So I'm gonna talk today about acceptance. What is acceptance? And the reason, the talk really chose me rather than my choosing it. About a month or so ago during practice period, our Shuso, Susan Marvin, gave a talk about every day is a good day. And at the end of her talk, Sojin said, the core of this koan is acceptance. And he talked a little bit about acceptance. He said something about when one understands reality, that reality includes everything and everything is changing independently, co-arising, we can see a full range of good and evil are included. He implied that anyway, if those weren't exactly his words. He said something like that, and it had quite a reaction in the group. Someone said, sounds like you are way over in the emptiness side.

[01:06]

Someone else said, what about slavery? We didn't have really time to talk about it, but this kind of thing comes up a fair amount here when we talk about being with what is. and when we talk about acceptance and it causes usually some bit of controversy. So then it came up again on Monday night discussion that happened maybe three or four days after that. And somebody brought up the massacre at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopalian Church in Charleston, North Carolina that had happened earlier that week. And there was a discussion of how do we deal, how do we be with this kind of heinous crime? How do we be with really this awful pain and suffering?

[02:10]

How do we actually exist with it? And there was a discussion about it, and then it was brought up during that time that people from the church had met together and had sat together after the crime and that they had expressed a lot of forgiveness. Many of them had expressed forgiveness for the young man, Dylan Roof, who had committed this crime. So I, somewhere in there, I picked up the New York Times and the New York Times had an article about the hearing, the Raymond hearing that had occurred where Dylann Roof was coming to the court and all of the people from the church also came to the court. And this is what the reporter wrote. One by one they looked to the screen in the corner of the courtroom on Friday into the expressionless face of the young man charged with making

[03:17]

making them motherless, snuffing out the life of a promising son, taking away a loving wife for good, bringing a grandmother's life to a horrific end, and they answer him with forgiveness. If any of you have been not with us for the last month, there were nine people massacred while they were attending a Bible study class at this church in Charleston, North Carolina, South Carolina. So they quoted some of the people who were at the arraignment. One woman said, you took something very precious away from me, said Natalie Collier, daughter of 70-year-old Ethel Lance, her voice rising in anguish. I will never talk to her again. I will never be able to hold her again. But I forgive you and may God have mercy on your soul. It was as if the Bible study group had never ended, as one after another, of the victim's family members offered lessons in forgiveness, a testament to the faith that is not compromised by the violence of grief.

[04:24]

They urged him to repent, confess his sins, and return to God. We welcomed you Wednesday night in our Bible study with open arms, said Felicia Sanders, the mother of 26-year-old Twanza Sanders, a poet who died after trying to save his aunt who was killed. You have killed some of the most beautifulest people I know, she said, in a quavering voice. Every fiber in my body hurts, and I will never be the same. Twanza Sanders is my son, but Twanza was my hero. Twanza was my hero. But as they say in Bible study, we enjoyed you. And may God have mercy on you. So, Again, it was how do we sit with this? How does acceptance have anything to do with this? The following Friday of that week, a lot of coincidences for me in this whole area, this kind of talk emerged from life.

[05:32]

A racially mixed group of Sangha members had the opportunity to meet with a racially diverse group of homeless youth to introduce them to Zen practice. I wondered, when we were going to this, because I knew there would be a lot of African Americans in the group, I wondered, should I bring up the Charleston situation, since it was on everybody's mind, and I was sure it would be on theirs. But the other people in our group said, well, we're going there to talk about what Zen practice is, and to introduce them to sitting practice, and maybe it wouldn't be good to do that, because it would kind of disrupt flow of the group. So there was a consensus that we not talk about it. So we began our talk with these people, and lo and behold, a hand went up after we had done our introductions, and the executive director, who's a Quaker, asked me personally, so what do you do when something so horrible as what happened in Charleston happens?

