New Year's Eve of this year and I think it's been a good year. Feels like it's been a good year even though a lot of undesirable things have happened. Also a lot of good things have happened. So I feel our year is going toward winter. Our feeling of our practice is going toward winter. Hibernation or hiding under the snow. And next year I look forward to as a very progressive stimulating year.

[01:05]

And I would like to see us concentrate on a creative side of our practice. Next year, I'm going to introduce a practice day or beginner Sashin which is something new for people who have been practicing for a while but don't know quite how to get into practice and it will be like have somewhat the characteristic of Sashin but there won't be so much Zazen and there will be Oryoki instruction and questions about Zazen and some discussion about practice and points in practice.

[02:11]

It is a kind of orientation seminar and also an introduction to our Sashin and to just kind of clearing up things for people. meeting people in a certain way, new people. And, but it also be a good practice for people who, for regular people, older students. It'll be a shorter day ending, start maybe at 6 and end at 4.30. And be good for people who don't have so much time. you know, or a little timid about sitting sushin, or who want to know more about our practice. And even older people, you know, who need to reorient themselves to practice.

[03:17]

Sometimes you forget things or you find out there are things that you never knew, even though you've been practicing for a long time. So a way of kind of renewing your practice for older people and an introduction for new people. Because I would like to stimulate some practice for new people which is more open than we've been in the past. In the past we didn't either, we didn't make such an open door. People have to tried pretty hard to get in, actually. But I want to change that a little bit and be a little more helpful to newer people and try something different.

[04:22]

And also, I would like us to have a kind of progressive attitude in two realms. One realm is the realm of women's practice and the other realm is the realm of psychology. One thing to really pay attention to women's practice in a positive way or maybe have some women seminars on women's practice or maybe a women's sashim, whatever people think is appropriate. And also in the realm of psychology to maybe invite some people. There are a lot of psychologists in Zen. Psychologists, psychiatrists, people in the area of psychology within Zen, and I mean, in our immediate sanghas of Zen Center, enough actually to have a kind of little conference or seminar on practice and psychology.

[05:40]

Zen has always been the friend of science, but... And within Buddhism, psychology has played a big part. Abhidhamma is called Buddhist psychology. But the Buddhists are a little jealous of their psychology. They don't want it invaded by Western psychology so much, even though they appreciate it. But I think that the Buddhists, or the Zen people especially, need to open up more to Western psychology and make friends with it because it won't go away. We need to come to terms with psychology and find out how best to make some

[06:48]

to see where we are with it. And there's certainly a lot of potential available to us. So I would very much like us to pursue that and to pursue the women's side of practice in a very positive way so that people don't feel they have to go someplace else to take care of that. So I was wondering what kind of ideas you might have about that and what other ideas you might have, what other things you think we might deal with, or should be dealing with.

[08:04]

So, I'll give you a minute to think about it. Oh, you don't need a minute. Well, we suggested earlier in the year that we would have a practice day in which we would do some non-conditional things, maybe some play, or something like this. I'd like to see at least the work period replaced, maybe at some time in session, with something different. Something along the lines of cooperation and non-cooperation, but not necessarily Like, basketball? Yeah, or we could make a quilt. Well, that's work. That's work, yeah. You mean some non-traditional work, like... volleyball?

[09:12]

We play good volleyball, you know. I'd like to see a practice day where we do a mindfulness seminar like the one that Catherine Donos did with us and spend the whole day doing mindful... not the whole day, but do a schedule that alternates Zazen with some of those mindfulness exercises that she did and some... it may be a work period where we try and be very... especially mindful It just orients the whole day to a mindfulness training. Well, I understand what you're saying. But the problem I have with that is that Sashin is mindfulness practice. And what we need to do, you know, is to realize that that's what that is.

[10:13]

But by having a one-day Sashin, that's why it's so, because by having a one-day Sashin where we do those exercises that she did for part of the machine and also talk about mindfulness instead of lecture, perhaps. Just orient that machine specifically to mindfulness. I think that might be a nice boost to the mindfulness aspect of the machine. I see. Yeah. That's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. Laura? So you're thinking when there are teachers around to invite them, Asian teachers?

[11:26]

Well, there were some people that said they were going to come, but I haven't heard from them. The book that I have read this year that has just been the most mind-opening to me is Ken Wilber's No Boundaries. It was with such a Zen approach and such a Buddhist approach that he had, and I was just wondering if there are any of those transpersonal psychologists around that we could include in our day, or even perhaps have a study group to read that book.

