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Zen Therapy: Emotional Paths Converged
Seminar_Zen_and_Psychotherapy
The talk explores the intersection of Zen practice and Western psychotherapy, examining how emotional processes and identification shape practice, notably differentiating between cultural identification and Zen de-identification. There is a focus on the duality of emotional engagement in Zen, juxtaposing transformative practice with Zen notions of non-interference. The discussion extends into gender-based insights on practice and the implications of integrating Zen's inner-focused methods with Western therapeutic approaches, emphasizing openness to diverse emotional experiences within Zen practice.
- Referenced Works and Concepts:
- Dharma Wheel: Mentioned as a forum for senior practitioners to discuss Zen practice, highlighting its role in deepening comprehension of Zen principles.
- Bodhisattva and Buddha Practice: Contrasted to elucidate the balance between engaging with the world ('bodhisattva practice') versus the introspective focus of 'Buddha practice.'
- Dogen's Teachings: Invoked in relation to historical perspectives on monastic versus lay practice in Zen, illustrating the selective nature of intense training.
- Suzuki Roshi's Insights: Referenced regarding the realization of practice and societal benefits derived from deep realization by a few individuals, underscoring the community's impact on Zen practice sustainability.
-
Zen Practice Frameworks: Highlighted aspects such as stages of practice, substitution of feeling for thinking, and balancing equanimity, as key components.
-
Speakers and Influences:
- Nicole: Central to prompting discussions on the integration of emotional awareness in Zen.
- Ulrike: Contributes through examples of intense practice experiences and the emotional gaps encountered.
- Christine: Discusses the nature of wounds and vulnerability within practice and their connectivity to personal and collective history.
This deep dive into the interplay of Zen and psychotherapy provides nuanced insight into how emotional and cultural landscapes shape Zen practice, providing a richer understanding for integration into therapeutic settings.
AI Suggested Title: Zen Therapy: Emotional Paths Converged
Well, as almost all of you know, we had a conversation, started a conversation before lunch. And it was initiated by lots of things over the last couple of days, but specifically by what Nicole said for several minutes. And as I said, and more specifically now, although I agree with everything she said, and I, yeah, okay.
[01:07]
Her experience is that it's not necessarily in agreement with what I said or feel or do, right? Okay. So now we have a familiar problem. How, since there surely is a difference Why in the words do I feel they're the same? Yeah.
[02:09]
So what I would like to do is somehow, since this does seem to be pertinent to our conversation over these many years, in fact... So it would help me if we could create together a threshold, which I could at least see the threshold, and then I wonder if I can go across it. Yeah, so I would appreciate it if several others of you would say in your own words what she said. but not repeating what she said necessarily, but just telling me what you feel. Because many of you, at least some of you, clearly felt she had a point. Weil einige oder viele von euch eindeutig das Gefühl hatten, dass sie dann den Punkt angesprochen hat.
[03:31]
And I would like to get the point too. Und ich möchte den Punkt auch gerne verstehen. Okay, so now I'm listening. Jetzt höre ich zu. Yes? Yes? Yeah, so in the meeting before, I had an impulse to also join... This meeting you just had? No, before the lunch break. Oh, it's a seminar. Yeah. Yes, that was Nicole. And I also remember many different moments where I was also in Hadam. Because I listened to first Ulrike and then Nicole, and there were moments where I also was, I don't know, mulling over or sort of struggling with the teaching in contrast to what I feel.
[04:44]
Yes. And it arises in the moments of when I'm going into interior viewing, looking at the insides in which oftentimes feelings play a significant role. And then a question for me comes up, which is, when can I just see things for what they are, as they are? And when is there an impulse to act? Okay.
[05:52]
Yes, Mike. I'll try it out. Go deeper. In my Zen training, I was usually, I was usually asked at the very points that, Nicole, that I said, to go deeper, to look more deeply. With capital Roshi. Yes, yeah, yeah. Which, of course, is, I mean, it's natürlich auch wichtig. And, of course, that's a good point. That's the truth. But what I had to do is I needed to first for myself clarify the realm where these things came up. In order to locate myself, I used to call this the horizontal layer.
