This morning, this is the fourth day of our, I think it's the fourth day, of our five-day sanchin, which brings our practice period to a culmination. And tomorrow, at 3.30, we're having the shuso, so-called shuso ceremony, where the people in the practice period and people who have been attending Seshin will question the head monk, Mr. Rosenbaum. as to his understanding. So I want to invite all of the people who are in the practice period to come and support the shuso in that way. The last time I gave a talk, I was talking about the question of Seigen Gyoshi to the sixth ancestor, Huineng, and the question of Nangako Eijo to the sixth ancestor, Huineng.

[01:41]

These two leading disciples of the sixth ancestor in China, the Tang dynasty, questioned and how they understood their practice, the meaning of practice and enlightenment, according to the understanding of their teacher, the sixth ancestor, and how that has come down to us through all of the ancestors from that time and permeates our own practice. I'm going to continue with that today. But first, I have a couple of other things that I want to, leading up to that, as a kind of introduction. We have a saying called no gaining mind, which Suzuki Roshi, our teacher,

[02:46]

were presented as one of the very fundamental aspects of our practice. So there's often confusion about what that means, the meaning of no gaining mind. No gaining mind means that you should not strive for something in vain. Vanity means something which you strive for, which is an illusion. So you shouldn't go chasing around illusions. You should find out what is really fundamental. And that's what our practice is about. settling down on what is really fundamental and not chasing after illusions.

[03:54]

So, gaining mind means chasing after illusions, like trying to grasp enlightenment as an illusion, the illusory idea of enlightenment. instead of chasing after the illusory idea of enlightenment, to simply settle down in enlightenment, which is called practice. Well, that can be expanded. Sometimes we say, well, what about when we go out to work, you know, and we're working in the world, a vanity, actually. We chase after illusory goals which seem real.

[04:58]

So we go to work every day and we have stages in our work practice, and we want our paycheck, and we have our houses, and we have our families, and all this societal harmony has to work somehow. So how do you practice in that society with no gaining mind? That's the great koan of our practice. How do you do that? How do you do something for its own sake? So within our life we have goals, but almost all the goals will end.

[06:04]

one way or another. So what is the reality within those goals? What is the reality within our striving? How do we actually practice one thing at a time? how do we practice, there's something called expressing yourself fully. And most, when we say express yourself fully, it sounds like it means do whatever you want. But in our, the meaning of express yourself fully means that whatever you're doing, you should express yourself fully. It doesn't mean to do some extraordinary thing.

[07:08]

Simply expressing yourself fully, sweeping the floor, is an extraordinary thing. If you really know how to express yourself fully, sweeping the floor, it's an extraordinary thing. We don't have to do anything extraordinary in order to express ourselves. But there's an enormous variety of things that we do. I can't tell you what to do and what not to do. But whatever it is that we do, we express ourself fully without discriminating whether this is a significant thing or an insignificant thing. So that everything in our life becomes significant. And at the same time, nothing special. This is how we bring forth enlightenment in our daily activity. This is called no gaining mind and expressing yourself fully so that there's nothing left behind.

[08:20]

It's also called burning yourself up completely like a with no trace left behind, so that each moment is its own discrete form of life. It's independent from the past, independent of the future, and simply just this. This is the meaning of our practice. It's so simple. Nothing extra and nothing fancy, but it's the hardest thing to do. Hardest place to be is here, and the hardest thing to do is this. Do you know Sawaki Kodo was a... He died in 1950.

[09:32]

1964, I think, just about the year that I started to practice, he was considered the most prominent monk, Soto Zen monk in Japan. He was called Homeless Kodo. He didn't have a temple of his own, although he was considered by most people who knew anything about practice as the most mature monk. And Uchiyama Roshi was his disciple, main disciple. Also, Uchiyama Roshi talks a lot about made commentary on Suwaki Roshi's sayings. Deshi Maru, who brought Soto Zen to Europe, was one of his disciples.

[10:48]

So I just want to Miju, two of Sabaki Roshi's sayings, which are my favorite sayings, I think, of Sabaki Roshi. First he says, what is the use of doing zazen? There is no use in doing zazen. Until this penetrates your thick skull and you are really doing zazen that is of no use, It is really of no use. And the second one is, the Buddha way is not to be distracted. It is to become your role to the bone.

[11:54]

This attitude is called samadhi or shikantaza. We don't eat food to take a shit. We don't take a shit to make manure. But in recent years, most people think that you go to high school in order to go to college, and you go to college in order to get a good job. I could comment on that for a long time. We just do the thing to do the thing. If we only did the thing to do the thing, we'd be much happier. My teachers used to say, don't sacrifice this moment for some moment in the future. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't work for your future, but what you're doing in this moment is the most important thing there is. But we think, if I work hard now, my future life will be good.

