come down. But actually, we are Maitreya Buddha. In other words, salvation comes from yourself.

[15:53]

If you develop loving-kindness in yourself as your aspect of life, then you are Maitreya Buddha. You may not be perfect, but imperfection is called practice. Actually, imperfection is called enlightenment. And then we say, how much do you want Juhsri Bodhisattva, the Bodhisattva Prajna? Prajna is intuitive wisdom, which is not dependent on discursive thinking mind. So, when we use our intuition, when we trust our intuition and act out of our intuition, we want Juhsri Bodhisattva. When we practice sincerely, we are Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. And when we practice with compassion, we are Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva.

[16:56]

So, we shouldn't think necessarily of these great Bodhisattvas as being outside of ourself, although they are examples, great examples for our practice. But they are examples for us because they represent our own qualities. And help us to develop those qualities or bring out those qualities. Sometimes people offer incense to Samantabhadra, offer incense to Avalokiteshvara in order to activate those qualities in themselves, in ourselves. So, then we take the four Bodhisattva vows. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it.

[17:57]

So, the Bodhisattva vows are translated in various ways. This happens to be our translation. So, the first line, Bodhisattvas are numberless. I vow to save them. I wrote this. Why? How come? So, what are we going to save people? What are we going to save numberless beings from? Well, from delusion and suffering. Buddha said, Shakyamuni said, my teaching is just all about how we alleviate delusion and suffering. That's what it's about. So, suffering and confusion. But these four vows are

[18:59]

in response to Buddha's Four Noble Truths. Very basic vows are simply a response to the basic Four Noble Truths. Beings are subject to suffering, dis-ease, unsatisfactoriness, and something that's always a problem. Big problem. There's always a big problem. If you don't have a big problem, you're deluded. So, beings are numberless. I vow to save them from suffering and delusion. That responds to the First Noble Truth. And delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them as a response to the second one. The second truth is

[20:01]

there is a way, a way to deal with all this. Buddha is considered the physician, and the physician has a cure. So, the analysis is the first two truths. You're suffering, oh yeah? Well, I've got something for you. That's the first two truths. You're suffering, you're confused, well, listen to this. And then the third truth is the Dharma Gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Dharma Gates are like ways to practice. How you enter into salvation. What is salvation? It's saving yourself from your own delusions. Saving us from our own delusions

[21:02]

and our own confusions. So, the Dharma Gates, we say the Mumon. Mumon is the Dharma Gate, the empty gate. We can say Dharma Gates may be studying the sutras or something like that, but actually, for us, the Dharma Gates are our daily activity. Every moment's activity, whatever we meet, is a Dharma Gate, a way to practice. We say, well, I come to the Zen Do, and I can see that there's the tans here, and the cushions, and the floor is nice, and bare, and the altar, and so forth, and that's practice. But actually, that is practice. It's only one side of practice. The other side of practice is the moment you leave the door,

[22:03]

what do you do? The moment you go outside, how do you practice? Well, whatever you meet is a Dharma Gate. Whatever we meet is a Dharma Gate. Whoever you meet is a Dharma Gate to enlightenment. So how will you act? How will you respond to your environment? How will you respond to the people that you're talking to, the people that you're interacting with, in your work, wherever you are? How do you do that? So Dharma Gates are everywhere. There's no place where there's no Dharma Gate, where there's no Dharma Gate. It's just open. So the vow is to enter them, to practice in this way. To see whatever is in front of you

[23:06]

as what it really is, not just what you think it is. To be open enough to address whatever is in front of you as it really is. That's the hardest part. That's why practice is difficult. Not so much because of the pain in your legs. That's easy. What's really difficult is how do you see everything you meet as it really is. So we say delusions. Delusions are... Delusion is kind of a funny translation. The Chinese say afflictions. And afflictions are kind of like the stuff that bothers us. The stuff that's a stumbling block. The stuff that stops us or confuses us or hurts. So you could easily say afflictions are inexhaustible. They are. I'm going to end there

[24:09]

because it's hard to end delusions. I'm not sure that we want to end delusions. We don't try to end delusions. Because delusion bears the seed of enlightenment. And if we throw out delusions we don't have the seed anything to practice with. So Buddha's way is unsurpassable. Buddha. You should try and prove it. You should try and see where it's not really true. You should chop it into little pieces and see if it's still alive. That's good. Even though you can't practice without great faith. But