[06:39]

How does a Buddhist deal with that? And I thought, whoa, okay. And I just, I kind of, you know, took some breaths and said, well, we don't deal with it with hatred and anger. Because if we deal with it with hatred and anger, that's just letting more hatred and anger in the world. So we sit and bear witness to it. And maybe we sit with others who are grieving and maybe sometimes out of that being with people and actually being with the reality of the situation will come up with some way to respond that's helpful in that particular situation rather than being reactive or filled with hate and anger. Someone else in the group said, we have to remember to forgive also and that

[07:41]

and mentioned a situation we had here a number of months ago, the murder of one of our members. And this Sangha member said, I had to forgive that young man because his life was lost too. There were two lives lost, and we have to have compassion. So that was very interesting. It was interesting to me that nobody said much after that there, but I wondered, you know, I wonder how, and the executive director seemed to be, you know, went on to talk about her practice and Quaker practice and dealing with injustice and criminality. So I've been sitting a lot with this, trying to a look at how we can hold both the acceptance that comes in the realization of ultimate reality of the emptiness of everything and at the same time cultivate practices of skillful means in confronting some of the really harsh realities that we are faced with.

[09:01]

So what I'm going to do is just kind of take you through my own process, kind of the process I went through as I was coping with this, or how I was trying to work with it with myself, and hopefully I'll leave enough time for people to actually relate to this in their own way. So first, I decided I needed to, so the first thing I'm gonna talk about is definitions of acceptance, the usual, American definition of acceptance. Acceptance is defined by certain other religions and psychology. And then includes some critiques of Western Buddhism from social activists who accuse our acceptance of being some kind of passive hiding out rather than engaging with the world. And then I'll do some, I'll talk a little bit about probably the Heart Sutra or the Buddhist view of reality and the two truths, and then our practice, how we develop a practice of, if you agree, a practice of acceptance.

[10:21]

What is that about our developing our own practice of acceptance? And then we'll talk a little bit about how it plays out as in the real world, in our real world, how we practice acceptance. So part of the issue, I think, of reaction whenever we get into this topic of acceptance here in this room is that we think about kind of the Webster definition of acceptance. And that is an act of receiving something offered favorable reception, approval or favor, and the act of assenting or approving. So if we take that definition, which we have in our regular life out in the world, we get approval for something, we get acceptance, we're accepted into a school, we accept a directive that somebody, that kind of implies agreeing or approving. And I think that's why we have trouble when we start talking about acceptance, when we start talking about acceptance of difficult circumstances, because we think of accepting as approving, somehow welcoming or approving what's happening, as opposed to something else.

[11:35]

I looked at a couple blogs. One noted therapist, Leonard Noel, wrote, Acceptance, in human psychology, psychology is a person's ascent to the reality of the situation, recognizing a process or condition, often a negative or uncomfortable situation without attempting to change it or protest. The concept is closely related to acquiescence, derived from the Latin to find rest in. Another psychologist said, acceptance does not mean that we agree with what's happening. or that we believe it must continue. Acceptance means that we're able to gaze into the face of the present and say, you are in front of me, and I acknowledge you are there. He says that when we avoid things we find unpleasant or fearful, they generally come back to bite us. But facing and acknowledging them brings greater awareness, which creates space for other perspectives to arise. That seems really important.

[12:40]

having space for other perspectives to arise. And there's a term that was recently, it's an old term, radical acceptance, which has been used in psychology for a long time, but a woman named Tara Brock, who is an insight meditation teacher and psychologist, has popularized this in a book that she wrote called The Power of Radical Acceptance. Healing trauma through the integration of Buddhist meditation and psychotherapy. So for her, radical acceptance means complete and total acceptance of something, accepting reality. Radical acceptance doesn't mean that you are agreeing to a situation or action. It means you're acknowledging that an event has happened and it's real. Radical acceptance is about acceptance of life on life's terms and not resisting when you cannot or choose not to change. It's about saying yes to life just as it is.

[13:50]

So in therapy, there's an assumption that people are doing the best they can, but are either lacking the skills or influenced by positive or negative reinforcement that interfere with their ability to function appropriately. A lot of other religions also use the term acceptance. Surprisingly, I didn't realize this, Islam can be translated as acceptance, surrender, or voluntary submission. The famous serenity prayer used to open 12-step meetings is a Christian prayer that I think talks about acceptance. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. So Christianity also includes acceptance and forgiveness, kind of hand in hand. Martin Luther King said, we must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love.

[14:54]

There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we're less prone to hate our enemies. He also said, darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that. Love is the only force capable of transforming the enemy into a friend. So, the critique of Sojin's talk, which was that he had gone over to emptiness, is that critique is echoed in a number of critiques, especially by politically, socially engaged Buddhists and socially engaged philosophers, particularly social philosophers. There's a psychologist, Marxist psychologist, who has published a number of harangues about Buddhism.

