So this evening we'll continue our discussion of Japanese monasticism and when we have reached what feels like a conclusion point on that, we'll pick up with some discussion that really continues over from this morning about the precepts and Kovin has said he would pose some questions for his colleagues on his right to address on those subjects but I think the starting point will be the continuation really of our discussion Wednesday night on Japanese monasticism. The remainder of the conference will really be in three sessions, a morning session Saturday, an afternoon session Saturday, no evening session Saturday and then a final session on Sunday afternoon and the format for that is going to be much more discussion with anyone

[01:05]

who wishes to participate generally on the subject of monasticism and issues for Buddhists in this country. So with that, let us turn to Japanese monasticism. How are we going to do that? I would like to invite any questions because when we finished, we finished late Wednesday and there wasn't an opportunity to put any questions to Pedagogy Roshi or to Kovin. So I'd first like to find out if there are questions there. I just wondered historically, Bob mentioned that the tradition, it's fairly traditional in Japan now for temple priests to marry and I just wonder, did the monastic system in Japan go for a long time as a celibate institution before that developed?

[02:09]

The other day, Dr. Bob Thurman talked about the structure of monasticism. Maybe he knows some more. And then, there's another speaker. That's called Katagiri Bob Thurman non-dualism. Bob Thurman talk. How about you, Bob? What did you have on that idea at that point? Did you have something on that? Shall I say something first? Actually, I'm not sure about this issue. It's a very complicated issue. I had the strong impression from my reading of biographies of Dogen and so forth, in English the little that I have, that Dogen was very determined about celibacy for the monks. And I think, Roshi, you mentioned earlier today that he said that monk meant celibacy

[03:12]

in Dogen's precepts. And then for laymen, it was just improper sexual behavior. But for the monk, it was celibacy, brahmacharya. Now, I had thought, the other day, one gentleman here told me that Saicho's ordination platform on Mount Hiei did not preserve any Vinaya ordination. This was a piece of news to me. I had always thought that Saicho's major battle about getting the ordination away from Nara Buddhism to Mount Hiei had to do with freeing the monastic entry from government bureaucratic control, which was a major problem in Japan. Japan, from the beginning of Buddhism, had a terrific problem getting free from the government. And always in my mind, the movement of Saicho and Kukai was the first big breakthrough in that. Nara Buddhism was really an extension of the imperial court, in a way, like a government bureaucracy. And only when they got to Mount Hiei, when the emperor moved the capital to Kyoto, and before that, Saicho was allowed to build a temple on Mount Hiei, a monastery on Mount Hiei,

[04:16]

and then a little later, Kukai was able to build a monastery on Mount, what's it called? These were the two first independent mountain monasteries in Japan. Now, this gentleman told me, is he here? I'm sorry, I don't have his name, he didn't say I don't see him. He was telling me that Saicho, in order to do that, Saicho had to sacrifice authority to confer the Vinaya bhikshu ordination. And he gave as an ordination a Bodhisattva ordination. And that he left, that he had to leave the ritu, or the Vinaya ordination lineage, in the hands of the monks of Nara, the big temples of Nara. So what that would mean, that even during the Heian period, the flowering of Saicho's Dharma on Mount Hiei, he had a new kind of monastic lineage of monks. And they were celibate monks too, and he had to think of them having to stay for 12 years on Mount Hiei and so forth. But his ordination in that was not from the original Vinaya lineage,

[05:18]

but rather was starting up a new kind of Bodhisattva lineage, which he had to do because he had to leave the Vinaya in the hands of the bureaucrats in Nara. He was unable to break that creed. That was a little disillusioning for me to hear that, and I'm in a state of doubt about that. Perhaps one of the other Roshis can mention, if they have some knowledge about that. I would still suspect, because of the nature of Saicho and the later generations of Tendai priests, up to those who ordained, in fact, Kukai, who ordained, in fact, Dogen, and Shinran, and Honen, rather, all of the great figures of the Kamakura period were ordained by the monks of Mount Hiei, and they were very determined about celibacy, and they kept bhikshu vows, but apparently, from what this gentleman told me, this was done on the basis of a new Mahayana lineage, which makes a big difference, actually. But still, I'm sure Saicho sneaked in as much bhikshu things as he could without being able to formally claim that this was a Pratyamoksha lineage. He had to say it was a Bodhisattva lineage. And according to this gentleman.

[06:19]

Now, be that as it may, that comes down to Dogen, and Dogen is ordained at Mount Hiei, and was ordained as a celibate monk, and I believe was a celibate monk all his life, insisted that monks were celibate, in other words, kept very clear the difference between a monk and a priest. A temple priest, a Shingon priest, or a later Pure Land priest, they were married, and the monastic thing was not an issue, but monks were monks, so that monk and priest were two very clearly different titles, as they had been in Chinese Buddhism. Dogen went to China, he took Chinese Buddhist issues very seriously, and so this was a very important part, I'm quite sure, of both Rinzai and Soto Zen, upright through the five mountain system, as tracked by the scholar Martin Kolkin, I forgot to bring that book tonight, but there's a very interesting book, everyone who is a Zen practitioner should try to read, called the Five Mountains, and it's called the Rinzai Zen Monastic Institution, and it is about Rinzai, but still it's about the history of Japanese monasticism.

