When I would like to talk about is... First, before I talk, I want to talk about... I've been thinking of having what we call a shosan ceremony. And a shosan is a question and answer which usually takes place after sashin or training period. And some people do it once a month in some places.

[01:03]

It's a question and answer between the teacher or practice leader and the participant. And we used to do it with Suzuki Roshi after Sushin sometimes, Tassahara. And we stopped doing it. Baker, she did it sometimes for Sahara, but not very often. But I'd like to do that with you. It's a kind of quick question and answer, not a philosophical or... prolonged dialogue, but a question and answer and some give and take, you know, maybe just one question and an answer, or maybe a question and answer and then another question, or another part of that question, you know, but not much.

[02:23]

before thinking too much. You have to think of your question, but the answer should be very direct and cutting through thinking mind. And maybe some response, cutting through thinking mind. So that point is to have that kind of dialogue where you don't have a chance to mull it over, you know, but you just respond, make a response, not too quick, but immediacy is what it's about, so that your minds are in accord.

[03:42]

It doesn't have to be a question, actually. You can just You can ask a question. Some kind of information, if you want some information. Or you can just bow, you know. Could be various things. You're not really held to do something, you know, prescribed. but some kind of either question or statement or gesture of expression. And

[04:59]

If we want to do this, I'd like to do it tomorrow. And if we want to, let me know. Would you like to do it? I was thinking about it this morning and I was going to ask you if you would do it. Oh yeah? It must have been in the air. I remember this time very well. So we can do it various ways. Sometimes it's done standing. Usually everybody's standing. And sometimes the doshi is also standing. Or sitting. But usually the person who asks the question comes in bows, makes a prostration,

[06:07]

And if they're sitting, the person gets into Chokei, which is up on your knees, and you ask the question. You know, Seiza is with your legs behind you, and Chokei is when you're standing up on your knees. That's one way to do it. The other way is to make a prostration and then just stand up and ask a question. So we can decide what to do, how to do that. And I think it's good if the doshi is at one end of the room and the person asking the question is at the other end of the room. Sometimes people do it with the question right up, you know, here. So it's good, you know, to have the person at the other end of the room and they have to project their voice to ask the question.

[07:22]

You have to talk over there, which is good for everybody. And you can all hear, everybody can hear, you know, so the dialogue is taking place all the way across the room and everyone is included. So, anyway, I'd like to do that, if it's okay. Would you like to do that? Yes? The question is asked of the teacher or by the teacher? Of. You ask the question. And the teacher gives the response. So, think of something good. Not too hard, no.

[08:34]

But as I say, it doesn't have to be a question, and it can be just expressing some feeling, you know. some kind of expression. So we'll do that tomorrow afternoon, just before the end of Sashim. Do you have any other questions about it? And then we'll figure out the form in the meantime. Yes. That's the intent.

[09:35]

It sounds partly like theater of sorts. And partly just to see what comes up. Yeah. Very spontaneous. It's to see what comes up in a spontaneous way. Because the questions and answers are... I don't like to say answers, Responses are very real. Is it very serious or is it light? It's serious. Light is okay. But your light question may get a serious response. So you can't say... And your heavy question may get a light response. That's all right. That's okay. But it shouldn't be, if it's light, it should have some serious intent. It's not like when the teacher asks someone a question, you have to answer immediately.

[10:47]

Yeah, it's kind of like that. You don't ask. You ask the question, and I have to answer immediately. immediate, you know, being fairly quick. No hitching around for time. Well, it's possible though. That may, that will probably happen. But anyway, short question and a short answer. No time to think too much. Well, the thing that I want to talk about is that at this point in Sashin, a lot of people start wondering, lots of us start wondering what the point of Sashin is, you know, sitting five days, six days, and every day you sit through your painful

[12:29]

legs, you know, and one zazen period after another, then one day after another. And we sometimes get to a place where we say, what's the point of all this? Why all this pain? Why repeating this over and over again? Here I go again, you know, crossing my legs again. So we get into that kind of mode, and we... When Sishin is over, we understand it better. It's okay. But somewhere in the middle, someplace in there, we begin to doubt the whole thing. and begin to wonder why we're doing it and what it's about.

[13:36]

We want to feel pretty comfortable, you know. When we come to meditation, we're looking for something wonderful. Meditation, you know. People say wonderful things about meditation. When you read the books, you know, and meditation is the most wonderful thing. You really get on various clouds by doing meditation. If you read the jhanas, if you study the jhanic stages of meditation, you can go from one, stage one to stage nine, and you end up on cloud nine. I'm thinking about that. I think that's where they got that phrase, Cloud Nine.

