temporary manifestations, feelings, formations, conceptions. So they're the same material. It's all, you know, emptiness. It's all due to nature. But it shows up in form, waves. So we can either, to study the waves, to see the waves, is to see one aspect of the ignoring. Aren't we supposed to ignore the waves or go below the waves? The waves are our Dharma gates. Yeah, but we don't stand in a doorway, we go through and get beyond, right? We go into the earth or whatever. I guess where I'm coming from is that I don't like the waves. I think the waves are something to be, once you acknowledge the waves, to get out of the waves, you know, sort of. When one of the disciples made a comment in Bodhidharma, he said, you are my skin.

[01:06]

As I recall, this phrase wasn't a very wavy one. It was a pretty good response. But was actually the one disciple who made the response, was that response actually one that was shallow response? Well, Doving is saying that none of them were shallow, that all of them expressed understanding. And each one obtained the body of the ancestor with his expression, with his answer. So, because he knew... What's interesting is that he knew the students. You know, the parallel is... These were people that just walked into the room. He said things, you know, were off the wall. He'd been studying with these people. He knew them very well.

[02:08]

They'd been his disciples for some years. So, he was seeing into their heart, into their heart and stomach and mind. That was how I felt. He knew that whatever each one said came out of their own deep wrestling with their life. And what they came up with was their complete understanding at that moment. And the fullness of their understanding is what Bodhidharma is acknowledging. Even though one person may be skin, one person may be the bones, and one person may be marrow, but each one was 100% himself, herself. So, when you say, we get past the waves, then, you know, we don't want to look at our anger, or we don't want to look at our small thoughts. You can, that's one way of working, is just sitting and letting that stuff go by.

[03:09]

Another way is of training it. If you're bothered by it, if it doesn't go by, if it keeps coming back and pestering you and you can't get it out of your mind, then maybe you can look at it. Maybe it's time to look at it. What's this about? Why can't I drop it? Why is it pestering me? So that's insight meditation? Yeah. I guess you can call it insight meditation. Analyzing it, looking at it. Not analyzing it like psychoanalysis, which is Noticing that the mind is producing this kind of thing, that the mind is producing these thoughts, these feelings. So noticing that the productions of the mind are what they are, there comes a time when there's something settling about that. You finally say, oh, I'm the kind of person who produces these thoughts. I have a kind of mind that produces these thoughts.

[04:14]

And it's not outside anymore. Just body and mind. And that helps us accept who we are. That all of us have a kind of body and mind that produces envy and greed and disgust and arrogance and pride and insecurity and anxiety and fear. You know, the dark side is the side we don't want to look at. So, watching that stuff, those are the ways I think you don't want to look at. You don't mind the ways that, say, Brian is skillful and talented and energetic and strong and handsome and courteous and gracious and charming. You don't mind looking at things that's the other side, that we don't want to own up here. Instead, we want you out here and say, oh, that's me too. And that's the part that's so liberating. Because that part comes from beginningless beginning.

[05:16]

You don't own it. And yet, temporarily, it's housed in you. If you both do and don't own it, we all share it. Is this addressing your point? I think so. Yeah, like, for me, I've been thinking a lot about, or meditating on a basis somewhat of going beyond this shit, going below this shit. Like, for me, shallow meditation would be where I'll be caught up in these feelings, and then I'll come to a point where I'll say, okay, now it's time to go below that. To go below that. To where it's quiet? Huh? To where it's quiet, you mean? No, and that's part of it, is that what's below, I don't know what's below.

[06:20]

I have no definition of what's behind that or below that or what that's going to be like. But to go there. And it's definitely not waves anymore. There's a distinction between waves and emptiness. I call it emptiness. I don't know which emptiness you mean. I've been reading of Vipassana meditation, and it causes a little controversy in my meditation, or in my mind maybe, about meditating on the arising of these phenomena and the characteristics of them, things like that. Well, the way that I work with it is that I let the stuff come and go, and I think of it as emptiness. And I don't think that there's an emptiness outside of it. And sometimes there's stuff coming and going, and sometimes it's not so active, but that it's only empty.

[07:22]

Even the quiet is empty. I don't have much problem with seeing the quiet as empty, but I have a problem with seeing Depression is empty, or sloth and torpor is empty, or overexcitement is empty. So that's where you should work. Whatever it is that you can't accept, don't want to look at, don't want to look on, look at that. Find the emptiness in that. Take it as you're going. Write a story about it, and live with the story. And sometimes we carry these things at a level of consciousness that's not, you know, that we don't know. And when an insight comes out, in my experience it's because I was carrying that koan in my subconscious, not in the forefront of my awareness.

[08:33]

Suddenly, an insight arises. There's some concentration on that question all along. I can write the question, but I'm sure as hell I can't write the story. It's too mysterious. Only when the answer comes. Well, you're making up the story. Yeah, but you're making up the story. Well, question, story, answer, I don't know what the difference is between them. things that, you know, like something comes up or, you know, life's, you know, presented with a wall or whatever, where it come from, why it came up, who knows? You know, but it's there, it's something to deal with, and what the meaning of it is, who knows? So, how do you write a story about mysteries? You can write a question. That's good, too.

[09:34]

That's good, too. However it comes up that feels real for you is how to work with it. You don't have to make up something else. It's already got its own power and mystery and poetry for you. I'm just thinking, listening to the conversation, That's why every wave is the other side of every wave. So skin, flesh, bones and marrow is empty too. But the sea, that aspect of ourselves is empty. You have to take it as real, take it as meaningful, take it as painful.

[10:35]

You can't just say, oh, it's empty. You know, it has to really connect with your mind and your prejudices and your mind. You're going to write to me. Yeah. Paul? I can also say, that's one of the things I've noticed here. It's good. That's all we have. It's good. Say again? Oh, maybe so. That wasn't the part that I focused on. Yeah, we keep thinking emptiness, that there's form and emptiness surrounds it. But the teaching is that emptiness is right here. It's glued on.

[11:38]

What's all this about going down? You talk so much about concession. It's staying with the waves. I'm thinking of this a little bit, sorry for the speed. If you stay with the waves, they might take you deeper into your mind or your heart or your stomach or your body. Take you out of here. That's reality. Well, if you stay with the waves, you'll stay with the waves. That's a good question for you. To be continued.

[12:39]

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