[07:13]
And only when that was cleared up, then I felt I could go into the vertical dimension. So you're making an equation or something between my saying to her, you ought to be able to, or implying, you ought to be able to put it aside, and capital Roshi saying to you, go deeper. Yeah, I understand. Okay, good. That's interesting. And in addition to that, I felt that Zen practitioners who also went very deeply, that certain areas in their lives or something, that certain areas just weren't clarified.
[08:43]
In life and in their practice. We're all human beings. This is not criticism. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Mir war es aber auch gar nicht möglich, das nicht zu machen. But for me, it was impossible to not do that. Ich hatte dann immer das Gefühl, etwas zu überspringen, was wirklich ist für die Erweiterung. And I would have the feeling that I would skip something that's essential in order to develop further or in order to widen. Of course, there's some skipping, but... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. And you feel something like that, parallel to what she said? She said a lot, and there were some things where I felt that's exactly what I mean, and then there were some things where it was in addition to something I said.
[09:47]
Okay, all right. Yes. For myself, I distinguish two different processes. One is the process that comes from our culture and from our development as an individual through our culture. And that process has to do with identification. And the other process which in my experience comes from Zen practice but has also started earlier is the process of de-identification And I would like to keep them apart.
[11:10]
habe eine ganz lange Geschichte der Identifikation hinter mir und diese Geschichte geht einfach immer weiter. I have a long history of identification and this identification just keeps continuing. Und ich glaube, dass auf dieser Ebene der Identifikation viele Dinge einfach And I feel like many issues can be dealt with in the realm of identification in a more probable maybe or concrete way. And can also be dealt with in a more physicalized way, more bodily. Okay. And as a learning process, I would never want to avoid or have to miss that process.
[12:28]
And the other process as a view into an unlimited field of not knowing, I would also not want to miss. Well, I would say that we've been for two decades, more than two decades, looking at the relationship without even knowing what we were doing, I think, much of the time, looking at the relationship between yogic practice and Western psychotherapeutic practice in particular constellations. And by the way, today and yesterday we've been talking more specifically about other yogic tools which we can bring into practice. yogic views and tools which we can bring into Western therapeutic practice.
[14:06]
Yeah, but at the same... And now it seems to me that Jewel, in the midst of this right now that we're looking at, is... Does Zen practice itself, which we're thinking about how to... Yoga practice and Zen practice itself, which we're looking at how to bring into our own lives as well as our profession... How does Zen, maybe Zen, now we should look at maybe Zen practice itself before we try to bring Zen practice into our lives and profession. Let's look at the limitations within Zen practice. And perhaps also implicitly there's a, or explicitly, I don't know, you have to tell me, there's a feeling that there's a somewhat different approach women would have, thinking with their bodies and their activity, would have a different approach or way of entering Zen practice than a male with his male bodily way of thinking and imagining the world.
[16:06]
And it also seems to be that somehow implicitly it also fluctuates here, that maybe the female approach, how women think about their feelings and their bodies, that there might also be a difference to the way the male or men think through their bodies. And I think if we can even approach this and lay some initial groundwork for looking at this, and in our decades of knowing each other, would be wonderful. For me, and I hope for others too.
[17:07]
Now, of course, what I just presented as a sort of topography of the situation, maybe that's again just more or less a restrictive view, but you were going to say something. Maybe what I'm describing now as topography, as landscape, is just a limited view. Yes, and you wanted to say something. Yes, similar to you. So I don't want to have to decide between something that moves me strongly, you talked about feelings, to take it into the well-wishing being, to stop it for later. or if it fits well and if I now have the opportunity to deal with it in the sense of how you sent it. So are these feelings that move me produced by my thoughts, i.e. self-produced suffering, or is it something
[18:10]
Can I possibly introduce it to a transformation or is it something that arises in the interaction with the world and which is now an important information for me? So I would like to keep both possibilities. So I would like to keep both options, which are dealing with emotions in the way that you, I think, me described, and also putting them on the shelf and leaving them for later or something. But if the situation allows to put them into a transformative process in which I can look at what aspects are created from biographical aspects maybe that I would want to transform and which aspects are part of the present situation. But I would want to keep both options. I would like to add something to this field.
[19:26]
Why this holding is so important for me? because when I would like to use this image that Christine brought in the very beginning, when densities in my field become palpable, I can start feeling them. Then there is a very then in me there is a profound commitment to just leave them be. to leave myself thoroughly alone. And that's for me also the most profound Zazen introduction that I use, which is to leave myself thoroughly alone.
