Just to get us started, let me say something. But I would also like to hear something from you because it doesn't make any sense for me just to speak from the territory of my own experience. I should also speak within the territory of your experience. So I'm wondering what you heard yesterday and what you understood. But I want to go back to this entry of aliveness. Well, let me just say that I started out asking myself, I think I mentioned maybe in the Sushina, asking myself, what is the meaning of existence?

[01:29]

It was both an implicit and explicit question for me from the time I was as early as I can remember. Okay, but after a while the word meaning was no longer meaningful. It seemed to go into thinking. And then the thoughts of other people and so forth. But my feeling was, if I'm existing, I should be able to discover it without the help of other people.

[02:32]

Of course my whole life now is the help of the Buddhist lineage. But still, even so, one has to, even with the help of teachers, you have to be ready to receive the help. And good morning. And dropping the... I didn't say good morning to anyone else. Good morning. Guten Morgen. [...] And I began to ask myself just, what is existence?

[03:33]

And that question sort of sat there for a long time. But at least it was fruitful in its going nowhere. I really didn't get a feeling, I didn't realize one response, one answer, one answer to my question was aliveness itself. I mean this is simple stuff, but it takes sometimes generations to get simple stuff clear. And I've lived for more than three generations now.

[04:35]

So I guess I can say generations. Yeah, but usually it's hundreds of generations. Anyway, so I... Through practicing Zazen I began to find the treasure of aliveness itself. And then certainly... I mean, I think... I would have... simply thought about it as being something I can experience under certain circumstances. Climbing a mountain or a cliff or something.

[05:37]

Or doing Zazen. It seemed to me, I think I probably thought of it as a context-specific experience. But it was my Buddhist practice, Zen practice, which made me realize I could shift my experience of continuity to aliveness itself. And that shift then began to open up many things through that continuity. And all, I would say, all Buddhist practice is based on repetition.

[06:49]

But repetition in a continuum of alterity or continuity of alterity Aber die Wiederholung in einem Gebiet von Alterität oder einer Kontinuität der Alterität. So repetition which becomes continuously an experience of other or otherness. Also eine Art von Wiederholung die fortwährend eine Erfahrung von Andersartigkeit oder anders wird. So mantric practice is based on repetition. Zazen practice is based on repetition. And what defeats many people in zazen practice is it gets boring. And the boredom barrier is self-constructed. The self does not like Zazen too much.

[08:03]

The self says, mind your own business. If you keep doing this, I'm going to really bore you to death. And if you really... Continue, I may, if this is one of your weaknesses, threaten you with going crazy. So you have to get past the boredom barrier. And one way that happens is when just being alive is fantastic, ecstatic. Yeah, and ecstatic, of course, in German, too, it means out of place, ecstatus, out of the...

[09:04]

And when you find yourself not locked in, a kind of bliss, ecstasy occurs. It seems to be just part of aliveness itself. Aliveness itself. Aliveness is aliveness. Thanks for trying. You're welcome. And also the learning curve in zazen is often a descent.

[10:24]

In the early days it shows pretty high and then it flattens out and it almost seems to descend. Then after a while it gradually starts developing in a new way. So there's a big difference when the experience of liveness is context-specific. When that big difference between that and when a liveness becomes how you establish continuity. Because then that aliveness as a continuum begins to talk to everything you do. Yeah. Okay. Now, from that you saw where I went yesterday.

[11:27]

And where I went yesterday really brings into question or well, let's just say it that way brings into question the concept of the unconscious. Yeah, and I don't know if I can make clear the degree to which that is so or how that is so, but let's see. Because, you know, I'm myself exploring how to speak about this because I'm with you guys who know a lot more about psychology than me, so I have to say something. So I cautiously start wondering what have I wandered into?

[12:51]

But you're a nice forest. Okay, so what does the forest have to say? Well, let me say, you know, there was an eccentric Chinese emperor who appointed a tree as his prime minister. Really? And every time he needed advice, he went out and sat under the tree. And then what he thought of, sitting under the tree, he made, you know, sit. So you're a very nice forest, too. Sitting here with him. Okay. Okay. Who's going to be second?

