Good morning, everyone. I'm just going to put this on gallery view. I want to ask if you can hear me. I put my sound up a little bit high, so I'm not deafening you all. And I want to begin today just to welcome you and say I'm glad to see all of you that I can see in this zoom format. And let's see, I'll begin by talking a little bit about why I started practicing Zazen 28 years ago and sort of what I was hoping to get from it and a little bit about whether I got it. So, you know, when I started sitting, my life was really busy. I was married and I had a two year old and a six year old, and I was running a dance company and I had a dance studio and I was teaching and doing other kinds of production work.

[01:17]

And, you know, it was kind of a three ring circus. And at the same time, my father was ill and he lived in Berkeley. Both my parents lived in Berkeley. And and, you know, very soon before I. I started practicing, he died and I was with him throughout his illness, which wasn't a terribly long illness. But I was really with him when he died, I was sitting right with him when he died. And, you know, as I think happens for people, you know, when your parent dies, it kind of makes you aware of your own mortality. He was in his early 70s and it wasn't impossible for me to imagine being that age. And, you know, it was kind of like I was the next step on the diving board, you know, and it was kind of a wake up for me.

[02:28]

And so that was the point at which I started my sitting practice. And I actually took a little time off from my dance company and, you know, sort of made time for that. And. Around that time, you know, I was talking to a friend who knew me very, very well, and she was somebody who I was dancing with at the time, and she asked me, you know, why was I adding something to my life? You know, it was already just, you know, so complicated. And I was just like running around all the time trying to just keep things organized and, you know, everybody's safe and fed. And, you know, my my dance company, you know, funded and, you know, just like, you know, kind of crazy. And and what I remember saying to her was, you know, I, you know, become aware that I'm going to die at some point sooner or later. And I feel like I'm not experiencing my life.

[03:49]

I feel like, you know, it's just passing me by and I'm always running ahead of it, you know, trying to, you know, make it work or, you know, organize things or do logistics or manage or maneuver or, you know, just always ahead of myself or maybe, you know, behind myself, regretting something that I did wrong or that didn't work out or, you know, a performance that didn't go well or something. But or, you know, I forgot to pick my kid up at preschool. But, you know, just this general feeling that I wasn't ever, you know, having my life. I didn't have it and I was going to be over. So that's sort of what started me on this path. And I, you know, have been reflecting a little bit on whether, you know, what my kind of hope was for this practice or my dream, you know, has kind of worked out or how has it worked out for me?

[04:55]

And, you know, I just felt this separation kind of between, you know, where I was in my mind and, you know, where I was in my body. And, you know, part of what interests me when I think back on that is, you know, kind of how I knew what I wanted. And kind of what experiences I'd had that kind of made me know something about it. And, you know, I will say that, you know, dancing was a practice like that. You know, it was a time, you know, often when I was performing, but also, you know, when I was just dancing and when I had been dancing as a child, where I felt, you know, really present and sort of like there was nothing, you know, you know, pulling me out of my body, really.

[05:59]

And so, you know, that was something I knew about. It didn't sort of translate into the rest of my life. But, you know, I knew something about it from that. And then, you know, I did, you know, in my dance training, some sort of body awareness or movement awareness work that are classes that, you know, you know, included, you know, the idea of mindfulness and sort of body awareness. And so, you know, that also was kind of informing me. But again, it didn't sort of leave the studio with me. And, you know, I couldn't find it in the rest of my life. And, you know, there were other times too, you know, that I remember sort of sometimes in nature or, you know, when I saw some wonderful music or art, you know, I would have that, you know, feeling of, you know, kind of being right there and maybe sort of dumbstruck.

[07:14]

And, you know, that kind of forward thinking would be kind of knocked out of me. I sort of follow trends in psychology because my daughter has been studying it for a number of years. And there's kind of always something new and sort of a new idea in psychology. But maybe five years ago or something, I started noticing some research that was being done, a lot of it at Berkeley, actually. And it was called the psychology of awe, as in awesome or, you know, awestruck. And, you know, the idea of the psychology was that, you know, if you saw or were sort of confronted with something that was, you know, just greater than yourself, like if you saw the ocean for the first time, or you saw the Grand Canyon for the first time, you would, it would sort of shift your paradigm and sort of your sense of yourself.