[20:38]
And just generally I find that very important because otherwise I am chasing the devil with the devil. That's an idiom like that too. It's impossible for me to make a transformation happen because then I would just be approaching it with a very state mindset that causes it. from the inside out and I think something very personal comes in there. It's like an inner box, it's a kind of a tree. So I don't put the baby in my belly either, it does itself, that's a miracle.
[21:47]
And I have to do it for a few conditions. So that's why just holding it plays such an important role, and that's a kind of incubatory space. And I think there's actually a rather female element in that, our quality, which is like the baby in the womb just grows. I don't need to make it grow or anything. I'm just holding it. When we examine our awareness, at some point, there is this uncorrected state of mind, which I do not intervene at all, and on the other hand, the awareness is called, and I only hear what is happening, and on the other hand, there is also the possibility to distract my awareness. There is a determination, there is a decision. And in Zen practice, where one of the instructions is a non-interfering mind, here I can make a decision, which is that on the one hand I can just leave things as they are without interfering, and on the other hand I can of course also direct my attention and work with things.
[23:13]
So there's a point where I can make a decision. So only when I can continuously return back to the field of attention, only then do I even have the possibility to put it onto a shelf. And now the exciting point for me, what does my decision make me? So where do I really, yes, what is the criterion, what makes me decide whether it is now, for example, the greater challenge to really step into a pain because I tend to deviate from it and what is inconvenient for me, or whether it is the greater challenge for me And so then for me, the question arises, how do I make this decision?
[24:21]
What is the criterion that lets me decide, is this a feeling that now I want to enter more deeply? Or am I just going to notice it as an appearance among many other appearances? Okay. Yeah, I think it's good if you make comments along the way. Yeah. So I get some clarification here. Okay, good. Okay. And I would like to, so everything that is said, I think, is of course part of this field. I would like to make a few limitations first, what I did not mean. So, everything that's been said, of course, is a good part of folding in and the field we're creating, but I would like to draw a couple boundaries for what is not what I meant.
[25:29]
The difference between a therapeutic approach, where I process a feeling, and a Zen approach, where I either go deeper or transcend it. It's about differences in the question of how I practice Zen. Yeah? Das ist mal das Erste. So the distinction I'm trying to make is not in which one is a therapeutic approach about dealing with emotions and the other being a Zen approach in which we transcend emotions, but both... Nobody transcends emotions. Or going deeper or anything like... Detached. Detached from emotions. But not separate from them. But not, yeah, either way. So I'm not making one is therapy and the other one is Zen.
[26:31]
The distinction I'm pointing to is both in the territory for me. The question is, how do I practice Zen transformatively? That is the question. Okay. And this is the first. The second is, so maybe again in German, the question I ask myself is both in the area of Zen practice. And the question is, how do I practice Zen transformatively? And also, where I don't make the distinction, is whether I look at it now or later. And that's a bit of a misunderstanding, because in this case, the sentence I had in my hand was the one with the shelf. Das ist aber gar nicht der springende Punkt für mich. And also the distinction I'm not making is whether I look at it now or later. That came in, I think, because the sentence I had close at hand and working with was the one to put it on a shelf.
[27:33]
But it's not about looking at it now or later. I understand there are many situations when it's better to just put it aside for a moment, continue acting in a reasonable way, and then at some point looking at it or not looking at it. Also, I understand that there are situations where you don't go directly into it, but that you first put it aside, act reasonably, and then maybe look at it again and maybe not. Darum geht es nicht. Dann kommen wir mal hin, worum geht es mir? Und da zurück zu seiner Frage, was ist der threshold? Was ist die Schwelle? So then, the only last point I want to make at this point is, what is for me the distinction? What is the threshold, as you initially asked? Für mich ist das... And I think it's really beautiful how he introduced that. For me, he's actually not in the words. For me, he's something that I feel. And I really liked how you entered and approached the session.
[28:37]
For me, the difference is not in the words. Not so much, sometimes. But it's more in something that I feel. Und dieser gefühlte Unterschied ist da, dass es Momente gibt, wo tatsächlich mein Erleben geprägt ist von einem starken Gefühl, And where I then get the feeling that in general, somehow in the Zen culture, in the Zen atmosphere, and then sometimes also in contact with him, that can't be taken seriously now. And that is not respected now, or something like that. That has to go now somehow. That is the feeling. But we are speaking about this in the field of psychotherapy. We're not just talking about your transformative Zen practice.
