I think for the sake of everyone, we will go up to 9 o'clock, but not beyond 9 o'clock. To continue the discussion of monasticism, particularly with its development in China and Japan, Thurman is going to speak about monasticism in China, and then Shabagiri Roshi and Melvin Chino are going to talk about what I think of as the Heiheiji days, where each of them was trained at and received at Heiheiji. So, Bob. Okay. Everybody looks wise now. But I won't talk so long today.

[01:03]

We are basically going to talk about monasticism in China and Japan, and Buddhist monasticism in those countries. I can't talk extensively about the history of monasticism in China. I can refer those who are really interested to the works of Holmes Welch, who wrote a number of books, Chinese Buddhism, Buddhism under Mao, Chinese Buddhist monasticism, several books like that, in which he mainly studies the modern Chinese monasteries and even Chinese Buddhism under the Communist occupation and its vicissitudes. But he casts some glance back into the history of Buddhism in China. Another good book is Arthur Wright's book, Buddhism in Chinese History, for those who are interested in that. In general, you will find Chinese historians completely neurotic about the role, just as Japanese historians and Indian historians will be fairly neurotic about the role of Buddhism in the history of their civilizations. Because with modern times, with intellectuals looking back on their civilization

[02:05]

in the light of Western colonial domination of Asia, they sort of all of them look back and pointed the finger at Buddhism as having been that which had weakened them as a nation, as a military nation, and therefore had left them vulnerable to Buddhism. And so people like Hu Shi and the modern writers and the Chinese, they all sort of blame Buddhism and they kind of try to repress the Buddhist moment in their civilizations. And they try to sort of act like, well, thank God with Neo-Confucianism, we got rid of Buddhism finally. Just like the Vedanta Hindus say, thank goodness by the time of Neo-Hinduism in the medieval period, we got rid of the debilitating influence of all these Buddhist monks. So you won't get a very good picture, in a way, of the role of Buddhism in those civilizations from many conventional types of history works, works of history. In fact, in the case of China, there was a lot of resistance by the Chinese to the introduction of, by the Chinese governments and the Confucians to the introduction of monasticism. From little things like, for example, it was considered by Confucians

[03:07]

that shaving your head was a disrespect to your parents and your ancestors, and was a terrible sin, therefore, to shave your hair, because cutting it off was really putting down your ancestors. To the idea that people should be free of tax to the emperor. To the idea that it took 200 years for the monks to convince the Confucian scholars and the ministers that a Buddhist monk did not have to bow down to the emperor or the duke. The emperor were petty emperors in many times in Chinese history. The Chinese nation was not at all unified into a single empire in a great many of its periods. And this was a tremendous hardship. And then finally, the idea of not procreating and producing a descendant to worship you at the ancestral tablets. The whole problem of tribal society concerned with its genetic continuum, dealing with this concept that we've introduced in the last few days of a monastic core cell in that society as being, in a way, the issue or outcome of that society, but as being a non-survival oriented cell.

[04:08]

A place where the energy of the beings of the society would be turned into the individual's personal liberation rather than in any obvious utilitarian benefit of the nation. It was something that was extremely difficult for the Chinese to listen to. The ruling clans, classes, and the emperors of China and their ministers, this was very hard for them to hear. And they resisted it very powerfully. And therefore, for example, historians of Chinese Buddhism have what they call the great decay theory. And that is that they think that the reason that Buddhism was popular for that brief moment in Chinese civilization, when the Chinese uncharacteristically turned inward and got away from good cooking, and good furniture making, and all kinds of very good attention to the outward material, this brief moment, was only because they were so shocked that the Han Empire fell apart when it did. That they lost all faith in life, and they lost all the taste for good cooking,

[05:10]

and they lost the taste for the good family life, and they got into Buddhism. The fact that they went on with Buddhism steadily for the next 1800 years, sort of as an awkward fact that they pass over, that this shock lasted for 1800 years, in other words, is something that they don't really take into account. But the fact that the most glorious periods of Chinese art history developed in the Tang and Song dynasties, were when Buddhism was at its height in Chinese civilization, these awkward facts are usually ignored or left to the side. And they sort of jump, in cultural terms, from the writers of the late Han period to the Neo-Confucians in the second millennium, after the fall of the Song, or during the late Song. Once, however, if we avoid that idea, and we realize that, in fact, in China, there were a lot of people who really liked monasticism once it came in. That, in fact, if you look into the ideas that Confucius tried to promote, the ideas of rong compassion, the ideas of li benevolence, I mean, propriety, or what I think probably should be translated graciousness,

[06:13]

a central Confucian virtue, please come in if you're coming, a central Confucian virtue, the ideas of justice, which is the Chinese character for I, the ego put under rulership, and so forth. If you understand these Confucian ideas, you can see that the Buddhist ideas of karma, and of ethics, and of love and compassion, and of selfless service of others, and so forth, these ideas are very much carrying out Confucius' wish. And, in fact, the monastic institution, as we've already discussed, and I won't belabor, the monastic institution becomes the educational institution that, in a way, Confucius might have wished for. Of course, Confucius, in his own time, never dared go quite that far, and he would have been nervous about lack of progeny, and going so much against the way of the ancestors, probably. But, on the other hand, when he was sick and tired of the bad rulers, and saw how drastic it was to get people out of the stream of the ordinary tribal behavior,