[08:25]

And, you know, with a very positive effect. And I think, you know, part of the research is they're using, you know, psychedelic drugs to kind of enhance this experience. But, you know, they really talked about these experiences that, you know, you have occasionally in nature or, you know, in art or something where you, you know, you're just sort of taken over, so to speak. And so this is a little quote from, you know, what they say about what happens when you have this experience, they say, this is your experience of awe. It can be self transcendent, it violates our normal understanding of the world, and gives us a diminished sense of the small self. People feel like they have more time, increased feelings of connectedness. It makes people more kind and generous. So, you know, I think I'd had that experience. And I, you know, when I saw the Redwoods for the first time, or, you know, when I saw even something small in nature that was sort of breathtaking.

[09:35]

So I knew about it from that. And then, you know, and I'm sure there's other ways, you know, that we kind of have an inkling about this. And I read another story, this was in the newspaper, about a guy who was just like spinning in his mind about, you know, the kind of political situation. This was not, it was a year ago in June, I guess. And he lived in Chicago, and he was worried about politics. And he was like, really worried about the pandemic. And one morning, he rode down to Lake Michigan, and got off his bike and stood at the edge and jumped in. And Lake Michigan at that time of year, apparently is 50 degrees. And he said, it felt so good. I just wanted to block it out, the pandemic, everything. And, you know, so, you know, that sort of physical shock, that sort of moment when you really are sort of thrust back into your body. I think I know about that, too, you know, just stubbing my toe or, I don't know, even having a massage sometimes could do that. By the way, that the story was that he had done that every single day since then. So I guess it worked for him.

[10:52]

So, you know, I had this notion about what I wanted, this notion of waking up. But I didn't know how to translate it into my everyday life. And, you know, I've read some books about Zen, and I've done some sitting a little bit before that. But that's where I went at that point to sort of, you know, try to figure out how to have this in my life, how to have my life include this or this experience or, you know, not to always be chasing my mind, basically. So, looking back, you know, I kind of asked myself, well, did it work? You know, did I get what I wanted? And, you know, I guess the answer is, I did. But I got, you know, of course, it's a little different than I thought. And also, I got much more than I wanted.

[12:13]

And, you know, at that time, I would have said that I probably didn't want more. I just wanted that. And also that I thought it was kind of a, you know, a little tweak to my life, you know, that I was just gonna kind of make my life better. But, you know, it's turned out to be a much kind of larger part of my life. And then I thought it would be at that time, and really has changed my life quite a lot. So, I wanted to talk about a koan today that sort of, for me, expresses the sort of the bigger sense of what I've, where I've come to, or, you know, what this practice is that was bigger than I had any notion of at the time when I started. And I think probably everybody here knows what koans are.

[13:15]

They, you know, but just in case you don't, I'll just say that for me, they're little vignettes or dialogues or conversations or stories or dramas, maybe that little short ones that kind of express our practice and or some aspect of our practice. And they, I'm sure there's modern koans, I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure they must exist. But most of the koans that I'm aware of, and that I talk about and have other people around here talk about are really old. They were collected in China in the 12th and 13th century. But the stories themselves are purported to have occurred and often involve teachers who lived at least 200 years before that.

[14:21]

So the stories sort of were said to have occurred before that. And then they were collected in the 12th and 13th century. So that makes them like 9th century or before. And, you know, and as I said, they're stories from China. So a very different time, a very different place and a very different culture, which can make them a little impenetrable. And they certainly were for me when I started looking at them. I started studying them with Sojin, probably six or seven years ago, and maybe more even. And he was giving classes sort of sporadically, and just studying one koan at each class. And, you know, I really did find them very difficult, and kind of only really stuck with it because Sojin just loved them so much. And of course, I liked being around him, but, you know, his enthusiasm for them was sort of palpable.

[15:32]

But, you know, still, I just mostly felt frustrated. And he would explain them, and I would get some little glimpse of it, you know, which I actually valued about. But, you know, mostly for me, they were hard to understand. And then about three years ago, I started studying them with some of my friends here at the Berkley Zen Center, first with Jed and Ron, and then with Andrea and Ron. And I've been doing that kind of every week, almost since then, and working my way or our way through the Book of Serenity, which is one of the collections. And, you know, I've kind of relaxed a little bit around them, and, you know, kind of felt more confident that I could, you know, interpret them the way that I that I interpreted them and that not somebody else wasn't always right about them. And, you know, they've kind of come alive for me. So I'm going to talk about one that's sort of alive for me and sort of talks about, as I say, what I think of as the bigger picture. And I think I'm fond of this one, or I chose this one, because not only is it a little kind of story, but it's a little dance for me. It has a lot of movement in it.