[15:59]

His name is Slobodzic. And he says, He's very critical of Western Buddhism and the meditation tools it implies. He argues that Buddhism is the perfect spiritual tradition to be co-opted by our small, absorbed, destructive, and consumeristic society. For him, Buddhism represents the perfect ideology for passive acquiescence to the world as it is, a panacea of inner peace that fits neatly into an advertising culture. where be here now or be present could just as well be a slogan for a credit card company as an instruction for a meditation teacher. In other words, for him, Buddhism and mindfulness practice allows someone to believe, he could allow someone, I would say, could allow someone to believe that he or she is transforming the mind without actually changing the conditions of suffering that shape an individual's society.

[17:06]

He states that this represents a dangerous type of inner peace, a peace not based on true insight into the interdependent nature of reality, but instead based on the withdrawal into a mental cocoon, some personal oasis isolated from the turmoil of the world outside of this cocoon. The whole world can go to hell, and the meditator can, put simply, be okay with that. In fact, the meditator can even be a willing actor in the system, aiding great oppression, and still live at ease, because it's all good anyway. By practicing acceptance, we simply become comfortable with the status quo. David Loy, who we all, many of us have read about, a well-known Zen teacher, philosopher, and author, and social commentator, talks about how historically, Buddhist religious structure in Asia has been hierarchical, patriarchal, and complicit with state power. He also suggests that even today, Buddhists can hide under a sacred canopy of practice, absorbed in their own liberation, and thus be complicit in social injustice.

[18:13]

So that's a point of view, and I think that's a point of view actually we've heard in this Zendo before. So, that kind of made me go back to My understanding, or our understanding, what is the heart of our teaching? If the heart of our teaching is acceptance and compassion, what is that acceptance and compassion? How can we respond to a critique that we're just sitting here while Rome burns? So our school of Buddhism, many of you I see, I recognize, but there are some of you that may be new, so please forgive me if I do a little basic stuff so that everybody can be on the same page. So at BZC we practice the teaching of the Mahayana Majamaka school of Buddhism as interpreted by the Soto Zen school in Japan and brought here by Suzuki Roshi from Japan.

[19:26]

And the Mahayana, or great vehicle school, differs from the Hinayana, or the Theravada school, in that our practice is directed not only at our own salvation and the peace of mind, but at the salvation and awakening of all beings. And we can't stop practicing until everyone is saved. The Dalai Lama says that in order for wisdom, for the wisdom of emptiness, to serve as a completely effective antidote to our mental afflictions and mental obscurations to knowledge, one must have the complementary factor of bodhicitta, the altruistic attention to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all beings." So a heart of our practice, our Mahayana practice, is cultivating bodhicitta, cultivating an intention to save all beings. So the accusation that we're just sitting around letting everything go is really not not consistent with the teaching of our teachers, Ojiroshi, and also the teachings of all of our Japanese teachers.

[20:30]

The term Madhyamaka, or middle way, was first articulated by Nagarjuna in the second and third centuries. His teaching was based around the central notion of emptiness sunyata or the lack of intrinsic existence or permanent self of phenomenon. He also taught that everything is interconnected and because of certain linked causes and conditions, this person or this thing exists only temporarily. Because of the relational origin or dependent origination, nothing exists independently. For this, and Nagarjuna basically talked about the importance of understanding the two truths. The one truth being that everything is free of intrinsic existence, that nothing is permanent. And yet the other truth that we recognize is that we have a conventional existence.

[21:34]

We live in the conventional world. And that we have to practice with both of those truths and that both of those truths are real. And that they're aspects of the same thing. The Great Wisdom Heart Sutra that we chant every day articulates the reality of emptiness and the two truths. The sutra states that when practicing deeply the prajnaparamita or perfection of wisdom in zazen, we can experience form and emptiness or absolute reality as well as emptiness' form, the truth of the relative or conventional world or reality, as well as noticing in the arising and ceasing of things the role of causes and conditions in the arising and ceasing of our reality from moment to moment. The Dalai Lama in his commentary on the Heart Sutra explains that when the Sutra goes on to say, emptiness is not other than form, we can understand the union of emptiness and dependent origination.