[07:23]

His focus is on certain ensuji and other Rinzai monsters, but he talks about Dogen, and he talks about the basic change in the Vinaya and Chinese Chan that underlay the practices of Japanese Zen, in the context of monasticism, and he has some regulations from the medieval period, it's very interesting. In any case, the one thing that your question points to, and I think it's a very important thing to be taken into account in regard to American institutions, and I have actually some general things to say on both subjects, but maybe I'll wait for those, about American things, but the one major point is that the Meiji government definitely promulgated a law forbidding monks to remain celibate, and forcing monks to marry, and forcing monasteries and temples into private ownership, hereditary ownership, and they made a big policy out of this, and this was at a time when they were building up this board of rights, and they were building up this sort of national Shinto overseeing office, and which there was from about 1867 to 1870, when they first promulgated these rules, there was a terrible period, actually,

[08:26]

where all Japanese Buddhist temples and institutions were almost destroyed. It was sort of fomented by certain nationalistic Confucian-type and Shinto scholars over the previous several generations, and it reached a stage where they sort of turned, they got into some power with the government, and they turned all the people loose on all the different Buddhist temples, and there were some major temples burned, a lot of art treasures destroyed. The Americans who were in Japan at that time, that's when they got a lot of Japanese statues for the Boston Museum, which was lucky because they were being destroyed, actually, in Japan. And the reason the government did this is because when Amada, they were completely aware of the fact that the independent celibate status of a monastic institution, separating it from family lineages and blood lineages, and drawing its adherents on the basis of merit and enlightenment and meditative sincerity and this kind of thing from all around the nation,

[09:26]

gave the monastic institutions very powerful, which then also brought donations to the monasteries from the relatives of monks who came from all over the nation, gave the monasteries a very powerful, made them a very powerful force in society, and a sort of counterweight against this all-encompassing, the tendency of Japan's history for the government to become all-encompassing. And so they knew that the way to break this would be to make the monastery another sort of family dynasty, you know, and one person to kind of own it and make them a family, and this would ruin this sort of large Pascal base and the monastery becoming a kind of focus of a sort of non-nationalistic, sort of transcendentalistic individualistic energy, which it had always been, which it operates as. And so from that time, from 1867 until the modern time, I think the rule has been in the Zen institutions that the people who are in the process of training as students, they are celibate, I think, when they are apprentices to their teachers, something along the lines of what Goshi was telling us about, you know, when working under the teacher and absorbing the sort of pattern of the teacher, whereas the teacher might be married and have a family. But that once they then graduated, they then were, you know,

[10:28]

sort of graduated in some sense or returned to a hereditary family temple. Then they were expected to marry and produce an heir and so on. And so the set of precepts that comes down today in America has been influenced by this history, and I don't have a sort of definite that this and this is the influence, and this and this is what people should do about it, and we can't get to that stage so quickly. But the point is that it's yet another example of American Buddhists, whether or not they are from an Asian-derived tradition, responsibility to examine the history of that tradition, to take it right back as close to Shakti Muni Buddha as they can get it, in all of its levels, not just its enlightenment level, but also its institutional level, let us say, and then decide whether what has come to this situation or this condition in this country is what is most needed in this country. So this kind of history is something, in other words, that we all should learn, and especially those who consider themselves members of the Soto tradition or heirs, in some sense, American heirs of the Soto tradition, this is a matter for your very serious investigation, I think. And that's all I'll say on that particular question.

[11:32]

What do you... Kyriakoban, would you amplify? Do you want to add anything to that? Thank you. Thank you. You spoke everything. Further questions? Do you want to say something? He was just beginning. That was the beginning. I'll slow down. Settle back. This is actually the first time I have joined a serious question about practice and seek for true meaning of Vinaya.

[12:39]

I have never heard or discussed with anybody in Japan or here, which made me come out to join you. That's a very true story. My great-grandmaster's time, every ordained priest was encouraged to marry. Not by the government, but the order from the headquarter of the Soto school. What I remember is

[13:47]

in childhood memory, the smell of summer fish from the temple. Summer is autumn, early autumn fish. I had to smell that and felt very confused. Everything was in chaos right after the Second World War. That's how it was. This subject is to me a very serious question.

[14:53]

How to continue the practice of the Buddha's way? What is the origin of the Buddha's precepts? I still struggle, as each of you is also struggling about this subject. I hear the original so-called practice of moksha

[16:00]

has been developed by Shakyamuni Buddha. There was a discussion between Shakyamuni Buddha and his followers. Whenever some problem occurred, a student came up to discuss about what had happened and what they should do. And each time the answer started from exact acknowledgement of what actually happened to each member of the Sangha. And Buddha spoke, it is wrong action.