[14:07]

I'll save the first place for someone else. I can't say what I understood yesterday, at least not from my head, but more from my body. When I came here yesterday I had the impression I feel torn apart like in two halves. And my entire left half of my body felt very heavy, whereas the right half felt somehow lighter or almost non-existent.

[15:10]

And yesterday, later in the afternoon, I felt like that balanced and also that this feeling of being torn apart wasn't there anymore. Okay. So the feeling of being torn apart occurred during the morning seminar? It was before you came? Okay, thank you. I have a few unfinished thoughts about continuity. On the one hand you speak about the continuity of liveness and how to anchor yourself there.

[16:26]

And then you've also talked about the construction of continuity through thinking. Okay, construction of consciousness, and yeah, okay. In psychotherapy we sometimes say almost in a colloquial way that the body carries all memories. It's not meant in a scientific way but still that somehow the body carries all or stores all memories somehow or experiences actually.

[17:50]

So that there is also a continuity there. Looked at psychologically. And in psychotherapy we have a lot to do with the interruption of continuity. it can be in psychotherapy it can be survival important for survival to to put a wedge into continuity for psychological survival for psychological survival so that discontinuity is important as well

[19:05]

Or in the context of psychotherapy. Okay, yeah, I understand. So that I'm a little wondering about or feeling almost lost in the fact that we appreciate this continuity. But at the same time, we are working towards re-establishing continuity in psychotherapy. Re-establishing a new continuity, a more inclusive continuity. Okay, yeah. And that both seems important, continuity and discontinuity.

[20:12]

Yeah. Well, zazen is a break in continuity. Which I would say opens you up to less obvious or less conscious continuities. So, at least conceptually it's very similar. And you want someone else. Yes. I ask myself, I often experience that I just have such a body feeling of something. So sometimes such a feeling that tells me something in a situation like going or going away, for example. I often make the experience that I am in any given situation simply have some kind of physical felt sense, like that tells me something like go towards or go away from or something like that.

[21:23]

And often I don't really understand what the meaning of that would be. it doesn't really show itself or is not represented as something that I understand consciously or that I can make sense of even. And it's difficult for me when I want to go somewhere on a conscious level of connection, but my body-feeling says no. And then I still don't know what to do. And it gets difficult for me when on a conscious, contextual kind of level I feel like I should do that, I feel like I should go there, something seems right, but my felt sense tells me no.

[22:34]

And I never know what to do then. Und auch weiß ich dann nicht, ob dieses Körpergefühl, ist das was Letztgültiges, oder ist das was, wo ich mich vielleicht auch verändern muss, um mich dem anzupassen. Weil mein Verständnis sein mag, die Situation ist eigentlich, die will ich doch. And then also I never know is this, just because it's the body it somehow feels more fundamental and I never know is that somehow final or should I practice with it and, you know, just change? I mean, I would have to change cellularly, but... Really? Yeah. But should I just change and become the person that can do that what I think is right or that seems to make sense? You mean, can you be the person who follows the felt sense or the person who follows the more rational goal or aim?

[23:44]

I mean, can I become the person that can pursue that goal that seems right in its context without having the felt sense obstruct me? Also, ich meine, kann ich die Person werden, die dieses Ziel, das irgendwie richtig scheint, verfolgt, obwohl mein Körpergefühl, also ohne dass mein Körpergefühl mich da zurückhält oder stört? Why do you want to resist the felt sense? Is it because the other seems just too reasonable? Well, it's because I may have my reasons for the thing I want to do, and I have no really good reason not to do it, except for this felt sense. What advice would you give her? It's a myth to believe that every body feeling is a placenta or something you have to follow.