[29:38]
That's something. So it ought to be somehow in the field of psychotherapy. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm sorry, what? Do you want to hear the last? Of course I want to hear everything. That's why I have two ears. I'm just trying to point to the threshold that I'm seeing. And the one that I'm seeing is that there are situations when my present experience is shaped by feelings Feelings. Feeling is part of the response to a situation. And then in the overall Zen culture, sometimes in relationship with you, but just in the overall Zen culture, then the sense I'm getting, whether it's said or not, the sense I'm getting is that at this point, the feeling somehow is not to be taken so seriously.
[30:47]
I mean, the emotional feeling is not to be taken seriously and somehow shouldn't be there. Now in some ways this topic started two weeks ago or so with the Dharma wheel from you and your feeling in the Dharma wheel. Suddenly you brought it up again here in another way and Ulrike brought it up. So what do you have to say? The Dharma Wheel is a meeting we have, and we happen to have it simultaneously with the Siegfried, in which some of the most senior practitioners meet and discuss practice. All I can do is speak about my solution to the riddle of Zen practice. Because I've been wondering of what this is about and have seen many hindrances that of course I've brought up for myself.
[32:24]
And the solution I found is radical openness. And that to me means that to not make a distinction between any element of experience that appears in me. And I turn towards what needs attention in me. That feels good and for me that is the source of openness. And it sometimes leads to that I can't be patient because something is calling so loudly on me. But maybe I learn that. And I also feel the openness as a kind of injury, a wound, like a wound, and that can, in a subtle way, tilt from...
[33:39]
And quickly and in a fine way. And so I've been wondering, what is this vulnerability? And we say, I mean, women are known to be vulnerable or easy to be touched by things. And now I'm feeling that this vulnerability is only a subtle swinging or something, shift, a subtle shift of openness. And to welcome any appearance is, for me, the most wonderful Zazen experience, which is not limited to Zazen.
[35:04]
But that also requires that I'm not afraid of the wound. But we are wounded. Austrian culture is wounded, and I am part of it. And I allow for myself to feel that because I think it's important to do that. And I really wish that we can take this into our practice. And what is very painful for me is when I get the feeling that, as practitioners, we are somehow covering up the wound. through practice, by shifting into a different realm where I don't feel it anymore.
[36:38]
But I don't want to bathe in the wound. So for that reason, it's good that this is more like a subtle moment and one doesn't have to bathe in it. In practice, of course, we can always go to a somatic state where any feeling is empty. not really the pitfall of emptiness. And there's a danger to just skip it somehow and not, as you said, to just be present with it.
[37:51]
Because then you don't feel it. But it's not resolved. Yeah. Well, let me say that I think we need to not go to lunch, but let me say that I think we're doing bodhisattva practice in Zen. You can do Buddha practice, which is different than Zen practice. And Buddha practices, you always maintain yourself in something close to a state of samadhi.
[38:53]
And this is possible to do crudely and very nice. But you do have to have a lot of help. Somebody has to feed you, take care of the temple, because you just are not there to do anything except feel great all the time. So bodhisattva practice is to live in the weeds. Now, how this all relates to psychotherapy, I don't know yet. But anyway, Ruki, do you want to add anything to the discussion? Ulrike, would you like to add something to the conversation?
[39:56]
First of all, I think my main feeling in relation to appreciation, this feeling of appreciation, English of But I have a similar sense or experience in relationship to what the values are maybe, the values assessment or something similar to what Nicole said. You have sometimes mentioned or just mentioned that mental and emotional suffering in the first years of the practice is very serious, or in the first years it ends.