[17:02]

You confess good, you don't do it again. There, one of 250 precepts are recognized. In that way, in each case, this seera was set forth. That's what I have heard. I personally have a responsibility to observe our practice. Together with you all,

[18:05]

about the precepts we have transmitted and have been studying along everyday practice, that 16 precepts today, Katagiri Roshi was speaking, is what I am talking about. 16 are three refuges. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Three, four pure precepts, which is from ancient to Buddhist order,

[19:09]

we have been transmitting. And then 10 precepts, which Katagiri Roshi gave an English translation of each 10. Actually, spoken by Dogen Zenji, and I believe it was written down by Ijo Zenji, and the commentary was made by Bansho Gyoshu Zenji in later centuries.

[20:23]

Also, we have 10 major precepts, prohibitive precepts, through Bodhidharma, from the ancient Buddhist order, through Bodhidharma, and through Tendai order, and to Esai, Myozen Zenji and Dogen Zenji, transmitted. I must stop talking and give an opportunity for Katagiri Roshi to speak.

[21:40]

I have nothing special to say, but maybe I'm willing to accept your questions about the meaning of the precepts. I have a question for Kobun, because you didn't talk very much about your personal experience last night, and this is also for Katagiri too. But in terms of the Japanese monastic system, I look at the objective of the system to develop, in a sense, a strength of character and determination to practice throughout an entire lifetime in order to explore the Bodhidharma and the way. But also to develop a gentleness, which I feel from both of you,

[22:52]

that in a sense it's been successful. But I also have heard criticisms from two sides. One is from a Japanese priest who was visiting Kasahara, who felt that the American practice was too relaxed and too loose, and that people got away with too much, that they didn't get strong enough. And the counter-argument was that the Japanese practice is so stiff that people, after five years, they no longer want to sit Zazen anymore, they simply perform rituals, that there's a tendency to develop bullies, and things like that. I was wondering if you had some observations, personal observations, on the strengths and weaknesses of the Japanese system and how they might be implemented here. Thank you.

[24:02]

I'm very confused state, actually. I don't know what my nationality is now. I was pretty straight when I came here. Sorry. I have been celibate until I came to this country and became an American Japanese. Married and have two children, and still continue my family practice and father's practice and brotherhood practice with all of you.

[25:23]

I have all day had the great opportunity to introduce Buddha's way to many American students, a few Japanese students. I continue studying what this Buddha's precepts mean and what the internal recognition of each people, about their practice. I'm making my very best effort to find out where they are, where each people locate in this huge universe. It is too vague,

[26:28]

and my power to perceive where each students are is quite hard to observe. Physical movement of people is hard to follow where they are, how they live. It seems the nature of this time of history, we all have to move around. Family breaking up, family breaking up of daily contact between students, between teacher and student, so intense.

[27:31]

What do you mean when you say that? What do you mean when you say that? We don't know where people live. I mean where friends are living. So the occasional sitting together is the least proof of we are still close. And a few minutes of dog-san barely make this spark of meeting. And we have to wait another month or another half year to keep track of each other in terms of carrying the Sangha's unity.

[28:37]

To have communal life together is a really wonderful opportunity. Most of us have no luck like this. That's the reality. I would like to also encourage you to speak about how you feel about your practice and observing the conduct of your life. As the children of the Buddha and as the sister and brother to each other,

[29:44]

we call it to busso no hinde, brother and sister of the Buddha. As Dogen Zenji said, brother and sister of the Dharma should behave others more familiar people than yourself, which is based upon the basics of what precepts mean and what no-self means. Without no-self, you cannot observe other people closer than yourself.

[30:48]

Sensei, one thought before we get off of this. What I'm hearing from you is that the sense of community and of living together and being close to a teacher, that process is more important than the particular rules and so forth which are followed in establishing that community. In other words, the fact that a place like Kasahara exists and that people can live and work for a teacher is much more important than whether people follow exactly the same Japanese norms as would be the case at the age. As I said yesterday, a little bit about why I see the meaning of my existence here. To aim the circle of practice as a living example of living Parashara Mandala,

[32:04]

pure unity of people who feel deep friendship and support to each other, support from each other, which makes you feel no... you will continue to feel aloneness but no loneliness so far because of these friends supporting each other. That kind of sangha to establish is the least effort I can make. Of course, the monastic facility and living together

[33:19]

and continue practice whether four kinds of Buddhists together or two kinds of Buddhists together or one kind of Buddhists together which might make practice go easier, simpler and easier and maybe more powerful in one sense. But the transient nature of the community arising and falling and expanding and contracting in terms of quantity and quality of the sangha,

[34:23]

I have seen many phases of phenomena and I'm almost feeling helpless state. Only one thing I feel is to talk about or to discuss about world peace is rather easy but to feel the peace within you and share it with other people is very rare and hard. But I feel coming together and sit like this

[35:31]

and share the same subject at least to observe the same subject and discuss about it is a very wonderful thing, I think. Generally speaking, I think criticism toward Japanese Buddhism and criticism toward American Buddhism both are not exactly hit the bull's eye

[36:31]

because if you look at the Japanese Buddhism and the practice today and also American Buddhism today are just like a blur picture, photograph which are very blur because center, focus focus, we don't know what is a focus the focus is not exactly we are trying to take a picture that is our effort trying to if you go to Japan, you understand pretty well many monks, people make every possible effort to do but all efforts are completely out of focus do you understand what I mean? for instance, I mentioned focus is important if your focus is out of center whatever effort you make to try to establish

