Back in the early 60s, 1960s, not the 1860s. Several couples and maybe eight or sometimes nine, sometimes seven people who were all practicing with Suki Roshi, sometimes at least. Used to go down south of San Francisco to a place called Aptos. near Santa Cruz. Any of you know the area? And this one person, Pam, who's the mother of Mike, the mother of Christian Dillow's wife, ...had this big old house that many members of the family used as a place for vacations in summer and stuff like that.

[01:24]

So you could schedule through PAM a time to... to be there for a weekend or a few days. And so we would just go down there on a Friday or something and be there till Sunday afternoon or something and practice together. And gave us a feeling for practicing together. And gave us a feeling of, yeah, the role of friendship and practice. The place had a, it was a German family originally. And they had a music box.

[02:35]

It was about that big. And it was made like a... Black Forest clocked with porches. I mean, you really had people on the porches and stuff going on. And you'd crank it up on one side. Then it would play for about 10 minutes or, no, excuse me, it would play about 10 songs for 30 or 40 minutes before it, you know. So we had all this German music, you know, going on. Did you hear on TV sometimes like that? So that was the closest we had to a bell.

[03:40]

And we'd crank it up. Sometimes we'd meditate outside in the fields and sometimes in some room in the house. It was a big house. It was full of bedrooms and it had been built in the 1800s. I think it's a bed and breakfast now. Yeah, just like a pension. Anyway, that same group of people really were instrumental in starting Tassajara. So when Sukhiroshi said to me at some point, you know, most people aren't really getting it, the practice.

[04:56]

I need a place where I can meet face to face and live with practitioners. And when Suzuki Roshi once said to me at a certain point, you know, most people understand the practice or they don't really get into the practice. And I need a fixed place where I can practice with the people from face to face. So I looked for, I started, he asked me, and I'm sorry. told me this, so I started looking for a place. And I found Tassajara by chance, hiking in the mountains. More driving than hiking, but... American hiking. 20-minute walk. No criticism. I had a one-year-old daughter with me. We followed this road down to the end. We were camping out.

[06:04]

And so this same group of people sort of like spearheaded and gave us permission to try this out. And we had a meeting and we only had an income of $6,000 a year. The San Francisco group. And we had a meeting and we only had an income of $6,000 a year. So I'm rather optimistic, you know. So people said, we can't afford to do it. We only have $6,000. A year. A year. And I don't know what possessed me, but I said, well, then we've only got $6,000 to lose. So we went ahead, we wrote a brochure, and somehow it happened.

[07:15]

And it not only transformed the practice of everybody wandering around San Francisco those days who came, And it really directly led, what I saw happen to practitioners and happened to me, directly led to what we're doing here. And so this is still my way of meeting with you. I don't know any other way to meet with you anyway. And for us to understand together some of these articulations in the tradition. Like what?

[08:33]

If you just read borrowing temporarily, how would you know what it meant unless you're immersed in the tradition somehow? And borrowing temporarily becomes a gate to understanding the Heart Sutra, which we chant, and don't just chant it without knowing what it's really trying to tell us. So, you know, going back and forth between here and Crestana, I, this morning, mentioned that the kind of importance of Maitreya Buddha, Buddha of the future, And where I travel here and there between here and Creston, I realized this morning that I started talking about Maitreya Buddha and the importance of Maitreya Buddha.

[09:48]

So when Atmar Ikkyoroshinai spoke, he suggested maybe we talk about this last session, continuing or whatever. Do we want to have a What would we do without? Do we need a Sangha center, Sangha practice center? And I know, so I said, okay. And I guess this has been the discussion. And I know that I can't imagine how else I could meet with you, but I know some people think it's essential that we have a center, and some people think it's unnecessary or just a lot of trouble or expense.

[10:51]

So I would like to know whatever you think, because it's only going to happen if you want it to happen. I'm sort of out of the picture now. I'm an ornament. I mean, not even very ornamental. A schmuckstück? I didn't know I was a schmuckstück. You are a schmuckstück. I know I'm a schmuck. Now you are a schmuck. Okay. All right, so someone got something to say? Do you have to go to the kitchen? Yeah. Is it already that time? I'm not hungry yet. Not the others.

[11:53]

Oh, okay. Are we losing Yunyan or Dawu? Are we losing Yunyan or Dawu? Should it be just the way it is or should it be different? Yes, go ahead. In feeling through this topic, what appeared was that a Sangha without a lineage, I can't imagine. And at the same time, I thought, I also got the beginning of Dhamma Sangha in Germany, also the time without Johanneshof, and that also worked, Sangha also carried it, I think, to do Sesshin together, to do certain seminars together, that was possible without Sangha and we did not have teachers.