[12:45]

It would be a very gathering experience. And another thing I would love to do is have more outside of service in some sashim to work more on chanting. That's one of the things that we would do in the beginner's sashim. That's one of the things that Definitely you do, it would be the work on chanting. Everything you said sounds very interesting. I would like to pursue the idea of just finding out who the psychologists and the therapists in the Zen community are, for starters.

[13:48]

I agree with you. I think there are a large number and that many don't know each other. And that would be very interesting just to find out who they are. And then that might not lead anywhere and that also might lead somewhere. I think it might. Because I think that I meet them from time to time. I think most of them feel somewhat estranged in their professional life from practice. Well, I suspect there's an enormous variation. Yeah, there's an enormous variation. There are... Two sides. One side is what you are in your life is important and has a lot of meaning.

[14:57]

And the other side is that when you come to practice, you forget that side completely. And if we remember that, then we can be open to that. And I think that's the place where... that's a sticky place. And I think that's the place where most people who are in psychology have a hard time getting recognition or having that recognized in Zen practice because when you... When you get together to practice, you put all of your background aside, pretty much. So, it's important to do that, but it's also important to recognize and to get, integrate.

[15:59]

So those two things kind of, those two sides of how to do that is a problem for us. I think that's the problem that we're working with a lot in practice. how to include it, how to forget it, and how to include it. As it happens, there's going to be an excellent teacher who teaches on eco-psychology in Buddhism, which is that eco-psychology is really the basis of Western psychology. I think we should investigate who people are.

[17:07]

What I would like to do is to invite people that are closer to us first. before we invite people that are, you know, farther away, even though they may have some reputation, to invite people that, you know, are in the area and who are practicing Buddhists, to start there, so we feel more, have more familiar ground. Now, are you talking about just in Zen or in Buddhism in general? Well, I would think that Zen would be Not necessarily just in Zen. Jack Kornfield is a good person. He practices Buddhism and psychology. He's somebody I know and feel comfortable with and has good insight. interest me is our vow of saving all sentient beings and how we manifest that in our relationships with the community.

[18:38]

Psychology is interesting, but it seems, again, it seems kind of hinayana, our concerns about people down the block. And I remember, you know, someone like, if there's someone like Thich Nhat Hanh here, here that we could speak to, maybe someone like Akin Roshi. Speak to? Well, someone who is more involved politically, who's Buddhist, Yeah, I feel that way too.

[19:54]

I think that a number of people have left the Sangha in the last year or two. And I see them as being two groups. One of them is, I think, a group of people who have been wanting to do more politically. And there was a lot of talk a year or two ago about how we could be more politically involved. a number of those people left. And the other group of people who have left, I think, are women who indeed are looking for more of a woman's practice. And it would be very nice if we could reach out in both of those directions if we can. The problem, from my experience, you know, is that it's hard enough just to get the does in. But that's hard enough. And we have to know what our limitations are.

[20:55]

And some people would just have to find, you know, their interest in other places. And if we try to satisfy everyone's interest, you know, I can hear it all burgeoning, you know, all these interests burgeoning. And it sounds great, you know, it sounds wonderful. you have to know what your limitations are. Otherwise, you know, I can just see us making appointments, you know, all over the place and going to meetings and having seminars and meetings, da-da-da, you know, and then we all... So, what I'm talking about is, the two things I mentioned, I think, are things that are the most important things in our that are facing us. One is women, women's practice, and the other is psychology. Those are very insistent.

[21:56]

And as far as social activism, I think that's great. But I think we have to, each one of us has to do that, somehow be inspired to do that. But when we tried social activism, it was just too much for everybody to do it together. It's too much, because you just don't have that kind of time. Just sitting zazen together is hard enough to do. I'm not saying we shouldn't do something, but I think we have to be very careful how we, the kind of pressures we put on people. Bill? A lot of folks in the social action, with some interest in social action, that were initially here and then left, ended up, as I understand it, not doing anything, eventually, anyway, not pursuing it for very long, because of personal, interpersonal problems that came up.

[23:10]

And that relates back to your wanting some psychology here, you know, some interest in discussion and so on in the realm of psychology. And I favor it too, but not in some ideational way like volleyball, you know, where one side of the Zen bell throws ideas back and forth to the other, but in a way that takes us with each other, you know, and works things out in that way. You know, we all have lots of wonderful ideas, but it's very easy to Keep things at some distance with those ideas. Keep our relations with each other at some distance with ideas. I just want to make a case for doing something, if we take it up, that puts us in with each other in a more direct way. Something like the radical therapy workshops, the medical psychology workshops. gleaned from what you're saying is that you're not interested in theoretical psychology and Buddhism.

