At first I started studying psychology, then I started practicing Zazen on a regular basis, then I finished my studies and needed some years to become a psychotherapist, during which I sort of left practicing Zazen on a regular basis, then I found back to regular basis of Zazen. Nowadays I practice psychotherapy every day and I practice Zazen. and I experience it in such a way that I benefit from the Zen practice in what I do psychotherapeutically. For example, I had a patient who had killed her child,

[01:05]

For example, I had a patient, she killed her child and I was I don't know if that's true, but I was told that she didn't find a therapist because it was in the media and so on. And I was sort of not, I did decide right away, but finally I decided to take it. And I have been practicing for a long time, I work with the sentence, with the phrase, always already connected, so I say it in German, already connected, already connected to the body space, and that helped me to stay in contact with this woman, and that helped me to stay in contact with this woman.

[02:45]

So this is one example of how I benefit from my Zen practice and my psychotherapeutic activity. That's just one example of how I feel that I benefit from Zen practice in practicing as a second practice. That's the one line of development. The other line of development, the other is that through how shall I put it, it occurs to me that my identity as a psychotherapist in a certain way dissolves. In this respect, for example, I don't care more or less whether one should do certain things or whether such questions as Distance, or how can I say it?

[04:00]

Say it quickly. Abstinence. Distance. Detachment. What would you say in English? Distance. Abstinence is a funny word in English. Yeah, the detachment. The other line of development is that, I don't know really how to put it, but I would say it's so that my identity as psychotherapist, I feel that it dissolves during the... During the session? No, during the last two or three years, I'm practicing psychotherapy. It sometimes worries me and sometimes it doesn't, but it happens. In the way that I sometimes don't care about if this is supposedly good therapy, what I'm practicing, for example in terms of distance or detention.

[05:09]

Yeah, that's my experience, so that's what it was. I'm sure that this is all about how are those two fields related to one another in me. It's like everything in one hand and practicing that in the other hand. So somehow it's about how these two fields relate to each other in me, not in a theoretical discourse, in terms of a theoretical discourse. And at the moment I am thinking, I don't know if I will be 40 in this year, I don't know if I will be working as a psychotherapist until retirement, this is my life's work, Right now I'm not sure if I will continue practicing psychotherapy.

[06:15]

I mean, I have practiced and it's my livelihood. But I turned 40 this year, and I cannot know if I will continue to do this until I'm 65. But I'm pretty sure I will continue. Now, I think we should probably break pretty soon for lunch. But, you know, if I was a psychotherapist, what I would like to do is to get into a room with a number of other psychotherapists who also practice meditation. And I would like to ask each person to maybe tell me, list three to five things

[07:16]

which they brought from Zen practice into psychotherapy. And that's obviously been useful psychotherapy, like what you just said. And then I'd like to sort of say, geez, I have two or three examples, or five, and you have two or three, and I didn't understand yours, and maybe I could add them, and Something like that. And then there might be some agreement among the group and you'd say, well, here's two or three things. What's the background of those things? How can you actually develop them in a way in your own practice so that they're developed enough to bring into therapeutic practice?

[08:33]

And then maybe And then I'd like to reverse it and think about what... things from psychotherapy have helped me in my practice. Now, that's one thing we could do. part of this time. If we have another month. But that seems kind of stupid to do it with me speaking English, you know. I mean, you could do it so much more easily without me just speaking German. Yeah, I'm just the wild card here. I am actually only the wild card or the joker.

[09:40]

The joker? I said the wild card. I translate it into the wild card. Any card can be the wild card, but it could be the joker. Another thing is that a number of you have been at my seminars in the last few months. And the seminars in Austria now and then, which I've been doing for 15 years with a group of psychotherapists. So you know some of the things I've talked about or that, you know, that, yeah, that you might think, oh, I should bring it into this group. If you mention something like that, I can see if I can make sense of it in this context.

[10:52]

Another is, I could just... Start speaking about anything that occurs to me for whatever reason it does. Or we could do whatever else you want. So what do you think? What do you want? I mean, it's more interesting to me if there's participation from you. But I'm enjoying myself in any case. The first emphasis should be what's most interesting to you. I mean, I'm happy if you're all here to make me happy, but that, you know... Yeah, but it makes more sense if we're...

[11:58]

do something together. So I'm open to suggestions and we're going to have a break right now. And how long should lunch be? Two hours? Three hours? One hour? Start at three. So in two hours, we'll meet. And that's time enough if people want to find restaurants and toilets. Okay. She wants to make an announcement. There's nothing ordinary. It's all like... Let's go have lunch and go ahead. Then you can sign up in the list to work. This is a woman who makes that here.

[13:24]

There's something down there. You're going to put them over. I see, but there's nothing to put there. Oh, really? and then a dream with food, yes or no, for tomorrow. I can't say that anymore. And the suggestion is, the nicest garden restaurant is in Bricia, in a long street, and there you can have a nice breakfast, and a vegetarian meal. Some restaurants are nothing like Bricia. Would anyone go there who knows him? Norbert and Angela for lunch suggested, and one or two other people suggested it as well, and suggested that...

[14:28]

We start out this afternoon with small groups. Actually, it seems like a good idea to me too. And I only wish I could participate. I'll spy. Dare I suggest an obvious topic? Could it be the relationship between Buddhism and psychotherapy? More specifically, it might be, as I spoke before lunch, what have you brought to psychotherapy from your practice and vice versa, from psychotherapy to your practice.

[15:38]

And if you're not a therapist, there's a few people in the world who aren't therapists. Taking each other's laundry is not the expression. You don't have that expression? Okay. And if you've done the psychotherapy, been a client and practiced, you can see how practicing and doing psychotherapy have affected each other. Or how your profession whatever it is, has been influenced by practice or psychotherapy.

[16:46]

And if you have no experience of Zen, meditation or psychotherapy, you can talk about food. So I'll let you... You know how many rooms you've got in the house, or spaces. So why don't you do the side, the composition and process and so forth.

[17:10]

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