[13:07]

And I also experienced the beginnings of the Dharma Sangha in Germany. And in the beginning, we didn't have Johanneshof. And that also worked just to do sessions and seminars. It would not have worked without Sangha and without lineage. At a certain point, that led us to feeling that we need Johanneshof or wanted a center. And most of us, except for Gerald and Gisela, had no experience with it. But in my experience I can say that a place like Johanneshof and the way it has developed gives an essential structure. And also this place that's very connected to Dharma Sangha and the teaching and the Buddha.

[14:28]

And I know in my own life that the way practice has taken hold and developed, and I know this also from other people, it would not have been possible without the practice place. I can only give a review because often times when you are in the midst of something you don't really notice what the value of it is. And looking back, I would say that the practice periods that I participated in in Crestone... That this was very important in my practice and that it is certainly also part of what Suzuki Roshi wanted to establish in San Francisco when he asked for a place that makes it possible to practice together.

[16:09]

I can say that the practice periods were crucial in my practice and it's certainly also what Suzuki Roshi was looking for when he asked for a place where he can practice with people. And I find it interesting when we look at a koan in a few days like these and to trust that whatever arises throughout this week as a topic And here too, the topic is not the first time, but over and over again, the topic is Sangha. And my experience throughout the winter branches is that when such a topic arises, it always has something to do with the koan.

[17:18]

The Koran brings this out that suddenly such a topic arises and it comes out of the Koran. It's not the first time, but it relates to the Koran. And what I noticed in retrospect is also through the feedback that I get from Sandra, who does not live here and also did not participate in practical periods here in this center. and what I get as a feedback from sangha members who don't live at the center and who have not participated in practice periods at this center. Berlin or Vienna or Hamburg, that it is also crucial that for the practice outside, that they know there is a place and there are now 10, 12, 20 people who follow three months of this practice.

[18:45]

that it's crucial for these people, Berlin, Wien and so forth, to know that there is a place and that there are 10 or 20 people and that they know that these people are following the practice. This is also an exploration that makes it important that Sangha, especially in a lay practice, And that also is a way of exploring how important is Sangha in lay practice. And during Yunyang's and Daowu's times, this may not have been an issue because either they all lived in a monastery, but they wouldn't have just go somewhere for a weekend or something. What does Sangha mean in today's times?

[19:48]

but to explore what is the meaning of Sangha in these times. That the people who practice together, no matter where in Europe, that they can feel and that it is also good for them and that it is important for them what is practiced in this center and above all that a practice period takes place here. but they can feel and approve of what's happening here at this center and also especially that we have a practice period here. That's what I hear from people when I teach in different cities. Dorothea? I think that also now we are at an interesting point.

[20:54]

Yeah, because we have another building and we have the Zendo, we got bigger. And the house group grew. It's larger. And the house group also has changed. We now have a couple here and a baby. And we have people here who partially work outside or also sometimes work here. And the baby was almost born in Sashin. That's true. I mean, women are allowed in the zendo. That's not true in Japan. And they're allowed to be pregnant in the zendo. Lay life is entering here.

[21:55]

And there's more of a mix. And I think that's good. It fits into our time and day. I think it would be helpful to understand the significance of calling it a Sangha center and not a monastic center. If we were a monastic center, the entire burden or responsibility of continuing the teaching would fall on the resident group of monks. The lay people would have virtually nothing to do with it. It's like if you were a scientist or a chemist You're trained as a chemist, and you don't want amateur chemists just pouring things into beakers, you know?

[23:27]

I've done that in chemistry class, and you know it. Yeah. So it's been assumed, and was assumed by Dogen, only trained monastics can really continue the teaching. And the lay people get ceremonies. They get schmuckstücke? I guess. They are. Oh, they are.

[24:28]

Sorry, they are the schmuckstücke in the ceremony. But we have adept lay practitioners. Can this work? We don't know. And we don't know if that can work. Carol? these monastic aspects, because this monastic part, to which I can participate, is the most important thing for my practice. Especially if I just want to practice Dhuva Chakra and I just want to have a sacred practice, then I actually need this monastic framework. For me, the monastic aspect, that's something I would like to comment on. The monastic aspect is the most important part in my practice. Especially if I want to practice Yogacara Buddhism, then I need the monastic part for it.