[25:10]

when you really see what it is then great faith will come forth because you've proven it to yourself. So you shouldn't take somebody else's word for it. Even though we have to do that. When we begin to practice we take it on faith. Okay, I'll do this. But it's okay to have doubt. Doubt is the I like to think of it like an airplane faces the engine and the wings and really makes everything go. But doubt is the tail that says wait a minute you know without me you can't steer correctly. So doubt is very important because it balances your energy which faith just wants to go wherever it wants to go. But doubt, not doubt exactly but circumspection

[26:10]

circumspection says be careful you know be careful. So when we say Buddha's way is unsurpassable I vow to become it. Usually it's a I vow to attain it. But we didn't like to use the word attain because it smacks of gaining mind. But in the Heart Sutra it says attain. But it's a non-attainment. It's an attainment of non-attainment. So okay I say attain but we say become it and that sounds funny too. But it really means be one with it. It's not something outside of you. Immersed in it. We say immersing body and mind deeply in the way. That's what it means. So then we come to the refuges. So we've done our repentance

[27:13]

we've paid homage to all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and then we've taken the four vows and then we recite the refuges. The three refuges are called the three jewels. Buddha Dharma and Sangha. These are the three legs of the stool of practice. Or the three legs of the pot of practice. The cauldron of practice. The cauldron of practice is this big pot and the fire of Dharma is underneath cooking and all the sages are thrown into it. And they they cook in this soup of Dharma. So the three refuges the three legs of the pot I take refuge in Buddha

[28:13]

I take refuge in Dharma I take refuge in Sangha. There are three aspects three kinds of refuges. Refuge actually means you know, sounds like some safe place. If you're in the ocean and you get washed up on a desert island that's a refuge. But there's a New Yorker cartoon I don't know if you saw this people are sitting up on the desert island this little palm tree and there's a pay toilet. I won't go into that. No, we can't go in unless we pay. there's something called the one body one body three treasures

[29:13]

one body three treasures is that Buddha, Dharma, Sangha are just one three aspects of one thing. We say what does it mean? What is the meaning of three treasures? It means just be Buddha. In other words be yourself. Don't say that to everybody. Be your true self. That's what it's about. It's about being your true self. We say before all beings immersing body and mind in the way awakening true mind. So immersing body and mind in the way is like I'm going to say I've got to become it. Immersing body in other words as Dogen says throw your body throw yourself into the throw yourself into the house of Buddha and don't look back.

[30:16]

So what it means is returning to your true self. So refuge means to return to come back to yourself to come back to your true self. When we're born when we're baby when we're growing up we don't stray from our true self. But when we after we start protecting ourselves in the world we lose our self easily. And we don't we lose our connection with everything. And then we make these connections which are abstract and from reality. And then we look for our self again. And that's called practice. We find it in practice. So that's returning to our self. So that

[31:19]

one body three treasures is Buddha, Dharma, Sangha as one body. We are one body. So to take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha is to take refuge in our self. Then there's the manifest three treasures. Manifest three treasures is like the historical Buddha the sutras study learning about Buddhism. That's the manifest three treasures. And then there's the maintaining three treasures. Maintaining three treasures is like taking care of your practice place taking care of making everything work. Fundraising creating a space

[32:21]

for practice. So to take refuge in Dharma we say before all beings before all beings means that you stand up and you don't hide from the world. You're sending out a voice into the universe. Before all beings enter it's a being but it could be beings. Entering deeply the merciful ocean of Buddha's way. So this is Dharma which is called practice. Taking refuge in Dharma is like taking refuge in the practice. Taking refuge in Zazen and entering the Dharma gates. And to take refuge in Sangha before all beings bringing harmony to everyone

[33:21]

free from hindrance. This is harmonious activity which is actually the result of the other two. Without Sangha practice doesn't work. You may think it works. People come and have Zazen instruction and learn something about sitting down and putting your legs together and then go away thinking that they've got something. They do. But it's not practice. Practice is done with somebody else. We say only a Buddha Dogen says only a Buddha and a Buddha. In other words you can't if you do it by yourself this is called in history called Pachinko Buddha one who just practices by themselves and doesn't have any benefit for the world. But

[34:22]

in the vow we say saving all beings. So that may seem impossible but it doesn't mean that you're going to go out and meet everybody in the world. You just take care of what's around you. When you take care of what you can take care of that's saving all beings. Just take care of what you can take care of. So Sangha is actually I don't want to say the most important. It depends on what you're looking at. Right now I'll say it's the most important because I'm shining the light on it because of its importance. They're all important. They're all the most important thing. But the most important thing of all the most important things is Sangha because Sangha creates space for everyone to practice and Sangha creates the space for