[16:52]

So this is from a collection called The Blue Cliff Record. And it's called Elder Joe Stands Motionless. And this takes place, at least in my imagination, in the zendo of a monastery. And I picture it sort of like what we call shosan, where it's kind of a formal setting where the student, and this is kind of an experienced older student, is asking the teacher a dharma question. And in this case, the teacher is Rinzai, who is, you know, kind of was known to be a very powerful, energetic, and very physical teacher. So again, remember, this was a different culture. So here is the koan. Elder Joe, that's the student, asked Rinzai, what is the great meaning of the Buddhist teaching?

[18:00]

Rinzai came down off his meditation seat, grabbed the student and held him, then gave him a slap and pushed him away. The student stands motionless. A fellow monk standing nearby, a dharma brother, said, Elder Joe, why don't you bow? Just as Joe bowed, he was suddenly enlightened. Mostly people are sort of enlightened in these koans. So I'll just talk about my interpretation, and I'm sure there's others. And maybe if you have others, you'll tell me at some point, because I actually always like hearing them. So the student is asking Rinzai the question, and the question is, what is the great meaning of the Buddhist teaching? And, you know, I think of this as a good question. You know, this is a question, you know, that you really could ask in Shosan or in Dokusan, you know, what is this about?

[19:10]

What is kind of the essence or the kernel or the, maybe the truth, although maybe not, of Buddhist teaching? What's the most important thing? And what's Buddhism? And what are we doing here? You know, really, all those questions, those are good questions. And so then the next part I see as Rinzai's answer, you know, sometimes I used to think those kinds of questions, and there's many of them in the koans. You know, I used to feel like, you know, the answer the teacher gave, like hitting him with a whisk or sending him off to wash his bowls, sort of a reprimand for asking that question. But in this case, I feel like, and I think probably in all cases, it's really, he's answering the question. So Rinzai comes down off his meditation seat, you know, and you can sort of imagine, you know, Sojin or Hosan getting up and coming down.

[20:15]

And he, this is harder to imagine, he grabbed the student and held him. And for me, that kind of represents Zazen really, it represents being still and silent. And, you know, partly I feel that, you know, when I first started sitting, that came as such a radical thing for me to just stop. And, you know, just be with what was going on for me at that time. And, you know, to sort of, I felt like I was doing nothing, sometimes for four or five days. And, you know, to kind of organize my life to give myself that time was just a huge thing for me.

[21:17]

And also, you know, I felt that, you know, the teacher and the people around me were holding me, they were really supporting me. Because I'm not sure I could have sat still if they weren't there. So it felt, you know, very intimate and sort of supportive to have people around me. And, you know, I've heard other people say that, you know, especially at difficult times in their lives, that they really needed to sit with people, they couldn't really do it by themselves. And, you know, I sort of felt that in the beginning, it was harder for me to be alone. So that's what that part is about for me. And then Rinzai gave him a slap. And for me, that is the waking up part. That's the kind of just kind of being knocked into yourself.

[22:18]

You know, like jumping into Lake Michigan, it's, you know, you're right there. There's nothing else. You know, it's emptiness or, you know, being completely just present, just this. And, you know, that's kind of a moment that can come in our Zazen or is sort of available maybe more in our Zazen than in our busy lives. But, you know, wherever we experience it, you know, whether it's, you know, jumping into cold water or seeing the Grand Canyon or, you know, the rainbow, we can't hold on to it. You know, it's just over when it's over. And, you know, we want to cling to it. I certainly did. But we can't. We time moves on, we move on.

[23:22]

And so the next part when Rinzai pushes him away, I see as sort of, OK, you know, you had that experience. Now you have to move back into your life. And, you know, that was really the part that I didn't realize or didn't think about or didn't know about, you know, when I thought about, you know, wanting to, you know, be present. I was like, oh, I'll just be present. You know, I want nothing else, you know. So that was kind of. Funny that I had that idea, but I didn't. And then, you know, the very last part is, you know, his Dharma brother, again, his Sangha said to him. Why don't you bow? And this is, again, kind of like our show said, OK, you got your answer now bow. And, you know, he bowed. And, you know, then, you know, my feeling is he he really got the answer.