[22:40]

And when we read form two is not of an emptiness, we can understand the appearance and emptiness, that appearance and emptiness are not incompatible, abiding in a state of unity. So that's our teaching. Our teaching is there are two truths, the absolute reality of emptiness and the reality of our moment to moment existence in this changing world. So we can all hear about that. We can all read about it and study about it. But that still actually doesn't really help, at least it never helped me get it. And that's why the Prajnaparamita must be fully realized through sincere and continuous practice. Nagarjuna states that those wishing to attain Buddhahood is essential to uphold the three principles, great compassion, bodhicitta, and wisdom.

[23:42]

So this is a gradual practice that begins with both the study of the teachings and the meditation practice. When we begin to observe our habits of mind, our delusions, our attachments and aversions, and as the Dalai Lama puts it, we develop an unmistaken view of reality and get that the way we perceive things is not the way they are, or better yet, the way it is. So we perceive, we recognize, to have a question about our perceptions and our opinions, we recognize, we begin to realize, hmm, maybe not, maybe this opinion, maybe this injustice that I see, or maybe this horrible thing that I see from one perspective, that might be my own creation. I need to give some space for really being with it, for being with it in meditation, for being with it and penetrating the essence of it. Thich Nhat Hanh emphasizes that meditation is a way to penetrate the nature of phenomenon, including other beings.

[24:52]

He says that penetration means to enter something. When we want to understand something, we cannot just stand outside and observe it. We have to deeply enter in order to really understand. If we want to understand a person, we have to feel their feelings, empathize, suffer their sufferings, and enjoy their joy. When we do this, body and mind drop away and emptiness is realized. In other words, we have to have a body-mind experience of interbeing. We have to, in order to understand that we're all connected and arising moment by moment. We have to have that experience, not just read about it. So that's why we sit here day after day. And Thich Nhat Hanh also says that once we realize this, once we realize and experience this in our body and mind fully, Compassion naturally arises.

[25:53]

It isn't something we have to cultivate. We don't have to cultivate, I wanna be nice to you, because that comes up naturally if we live these two truths, if we live the truth of emptiness and dependent origination, as well as our regular life, if we see that, if we feel it, if we remind ourselves about that every time we sit down. This is really hard work. And there are a lot of practices that the Tibetans do, but we kind of do them too. For example, we chant the Metta Sutta on every Monday. Even as a mother at the risk of her life watches over and protects her only child, so with a boundless mind will I cherish all living things, suffusing love over the entire world, above and below. and all around without limit. So may I cultivate an infinite goodwill toward the whole world." So seeing that, we chant that. We also study the nature of things in our zazen.

[27:01]

We study the arising and ceasing of emotions and feelings and thoughts. We also are with things. But there's another thing that Dalai Lama talks about that I felt was interesting. He talks about cultivating beginningless timelessness. And it made me think about a quote from the Bible, actually, and for Mary Beth, Ecclesiastes 1.9. Mary Beth needs the quotes from the Bible. The thing that hath been is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done, and there is no thing, no new thing under the sun. And I think Sojin was saying that to us during some of these discussions. Every single minute, horrible things are happening, and every single minute, wonderful things are happening, and every single minute, neutral things are happening.

[28:03]

There's never not been slavery, and there's slavery today in Oakland. these things are with us. In order for us to take that step of saying, okay, I understand that, that's the way things are. It doesn't mean to passively sit, but it does mean to take the space to be with, this is how things are. So to me, this is a really important part of it, both recognizing that we want to have metta for everyone, open-heartedness and compassion for everyone, and also recognizing that as awful as it is now, it's not the only time it's ever been awful, or it's not more awful, it's just awful. Today is awful, or yesterday's good, and tomorrow's awful, but there are awful things, and with our understanding of the two truths, something must be done.

[29:06]

So even though we understand, even though we accept it, even though we have our acceptance to help us sit on the cushion and we stay with it, we still don't get away with just doing that because then we are living out what David Loy has talked about or other people have criticized us for. Because the Buddha taught that to be responsible to whatever situation surrounds us, we have to be free from emptiness. We have to come back to the relative world of everyday activities and take care of things. We can't live alone. We're always living with the truth of everyday activities and other people. We have to take care of things. To work together and live together with other people, we have to negate ourselves. And when we interact with our environment, we have to respond to situations and make choices. Dogen's instruction in Genjo Koen, to study the self is to forget the self.