[41:21]
You sometimes said things that emotional suffering is somehow dealt with in the first years of practice and is then ended. . Yes, that I could say that now. But my feeling is that when I am in the sand, in the expanded sand, I feel that and what I feel is that The injury that Christine talked about, our vulnerability, our desire to become better, our whole strategies around convictions and mental and emotional musts, they are so strong,
[42:32]
with such deep wounds and injuries that I can't see it, or that I haven't experienced it myself, that it ends, but that it will actually continue in practice. So, the first thing is simply that I see it, experience it. So, where was the beginning? Okay, it may be that I've just never entered practice fully enough or something, that I would have had this experience that suffering is, emotional suffering is fully ended. But my sense is that if I look at the Sangha or also the wider Sangha, that
[43:41]
that the wounds which, much like how Christina spoke, the wounds that have oftentimes the root of our coping strategies and so forth of everything, how we relate to the world and so forth, that these are, it's important that they are dealt with through practice and that they keep being part of the continuous practice. And two years ago, I remember we had such an intense discussion in the break that I asked you to come join it. Yes, I remember. There I asked him about the experience of the restaurant, where it is a very developed practice and the experience.
[44:52]
And this gap, I think, is here. And at the time, I asked you a question about a practitioner in Crestone where through a matured practice, it seemed, she had a very strong or developed sense of practice experience. But on the emotional, in terms of how to interpersonally relate and how to behave in a group and so forth, there seemed to be this tremendous gap. And I think what this is about for some of us is this gap that can occur. You spoke about the power of consciousness, and I think that today, too, the practice of bringing attention to the feeling, or to the appearance,
[46:21]
that I was really in the deep, or in the deep experience of all connectedness, or also in the bliss. And my experience is that also about my questions, also about my limitations, my blockages or my inhibitions, So for me, last year or so you spoke about the, what do you call it, diving, the bell that sings through the ocean in different layers. Yeah, the diving bell. The diving bell. And you spoke about how to sink through many layers of mind. Mm-hmm. And for me, practice is that through my very difficulties and wounds, I feel that this is how I think more deeply through the different layers of mind.
[47:41]
Okay, so I think, let me just say, if you reflect a little on what we've said and then take our break a bit late. And you made me promise to stop at six, so, you know, we... Okay. Okay. Maybe the... Maybe there's a difference here in the realm of catalyzation, where you catalyze your experience. Yeah, and that I, you know, because at the level at which we're talking, things work at such a turn on such small things, even infinitesimal things, I'm going to have to incubate this, is the word I prefer to understand, for, you know, for some time.
[49:10]
Yeah, okay. But it also, what I hear is, my own fault, is that there's But yeah, that there's the ideal practitioner. And we can talk about that. And talking about it or having it present creates this imaginal body which realizes that transformative practice and enlightenment is really possible. And the feeling is, in society, someone should do this.
[50:15]
But the problem is very few people can actually do it. Mostly because of circumstances. Okay. I asked Suzuki Roshi once, how many really realized persons are there in Japan? He said, less than ten. And I said, when Buddhism was healthy and really strong in the society, how many were there? Less than 20. Yeah. But still, it is the case that society benefits from having a few people in the culture who fully realize the practice.
[51:57]
I'm not one, by the way. I'm not one, but it's been my intention. So that means that I've sacrificed everything, everything except that. And I feel it's cruel. I feel I've caused a lot of suffering by walking my path so thoroughly. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass da etwas Grausames dran ist, das Gefühl, dass ich viel Leid verursacht habe, dadurch, dass ich meinen Weg so vollständig gegangen bin. Aber ich habe immer das Gefühl, dass jemand das tun sollte, selbst wenn diese Person es so unvollkommen tut wie ich. But most people who do monastic practice, they themselves are not much different than lay practice.
[53:20]
And it's been painful for me, too, to see that Dogen, who, as I said the other day to some people, was open to men and women practicing and lay people practicing, but at the end of the life, he decided only a few monks can do it. And I watched Sukhiroshi. He was open to everyone, but he gave real attention to about two people. And that relates to what we have been talking about by invitation at least.
[54:22]
What is a sight of knowing? Knowing not is knowledge, but a sight of knowing where knowing and feeling is possible. Feeling and knowing is possible. Okay. Now, if I try to give a really brief outline of Zen practice, And as I've said before, Zen practice seems to have no stages, but the stages are left up to the practitioner to identify. But one of the first things you do is you really stop thinking about anything. Yeah, even into bumping into walls instead of going to the door. Okay.
[55:40]
And you substitute thinking for feeling. I mean, you substitute feeling for thinking. As I say, sometimes you can practice by, you come to a doorway, you use the doorway in a Pavlovian sense, you come to a doorway and you refuse to think about what's next and you only do what you feel next as you come into the room. The beginning practice is something like we've often talked about. Yes, welcome, etc. To everything. So you've shifted from thinking to feeling.