[24:23]

He saw the whole thing. And so that's sort of how I see the koan. And. You know, it's sort of a fuller picture than that I had when I started. And, you know, I guess I want to talk a little bit, you know, again about what I've kind of what's shifted sort of for me. And it's a lot of it has been about sort of this transition between Zazen and, you know, kind of daily life. So, you know, I just guess I had this idea that I was going to sort of escape from all the planning and managing. I just somehow didn't factor in that I was still going to have to buy groceries and, you know, get my kids to school and so on.

[25:31]

And, you know, all that sort of planning, I thought I just didn't realize that somehow I was going to have to keep doing that. And and, you know, I think, you know, one of the big things for me is that my relationship to that kind of thinking or then to my thinking has really changed. And, you know, one thing is that it doesn't pull me around in the same way that it used to. I don't run after it quite the way I did. And, you know, I've learned to sort of live alongside it, maybe, or live with it in a way with my kind of thinking and planning mind in a kind of more compatible, I'd say, way. And, you know, I think, again, Zazen, you know, which is the holding still part of our practice, you know, which is just a huge part of our practice. It's maybe the main part of our practice in a certain way is really a good place to look at kind of that relationship.

[26:41]

You know, it's a safe space for one thing. You know, a lot of what I felt like I was doing was trying to keep everybody safe and healthy and well and, you know, my dance company safe and healthy and well. And so, you know, the Zen Center is, you know, kind of a safe space to, you know, let go of some of our thinking. And especially in Zazen, we have, you know, our forms, which are really, you know, about kind of mindfulness and being present. And then, you know, we have someone who keeps the time for us. We have someone who cooks for us and serves us our food and tells us what job to do. So we have a little freedom to let go of the thoughts that go into maintaining our lives. And, you know, this chance to sort of sit with them and watch them and let them be there and let them go. And they don't seem so like our survival is so dependent on them.

[27:46]

And, you know, we don't have to respond or react to them so much. And, you know, sort of slowly over time, you know, my relationship has changed. And, you know, I think, you know, our thoughts stop running us. And, you know, we are kind of able to be more present, even when we're writing our grocery list or, you know, when we're quiet or when we're busy. And, you know, so that was sort of a bigger picture than I had. And I'll just tell a little story about Sojin. I when I was so I had to give a lot of talks.

[28:48]

And and one of the ones I get, maybe the last one I had to give during the five day session at the end. And, you know, I really want to sit that session. But, you know, it didn't leave me any time to plan my talk. And so I would be sitting, you know, in my seat, but I would be thinking about the talk that I was going to give. And I went to see Sojin one morning and I said, you know, I'm not really sitting Zazen, I'm just thinking about my talk. And he said, that's Zazen. So, you know, that was a little reminder that, you know, it's all. You know, we we can still be present with whatever is going on. I think the other thing that, you know, I didn't really factor in is that I had sort of a rosy picture of, you know, what waking up was going to be like.

[29:50]

You know, I didn't really think about that. I was going to have to wake up to be present for things I didn't like, like fear and hurt and anger. You know, I just didn't factor that in. I sort of thought it would all be, you know, whatever rainbows and so on. And again, I feel like Zazen is kind of a laboratory for this. We sit with all the difficulties and problems that are coming up in our lives. And, you know, right at the beginning, you know, I was like, I just thought, you know, if my knees hurt like this in real life, in regular life, I would just get up and move. But you don't. You sit with discomfort. You sit with, and not always, but sometimes. And you don't turn away from it.

[30:51]

And, you know, it's kind of, as people often talk about, a solid, you know, posture where, you know, it feels a little more possible to let, you know, feelings come up, problems come up. You know, and we get some experience, I think, with being with those things. It can be surprising. It can be painful. But we kind of get some confidence that we can sit with what is coming up for us. And, you know, I feel like that allows us to open more to, you know, what's really so. Yeah, I think that's what I feel about that, that I've become more willing kind of to, you know, let life be the way that it is for me.