[37:35]

it doesn't develop well is that clear for you? for instance, if you swim in the ocean all you have to do is how to swim what is the center, what is the focus in order to swim 100% perfect everyone tries to live in that way but according to their own karmic life sometimes under certain circumstances you say I don't care but under the unconscious level everyone tries to do something perfectly don't you think so? even though you make a mistake even though you fail anyway you try to live in perfect perfectly so I think what is the center focus how we should have a right focus for instance, today I mentioned about precept

[38:37]

if you see the precept in terms of moral sense no matter how long you try to follow the precept you are not satisfied so what is the real precept how to obey the precept in order to bring the peace and harmony to your life and to the others this is very important now the Japanese people come to the United States and look at the American Buddhism and criticize I don't think this is right any kind of criticism doesn't hit the mark and also you go to Japan you criticize Japanese Buddhism that criticism doesn't hit the mark either so the important point is from now on what is the focus what is the important focus if you want to take a picture of the real Buddhism

[39:40]

from generation to generation we have to come back to anyway, once more again Buddha's Shakyamuni Buddha's life again and then watch carefully one by one beyond Japanese, Tibetan Buddhism Japanese Buddhism, Korean Buddhism, Chinese Buddhism anyway, learning carefully and also you have to go beyond then what is real Buddhism at that time, Buddhism coming up from the American heart otherwise you try to always imitate, criticizing and getting something good Buddhism and throwing away bad Buddhism if you do that obviously you are going to the Samsaric world don't you think so? so you have to anyway find the right focus where is the focus is for the Buddhism if you really want to take a real picture of the Buddhism in United States

[40:42]

each of you should take a very deep responsibility responsibility for that don't disappoint but don't be optimism don't be pessimistic still Buddhism is free anyway you are free to establish I talked to the Japanese monk in the age monastery also, most people criticize Japanese Buddhism but I don't think it is right still young monk there and life is free anyway so we should encourage how to establish Buddhism toward the future we should do it but most people think always present situation of Buddhism personally or individually or in public in terms of the past or custom how can you change? how can you develop? it's impossible

[41:43]

for instance, my case my teacher was a celibacy he was a pretty serious Zen priest and several monks who are one of my friends are also celibacy pretty good but in public as a monastery it's very difficult to see real spirit of Vinaya in Zen Buddhism but personally there are several people who don't appear in public but in the mountains nobody knows but still they are obeying real Buddhist life my teacher was celibacy but this is questionable my teacher was celibacy and nice priest and monk

[42:45]

but you know pretty well Japanese Buddhism situation most monks take care of their own temple not monastery small temples individual temples there and each temple has its own followers by which temple is supported so always the abbot has to take care of followers otherwise it's impossible to support so he kind of the abbot becomes very naturally what would you say what would you say trying to please then my teacher particularly my teacher is very concerned about

[43:45]

others feeling in general according to custom so then naturally because my teacher was celibacy so people don't see him people didn't see him as a usual monk usual priest but he was a little bit out of usual monk because he was celibacy this is common sense so very naturally he didn't want me to suffer from such difficulties so very naturally he encouraged me to get married and he never talked about real priest this is the situation but I'm not criticizing my teacher's attitude or present atmosphere of Japanese Buddhism I want to go to

[44:46]

like some monk visiting Tassajaro you guys are too loose, you know or to go to Japan and say oh I saw him whack that guy with the kyo-saku they're too tough, mean just sort of harping on some false without any special purpose but to make oneself feel better this sort of criticism I have to agree with you it doesn't hit any mark on the other hand the kind of constructive criticism when you say you want to look toward the future how to carry on Buddhist life which is free you cannot prevent people from taking constructive criticism that is to say looking for what might be faulty that has come from tradition Shakyamuni Buddha himself was the first person to criticize the Brahmins to criticize the Sramanas to criticize the different false views but not just because he wanted to make himself feel better by being mean to somebody but because he wanted to encourage people to use their good sense to open up their life, as you put it

[45:50]

to have the proper way just like you just now criticized some people who criticized and your criticism really hit the mark right? so that was good criticism so therefore now my criticism is probably missing by a mile I understand your criticism I understand but criticism shouldn't be to destroy the present the atmosphere of human life or in terms of past views or in terms of certain views anyway criticism must be something helpful for situations for human beings to facilitate the development of the human life human world under all circumstances that criticism should be acceptable that's what I mean so criticism coming up naturally so I have to receive any kind of criticism

[46:50]

because I cannot stop criticism do you understand? even though I say so many people criticize so I cannot escape any kind of criticism but point is I have to how to face the criticism from the people and what kind of criticism I should digest in order to facilitate the development of Buddhism in the future do you understand what I mean? so I am welcome to give me the criticism I am but I don't want to I don't want to put me down I don't want to put down the people's life or Buddhism toward the future I want to get into some specifics criticism or not some years ago I'm sure you remember

[47:52]