[13:00]

That's true, but if you work hard now, you should just work hard now. It's very interesting, when you go to college, which I didn't do, almost everyone I know who went to college did not get a job doing what they studied in college. Except for my son, who said, what a waste of time, all this college. And yet, he got a job doing something that he learned in college. The only person I know Exactly. That's his life's goal. Now to the main subject. I'm going to present again Sagan's question to the Sixth Ancestry.

[14:26]

The Soto school traces its lineage to Seigen. The Rinzai lineage traces its lineage to Nangaku. So I'm going to talk about mostly Nangaku's question because I talked about Seigen's last time, but I want to talk about Seigen's question again. today. Sagan asked the sixth ancestor, how can we practice without falling into class distinctions or without falling into stages? And the patriarch said, well, what have you been practicing all this time? And Sagan replied, I don't even practice the supreme truth. And the patriarch asked, well, into what class have you fallen? Class is a funny word, but stage.

[15:30]

Sagan said, since I don't even practice the supreme truth, how is it possible to fall into any stages? And the ancestor said, just like this, just like this, protect and maintain it carefully. Like this means, Just do. Just doing. You know, the Buddha is called the Tathagata. Tathagata. Tathagata means, it means either just come or just go. The thus come one or the thus gone one. This word just is what everything turns on. Just this. So when you reduce everything, when you analyze everything away, you come up with just this. And you can't say any more.

[16:34]

This is the irreducible fact, if you want to call it a fact. The irreducible reality is just this. That's what the whole practice turns on. So no stages means we're not practicing to get from delusion to enlightenment, some idea of enlightenment. Enlightenment is beyond delusion and enlightenment. Delusion and enlightenment are a duality. So we think that if we weren't harmed, we'll get from delusion to enlightenment. But enlightenment is just our nature, so where are we getting to? If you have an idea of enlightenment, that's delusion. So it's delusion chasing its tail around, looking for itself.

[17:42]

Only when you stop is it there. And if you read stories about enlightenment experiences, they're almost always, I stopped and there it was. When I stopped, there it was. Now I'm going to talk about Nangaku Ejo, who was the other disciple of the sixth ancestor. Zen Master Nangaku Dai E, there are a lot of different names, you know, there are posthumous names and honorific names, so don't get confused.

[18:51]

I think ehair means enlightened, great enlightened person. Visited the sixth ancestor and the ancestor asked, where did you come from? There's another one of those stories about where did you come from? If you look in the Koan literature, so many of the stories are where did you come from? Which is a trick question. So Nangaka replied, I came from Mount Susan, where the national teacher, Aon, lives. So this is a kind of naive question. I mean, naive answer. The ancestors asking him, what is his understanding? Not where he came from last. So the patriarch asked, what is it that comes like this? He's giving him a present.

[20:07]

He's saying, well, what is it that comes like this? and Nangaku never forgot the question. Couldn't answer it, of course. And after he had practiced with the ancestor for eight years, he finally understood the question. So sometimes I give a person a question to deal with. Well, I came here last week. Here's my answer." And I said, keep dealing with the question. I don't want the person to answer the question. When I gave a person a question, I wanted them to deal with that question for the rest of their life. I don't care what answer you come up with. The answer you come up with should be demonstrated in your life.

[21:09]

should not just be an answer. We can answer questions very well, very cleverly. And it seems like you get the right answer, but then you go about your business in the same way as usual. So the answer should come through. The question should be something that stays with us for a long, long time and helps to mature us. So I have questions, you know, or statements that my teacher made for me, which I don't expect to come up with an answer, a nice juicy answer, but I use that as a, it's just something that I practice with all the time, and I don't want to answer it,

[22:13]

It keeps me, it keeps maturing me. It's like swallowing a rock, or maybe not a rock, but a hot lead ball that I have to keep dealing with all the time. So, you know, when we have our problems, you know, we want to solve our problems. But the problem is this wonderful thing that we practice with that helps us to practice. If we don't have that, we don't have anything to practice with. So what we call our problem is really our practice opportunity. That's why in practice there are no problems. We say there are problems, there are no obstacles. Because every obstacle is simply an opportunity to practice. But it's hard for us to see it like that.