[24:19]

What you're interested in is us being involved in a workshop. Workshops with each other. Well, workshops is one way of doing it. Or psychologically, working with each other in a psychological way. Well, just getting to know each other better and feel more freedom to be direct with each other. So there's not so much left out. gathers us together more, rather than what scatters us.

[25:21]

And sometimes ideas can be terrifically One thing I get from what Bill is saying, and it's something I agree very much with, is that psychology isn't just the study of ourselves. It's the study of each other, too. And I think that by doing the kind of thing that Bill is suggesting, it's like learning more about each other so that we can relate better to each other.

[26:23]

And I think you put it very well. I think it's very well said. We would feel more comfortable around each other if we could be more direct. We can be more direct if we understand the other person's point of view. If we spend some time maybe trying to walk in their shoes a little bit. And maybe, I think that there are ways of doing that. Like that radical psychology thing was, I think, helpful in that way. And there are probably other things too like that. So I guess I endorse your idea, Bill. I'd like to hear some ideas about a woman's practice as separate from the whole science practice and why the need for that might annoy. Well, what I've always thought about it is that the practice has always been dominated by men's psychology and been controlled by men.

[27:38]

pretty much, and male needs, you know, done in a male, and the structure has been a kind of male-oriented structure. So to give women the opportunity to find out how they would do that, you know, it's not to separate men and women, but somehow to sanctioned or helped women to figure that out. Because the complaint is always, well, this is a male thing, just the way we do everything. It's not the way women would do it. It's the way men do it. So to give women an opportunity to find out what their way is, that would take a long time to actually do. But at least... yes.

[28:45]

Well, I'm so glad... I hesitate to really say anything because I'm not able to enter into the various sessions. But nevertheless, I come often enough to have an identity here. And I'm so glad someone brought this up other than me about the women's practice. I come from... my mother was an armed suffragist and helped hit the men. constitution of women to vote, so I have a strong feeling about women's identity. But it would seem to me, in Buddhism, what we're trying to do is to find our common humanity. And somehow or other, to separate the women and the men seems to me to go against the whole idea of obliterating distinctions. We're trying to get rid of our... we're trying to detect ourselves from our ego. Why then identify ourselves with our femininity or masculinity? and not be swept into this larger concept. I think we all agree with you.

[29:46]

But in order to do that, you know, in order to actually be able to do that, it may be necessary to give women some autonomy. Not give, you know, there's no way to give it, but for women to have some autonomy in order to be able to feel free to do that. In other words, in order to come to, it's like a marriage, you know, to come to a marriage you have to feel your own autonomy. People don't, but the best way is to feel your own autonomy. You know, this is my choice. I'm doing it because I have the freedom to do it this way. And make some, you know, I'm not just agreeing to his rules, you know, but we can do it together. So, in order to have it, you have to feel your own sense of autonomy.

[30:48]

So, that's why I think that women... I'm not saying that women should divide in order to be divisive, but just in order to feel themselves more clearly, their autonomy more clearly, so they can... so that men and women can join together in a more equal feeling, a more equal feeling. Otherwise there's always this nagging feeling that even though we're equal, it's really dominated by man's way because we don't know what a woman's way is exactly. You've got to have that opportunity to find it out. Don't we do that by working together rather than separating ourselves? To a certain extent, yes. I think this is a very important point. And I think that if we have women's practice with the idea that it is not to set women aside and put a female in the second group, but perhaps to have some way that in our forms and in the things that we do,

[32:07]

that the contribution of a woman's way of thinking about things and doing things could be added. For instance, we might have a session one time where you could consult with two or three women and have the forum be just what we always do I mean, I'm very, very reluctant to change a lot of our form because I think we could just disappear. But to have some idea of the way that women think about that the work should be done or that the meals should be eaten or something like that that would give that side of us that can contribute to men's lives too.

[33:09]

We actually do that. You know, it changes back and forth, but we do. In the past times, it's been Maile and Ann Marie and somebody else with all women who are running the city. And that influence is very strong. But it could be more so. Yeah, it could be more so. But I agree with Kathleen. I think whatever we do as far as defining women's practice, it should be thought of from the point of view of how it brings us together as people and not how it sets us apart. Ultimately, I agree too. Absolutely. The only thing is, if it's needed, then we should do the other thing. If it's necessary for women to get together to find themselves, then that's fine to do.