[15:09]

Somebody must have been, whoever coined that phrase must have been in touch with the jhanas, the jhanic states. And actually our meditation is based on, in some way, on the jhanic states because the jhanas are pre-Buddhistic. meditation states. And a lot of the people who practiced Buddhism in Buddhist time had practiced the Jhanic meditation states and had access to a good concentration because of that. And the Jhanic states were kind of incorporated into Buddhist meditation. They were not really used. They were used as examples of meditation, but strictly speaking, they're not Buddhist meditation, even though you read about them in Buddhist texts, because they don't lead to nirvana.

[16:28]

They're highly concentrated states of mind. which give you special, certain states of... In other words, by practicing the various jhanic practices, you reach different states of prescribed states of mind. you can't stay in those states of mind, because nothing's permanent, and especially a meditational state of mind is not permanent. So you come down out of it eventually, and so it's not really nirvana or realization. But they're very wonderful kind of states, and they how you practice meditation, but the point is different.

[17:39]

And so it's good to understand something about those two, what they are, in order to see, because there's a lot of similarities in zazen and the jhanic states. But when we think about meditation, We think in terms of the jhanic states. We think that by practicing we'll reach some wonderful state of mind called enlightenment or realization or peace. We have these concepts about meditation. But when we actually go to sit sadhana, or sit sasheen, all we have is a lot of pain.

[18:47]

And so it's really disappointing. You know, sadhana is very disappointing. Because it just, every day, you know, the pain gets worse. It's more and more. And even people who've sat sasheen, you know, for years, still have the same doubts. People ask me, do you still have pain in your legs? Sometimes they ask me, do you still have pain in your legs when you sit? You don't look like you have pain in your legs. But yes, I always have pain in my legs when I sit. Whenever I sit sashimi, I have a lot of pain in my legs. So, when we begin to sit sachin, we see that peace of mind, or nirvana, or realization, is not easily won.

[20:04]

It's there, but it's not easily won. Unfortunately, peace of mind or great ease goes along with great pain. So people think that meditation, you know, by practicing meditation you escape from the world of suffering or not suffering but the world of the undesirable world the world of undesirable feelings and enter some blissful realm but bliss or ease

[21:08]

or equanimity or enlightenment is not easily won. It goes hand in hand with pain and discomfort and So it's not by getting rid of pain that you have ease, but how you find the ease within the pain. So we said, one period after another,

[22:12]

painful legs, until we finally let go and find our ease in it. It's really rather simple, but very hard, very difficult, because we're very much attached to our feelings. We're very much attached to pain. and we're very much attached to pleasure. It's quite human, human nature. We're actually going against human nature that we sit in Zazen, because human nature is to be attached to pleasure and pain. So, to actually sit this way is more like almost outside of the realm of human nature. Buddha nature.

[23:16]

It's Buddha nature. But Buddha nature is also human nature. There are Buddhas and human beings. But Buddhas are human beings. There are no Buddhas that are not human beings. So there's Buddha nature and human nature. But humans are Buddhas. Buddha nature and human nature is the same but also different. When we can find ease in our pain, find ease in our seat, not crave after anything, not be attached to anything, then we can have great ease and great joy, actually, joy of non-attachment, which is different than the joy of... which comes from pleasure, usual kind of pleasure.

[24:34]

It's like... sitting in the middle of the fire, and I'm not being consumed by it. So, from time to time, we have ease in our sitting. But it also drops off, you know, and we find ourselves in a very difficult position. And so it kind of goes back and forth.

[25:38]

When we do everything right, you know, we feel that we can deal with it okay. but then it falls off again. As soon as we start to think about it, we get into trouble because our thinking starts to produce some desire. I want it, I wish it was not like this, I wish it was like some other way. As soon as we start to wish, it gets, we fall into one side. makes it worse, and the more we wish to be free from it, the worse it gets. So you have to stop thinking, I wish I was someplace else, or I wish it was different, or I wish the bell would ring, or I wish something. You have to wish to be where you are.

[26:42]

No gap between body, mind, and intention. I wish to be with this. You don't actually wish that, you just are that. Without thinking ahead. Thinking ahead sets up a desire, you know, to escape. And thinking back doesn't help. We don't usually think back. Sometimes we do. We think, geez, you know, how did I get into this? That's thinking back. But thinking ahead is more where we are, you know. Always trying to get out of it. It's very hard to stay there.