[23:17]

And when I hear people complaining about their problems, I realize they haven't quite got that yet. Zen master Nangako Dai visited the sixth ancestor and asked, and the ancestor asked, where did you come from? I came from Mount Susan, where the national teacher lives. The ancestor asked, well, what is it that has come like this? Nangako never forgot the question. After he had practiced with the ancestor for eight years, it's a pretty short time, he finally understood the question. Then he said to the ancestor, when I visited you, you asked me, what is it that has come like this? Now I understand. And the ancestor said, well, how do you understand it? Nangako said, if I try to point out one thing, I go astray. The ancestor asked, then is there practice in enlightenment or not?

[24:22]

And Nangako said, It's incorrect to say that there is no practice in enlightenment. I mean, there is practice in enlightenment, but we should not defile them, or they can't be defiled. They can be, but you can say it either way. The ancestors said, non-defilement, that is the thing the Buddhas and ancestors have maintained. You are like this, I am like this, and all the ancestors in India are also like this. So this is the story. So it's incorrect to say that there is no practice and enlightenment, but we should not defile them. Usually it says they can't be defiled, which is a little harder to get, but somehow it makes more of nonsense. More sense.

[25:27]

Defilement means separation. That's the meaning of defilement, is separation. In the introduction to Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Suzuki Roshi says, it's not so difficult. The reason why it's difficult to practice is not because of the pain in your legs. The reason why it's difficult to practice is it's hard to keep our practice pure. It's hard to practice pure practice. And what is pure practice? Pure practice means non-discrimination or non-separation. which is what he's saying here. In other words, to separate enlightenment from practice. This is Dogen Zenji's, Dogen Zenji's practice turns on this understanding, and our practice turns on this understanding.

[26:34]

Instead of running after enlightenment, we put our effort into practice. And when we put our effort into practice, enlightenment is there. There's a saying, one moment of practice is one moment of enlightenment. One day of practice is one day of enlightenment. But since we have this idea of what enlightenment is, We wonder about that. What's the relationship between enlightenment and happiness? Happiness, they're both just an idea. They're both just an idea. I don't know how I'm always doing okay.

[28:05]

If your teacher was in front of you, would you say that? My teacher's always in front of me. You're in front of me now. Somebody said to me, how come you always have so much confidence? Well, I'm always OK. People say, how are you? OK. Every day, someone says, how are you? Oh, I'm OK. What other way is there to be? Not okay. Well, not okay is okay, too. I'm not okay, but it's okay.

[29:12]

Dogen Zenji talked about non-defilement in his fast book called Yui-butsu, Yo-butsu, Yui-butsu, Yo-butsu, but only a Buddha and a Buddha. And he says this, which is very interesting. So when the supreme awareness is embodied in a person, that person is called a Buddha. When a Buddha dwells in this supreme awareness, this is called supreme awareness. know this way are fools. The fundamental characteristic of this way is non-defilement. Non-defilement is not trying to force yourself to stop doing things such as discriminating, seeking for something, or escaping from something. Non-defilement is not purposely trying to fabricate a state of non-discrimination.

[30:22]

Non-defilement can never be discriminated, adopted, or rejected. So when you go to work, you have to make all these decisions, you have to bring forth a discriminating mind, you have to try to get something. This is human nature. I think there's a difference between monastic life and worldly life, so-called. In monastic life, you can let go of a lot of things. Somebody cooks for you, somebody does this for you. It's a community that has shared, everything is shared. But in worldly life, everyone has to kind of fend for themselves in a way, and it's a different kind of, different life.

[31:32]

And so we naturally have to do things that we're kind of forced into a situation where we have to have a gaining mind. Pretty hard to live in this society without some form of gaining mind. So we should not get stuck in thinking that gaining mind is the only, does not include, I mean, non-gaining mind also includes gaining mind. In other words, in order to live in this society, we have to defile ourselves. But we should know that's what we're doing. Well, they're the same and different.

[32:44]

The context is different, but the attitude is the same. The attitude is the same, but the context is different, and so the context being different, you may not recognize the sameness. You're not compromising your principles, but you may. You may have to. So, you know, this is why it's hard. Once you really take up practice, then your life becomes harder in a way, until it becomes easier. becomes harder. One has to have a very strong practice in order to really see through the illusions, the delusions and illusions.

[34:08]

You have to have a really strong understanding and strong practice. This is why, you know, my ideal is that a person would go to the monastery and embody the practice, and then when they come out, they know how to embody the practice in the world. But that doesn't often happen. That's my big disappointment. That's not emphasized, should be. And I said to the people who were staying there all summer, and they would say it's difficult once you get along with one another. And I said, well, try interacting and working with people where you're not all there.