[25:31]

I didn't understand at all For me the practice period was such a significant, crucial experience because before the practice period I had no sense of what the potential here is, of where this can all lead. And especially in these stories with rituals, which I first thought, what is all this supposed to be? But especially the rituals and the persecutions and these rules have helped me incredibly in what to embody, which I simply did not have a chance to achieve when I was old. And especially the rituals, ceremonies, where they gave me a frame in which I could start embodying something which in my daily life I have no opportunity to do anything like this.

[26:48]

um to establish a certain awareness. That is the most expensive thing for me. The most important thing for me is that it is preserved and continued to be used. And the ariyoki, for example, is an especially helpful tool. And when I look at the monks, I see that the robes are a helpful tool to embody a particular kind of mindfulness. And so for me the monastic aspect that is very important to me that it continues here and no matter how you will end up managing solving the question of responsibilities.

[28:01]

Well, are you ready to be ordained? When she's 60. 60. If we have to wait till everyone's 60, we're not going to have many people here. But Oryoki... She says, I'm not this far in my practice. Oh, come on. Oryoki, you're ordained at the beginning of practice in Zen tradition. Transmission is sort of one of the ends, fruits of practice, but you're not, in a heiji, you're not allowed in the zendo unless you're ordained and male. Which you are disqualified on two issues.

[29:08]

Okay, when they start. Transmission is... Yeah. So... You'll find a new way. This is the new way. But you can, as I notice, many of us are lay persons and we do the Uriyuki quite well. And most of the people who do practice period are not monks. Now, when I was head of the San Francisco Zen Center, it was more monastic. I had to, somebody had to be practicing with me for five years regularly before they could apply to go to Tassajara.

[30:21]

And then they had to commit to a minimum of two years without leaving and probably four to five years before they could go to Tassajara. And being ordained means you make all your decisions from then on with and through the Sangha and not just on your own terms. And I don't think our Sangha is ready for that. We'll tell people later. No, I'm just kidding. So we're a Sangha center which looks somewhat monastic. And that's this experiment.

[31:35]

Agatha? I've never been a nun and never been here for more than three months. I think that we should really continue, because we are exploring a new culture. The culture that I place myself in my stories about myself, that has not satisfied us. And I certainly think we should continue Johanneshof, because we are trying out a new culture, and the culture of locating ourselves through our narratives about ourselves, that has not been satisfying.

[32:40]

And I know that there are many people in the lay life, especially young people, who are looking for something like that. And I know that there are many people in lay life, especially young people, who are seeking. And I mentioned it before in the working group, it is a kind of dark side, that we practice ourselves in communication, in science, in law. We already know so much when we are active in lay life. And I said in our small group too, I think it's something like a dark side where we know so much. We educate ourselves in the sciences, in communication, and we know so much when we're actively engaged in our lay lives. And there are few places where we can learn non-verbal things in everyday life.

[33:45]

where we experience the body-spirit connection in the momentousness with each other. And there are very few places where we can try out non-verbally, where we can try ourselves out maybe, or we can try out things non-verbally, and where we are experiencing the body-mind connection non-verbally. There may be some courses maybe where I can experience something like that for one and a half hours or something, but there are no places for that. And I think the Buddhist teaching really only makes sense when we can have this experience somewhere. Is that like a trust?

[34:52]

Is that like a... And you can tell, I know Buddhism, I go there, and so on. People might find that interesting. And you can maybe tell other people, oh, I'm a Buddhist, I'm going to this Buddhist center and so forth, and maybe they find it interesting. But what's interesting for us ourselves is whether it actually functions, whether it actually works, whether it's a real alternative.

[35:59]

In terms of this alternative, it takes me forever to have faith in enlightenment, and I'm still not really quite there. And I need this concrete experience. I have to feel it, otherwise I won't believe it. And I just know from people who came here through me that just sitting for a week in the morning and in the evening already makes something very strong, that they want to have that. And I know from people who've come here through me, even if they just come for a week or something, just the sitting in the morning and in the evening, I know that it brought them a lot.

[37:05]

It gave them a lot where they feel, oh, here I can nourish this dark side in myself where I am seeking for something. Yeah. And that's where it needs the teaching and it needs different kinds of offers. We have to figure... Let me say that those of you... Thank you. Those of you who are here with Myokinoshi, I know you're engaged in Budapest and Bucharest and so forth with similar experiments. So please feel free to say something if you want to. And Alan, you were going to say something? Yeah, it seems to me in lady life there's no... Deutsch first, maybe? ...or beginner's mind, and it's not a concept which is very highly valued. or even recognized, and I think that here it's always been my experience.