[32:05]

And less fearful, really. You know, I remember saying to Joko once, I feel braver. And, you know, it's because I felt like I could withstand or stand or be present for more than I thought I could. And that gradually, I think, expands over time. And, you know, we were able to, you know, sort of be bigger and take in more and sort of have bigger minds. You know, we're not pushing things out all the time. I'm going to end with a very, very short reference to another koan. And this one is the one that I studied when I was a shuso and studied with Sojin.

[33:07]

And it's called, it's really a famous one. And it's, you know, one that, again, involves a very powerful, you know, strong teacher named Master Baso. And this one is called Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha. And it stayed with me, you know, it stayed really close to me for since I was shuso. It's really with me a lot. And much has been said and written about it. And there's many ways of looking at it, I can assure you. But for me, it's just really about, you know, including everything and a kind of a reminder of that. And as I said, it's very short. Master Baso was kind of at the end of his life, and he was ill. The attendant of the monastery came to visit him and asked,

[34:10]

How are you doing? Are you well or not? And Baso said, Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha. And I'm going to finish with a short quote from Suzuki Roshi on this koan. I just kind of want to say that I just think that's such a great little answer. That's just such a good answer. I wish I could say that when somebody asked me how I am. So this is the quote. Knowing that your life is short, to maintain it day after day, moment after moment is the life of form is form and emptiness is emptiness. When the Buddha comes, you welcome him. When the devil comes, you welcome him. The famous Chinese master Baso said, Sun Face Buddha and Moon Face Buddha.

[35:17]

That is the life of form is form and emptiness is emptiness. There is no problem. One year of life is good. 100 years of life is good. If you continue this practice, you will attain this stage. So on that uplifting note, I will stop. And, you know, take your comments or your questions if you have them. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And if you have a question now, please raise your digital hand or feel free to send a chat directly to me and I will manage that for you. Thank you. So should I call on Penelope?

[36:24]

Are you going to, Heiko? You're muted, Heiko. Penelope, why don't you just go ahead, but unmute yourself. Lovely to hear you. Thank you, Ellen. When you were speaking at the earlier session, the earlier part of your talk about, and it feels like it went all the way through the talk, the theme of awe, it kept reminding me of Mary Oliver, who in many different settings used this phrase that her job description for this life was to live in praise and awe. I've always cherished that, especially in moments that feel more challenging to find the places of praise and awe to still hold that position. So your talk was for me a celebration in a way of that.

[37:27]

Thank you. Thank you, Penelope. I just want to say that the definition of awe, because I looked it up, is terror or great reverence. That gets to it, doesn't it? Thank you. Stephanie, would you like to unmute yourself? Ellen, I was wondering how your dancing, your expression through dance shifted as you started practicing. Well, you know, it's interesting. It did. Well, I think it did, but I realized that this has really been kind of a goal of mine always in my dancing, but it became more, you know, kind of,

[38:28]

I became more aware of it as I started practicing that I wanted to share that sense of presence. I wanted to kind of communicate that, and I think I actually always did, even when I was pretty young. You know, I wanted to express that in some way, but I became more aware of that, you know, as time went on. So I think that was the change, but I'm not sure the real sort of wanting to do that changed. I just think I just became more aware of it. Thank you. Now, a question from Sue. Give me a moment, please, to find and spotlight her. You can unmute yourself, Sue.

[39:29]

Hi, Ellen. Hi, Sue. Thank you for your talk. I was very grateful to hear that you study with senior students, and I wonder about, since you are a senior student, about people coming to you. How do you, like new students, people who become new members, you know, we want to welcome people into the sangha, and meeting with senior students is a wonderful way to do that. So if a new or old member comes to you, how do you hold that meeting, that practice discussion? You know, I really, I mean, one thing is,

[40:37]

I'm obviously, from my talk, I'm interested in what brings people to practice. And I think also because of my own experience, I feel like anywhere somebody starts is a great place to start. So I just kind of, you know, try to make myself available. And, you know, often people have questions, and sometimes they don't really have questions. But I like to kind of encourage them, you know, especially newer people, to articulate, you know, what they're doing here, you know, what brought them. And, you know, people usually like to talk about that, actually. So, but partly, you know, one of the things I feel, and I really felt this when I was Shisho, is talking about what we're doing clarifies it.