[25:07]

The body also has a lot of other types. It's something completely different than a clear body feeling. Yes, I don't mean an impulse. I mean a clear information for a direction. Yes. This feeling that I have is unclear in its meaning, but it is clear as a feeling itself that always comes up again and again when I encounter situations. Always my first feeling in the situation. Es fühlt sich nicht irgendwie impulshaft oder launisch oder so an, aber es ist unklar in dem, was es eigentlich ist.

[26:09]

Und ich finde dann schon manchmal Symbole dazu. Also ich weiß nicht, es kommt mir schon so vor, als ob das ein Fanzenz sein könnte. I translate pretty soon. Okay. So she said that first of all it's a myth to think that every physical sensation is something one should follow, that the body is wrong often. Really? And that felt sense is something that's rather vague, that it's not clear and that if it's a felt sense then you can stay with it and something clear may unfold from that that then follow.

[27:10]

And I responded that my sense of the kind of sense that I'm talking about, I don't know if it's a felt sense or not in the focusing terminology, but I'm not talking about something that's very evanescent or that'll change with my mood. I'm talking about a real clear information in a given situation that keeps coming up whenever I enter the situation somehow. And that is just not clear in its meaning, but it's clear in its physical direction somehow. Okay. And what Günther said is that it seems that what's important at this point is to let the two, like consciousness and the sense, communicate. I mean, we are not in a psychotherapeutic situation, but if we were in a psychotherapeutic situation,

[28:19]

Maybe if we all agree on that, if we want to discuss something like that, we would say, bring an example. Let's talk specifically about it. We live in an abstraction level, we can talk about it forever. In any case, that's how I would deal with such a situation. And maybe we should also discuss this concretely here. Then maybe it will become clearer. So in a psychotherapeutic setting, which we are not in right now, the thing to do would be to bring an example. Because without an example, the situation can't be resolved. So if we were to discuss this further, we'd have to... You'd have to give us an example. Yeah. You could sit behind a black screen and pretend we don't know who you are. That's what I would wish for, yeah.

[29:23]

And when we took the screen away, there'd actually be a different person. Yes, Ralph. One thing I wanted to say is that the topic of aliveness is also for psychotherapeutic work a very fundamental aspect. Oh, good. No, I'm happy to hear it. You know, I live in my isolated Zen world. I don't know what's going on.

[30:27]

I live in my isolated Zen world. I don't know what's going on. And there are two psychoanalysts for called the mystics of psychoanalysis. Really? Yeah, which is Vinicot and Bion. And Vinicot said once, when he asked about the work of the analyst, I try to stay awake, alive and healthy. And Winnicott said when he spoke about the work of the psychoanalyst, he said, I'm trying to stay awake, healthy and alive.

[31:28]

Yeah. And Björn describes the central attitude of the analytiker as no memory, no desire and no understanding. And this is how this other guy describes the central attitude of the analyst. The role of the analyst or the role of the client or the role of you in your own life? No, no, the role of the analytiker. Just the role of the analyst in the analytical situation. The question I wanted to ask, and it sounds nice and everyone feels somehow addressed, the problem is that the difference between meditation and psychotherapy is that in psychotherapy you are in a relationship. The question I wanted to ask, it all sounds good and everybody feels talked to, but the difference between psychotherapy and meditation is that in the psychotherapeutic setting there are two people, you are in a relationship.

[32:45]

That is a very important question for me, how this vitality, this central theme of vitality in relation to relationships, to interpersonal subjects, to relationships, to others. 80-90% of the problems our patients have are relationship difficulties. Often the problem is to stay in a living relationship. And the question I wanted to ask is how does the topic of aliveness relate to relationships, intersubjective relationships, because 90% of the therapeutical work are about relationships and how to stay in a vivid relationship or in a life relationship.

[33:50]

Well, first let me ask, would you recommend one or two books or something of these mystic psychotherapeutic therapists, therapeutic writers or whatever, to me later? And what was the mental posture of the therapist? No memory, no... No desire. Yeah. He means, if you want to... No memory, no desire, and no understanding. Yeah. Well, that would be exactly what you'd recommend to a Zen teacher who has to do Dotsan. the process of Doksan is to take that posture So that's exactly what you... I'll translate it again. No memories, no desires, no... Or how do you say it in German, actually?