Suzuki Roshi used to talk about what a funny place America was because here the layman looked like monks and the monks looked like laymen and I think that's one of the things that would be helpful for us to look at in terms of what we're doing that is clear and what we're doing that we feel confused about and that part of our doing that is to look at the tradition as we think it has occurred because I think part of what is happening for many of us here is some idea we have particularly Japanese Soto Zen that has come to us so maybe what we're doing is based on our understanding rather than some more accurate perception of the tradition I think that there are some unique things happening for us, one being that

[48:54]

laymen and women in this country do not take the view that some monks somewhere will be practicing the Buddha Dharma there's some real commitment on the part of many people who clearly lead a layman's life that they also want to practice meditation and they want to have some active life of practice so the classical distinctions between monk and layman may not be so useful that way but it does seem to me that there's some confusion about what are we, for those of us who have taken priest vows there's some confusion about what am I actually doing what does it mean for me to take these sixteen precepts in what sense in the wide stream of Buddhism, where do I fit in not so much as a question of wanting

[49:56]

someone else to tell me what to do but to understand how to use the tradition and the history as a resource as a source of some guidance and also as a base on which to proceed the fact that there are women practicing I think makes a big difference brings up issues in our practice and in our life together that I think are different than seem to have occurred so far I have a lot of questions myself about how have the precepts been followed and what is the history of the rules for conduct for both monastic and lay people not because I'm so interested in criticizing us or Japan, but because I want to understand what the possibilities are so we can begin to figure out okay, out of this tradition what can we

[50:57]

find that will help us live the lives we want to lead based on the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha I understand, but look at the present situation of Buddhism in the United States I think the atmosphere of Zen Buddhism in the United States is really open to both you know both to everyone the priest and lay Buddhists so I think this is a reality and then you have already a certain tradition of Buddhism which has been lasting for 10 or 20 years so it's pretty, even though 20 years of history it's very difficult to say this or that so I think a little bit

[51:59]

I think it should take a little more time to decide what to do so in order to do this I think we should focus on studying the real meaning of precept real meaning of emptiness real meaning of interdependent co-origination anyway, teaching you have to really focus deeply study and carefully and then you gradually you can find by yourself I don't want to give you any answer to this because I am very it is difficult for me to say this or that OK, can we start with the precepts? Yeah, precepts is generally speaking, even though I can't tell you the precepts for instance, I mentioned already precepts but Dogen Zenji if Dogen Zenji tried to have ordination as a priest

[53:01]

I think before you receive 16 precepts in other words, before you become a priest I think 8 precepts before we say one day monk living in the monastery the other lay buddhist OK every day you have to live in vow I am I am today follow this precept 8 precepts what are those 8 precepts? well, I forgot exactly but anyway you shouldn't watch the movie or you shouldn't dance with the music and you shouldn't be engaged in sexuality for one day, etc. every day you

[54:01]

take a vow like this as a lay buddhist living in the monastery this kind of practice he asked the monk and people and then after that if you still want to do want to have proper lay ordination you can do it and also teacher if teacher see him anyway his desire to become monk I think he will do it something like that so I don't think the system of ordination in United States is quite different we don't do it like this so this kind of things we should pay once more again to that what is the real sense of ordination precepts you know

[55:04]

talk about celibacy in Sanskrit in Sanskrit I don't know, in Tibetan it's called Nyene Pasta Pasta excuse me yes I hear this talk about celibacy and there might be individuals in Zen center who take celibate vows for periods but Suzuki Roshi had a very profound effect on Zen center to say the least I remember things he said like I remember once Lori Palmer asked him Lori had taken a vow of celibacy and said Suzuki Roshi some people say you can't experience life fully unless you have sex and other people say that you can't get enlightened if you do what do you think and Suzuki Roshi said well it's probably good not to have too much sex but maybe you

[56:07]

shouldn't have too little either and another time I remember him saying sex is like brushing your teeth it's a good thing to brush your teeth but it's not a good thing to brush your teeth all day long and I think in Zen center in general because we've been talking about celibacy that sex is thought of do you see it actually causing some harm is it making waves is it hurting somebody and it's just pretty much for you to notice for the feedback to come but to seriously talk about there being anything other than some limited celibacy here you might as well talk about it as going to the moon I think I understand what you said but there are a few points one point is you should understand the teaching you can give from the teacher based on the concern with the circumstances

[57:10]

for instance look at the 16th, 17th 1960s you know completely confused lots of hippies I'm not criticizing hippies life you can imagine what's going on there how can you control completely because many different people come up groping for something peaceful so can't you can't you put such a person in a completely different world so called precessed celibacy can you do that that's what Suzuki Roshi did according to the circumstances according to individual he said like that but it is I don't think it is real meaning et cetera okay and that is one point so teaching what I want to say is teaching is taught according

[58:12]

to circumstances according to individual you should understand that point secondly Nogen Zenji mentions even ancestors even the buddhas teachings are not right exactly do you understand I'm not criticizing teachers ancestors teachings but that means that doesn't mean you should criticize ancestors that doesn't mean you shouldn't trust in ancestors buddhas but what I want to tell is real the focus in order to develop real buddhas teachings is where teacher or teaching written in the scripture where energy real main energy coming from you that's why you have to