[27:45]

You know, it's just not human nature to want to stay there. So, we all sympathize with each other, but at the same time we know that there's something there. You know, even though we don't know it, even though we want to escape, we know there's something there. But we don't quite know what it is. We don't know exactly why it is. And then there are moments when there's some but we don't always know why that is either. So it's a really hard struggle. And the most important ingredient is determination and endurance. Every once in a while someone will say, well, it's just an endurance test.

[28:48]

Who needs that? It's just kind of an endurance test. As if endurance was something that you just dispense with. That's not important. It's just endurance. But endurance is actually the most important quality. It's the foundation of will and it supports will and it supports intention and it carries you through from beginning to end and allows you to penetrate One time I asked Suzuki Roshi in a lecture, what is nirvana?

[30:00]

And his response was very good. He said, seeing one thing through to the end. That was a real turning point for me. Seeing one thing through to the end. With all of its twists and turns and ups and downs and trials and joy and pain and whatever it brings. It's all included in nirvana. We like to think that nirvana is the opposite of samsara, but actually they're inextricably connected.

[31:17]

So we can't have our nirvana without our samsara. Not possible. And it's pretty hard to understand that without practicing zazen. So the pain, you know, in your legs can be almost unendurable. But still, you know, you endure it. Still you endure it. And that ability to endure

[32:23]

what you can't endure. The only way you can do that is to develop great calmness, great calm mind. And to have that calmness of mind that can accept the difficulty and be with it is what we need to have in order to have realization. So we can sit zazen for various reasons.

[33:34]

But Cixin we should really work hard at. We really have to work hard in Cixin. And it's kind of endless. You may feel that once you get it, that it'll be easy from then on. But it is easier. It gets easier. It's true, it does get easier. But it doesn't mean that there's less pain. It just gets easier. Because your mind gets bigger, and you can accept it more easily. When you accept it just like that, it's very easy. When you hesitate, it gets very difficult.

[34:40]

So you have to embrace it right away. And when you learn that point, then you begin to feel more progress. So, right away, without judging, you know, or without saying, oh, this is terrible, or put it like it, or something like that. to just open yourself and embrace it and you can be it and there's nothing in opposition no opposite to compare it with when we have an opposite to compare it with then it becomes an object and we name it and give it, actually create something out of it.

[35:46]

But if you just leave it alone, just leave it be, just become it without any opposite, then you have much less problems. But that's hard to do. It's like Pain can be your enemy, or it can be your companion, or it can be your friend. It can be many things. But if we try to shake it, It's much stronger than you. It will win every time. So, you have to keep balance.

[36:54]

Keep a fine balance. And one way, if One of the factors is to sit up straight with a straight back. This is your determination and your active participation in zazen. Sitting up straight is your will to free your spirit. And at the same time, to keep your mind very soft and receptive. So you have the active and the receptive working together. The active part, which is your posture, is your strong will and strong spirit.

[38:04]

in which your whole body and mind is brought into this one act and soft mind allows everything to come and includes it within your sphere so that the whole universe is included in zazen and your mind contains it all And it's like a wreath or like a blade of grass in the wind, you know, just it moves with the wind. But if it stands out too much, you know, the wind is very strong and if it's brittle, it'll break. So you want to let your mind be very soft like grass and move with the wind. And both of these factors working together in harmony are necessary.

[39:19]

So just to be able to sit moment after moment is enough. You don't have to wait for some great experience. Just being able to sit with that kind of ease is a great experience, moment after moment, if you can really do it. But if you say, this is a great experience, you lose it. So we always want something, and the thing that our idea always causes us to lose it. So without too much idea about it, just to be able to do it is enough. So it's a kind of refining process.

[40:24]

Our life is being refined over and over by Zazen. And If we're really sincere and really work and have faith in Zazen, it begins to be expressed in your life. If you just play at it, you keep waiting for something to be expressed, but it doesn't come out, because it's not you. It has to be totally you, and then it gets expressed. naturally. So there's some price that we have to pay, you know, if we want to have that kind of realization

[41:49]

We have to pay something for it. Whatever you get, you have to pay something for it. Everything is free, but we have to pay for it anyway. So if you want something very high, very expensive, you have to pay a high price. So anyway, I want to encourage you to please work hard. If there's too much effort, you get stiff.

[42:52]

So that's not so good. You get top-heavy. And if there's too little effort, you get lax and can't really sit. So find your balance and please watch your breathing follow your breathing in a natural way and that will calm your mind and be very flexible and open and please endure Sat Sri Akal.

[43:46]

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