[34:20]

If it's not necessary, yeah. Just continuing, I think women's practice is everybody's practice, just as men's practice is everybody's practice. But the idea of having a women's and a men's practice is just clarifying a more... it's making everybody's practice richer, I think. And clearly the women's group keeps going and going and going. There's obviously a need for women to talk to each other and clarify their position. But it's certainly everybody's practice. Now, in the city now, a large proportion of the people who give practice discussion are, in fact, women. And one of the difficulties of having a rather small sangha is that that's harder to do. But I agree with Megan that I think if we're going to really make a kind of serious pitch, then we do have to have some woman available, I think, for practice talk.

[35:25]

And you're over, I mean, it seems as if some kind of trade would be possible since you're giving them quite a lot of time, the folks across the bay. Well, I'd also need somebody from here. I think that would be even better. Did you have somebody to stay with? No, I was just rubbing my nose, but actually I could say something. You can just continue to rub your nose. You had something to say. I would like to say something, even if it was just rubbing my nose. Yeah, I think when I think of a woman's way, a man's way, it seems like some men would enjoy doing it the woman's way, as well as some women enjoy doing it the man's way.

[36:36]

And being able to open that up and not make it a separate thing. Thank you. that it really, in some ways, is a political question. And that it really, because it's coming really out of a context of where our vote is right now, in Berkeley, in this country, et cetera. And that's, so I somehow feel that we don't, if we look at it as psychological, apart from the political aspect, it's not meaningful. And so the men don't get, you know, the men's group is not happening. So that seems unfortunate. So I would think the women would almost insist that the men have to do something. Otherwise, it's not meaningful for the community.

[37:41]

I'm a little confused. I think maybe someone can explain and be honest. I heard a woman priest from the city, Linda, that's her name, twice. And there was a woman, a Buddhist nun, who spoke also last year once. And I didn't see any difference in the way they talked or approached the subject, no mannerism aside, from the way he talked or the way a man might have talked. There were a lot of individual differences, but I didn't see any sex-mixed differences. And so what am I missing? That's a good question. Susan? Well, I have problems around having a woman's vision because I don't like to think separately. I don't think it's so much a question of what you're missing.

[38:49]

I think it's what women are missing when there aren't women out there. I think sometimes they feel left out. And I don't know how much I'd favor an all-women session, but I would really favor having women in practice at the hospital. You wouldn't favor it, or you would? I would favor it. Yeah. Practice sessions with women. Yeah. I'm not quite sure from Ken's statement what men's ways and what women's ways But I do know, for me personally, I feel much easier talking to women than to men. Yeah. So you need both. I think we all need both. Yeah. I guess I also am a little confused about, you know, when I think about, when I think about

[39:52]

the forms of Buddhism and men's way and women's way, I guess what really seems to me to be the issue is how do men and women react to the forms of Buddhism differently, in a different way. For me, that's a different question. And how would I do it differently? I think the way I might say, do oryoki differently, or whatever, isn't significant. It's just an individual difference. but how I might relate to eating in a zendo, in a formal or a yoki meal might be very different because as a woman my relationship to food is probably different than men's relationship to food and issues of eating and weight control and all that kind of stuff. And I somehow have a feeling that this kind of difference in reaction is something that can't really be experienced so easily that for me to experience the way a man relates to it or reacts to it, I don't know if I could do that in, say, a Sushin setting.

[41:08]

I might be able to get some understanding of it if there were some kind of discussion of it. And I've been interested for a long time in having When the men's group first formed, I thought, gee, it would be great to get the men's group and the women's group together sometime and talk about what we've been talking about and how we feel about each other. And the reaction I got from people was, well, wait until the men's group has been going for a while longer, and then maybe they'll be ready for that or something like that. And then, of course, the men's group sort of died. I don't know what happened to it, but I'm still really interested in that. I'm still really interested in... I'm much more interested in getting the men and the women together to talk about issues of how we feel about maybe sexism or relating to each other in the practice, you know, relating to each other when we're in the Zendo and, you know,

[42:19]

doing the forms together, and being in sashimi together, and working together, and doing dishes together, and all the rest of it, than I am in changing any forms for a woman's way or a man's way. That's my opinion about it. Well, there's a lot of stuff here. Yeah, I really opened up. But, you know, it's the end of the year. Why is it Pandora's box? Whose box should it be? Joe's box? Okay, well, we have a lot on our hands. I really appreciate all the things that everybody said.

[43:23]

And see you next year. I think, is this all done Monday morning? Yes. For those who already went. Okay.

[43:37]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