[38:18]

After a week, I finally get an inkling of what that is again. That's a very valuable experience. It's something I need this booster shot. Are you going to translate or is she going to first? I'll translate, okay. I think that this concept of the beginner's mind has no place or no place in layman's life. It is not appreciated, it is not understood. And here, in this place, it is something that we strive for. And I also need a week until I get to this point where I practically understand what it is and become open again. Okay, yeah thanks. If I take the example of Deshimaru, when he started to practice the Sangha, he did three summer camps.

[39:36]

That was the time when everything started. But he wanted immediately to buy a place to establish a prison. He wanted to buy a place immediately to establish a place of practice. And I don't know, from the beginning he did two months in this summer camp. And I don't know why he didn't do three from the beginning. But for my... In my case, when I went to sell the mission in the eastern station in Hungary and Romania, I began with Romania to sell too, but the first thing I did was to buy the place in order that they could continue if I die immediately.

[40:54]

And when I was sent on my mission to Eastern Europe, that was the very first thing I did. To be honest, I started in Romania. And the very first thing I did was to buy a place so that people could continue after I died. So I learned in Romania because it was one year or two years after the death of Ceaușescu, the changing of regime. It was an incredible place. In Masur, it was really... And after, I don't... He doesn't like when I say that. It was really a ruined place, particularly in the middle of the town. So, okay, the place there in Romania, that was basically a place that came down in the middle of the city. Sorry, sorry, again, please. Oh, and Jonas completely renovated it and rebuilt it.

[41:57]

And in Budapest, I bought practically immediately. No, I had a dojo, I rented a place, but immediately I bought the Taizen-ji and the Hobo-ji. And in Budapest, I also rented something, but I actually immediately bought Hobo-ji and Taizen-ji. So I had a vacation and I ate it. That's why the temple Hoboji bears the name of my father. The treasury of the Sangha because it was his money. But in order that the lineage or something can really continue it needs to have a location. So it's not necessarily to be very big and luxurious, I think, but it has to exist.

[43:15]

Another story to make it fit. We are east of people and of a pie. It's not necessarily to be fantastic, luxurious, I don't know what, but it has to exist. But for me, I don't think it's important that it's big or luxurious, but it has to exist. That's important. The first question was, do we need a castle? And the second question was, do we need a mansion and nuns? We had two questions. The first was, do we need a place? And the second was, do we need monks and nuns? For the first one, my own experience is important. I was here for the first time on Easter 2006. There was no Roshi.

[44:17]

There were only a few people, I think. But... Im Nachhinein weiß ich, dass ich damals in dem Ort bemerkt und empfangen habe, was hier schon gelebte Praxis ist, und zwar nur durch den Ort, den ich besucht habe. And I was here for the first time for the Easter seminar in 2006. And at the time, there were very few people here, and there was no Roshi. But I do know now, looking back, that at the time, I already perceived what was the lived practice here just through the place. But I only knew that later. If we don't have a pioneer, so Roche is not a pioneer, with him you can also rediscover, but this strength we may rediscover at some point, but until then we also have to have preserving elements.

[45:22]

And these preserving elements are also very important for the place. And this location, I think we need especially when we don't have a pioneer and Baker Oshie, from my point of view is a pioneer. But so with Baker Oshie, we can explore new things, but and maybe we will have the strength at some point. But until then, we also need elements that maintain and sustain and the place is such an element. The second question, which I want to make short, so that I don't talk too long. I think we need a monastic core, around which something else revolves. But without a monastic core, for example, at least the Lerwa and a few others around it, must practically be the center in the spider net, around which something else revolves. And the second question, I do believe that we need a monastic core, which at least the teachers and maybe a few others around them, which is like in a cobweb, has to be the center of the cobweb where other things or other people can then move around that core.

[46:37]

So the ornament has become a spider. That's right. Yeah. You know, some Buddhist practice places or some, for instance, I know two people I've been talking to recently have been going to Goenka retreats and they're for 60 days, 30 days, and it's exactly the same. The same talks are given. The same questions are asked. It's a different group of people each time, and it depends on the teaching, and they find it quite effective. The teaching is clear, and they just bring the teaching into the group, and they're there. I spoke to two or three people who do Gorenka retreats and I don't know exactly how long they are, 30 days or 60 days. And what happens there is that they are given the same teachings every day, exactly the same process.