[35:10]

But I'm just saying, there's a lot of stress and strain and people are not being too mindful. And everyone's doing it. So, you know, no matter where people are, they all have the same problems. Whether you're in the corporate world or in the monastic world, you still have the same problems. People still have the same problems with each other. But, in one context, you know these are the problems. In the other context, you may not be aware that these are the problems or how to deal with them. So, in one context, people are making an effort to deal with those problems. and the other, they're simply trying to get through the day, right?

[36:32]

This is true, but I find it helpful for my practice to approach each person with the attitude that they're doing the best they can, that they really genuinely are doing the best they can, and I just think it's important to do that. I agree with you. I would say they're doing the best they know how, but I wouldn't say that's the best they can. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, it's subtle. I've always said that myself. Tamar? Yes, that's right. So you find the same. the same problems because we're all human, no matter what situation we're in.

[37:55]

So the world is just a bigger monastery. It's true. The world is just a bigger, a big, if you see the world as a big monastery with a lot of animals that you don't know. What? But there's still a problem because when you die, then you see how it really was. And then it was, did you do, did I do this? Don't look back. Don't look back.

[38:57]

You know there's a wonderful, in one of Suzuki Goshi's lectures, He talks about a woman somewhere in China, he said, but maybe in India, or South America, or North Africa, where a woman is walking along with a big pot of water on her head, and the big pot of water falls down. over her back and smashes on the pavement, and she just keeps walking. If you look around, you're lost. It's the pillar of salt.

[40:02]

Yeah, it's the pillar, it turned into a pillar of salt. including Ronald Reagan.

[41:21]

Including Ronald Reagan. Well, you know, this is true. Very true. You know, There are two levels. There's the level of non-discrimination and the level of good and bad, right and wrong, and so forth. And we're usually focused on right and wrong, good and bad. But when somebody dies, it reverts to the fundamental level. You know, it's like time heals wounds, not all of them, but, you know, and then you come to, you forget, or you're not so focused on what happened as to who the person is in a fundamental way, in a non-discriminating way.

[42:33]

So I think we would rather honor Jack in a non-discriminating way than in a discriminating way, to say, well this is the good and this was the bad and so forth. I don't think, I don't see that as bad, you know, just, this is what happened, that's all. Total dynamic working. Yeah, just totally dynamically working. go back to your statement that I'm okay, you're okay. And I think that's actually a vow to live that way. And that we try and practice this here in the midst of the incredible dualities of having meals cooked and served and cleaned up and, you know, yard work done and oriyoki sewn and all the projects and plumbing repairs

[43:35]

that I'm very grateful for that, I guess, spaciousness that people offer each other, that you're okay. Because when I get it, it's really nice to have somebody else remember it. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. Linda? The purity of defilement, that's a mess. Who said that? I did. Who said that? I said it after coming from the other mountain. What exactly did you say?

[44:45]

What exactly did you say? Purity? I mean, if you say purity and defilement... Did I say that? Yeah. You said, keep your practice pure? Did you also say that? Oh, I see. He didn't use the word defilement. He said it's hard to keep, it's not hard to practice because of the pain in our leg. It's hard to practice because it's hard to keep our practice pure. This one, yeah. We're getting kind of mixed up with our people. Yeah. What's purity? Purity is non-duality. So, defilement is called separation.

[45:51]

Separating something that should not be separated. Separating something that should not be separated. It could be, you know, but that's the term that's used. So it may be misleading, but it may not. If I mislead you, I apologize. Thank you. And I think when you say, I'm okay, it's not like I'm great.

[47:02]

It's just because I keep working at this, I'm okay. And I ran across this saying in the Eihei Kotoku a while ago. The main thing of practice is not to go to bed before your teacher. to me that says, just keep that question in front of you, keep his thought in front of us, and we'll be okay, even when we're blowing it. Well, I think that there's a lot to what you say. I always keep my teachers in front of me, and then I can see what my mistakes are, what my problems are, what my faults are, and so forth, and that's always right there in front of me, but it's all the stuff that I have to work with, and I'm very grateful for it.

[48:07]

Well, it's not that there are less problems, it's just that they're easier to deal with. I don't know if that's the right word. in the beginning, when you start sitting Zazen, it's really hard for most people, not for everyone, but for most people, just getting your body and mind attuned to sitting, right? And you go to your first Sashin, it's so hard, and maybe for a long time, it becomes, it's really very hard to get through the Sashin, but then, when you begin to realize that you're not being victimized by your difficulties, you don't allow yourself to be victimized, the victim of your difficulties, then it gets easier because you're accepting everything, no matter how difficult it is.