[35:03]

There's definitely a German formula for that, isn't there? No memories, no desires, and... And no understanding. No understanding. That's exactly what you would say to the Zen teacher, with which attitude he should go to the doksan. Yeah, okay. Well, most of what you brought up I'd like to see if I can come back to. But the The primary relationship of teacher and disciple is a one-on-one, face-to-face relationship.

[36:16]

But the difference is, it's not once a week for ten years, it's every day for ten years. I mean, it might be seven, but anyway, the conception is that it's a long time. And the word doksan itself means to go alone. So the feeling is in the relationship between the disciple and the teacher is you're constantly going alone to the relationship. And the first step in the everyday relationship is to establish a non-social space.

[37:20]

which I think when you go to your therapist it's not somebody you have dinner with things like that usually and then after some time that non-social space turns into it doesn't matter whether you're rejected or not rejected or liked or disliked and you know my teacher for instance at one point stopped looking at me for one year And after a certain while it doesn't matter whether you are rejected or not rejected, whether you are loved or not loved. My teacher decided at a certain point, for example, that he doesn't look at me anymore for a whole year. So I remember for a month or two I thought, what the heck is going on here? And then I decided this is his problem. I don't care what he does. He's going to be my teacher whether he likes it or not.

[38:26]

And then after about six months I guessed, I bet it ends in a month, in a year. I mean, I'd stand right in front of him and bow to him when I came out of the Zendo, and he would bow to me, but he'd always look away, avoid my glance. Just about exactly a year later, when I bowed to him, he looked and smiled at me. But in normal circumstances, a therapist and a client can't do this. So there are some differences, you know. But what you said interests me.

[39:32]

Let me try to come back to it. Someone else. Yes. I think I have a similar question to what came from Ralf. I experienced such situations as we are sitting here, as well as earlier when I did off-sessions, always as a well-being in the group. I had an almost similar question to the one that Raif had. And I remember that, for example, when I was sitting in Sashin's, then I always had the feeling of being at ease and feeling well and almost feeling secure. Okay. Secure and taken care of somehow in the rules and in the... And when I'm with other people who feel like a group or when I think about how I want to grow older together, for example in a housing project, then I notice how chaotic it is when it comes to what the individual wants and that it is impossible to find a basis at all.

[40:52]

That's not always easy even in a relationship. And whenever I am in a group setting and also when I think about how I want to get older, maybe for example in a living project where people live together, where people get older together. that then it always seems so chaotic and it's so difficult to find a way with all these different things that people want and to find a neutral base that's even difficult with just two people already. And then I can see that the same conflicts that I constantly hear about from my clients, of course with different degrees, are also there in myself. And that seemingly it always has to do with needs or desires and with what people want and don't want. Yeah, it makes me think of a

[41:53]

And sometimes I think the only place I can live at is a monastery where there are these rules and things are accepted. You're welcome anytime. Hi. Norbert and I will have a little conversation. So three months at a time is okay? Okay. You know, they did an experiment in San Francisco once, I think it was, when I was living there. They got a bunch of old people living in single rooms in kind of, you know... there's a word for it, slum hotels.

[43:08]

Yeah, and they were all getting checks from the government, which didn't give them enough money to support them. Yeah. And so somebody organized them and they got together and they bought a house. I think two houses next to each other. And people had a shared kitchen and they shared their money. And they all had more money and they had a television set and everything, you know. Everything, a television set. And they all moved out. And they all moved out because they couldn't stand each other.

[44:13]

And they went back to their rooms with no money and, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this question, you know, this question of a felt sense and what should she do with blah, blah, blah. And what Buddhism means by spontaneity. And what Buddhism means by non-doing. And the craft of not knowing. Because it is a craft. The craft of non-doing. I just don't know in the time we have if I can find the ground, the shared ground to speak about it.

[45:17]

Yeah, but... But maybe I'll try. But I think we need a break.

[45:34]

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