[41:38]

I mean, you know, again, you know, we're returning to silence, and you can't put it into words. But, you know, it really makes you engage with it in some way. So I'd say that about newer students, and about people who've been around longer. You know, I usually just laugh with them. Thank you. Thank you. We now have a question from Jeff. Jeff, unmute yourself, please, and ask your question when you are spotlighted. Thank you. That was a great talk, Ellen. Thank you so much. So many ways in, and that's what I love about great lectures. I think my attention wandered among all of the great things that you shared. I missed how you felt about the student being struck in the story you shared. Well, I think that's a really good question. I actually might want to tell a little story here,

[42:41]

because, you know, I find that, you know, I have to kind of, you know, be tolerant in some way of that. You know, I'm not into it. But I will say that I have had experiences with teachers. I have asked questions somewhat similar to that, where I felt like their answers were, you know, metaphorically a little slap. So, and I'll give you an example. And thank you for asking the question, because I like this example. So I went to see Sojin, and this is when I was studying the Heart Sutra, and befuddled, fairly befuddled by it. And, you know, I was talking to him, and unfortunately, I don't remember what my question was. But I said to him, you know, whatever it was, you know, I just, I just, I'm struggling with this.

[43:41]

And, you know, I was kind of worked up. And I finally said, I just don't understand it. And, you know, he stopped and was quiet and looked at me, kind of looked at me, you know, which, you know, kind of, you know, pushed me back into myself. And then he said, yes, you do. And for me, that felt, you know, just like a little, a little wake up, a little like, you know, you know, be here, you know, you know, be in yourself. And so, you know, whereas, you know, I'm happy that he never slapped me and nobody else did, and I don't condone it. Sometimes I've gotten an answer. And that's not the only one that felt like, you know, felt like, you know, just a wake up like that. So that's, that's what I said. That's one of the best explanations of striking that I've heard. And I think the analogy is really wonderful.

[44:42]

Thank you so much. You're welcome. We have a question now from Ross. Ross, go ahead and unmute yourself. Thank you, Heiko. And thank you, Ellen. Your talk reminded me of Suzuki Roshi's comment, be careful about wanting enlightenment. You might not like it. And when you spoke about the difficulties and things that you woke up to, I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about how you embrace those or accept them in such a way that they have the same kind of light and acceptance and appreciation, if you will, for this so-called lighter or nicer or more rainbowy, as you described, aspects of our days. Thank you. Well, I'm not really sure I do.

[45:48]

I want to be clear that, you know, there are many things in my life that I don't like, you know, that are really things that I, you know, wish I wasn't experiencing, you know, that are very hard for me. And so I don't want to kind of say that I don't have any preferences, you know, that I don't pick and choose. I do. And, you know, I think most of us do. But I do feel like, you know, I have a bigger, I guess I would say a bigger mind for it, a more tolerant or generous mind toward, you know, the things I don't like, the things I don't like about myself, you know, my critical thoughts

[46:51]

and the things I don't like about other people and their opinions. And, you know, I just have more sort of, I don't know, sort of, I mean, tolerance is sort of a word or sort of... Forbearance, maybe, or patience? Patience. But there is some joy in it. You know, there actually is some joy in it. I can't explain that. But, you know, there is some, maybe humor or something in, you know, just how opinionated and picky I am. You know, I guess I would say that. It's a great thing to wake up to. That also reminds me of Suzuki Roshi telling Sojin, sometimes just being alive is enough to experience all this. Thank you so much again. Thank you. Thank you, Ross. We have now a question from Gary. Gary, go ahead and unmute yourself.

[47:52]

Hi, Ellen. Hi, Gary. Great talk. I think what Ross was digging at is, isn't that the moon face? That part that's kind of you don't like, but you're able to hold? Anyway, my question is, when you ring the bells, say the big bell, what's that like? That's my question. Yeah, I got your question. What's it like? You mean, you know, it's like lots of things. It's like, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at,

[48:57]

but, you know, sometimes it's like, I'm right here and I'm feeling the vibration of this bell. And sometimes it's like, oh, my God, I didn't hit it right. I should have hit it louder or softer or somebody is going to tell me to do it differently. So it could be all those different ways. Yes. As far as what I was getting at, I kind of feel that, at least from my personal experience of it, it's it really brings you something special. I don't know. It just connects you with everything. The universe, in a way. That big bell. Great. I'll just say something that's coming to my mind, which is, this is a little