[35:23]

spreading your spreading the Dharma in the world without trying to proselytize. Without trying to get people to do something you simply act out your virtuous activity and that influences people. If we don't practice together there's no sign Buddhism Buddhism would just fade away. So unselfish practice meaning you will help other people to practice before you attain something for yourself. It's not about what you do for yourself although it's not not about what you do for yourself. When you help others that's called enlightened activity you know

[36:31]

but if you say this is enlightened activity that's delusion. You just do without expecting anything. We sit Zazen for the sake of Zazen but at the same time we join together to do that and that supports we support each other's practice. The main thing is how we support each other's practice. Actually that's the main point. So then we take the three pure precepts. The pure precepts are translated in various ways. Here we say I vow to refrain from evil and I vow to do what is good. So that's the kind of duality between good and evil

[37:32]

but it's okay. We want to avoid evil. Dogen we include Dogen's comments on each one of these precepts but I won't go into that because it's too much. So to refrain from all evil karma basically to stop creating evil karma if you can and to vow to do what is good Dogen says it is the teaching of Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi it is the path and that's the practice. Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi is what we say complete perfect enlightenment. He used to say Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi before we translated it so it's very familiar to me but it's not so familiar to other people. Complete perfect enlightenment. So

[38:33]

to refrain from evil and to do what is good are kind of like opposites. And then the third one is I vow to live and be lived for the benefit of all beings. So to live for or to work for and to be lived it means that we merge. We can't just do something by ourselves. We do something something emerges when we merge. When we merge with others something emerges which is beyond good and bad or good and evil. And you can also say Dogen says it is transcending profane and holy taking self and others across. Transcending profane and holy can also mean you can say delusion and enlightenment.

[39:36]

Profane is delusion holy is enlightenment. So it's going beyond good and bad merging with all beings. That's called transcendence. Transcendence doesn't mean goodbye. It means going into becoming one with. It's like how do you transcend the pain in your legs when you sit Zazen? As an example well you become one with it. If you try to escape it it always wins. It will always win if you try to escape or if you fight. The only way to be free of it is to go directly into it and be one with it. Then there are no opposites. The only reason you have suffering

[40:38]

is because you create an opposite and then the more you create an opposite the more you suffer. So transcendence is don't create an opposite an opposition. Just be one with it. And then there are the ten grave precepts called grave I vow not to kill I vow not to take what is not given don't steal don't take something I vow not to misuse sexuality I vow to attain refrain from false speech I vow not to sell the wine of division I vow not to slander I vow not to praise self at the expense of others I vow not to be avaricious collect things I vow not to harbor ill will It doesn't say don't get angry

[41:40]

It says harbor ill will In other words to let it dominate you To cultivate ill will Harboring something means you have a safe place for it So I just wanted to say a little bit about some of these You know each one of these is a koan In the Rinzai school the ten precepts are dealt as koans in the end of their koan system So they're If we have to see these precepts on three different levels One level is the literal level I vow not to kill Well OK That's good Vow not to kill what? Vow not to kill people?

[42:42]

Vow not to kill animals? Vow not to kill vegetables? Vow not to kill fleas? Ants? Flies? You know within our body we have billions and billions of little animals that are constantly cleaning us up And then you go like this And what do you think happens to them? They all run into your nose So everything is eating everything else You have to realize that everything is eating and being eaten If you don't eat today you'll be real hungry tomorrow You can't stand it so you'll eat anything if it comes to it But we decide what we're going to eat But everything that is that is born

[43:44]

is food for something food for something So that's how the world survives So in another sense life itself cannot be killed The forms change There's transformation Constant transformations and the forms are continually changing Like this form will change that form will change this form will change not will change is changing and will change So this is how can you kill anything? Really So the third that's the second the second understanding of precept The third understanding is you know that you can't kill anything Nothing can be killed

[44:46]

Life itself cannot be killed On the other hand don't take life Don't willfully take life because everything that's born wants to live And then in the middle is the bodhisattva precept which is given that I understand both of these aspects What will I do? What will I do? That's called living precept Satyugi Roshi says if you only follow the precepts by rote that's called he uses a strict word heresy that's a little too strict But it's a mistake to only practice by rote the precepts You have to understand how because life is organic it's not it doesn't fit the grid of don't do this