[59:13]

continually check and examine yourself what kind of attitude you are taking toward human life this is the point that's why Nogen Zenji says ancestors teachings are also always not right ok is that clear a comment really a question about celibacy which my sense is I don't understand celibacy as practiced in a monastery seems to me to be an expression or a manifestation of a larger commitment of which it's just one part say a commitment to a life of restraint and one question I'd be interested in your response to possibly also Rinpoche as well is what is the effect for everyone

[60:14]

if there is in the community a group of monks living a celibate life practicing we talked about practicing celibacy benefits everybody I'm quite curious about that as a possibility there may in fact be people in this society who would entertain such a commitment my suspicion is that linking celibacy to the absence of sexual activity understates minimizes what celibacy is understates understates say too little minimizes celibacy is well I think I understand but whatever you say well the desire celibacy is particularly if you live your life as celibacy I think you have to keep away

[61:14]

from sexuality this is most difficult point and also sexuality is real main point of desire coming up constantly whatever you say less desire whatever it is very strong main desire stream of desire from that desire many kind of desire coming up I experienced this one anyway this is many so I think you should read study the scriptures from now on carefully for instance maybe you are surprised but if you marry you never be Buddha you never be Arhat be free from complete freedom because desire is there if you want to be a priest that's why ancient time

[62:15]

not only Buddhism but also Christianity whatever it is they always emphasize celibacy it's not the prohibition of sexuality that's coming up naturally if you are serious of seeking for the truth naturally coming up so I am not criticizing celibacy is wrong or celibacy is good but you have to check yourself ok I have a follow up to Yvonne's question as I understand Yvonne's question was about structure of Buddhist practice and practice might take in America and I hear both you saying pay more attention to our inner practice pay more attention to understanding some of the things we have been talking about all week here

[63:15]

and not to worry so much about what form it takes if we pay deep attention to our practice it will then take the right form somehow maybe in another 20 years or 50 years I don't mean you shouldn't you shouldn't worry I think you should worry but you shouldn't be buckled down anyway you shouldn't put yourself down anyway do you understand what I mean it's very serious situation otherwise you cannot develop real Buddhist spirit in the United States I don't mean you should be taken up you should take a nap in the present situation no you cannot do it so when Yvonne asked how do we connect them to keep from taking a nap what do we need to know from maybe Japanese Buddhism so we don't go to sleep no don't see only Japanese Buddhism that's why I said you have to anyway study carefully

[64:16]

what real spirit of Buddhism as a whole that's why you have to study the Tibetan Buddhism and Korean Buddhism Chinese Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism and then what is real Buddhism that's what I want to tell you otherwise you are always stuck in a certain frame so called Japanese it's really stinky you cannot be free from that that's what I want to tell you everyone wherever I may go otherwise you cannot be free from Americans Americans are stinky Japanese are stinky anyway so you have to learn really seriously ok in the context of that comment that David mentioned about sex with the 1960s and we look at 1980s now

[65:18]

when AIDS will become epidemic quite likely is it possible that the precept about celibacy has to do with health and just maintaining kind of your life and being able to maintain a monastic order without threat of certain diseases which will actually influence that is one idea which is very changeable under certain circumstances you can accept such idea of celibacy pretty easily situation is how can you receive celibacy in whatever situation you have to focus on celibacy if you have lots of energies you have sexuality how can you be present right in the middle of celibacy with relax don't you think so under certain circumstances

[66:19]

and if you see the human world human life in terms of give and take if I do this I feel good at that time you can take it very easy without no questions without any questions but that idea of celibacy is very changeable just like floating the grass on the water when that situation change it's gone then you have to get another idea of celibacy or not celibacy etc so I think we should understand what is real celibacy why we have to emphasize celibacy ok couple of things I I feel like I don't want to just let that quote go by without commenting it feels to me in the context

[67:22]

like he was saying something to Loring, like he said to Betsy who was feeling very self-righteous about being a vegetarian please have a hamburger you know it's like if somebody is caught up in feeling that they're being very self-righteous then Suzuki Rush would say why don't you do something else but do you think he'd say that to you? or to me? I don't know I wouldn't take that sort of a general statement no he told me he didn't want me to have a girlfriend for five years and I told him forget it I kind of didn't think he'd say that to you he is happy he really is happy so what what I want is I want just talk about desires you know I want some opportunity before I'm dead possible to have some situation where there's some real encouragement for for quite strict practice

[68:23]

and I feel I feel that it's slipping away from us here in all parts of Zen Center including Tassajara under the pressure of the guest season there's no real experience to practice Tassajara all summer there's some and I just I just want it it's hard for me to do it without the kind of support of being in a group some place where there are a group of people who want to do it together it's not something you do very easily by yourself it's really hard and I just like to see us offer that kind of opportunity to people because I think it's a very valuable opportunity this life of restraint that you're talking about I think it's just the most valuable thing we can offer and I don't see us offering as much as I would like and I don't see the permission in this community for offering it no no don't misunderstand I'm not talking about