[47:41]

But there are different groups every time and they find it very effective. Everything depends on the teachings and they are very clear. And one of the conceptual differences with Zen practice is the Buddha is the beginning of our practice and not the goal of our practice. And the teaching is discovered through the Sangha and developed through the Sangha. It's not there before the meeting happens. So the koans aren't to teach us, they're to show us how to teach ourselves. And with the feeling we'll have experiences the Buddha never had, which is certainly true. And there is also the feeling that we will have experiences that the historical Buddha never had.

[48:49]

And that is certainly true. Suzanne? I would like to say, if you look at a world view in a changing way, I would like to say if you dedicate yourself or open yourself to a shift in world views, then I think we need a lineage. That means a lineage that basically carries this shift in worldview. When I am in the Sangha and I experience how the Sangha in meditation carries me,

[49:57]

the feeling that I am being carried by the sangha. Then my discovery is, and that's a kind of old discovery, but it has reformed itself, that these whole ancestors, That the ancestors that we recite every morning and that in the beginning cause us so much trouble, that they give the same support that the Sangha gives too. And it's new, we always open to new and free ideas.

[51:20]

But I think if this is not shaped or formed in a lineage that has a real tradition and here it has a tradition all the way back to the Buddha. And I noticed, I mean, I've never opened this letter that I received when I also received the Raksha. You're not supposed to open it, so this is very good. But I could imagine that this has something to do with me. Okay. So we should end now. But, Myokin Roshi, yes? You don't usually open it, but you can. if no one's looking.

[52:46]

And you have to know how to fold it back. It's made a little bit like orioke. I mean, origami. Okay, someone else want to say something before we look forward to dinner? Yes. Martin. I would like to say that I am happy to see that there's a place here where the Soto Zen tradition is being continued and where Suzuki Roshi's way of reconceiving, maybe I can say, reconceiving of Buddhism is continued and that that's happening here in Germany.

[54:01]

You're welcome. Whatever you said. And that the way you're teaching, Baker Roshi, that you are continuing this way of thinking and fitting it into, just reinventing it within our times and day and our culture. And I think that's very good. Thank you. I hope it's true. All right. Oh, Vicky, you want to say something, dear Vicky? Vicky? From our first practice period. Two. And the second, yeah. In the Mokusho Sangha, I guess we are mainly monks.

[55:06]

What did she say? In the Mokusho Sangha, we are mainly monks. Oh, okay. But it's different. Because wanted to people to experience the social life as . Yeah. And I think this is a bit different, maybe because Master Deshimaru wanted something different. For example, he wanted people to experience the social life as well as the monastery life. And I was ordained here before the first period of practice. So I lived at the time in our temple in Budapest.

[56:12]

I lived there for almost five years. And then I moved out, just in the next floor. We moved out, so we live there now, and then back to work. And now I've moved out and we bought a house nearby and live there. And I'm working again now. But I start the day with Zazen and sometimes I end it with Zazen too. But it is possible. It's a big tiring, but it's just natural. It started very, very early. And when you come here, in the Dharma Sangha, It's like I'm practicing with monks and nuns now.

[57:27]

Because most of you have much more experience than I do. In life and in practice. So it's just really great to be with you and to practice orientally and The way you walk and the way that the gassho and everything is just so beautiful. Thank you, Vicky. I have just one small suggestion or inspiration. Yes. When I read that the residence gave in to giving up some of their salary or their stipends, that made me sad.

[58:55]

That reminded me of a time when I was a housewife. Und ich wurde krank. And I became sick. Und jetzt hätte ich eine Anregung, dass man im Büro eine Kasse aufstellt, dass wenn man bezahlt, dass man der Hausgemeinschaft ein Trinkgeld geben könnte für ihre Arbeit. And the idea I have is that maybe we could have a donation box or some kind of register in the office where people can donate for the work of the residents. Yeah, we could, yeah. Yeah, this is a complicated thing that has a lot to do with the German government. Das ist eine komplizierte Geschichte, die auch viel mit der deutschen Gesetzgebung zu tun hat. Because here we want to and we try to provide enough income to allow for health insurance.

[60:03]

Weil was wir hier machen wollen, ist genug Einkommen sicherzustellen, dass die Leute krankenversichert sein können. And we're trying to figure out how to do that really fairly. In America, the church and state are separated. So stipends are usually $50, $20 a month. Enough for toothbrushes. So we're here trying to find out a way to do it that works in Germany. And it's something we'll continue to try to do as responsibly as possible. Okay, thank you.

[61:05]

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