[45:47]

don't do that So we have to realize through wisdom how to interact with life in a way that uses the precepts as guidelines but they we have to be able to understand how to or have the freedom to interact in a way that fits the situation If I always use this analogy if your cousin is escaping or somebody is escaping from the Nazis and you're hiding them in your basement and they knock on the door someone's over here

[46:50]

you say no well are you following the precepts or not because the precepts they don't lie I cannot tell a lie yes he's down there in the basement so you can't follow the precepts according to Rote you have to follow them as guidelines not as George Washington and the cherry tree no that's good too so sometimes we have to follow them by Rote sometimes we have to follow them by not following them so how you the living precept is just how you act in the world with compassion if you act with true compassion in the world and really understand what that means then you'll be following the precepts because the precepts

[47:51]

are all based on compassion so that's called being Buddha following Dharma and acting out of the Sangha I don't think I have time for questions it's ten after eleven do you have any questions? even if you can't if you can't be in the Zen Do can you still do Zazen for the Sangha? is that a good practice? the question was if you

[48:51]

if there's some situation where you can't sit Zazen with the Sangha and you sit by yourself is that practice? well yeah because you know this is the case of true precepts what will I do? now I should be sitting in the Zen Do Zazen right? but I can't so you can't follow the precept precept meaning your decisions your vow vow doesn't necessarily mean we use this word like this is my intention to do that my promise so yes you can't do that so you sit by yourself that's ok but if you only sit by yourself that's different yeah sure so people often say

[49:52]

well is it ok if I sit at home? of course you know I can't tell you when to sit and when not to sit right? it's not up to me to tell you that but our practice don't neglect our practice together you can sit anywhere anytime that's good but we should know why we're doing it we should know why we're doing Zazen you know if we only do it for our own self-satisfaction that's it easily turns into ego practice does anybody have another question? Paul you're when you're talking about repentance you said that what we chant is the formal vowel then you said there's an informal vowel or a formless formless yeah and you didn't say what that means Zazen oh ok yeah Zazen is not informal

[50:53]

but formless formless yeah way back there in the back oh yes my name I wanted to ask you about this notion of salvation yeah is there another word for that? oh probably if you can come up with another word fine saving you from yourself from ourselves? yes saving you from yourself by eliminating yourself by not being attached to yourself basically salvation is finding true freedom by not being attached to self so salvation and freedom go hand in hand what? salvation and freedom go hand in hand salvation and freedom go hand in hand oh yeah that's right freedom that means

[51:54]

yeah freedom I'm sure there are lots of synonyms actually liberation liberation is another synonym yeah liberation being liberated from yourself from your ego so that you find your true self everywhere that's the point of course go ahead sometimes you know to talk about translations it seems a little bit academic but really if we talk about translations we can get into the harder things sometimes oh yeah and the question that we just heard racism a problem that was unspoken which is that if we use translations that are associated heavily associated with Christianity or Judaism it kind of causes a problem so

[52:54]

salvation did you say that Maitreya and Messiah were the same well I didn't mean that they're you know the same people but did you say the idea is the same because you could see me it's a similar it's a similar idea in that there's in that there's some of them will come that will save everybody that's in that sense they're the same yeah I wanted to say that it's like salvation and like sin and evil Messiah is really laden and I would not want to say that I would not want to say that Maitreya means Messiah I would say that it doesn't yeah okay you can always argue analogies only go so far I just want to say something analogies only go so far and they're always incomplete so just take it for what I meant it to be not what it could be thank you what could it be

[53:58]

yes another way another way to see these sort of parallel things in all these different traditions is that when you the notion of Messiah is laden with all of this stuff but you and understanding Maitreya concept can also be seen not as identified as throwing fresh light on what Messiah what light really means as opposed to how it has come to mean I would rather see the same as rather than the difference so you can make arguments and see all kinds of differences and this is not that and so forth yeah I just meant it on a certain level in that someone thought about salvation there's someone that's going to come down that's all that's as far as it goes

[55:00]

what they're going to do and I don't want to have too many parallels but there are parallels and this is the last question I must be yeah Kate well I was just thinking about the fact that there are Christian teachers who say that in fact we are the only hands of Christ so that's much more like what you're talking about yeah but basically there are these icons right and then there is the icons are simply representatives of our self if we expect some being to come down you know I don't think we should wait don't wait that's it

[56:02]

I am ready you asked to

[56:06]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