[69:23]

celibacy is wrong celibacy is good I'm not talking about this one because even though whatever kind of lifestyle you have you can learn lots through the celibacy you can learn not celibacy you can learn what human life is I have something to talk the importance of celibacy is not for the purity of somebody who keeps celibacy importance is not to stain others by your action that's what the meaning of celibacy is if you sleep with somebody you should take care of that person and leave the monastery that's the meaning of celibacy I would like to suggest something

[70:28]

we have in the room about maybe 50-60 people and there is only one person who is celibate maybe it would be nice to ask that one person who has been celibate since he was 4 years old maybe something about the issue would that be ok? at some point it will be convenient there is one thing I would like to remark I don't know a number of you people must have heard a tape made by Jack Cornfield the title of the tape was Seven Factors of Enlightenment incidental to that he mentions very remarkable comment about intimacy and he previously had mentioned how different teachers that he had known good Dharma Masters wonderful Dharma Talkers could not cope

[71:31]

with their personal life in their sexual situation and he went on to say that people said maybe it is in this most intimate relationship with a man in a married relationship that is where we meet our Master in coping with this intimate relationship and I think somehow you know a word does not have just one definition and I think you can maybe get the wrong idea if you think that being celibate only means not having sexual relation that is not what it means but I would say

[72:32]

maybe there is a quotient he is the only one that has not commented on this issue incidentally no I have heard in some schools in Buddhism the practitioner has to state what his practice is going to be it does not make any difference if he wants to be married that is ok if he does not want to be married that is ok but he must state to the Sangha what his practice is going to be ok maybe the Tarot talk Tarot talk teacher I think I want him to talk about that now in the expression in the expression for celibacy

[73:34]

the Buddhist expression is Brahmacharya Brahma signifies in this context liberation and therefore Abramacharya the opposite means Charya means activity so Brahmacharya means activity oriented to liberation Abramacharya means activity not oriented to liberation yes so just basically to start with this the verbal meaning of it therefore Brahmacharya means

[74:36]

a person who implies both that a person is who is a Brahmacharya is a person whose deeds or action or practice is oriented to liberation and who has abandoned practices or deeds that are not oriented to liberation this is the basic verbal meaning of Brahmacharya and as the opposite of Abramacharya yes the idea is that therefore that non-Brahmacharya action is not in accord with liberation does not tend towards liberation therefore it was considered from Buddha's time that if one was that serious about reaching liberation to put all ordinary activities below it and one could act in tune with liberation this was best if possible if one could but if one cannot

[75:38]

do that then at least one should stay between such an orientation and the orientation of sexual misconduct of just complete sexual looseness and lack of sexual guideline or restraint at all which is the third, there are three levels that's just a general sort of beginning but I can get the point that you all are very much worried about celibacy and non-celibacy and a lot of things I'd like you to ask me what it means to you what is it that's your problem with it in specific I'd like to I'd like to I just want to say one thing as a footnote in relation to what Blanche said for which I was very grateful and that is that just remember to put in mind Blanche felt the need of perhaps some form of a support group that was a little more intent on practice as she understands it, which I don't know

[76:39]

all the details of which I haven't lived in in this community but other people looked a little worried about that in the sense that they might be called upon to be a little more strict but this is the point that I think has to do with what Colman was saying about four parts of Sangha and two parts of Sangha, that is the Sangha of the two, layman, laywoman and monk and nun, as opposed to the Sangha just of layman, laywomen in America everyone almost has to be the same so if there's somebody who wants to go into a sort of stricter realm of certain kind of practice and behavior and discipline control and restraint, others feel kind of threatened if they do it or else they feel they should go with them and all do it or else no one should do it and this is so stupid because why is it that just because if you're a layman and you don't want to be a layman like you imagine some peasant in Burma is all he does is plant rice and takes the food to the monk and that's it, that's it you don't want to just work and let somebody else attain enlightenment you want to be a layman who does practice and gets enlightened but why can't you do that

[77:39]

and also support someone who's going to be not a layman who's going to full time try to get enlightened not even going to dig and potato you know, be like an Indian monk, not like a Japanese or Chinese monk, be like an Indian monk who won't work because they might kill a bug in the ground how come you don't want to be generous enough to support like a core group, let's say in a sector of your large community which core group wants to live at a sort of super scale of like observing every little finger wiggle and doing this having pots of water on a shelf over their head and wants to live like the real old fashioned sangha like controlling every little tiny little bird, you know just because they want to do it, they should be supported to do it, they should be kept like a little jewel a little clockwork in the middle that wants to do it and we should be willing to go out and work and struggle and then try to practice too and yet also support people who want to do a total of 24 hours a day, that's all that's a footnote, I'm sorry, now questions on celibacy that's it that's it that's it Bob question question on what you said

[78:41]

I just wanted to add that there is a lot of discussion around here about developing a cloistered area for that and you know at some point we might come to that agreement to build up a traditional area here for that sort of practice, I think that would be great and I think what you said about everybody doesn't have to do everything together, there can be this group that does this and that group does that, I think that's very good, thank you thank you I'm sorry to intrude on what Rivichev was going to speak another non-celibate had the sound off I wanted to say first my support for the last statement I don't necessarily completely share her frustration at this point, but I certainly support a much stricter kind of I'm sorry I just wanted to say a general statement in support of Blanche and the need to create this kind of group and let people go out and practice

[79:43]

because I have a feeling myself that I might want to do that someday, although that's not my motivation right now in terms of asking a question of Rivichev I probably not going to like this, but basically what I'm wondering is I keep trying to put things into some terms I get my hands around, and what I want to do is just say very clearly could somebody in Tibet who was doing this practice of being able to go from the first level of shamatha to the ninth level of shamatha in six months and then presumably develop that kind of concentration which bores through to the heart of things and really lets them obtain in a few years a real experience of emptiness could a person do that do people in Tibet do it at the same time they're having sexual relationships and going off and those kinds of things ...