[30:10]

To forget the self means to negate this one. And negating this one, we can see others more clearly. When we negate our egocentricity or our personal point of view, we can see everything more objectively as a part of a situation and we can choose to act without self-interest. We can choose to act for the benefit of all beings. not for our own grievances or our own individual point of view that we hold on to. We can choose to do that right here, right now, in the midst of every day situation. I want to give time, how much time do I actually have? Okay, let me just do a quote from Joanna Macy. The biggest gift you can give is to be absolutely present And when you're worrying about whether you're being hopeful or hopeless or pessimistic or optimistic, who cares? The main thing is that you're showing up, that you're here and that you're finding ever more capacity to love this world because it will not be healed without that.

[31:19]

That is what is going to unleash our intelligence, our integrity, and our solidarity for the healing of the world. So I think I'll stop because that's really my message. I think the other thing that helped me, I think, with this is it helped me to think about acceptance together with empathy and sympathy and compassion and forgiveness. I think that our acceptance, the acceptance we practice is that acceptance and it includes all of that. Acceptance without empathy and compassion and forgiveness is not really acceptance. Thank you for bringing this up. I think it's really interesting and useful. I was thinking that part of our acceptance is to go deeper into accepting the emptiness of what's happening in a certain way. under these conditions, a person could very easily, like so, a young white man who's at that age where they're flailing around and they've been watching these television shows and hearing this kind of language and they have guns accessible to them, under those conditions, a person might very easily do something like this.

[32:41]

And that's the acceptance. So like, you know, it's not, it's like going to the deeper level not blaming these selves that we keep getting caught up in seeing. The Wall Street bankers, under these conditions, they are going to behave in a way that appears to be incredibly selfish to us. Under those conditions. They're people just like us, but under those conditions, this is the behavior that is going to emerge. So when we act to change, we act to change conditions. That's what I think. I wanted to say that I give credit for the work of just sitting in this very way. We accept it. We're composting the issues of the world and serving everyone by that composting. Whether we actually get up and say, I accept you or I forgive you, we are actually composting just for the work.

[33:42]

Alan? There's a lot that comes to mind. Reflecting on, I wasn't there for the lecture that Suzuki, where Sojin commented, but acceptance, to me, even the everyday usage, like accepting college or accepting, it doesn't mean assent or approval, it means inclusion. And I think this is what Sojin, you talked about including, and both Thich Nhat Hanh and Suzuki Roshi talk about patience as, We talked about this a few weeks ago, that the ideogram for patients is a sword hanging over your heart. And that's unacceptable. And yet you don't have any choice but to accept that reality. How do you include that? And so what Sogyal was saying a number of weeks ago that really struck me was, first we sit down, and we stop, and we drop into

[34:52]

this depth and stillness. And we don't stay there. That gives us the groundedness to know where our feet are and we walk forward from there. So, you know, it's like in every bodhisattva, priest, every bodhisattva is like that. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. And the unacceptable is always with us. And I vow not to turn away from it, but to be awake to what happens next. And I'm reminded that we sometimes talk about our practice in a way that we talk about wisdom and compassion rise together. That they are actually not two things.

[35:53]

We can talk about them as two things and sometimes that's useful. And then when I think about it that way, I think about compassion as the creation of space and patience that allows me to see clearly. And then some, I can trust some appropriate response, but going deep into, as Ellen was just saying, stopping and trying to see, just trying to look at the whole thing without reacting to it. When I'm reacting to it, I can't see a thing. So, Jean, since you started it, Acceptance is the still point where everything drops away and you only see the actual reality without opinions, feelings, distortions, what you want, what you don't want, what you like, what you don't like.

[37:04]

All of that's not there. There's only just the bare attention on what's actually happening. And as Ellen actually said it very nicely, you step out from there into whatever is necessary to do. But that doesn't disappear. That's always there. The still point is always there within all of our activity. That's called practice. That's our practice. You don't lose that still point. And with something, we accept every moment. And every moment is a moment of acceptance. So emptiness and form are both there at the same time. truths are always there at the same time. But the still point is always present in all of our activity. That's called enlightenment. Dean? Thank you for this talk.