[56:55]
And to noticing as connoticing without thinking about. And you are distinguish between feeling and emotions. And what I think has been important is you explore emotions by exaggerating them until you experience fear like a panic attack in southern. You're white with fear and just stay in it. Maybe that's very male, but that's what you do. What? Okay, maybe. I hope so. But I'd be accused of being male. Okay. So you attempt to get to know every kind of emotion you can find.
[57:56]
Everything comes up. Anger, jealousy, you exaggerate it and just stay in the middle of it. Then you get the ability to stay in this field we talked about earlier of equanimity and stillness. And then... And one of the things I've done is inhibit all my social activity. I do not go to people's houses. I don't have dinner with people. I don't do social things as much as possible. Rarely.
[58:57]
So primarily my relationship is with practitioners. And now Nicole comes into this because she is beginning to take responsibility as a teacher. And one of the conditions before you're really given real permission to teach And you're able to relate to every person who might practice with a field of equanimity and no likes or dislikes or preferences. As soon as you notice you like this person better than that person or you feel this way, you should never teach. And so a field of equality and completely without I like the person better than them and preferences and deviations and so on.
[60:17]
And in Zen it's like this, that if you have such feelings as better with that person than with that one or so, then you should definitely not teach. So when, in normal situations, when some kind of preference comes up, or emotion, not feeling, but emotion, you just can't just put it on a shelf, say, there it is, but with this person I'll only be in a field of evenness. Then you are in that field of evenness or equanimity with all the practitioners, And only those practitioners who enter that field with you do you then give certain teachings to. Okay, now...
[61:18]
If we're going to really develop a practice which lay people can also participate in fruitfully, we have to develop a more friendly or responsive or subtle way of dealing with these things instead of just trying to, yeah, So I apologize if sometimes I imply too strict a realization or intention to practice. Yeah, so in this context, that's as much as I can say now. Okay, let's have a break. Yes? May I just still say something?
[62:50]
Yes, okay. It's your break, so I don't care. Eure Pause. Es sind zwei Wörter gekommen. Erkenntnis und Liebe. I once meditated and asked myself, what are the most important things or most important aspects in life? And the two words that came up were insight and love. And I would be interested in the Buddhist concept of love. That's a big discussion because love is embedded in the idea of a soul and God and things like that. I'm not saying your experience of love is.
[63:52]
I'm not saying your experience of love is. I'm saying that it's very difficult to talk about it because the idea of love doesn't really exist in Buddhism. That's for families and couples, stuff like that. But compassion, in which you relate to everyone all at once, is emphasized. The difference between personal love and love which is such a big important idea in Christianity, that particular dynamic doesn't exist in Buddhism. I raised my hand earlier, but this is a big... issue of courage for me to say what I'm about to say.
[65:20]
And if I move it to after the break, I might not do it. All right, we're ready. I mean, I don't know if I'm ready. If it's really so powerful, I'm not ready. Christina spoke about wounds and a collective wound. And for years, I've been wondering and dealing with constellations in a collective field. So I probably got myself into this. A little while ago I felt in a different context I felt I was confronted with a wound that was not acceptable to me.
[66:26]
It is now in my consciousness, on the edge of the subconscious. And it has something to do with what happened when I came from Germany to Austria about 40 years ago. I came to Styria and felt what there was a wound under the ceiling. And I could not feel it at that time. And we, Christine and I, fortunately did not feel it at that time. So this was a wound that really brought me to the boundaries of how I can consciously fathom. And something about the wound had to do with how I, 40 years ago, came from Germany to Austria. And at the time, fortunately, Christina and I, we did not, we weren't able to feel this wound.
[67:42]
to really allow for it to become conscious. And even now it is still so bad that it still knocks on my door. And that brings me to something I've seen here in your conversation. And so because this is not just about the end of a seminar, of a series of seminars, but also about the transition or the transmission of a school. And I've seen such transitions, transmissions in the church and in two therapeutic schools.
[68:48]
And I've never seen it being discussed as openly as I'm seeing it now and here. And I am very grateful for it. He wants to when we will meet again. Well, I mean, it's up to you. It's your break. 30 minutes? 20 minutes? 15.
[69:51]
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