[50:02]

personal, but um, you know, I feel like that bell is kind of the deeper tones, the deeper tonality. And, you know, maybe the darker tonality, one might say. And there was a period of time when my husband was going through, you know, a period of what some people might have called depression, but he did not want to call it that. He called it, you know, he was just living in the lower registers. So I guess that was a good thing. He's on this Zoom, so he may have something to say about that. Thank you, Gary. Right now, we have no questions. Let's take just a moment of quiet and see what

[51:04]

comes up. Thank you all. Bring your questions. There we have a question from Helen. Please, Helen, unmute yourself and go ahead. I'll start your video also, please, Helen, if you will. Oh, hi. I didn't intend to raise my hand, but I did have a question about what number the Blue Cliff in what case number that was. Number 32. Number 32. Thank you. That's it. Okay, bye. Kurt, I think you should unmute

[52:07]

yourself and ask your question. Great. Thanks so much, Ellen, for the talk. It was really wonderful and heartfelt. And like someone, I think Jeff mentioned earlier, so many ways of connecting with it and resonating. One thing that occurred to me is when you were talking about those experiences with nature and in awe. And actually, I think that is part of the definition of awe is it doesn't fit into our conceptual structure. Right. Some experience. And so then we need to accommodate rather than assimilate or something. But you mentioned being dumbstruck. Right. And it made me think of a talk Jerry gave earlier, you know, a while back about the fool and, you know, parts of our practice where I think it's the jewel mirror where it

[53:08]

says practice like a fool or, you know, and so I was just wondering that notion of being dumb, right, of not knowing of practicing and not so logical or rational, I guess, kind of way what we would say is usually rational. If you would talk a little bit if that's then part of your practice that letting go of the analytical mind and allowing yourself to be dumb. And if that's helpful or how you can do that or maybe maybe not. I think you're sort of talking about it, you know, so maybe you have something to say about it. You know, has it been part of your practice? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's why it kind of resonated to me that that being because so often and still I you know, you want to figure out right? You want to know or you want to but all

[54:08]

of that, I guess for me, though, knowing the figuring out is it's kind of why the control maybe wanting to be safe and so just letting go of that and just not knowing and having some trust with that. And that's been an issue certainly for me because I that is a little scary to say, well, I don't know or I'm going to really confront this fully and just open to it and not know and not have a way of understanding or figuring it out or that kind of thing. So yeah, that is I think the edge of of my practice is practicing being dumb and that that is really useful. At least for me,

[55:10]

you know, sometimes I think Santiana or somebody said something paraphrasing reason and rationality is a good servant but a poor master. Right. That's really well said. I think we can't do without it but we give it way too much power, you know, way too much of our kind of confidence and you know, it's a hard thing to let go of. And again, you know, I think you know, Zazen has been sort of a way that I've sort of been able to see that it isn't who I am really because I really thought it was. Thank you. We have now a question from Susan Marvin. Susan, please unmute yourself. Hi, Ellen. Hi, Susan. Thank you so much for your talk. So can you say

[56:12]

something about for you what's at the very center or the meeting place or the heart of Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha and I'm asking this because you know, now we're coming into the fire season and you and I have been talking about that being outside walking and talking about the air and how are we going to practice with Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha? Well, you know, that's something I actually think about quite a lot, you know, the sort of, you know, all that that means is those fires, climate change, you know, animals dying, all of that sort of heartbreak really.

[57:13]

And, you know, I think it is, you know, just both terrifying and heartbreaking. And, you know, I think it's, you know, there's like things in life that are just difficult, you know, and in a certain way our practice doesn't change that. You know, there are things that are just, you know, sort of overwhelmingly painful. And, you know, so when I think of Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha, I think of that sense, and I think you've had this experience and I have, of you know, sitting with something that you can barely bear and something, you know, kind of expands so that you can hold it. And I guess that's what I think about this. And, you know, and then we have to remember that today is beautiful.

[58:16]

And our gardens are really nice. And the trees are still there for now. And that part of it. But there is some way of just expanding to hold that kind of trauma and pain that I think, you know, we've all experienced and we will experience. So maybe Heartbreak is the meeting place or the center of Sun Face Buddha, Moon Face Buddha, and that might not be a bad thing. What do you think? I don't think it's a bad thing. Me either. But I used to think it was a bad thing. At one time I thought heartbreak was really a bad thing. Thanks, Ellen.

[59:09]

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