[38:07]

The last year, year and a half, I've spent a fair amount of time not in the Bay Area and a number of discussions came up about well, why do you think that's okay, Dean? Why do you think this is okay, talking about murder or this or that? And what I realized is that word acceptance, as many people have said, I was around a lot of people, and for them, acceptance meant it was okay that what happened happened, and what became very clear to me, and when I would try to talk about that, no, I'm not accepting that this person was murdered or that action was good. But the fact of the matter is, that's what happened. And I'm accepting that that's what happened. And the next thing is to go from there. And what I realized is there was a lot of... I mean, there was freedom for me, even in having these conversations and trying to explain that it wasn't, no, everything's fine, because there was this image that

[39:12]

every liberal says it's okay for all these terrible things to happen. And, but the other thing that I'm curious about is that there's, you know, the word forgiveness has come up and I noticed someone said, well, what about forgiveness? And I realized that I didn't ever really think about forgiveness because somehow when I would accept something, there wasn't any forgiveness necessary. So I don't know if that means that maybe I'm missing a step, but there just, I didn't, there wasn't a need to forgive something because I didn't think that something was wrong. So maybe it's more included in. Yeah. It happens like just, it arises together when you accept. Sue and then Linda. I want to thank you for the talk. It's very moving. It woke me up to the passion of this moment.

[40:17]

There's like a passion in acceptance, too. Thank you. Linda? Well, a comment and a question. The comment is about, you know, you quoted from the Metta Sutta. I just... Louder, please. She quoted from the Metta Sutta, which we often recite. I was having a discussion the other day. The Metta Sutta is from the Pali Canon. It's from the earliest layer of Buddhism. It's ancient and it's Theravada or so-called Hinayana. So I think we do an injustice when we differentiate the Mahayana as the great discovery of compassion. So I wanted to say that. In defense of the Hinayana. But the question is this. Not a follow-up to that comment, a different question. Near the beginning, you said that when you were asked, how does a Buddhist respond to this, you answered, it was tough to be on the spot, but you answered from your heart, and you said that we don't respond with anger and hatred because, and then you said, so if I feel anger and hatred, can I not be a Buddhist?

[41:35]

Well, of course you can. You knew the answer to that. We feel. We don't want to respond. We don't want to respond, but we respond. We have our gut responses. But there's responding and reacting. You can have your hatred and anger, and then you can be with your hatred and anger and recognize the emptiness of it. But that doesn't mean that we have to all be smiley and nice all the time and not say, oh my God, I can't believe that happened. We better do something. I thought that was worth mentioning. Yeah, yeah. I think we're really over, right? So we can have, Katie, okay, everybody wants Katie. Everybody voted for Katie. I just wanted to say that I feel like, I enjoyed the quotes from Cizek because they're just so in our comfy cocoon sometimes.

[42:40]

And I guess then the question for me is, does our environment, our sangha, our teachings, all the encouragement of our practice, and that, sorry, that rolling up in a cocoon is encouraged by certain social forces and social realities of not really seeing or feeling the suffering of others. And then does our practice and our teachings and everything you know, how does that dovetail with that, you know, kind of that, to ask a more open question than just a critique of Buddhism, but, you know, does our practice help us open up and see what is being hidden from us, or does it, you know, or does it reinforce that, potentially? Well, you know, of course it can do either of those. And that's our challenge. Sometimes when we come here initially to practice, we come with a lot of suffering, and we really need to be in a safe place and be with what is for us right now.

[43:47]

But then we have to live in the world. We all have to live in the world, and when we have to live in the world, our vow to save all beings is there. And it can manifest in different ways from just empathy and being with to taking action when we need to. But there are times when we do need that protection of our Sangha. Sometimes when terrible things have happened in the past, we've all come here to sit. No 9-11 people were here sitting. What could we do? But we could all bear witness together. and it is a comfort without necessarily... a cocoon is closed, you know? So I think that's the issue. Are you closed in so that you're not open or are you in a... I always think of it as an arc, you know, contained in some kind of arc floating, but yes. that the butterfly comes out of the cocoon. Yes, eventually, right after they're developed enough.

[44:51]

So sometimes we have to stay here and develop into a butterfly before it can come out. OK.

[44:57]

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