[50:01]

And then it just becomes easier and easier because you're more open and more able to absorb and to accept. So, and the more you're more able to do that, the more joy you have in your practice, regardless of whether it's difficult or not. So that's kind of like, it's easier, but that doesn't mean that you have less pain in your life. When you're talking about problems and difficulties, sometimes it sounds like, well, there are these problems and difficulties that others voice on us, rather than, you know, in practicing understanding common effects and understanding the fact that everything I participate in is different. Oh, yes. I never had a difficulty that someone voiced it on me. But I just, just the way you were talking, you know, basically,

[51:05]

you know, as I practice more, the more I see that I'm creating the whole picture and, you know, so if I just stop creating it, so it's not, these are kind of part of a process in which I very much am playing. Well, I am the player. I am the player, I'm the star. Of course, I'm always creating my own problems. Nobody ever voices any problems on me. So, then it's okay, because there isn't anybody to blame. Well, of course not. You don't want to blame yourself, so... You don't want to blame others, and you don't want to blame yourself. Right. There's nothing, there's no one to blame. There's no one to blame. What fun is that? That's right. Is life still worth living? Jake? When you say you're okay, But there is some room for improvement.

[52:05]

Maybe. I hear that the OK is the twist on, you know, you're perfect. Like there's some room for improvement. I like the OK better than the perfect. Yeah. Well, yes, you know. But the reason we use the word perfect is because we give it a different meaning. So a realm of discrimination. Perfect means the opposite of what we usually think of as perfect, that's why we use the word. We don't use it to mean what it usually means, it means what we usually think of as imperfect is perfect. out in the city for quite a while.

[53:08]

And yesterday, during construction time, I think it was yesterday, I heard some screaming right outside the street. And I was inside. And so I There's a woman in a wheelchair, a mother yelling at her daughter, telling her how ungrateful she was and how unworthy she was. It's really on and on and on and on. And I felt a little paralyzed. And then I just watched them leave.

[54:23]

I didn't run out the door. And I cried afterwards. And then as I was sitting, I was really grateful. I was really grateful because for the last couple of days, I realized that I was in my own reign. But I still don't know what that's called, the practicing of it, but I'm wondering if you can talk about anything else. Well, there are several things. One is, everyone has their own destiny to work with. And the incident is just one dot

[55:30]

in the world of suffering all around us. And I can remember my teacher Suzuki Roshi saying, when the whole world is suffering, There's so much suffering in the world, and we're sitting here in our painful, with our painful body in Sashin. You should be grateful for what little pain you have. What it is compared to the pain in the rest of the world is very little, but when we're doing this, it seems like the whole world is right, the whole world of pain is right there in our body. So in some sense, we're sharing the pain of the world, but how do we share the pain of the world without contributing to its suffering?

[56:44]

I'm going to close, but I just have to say this, that this is the world of suffering. It will not change. It will not become the world where there's no suffering of human beings, because just being in this body creates that. This is the practice of how to, within our difficulties and our pain and our whatever, body, to be free from suffering and to help the world, not to eliminate the suffering that will always be happening, but how to realize the reality of how to be free. You can't give it to somebody.

[59:44]

Everyone has to find it for themselves. But we create the opportunity for people to practice that, to come to that place. Everyone has to come to it by themselves. And we're just creating that opportunity. But if you're going to go out and change the world, as my teacher said, if you try to catch the tail of a comet, people will pity you. So we light up the part of the world where we are. Just do the thing that we have to do where we are. It's so easy to get discouraged and distraught because you can't do anything about the suffering in the world.

[60:47]

The more you do over here, the more it happens over there. You try to put out this fire, and the fire is going up over here. You put out this fire, and the fire comes up over here. We're living in a kind of volcanic environment. That's the way it is, but we can do something in our corner of the world, which has influence all over the world. You know, it's very interesting. When I was a beatnik in North Beach, you know, Jack Kerouac and Ginsburg and all these guys, you know, were young kids my age running around. And lo and behold, they have this tremendous influence all over the world. Who would have known that at that time? And this practice, which is Buddhism in America, is creating influence all over the world.

[61:54]

This is a kind of power spot. the Bay Area because it keeps producing all the changes that are really happening in the world. So many of the significant changes that are happening in the liberal part of the world are germinating here in the Bay Area. So we live in this unique place at this time. This is where that's happening and it's been happening in both art and religion and society, food, everything. You know, the whole, in the environmental awareness, it's all happened here.

[63:03]

So this practice has influence all over the world, and because we can't see through the haze, you know, it's hard to see that sometimes, but it's happened. Those beings are numberless. The way I translate it in my head is, my vow is touching all in each. One moment at a time, one person at a time. It is all there, in a certain sense, and it's all I can do. And it's not enough.

[63:53]

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