[80:54]

A lay person can definitely achieve those things that you say ... Now, I just want to say one thing he says in general that I think what he said just now about how that this idea of Japanese Buddhism Tibetan Buddhism, American Buddhism is a little stinky and I want to say I like that a lot ... I definitely agree with that I think it's a very excellent point he said as Buddhists we shouldn't look at traditions or teachings in that way ... If we talk about how

[82:13]

if we'd rather talk about how Buddha's teaching or Buddha's way was practiced in Tibet and how Buddha's way was practiced in Japan then we're talking ... The ways of studying the Buddha's Dharma in those different countries will be different due to different circumstances and conditions and historical factors ... This has to do with the different people and the different cultures and does not have to do with the Dharma itself ... No, no.

[83:14]

So therefore I like it that people are looking for different things to try to learn more and more about general Buddhism they should therefore be careful when they talk about different traditions and talk about it that is the way Buddhism was understood in Japan that is the way Buddhism was understood in that part of Tibet and so forth and keep it very clear qualify their judgments and their understandings in that way that will be very excellent ... For example the teaching of Zen as taught in Japan seems to me from my little exposure to it as if it was a way of approaching Buddhism at a very high level ... It seems to me that way It's just my general sort of quick view ... The way that I am used to teaching

[84:16]

in Westerners and the way that Buddhism is often taught in some areas in Tibet in some contexts in Tibet is the way you teach beginners how they get going, how they get started from the beginning ... So if someone has already achieved certain high stages of realization then it's not really necessary to go in this graded way that I usually prefer to go ... So therefore these two approaches are different ways of bestowing the teachings different ways of using the teachings and studying them and there's not really any difference in the teachings ... If you don't understand this clearly and you think that each different kind of teaching

[85:17]

is sort of a version of the whole teaching and has to be taken to the exclusion of others as a whole or not taken then you are very much and since the Buddha teaching is so vast and so varied in so many cultures to so many different kinds of disciples even in one culture there's a great danger or almost certainty that you will do what is known as the repudiation of dharma, a very grave sin in all Buddhist cultures ... Therefore this is something you should all understand and it made me think of it hearing Katagiri Roshi's statement about stinky ... [...] Bob, I have a question having to do with what the practice of the teaching of the technique was in the Tibetan monastery

[86:17]

for dealing with sexual energy amongst monks coming in where presumably I assume, I may be wrong there that there was an expectation of no sexual activity what then is done with sexual energy? ... [...] The key point here is that this notion about, you know, sexual, insatiable sexual energy,

[87:29]

you know, and everybody like bubbling and grumbling with sexual energy and this uncontrollable appetite to all these people, is not in fact the case in the experience of the Tibetans or the experience of many of the Buddhist cultures, particularly in Tibet. The main thing, in our understanding, the main source of people breaking vows and engaging in sexual activity is their association, in other words, their circumstances. If people are living in the middle of a situation, like a lay situation, where there's a lot of sexuality, there's a lot of body, there's a lot of sexual movement, activity, and temptation, then they will feel that sexual restraint is a tremendous problem and there will be a lot of people abandoning their vow. If, however, an environment is created where this kind of temptation and thought and activity and so forth is very much minimized and very non-evident, then, in fact, it's not such at all a tremendous problem at all. For example, in Tibetan monasteries, dirty jokes are absolutely forbidden.

[88:43]

The lay people are not allowed to sleep at night, to spend the night in the monastery. If the monks live with what we call unguarded, the gates of their senses, and they're seeing people having sex or making movements suggestive of sex, they're hearing sexual sounds or sexual stories or having sexual anecdotes told and things like this, then their mind will definitely turn in that direction and their energy will definitely go that way. I can agree that in America it must be very difficult to be celibate, what I see around. There's the television, there's all kinds of like sexy business and violence and all kinds of things going on there all the time. And if people add to that not being able to control their mind or know much about how

[89:57]

their mind works, and then all this taggy-toogy business going on all around, it will turn upside down, everything, any vows. Therefore, if you have people who feel, they and or their teachers feel that for their particular progress they need to take all of their energy and put it in a certain way, which will include an abstention from sexuality, if that should be the case, and they wish to practice that way, if they can get a place where they have a very carefully protected culture or environment, a separate kind of culture from the ordinary culture, then they will be able to take that energy and use it in other ways that they want, sublimated ways that they want, very easily. It's such a protected environment. So, that's what I'm trying to say, that if you have people who feel, they and or their put it in a certain way, if that should be the case, and they wish to practice that way,

[90:53]

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