[07:17]

to really develop themselves and perfect themselves as noble persons, I'm sure he probably would have appreciated the strategy of a monastery. In any case, the Buddhist introduction of Buddhism can be seen as reinforcing, certainly, for example, Taoism, which was the Chinese intellectual elite's form of Vedanta. In other words, they could retire from government service, living on the estate earned by previous generations' service of the government, and then they could devote their attention to the eternal, and get out of the constant conformity and constant pressure to simply be involved with the tribe. This was very much reinforced by things like Shunyata. They loved the Vimalakirti Sutra, for example, the Taoists. Samgyao, when he read the Vimalakirti Sutra, he said, Oh, now I know what Laozi really wanted, and the writings of Zhuangzi and Laozi are like dust in the feet of Vimalakirti, he said. Samgyao was a great, he was a schoolmaster, as you know, of Taoism and Confucian classics before he became the disciple of Kumarajiva in the 5th century. So Buddhism, in fact, fulfilled many of the basic humanistic ideals

[08:18]

that existed in Chinese civilization previously, rather than being a tremendous wrench against the fabric of Chinese civilization. And the Buddhist monastic institution, which is our particular focus, particularly provided a very important outlet or escape valve for many people who were really, probably felt quite imprisoned within the very tight Chinese clan system. Once they got permission from the rulers to have a monastic institution, then you have nuns, very happy to get away from the Lao Tai Tai, the old grandmother who was the arch-ruler of the Chinese family and to whom any young wife was a complete slave. They would love it, they'd go and be a nun, the mere price of their hair and a new set of clothes, and they could meditate and learn something and learn to read and so forth. There was no other way for them to do so in those early days. So the many sensitive women who were tired of slaving under the old grandmother and being sent off to the widow's house or something if they didn't produce a son and so on were very happy to do it. Many peasants who were tired of planting rice, many soldiers who were sick of fighting dumb wars for dumb dukes.

[09:20]

It became very popular. And then we see a pattern in Chinese history from the early period when it first gets accepted after the Han, around 3rd, 4th century, that every third or fourth generation in any dynasty in any part of China, someone had to come along and he would have a big change of heart and he would start confiscating monasteries, defrocking monks and nuns, and completely building up Confucianism again. And of course people have taken this to think that this was reasserting of the great old Chinese spirit and all this and that, but what they... And so this shows that really Buddhism never was comfortable with China. It always maintained a certain tension with the native culture, just as it did in India, as it does in every country, because of its transcendentalist thrust, its counter to the national ego that it manifests. And yet the other side of that story is, of course, that the other two generations Buddhism was becoming so popular, so much of the energy of the nation was going into Buddhism that the poor third generation ruler would like inherit his throne, you know,

[10:24]

and he would ask his ministers to, let's see, like tax rolls and how many acres are producing how many kilos of rice and how much this and that is coming, and he would say, What? Three quarters of the land my grandfather owned now belongs to Buddhist monasteries? What? A hundred thousand people have been ordained in the last 50 years and they're missing this and this soldier and this and this worker? Wait a minute. So then in the youthful part of their life they'd have a big purge and then they'd take back half of the land. Because the land, of course, is the taxes, you know. Land is your economy, your exchequer, you know. So then they would have a big purge. But then usually even those rulers, often in the later part of their lives, they'd feel really worried that they'd be going sent to hell, you know, and they'd get down there and a monkey couldn't save them. And so they'd build up some monasteries and temples toward the end of their life and then this process would start all over again. Everybody would run out of the kitchen and run out of the rice field and run back to the monastery to do zazen, thank God, to get away from planting rice. Did you ever think about planting rice? Bent over to run 12 hours a day in a wet thing with your feet in the wet, you know. How much preferable to doing zazen sitting there non-dually

[11:28]

letting someone else plant the rice. Tremendously much more comfortable. So of course a lot of people were there for the wrong reasons, of course. In any case, it was again and again a very popular institution. Now, Zen, for example, when we come to Zen, I'll try to be brief, I will, I really will. When we come to Zen, when we come to Zen, then we see a very interesting phenomenon. And that is, Zen is supposedly, Zen first comes in with Bodhidharma as a Siddha tradition, what we call in India and Tibet, a Siddha tradition of great Siddhas, people who don't need the institutions, although I like to see it in a non-dual different way, in other words. Many people see the Siddhas like Naropa in India, the great Naropa, or someone like Bodhidharma. And Bodhidharma saying to the Emperor Wu of Liang, you know, no merit in building temples, forget you. I like to see it not just as that he didn't like temples or monasteries, because in fact he founded a monastic lineage, but I like to see it as these Siddhas are people who are so well trained by the monastery that they can spread from that to build other monasteries. They have, in other words, when they leave the monastery,

[12:28]

it isn't because they're sick of the monastery. Shantideva also left the monastery. But when they leave, it isn't because they're sick of the monastery, it's because the monastery has become completely ingrained in their heart. And they have a monastery in their heart, and they can go anywhere where they go as a monastery. And therefore when they go to some completely barbarian country, where there are a bunch of cannibals or warriors or whatever, pretty soon this monastery in their heart, where there's no longer an outside monastery, immediately results in the building of an outside monastery, which just comes right out of their heart. So in other words, the progression in India of Hinayana monastic Buddhism, Mahayana messianic Buddhism, and then Siddha Buddhism, outside the scriptures as you would say in Zen, or direct mind kind of Buddhism, direct heart Buddhism, is not a matter of one outgrowing the other and throwing the old one away. It's a matter of each one collapsing like a kaleidoscope, like a telescope, taking the other one as it lands inside itself. You know, like telescoping inside it. So that the Mahayana has the Hinayana inside it, and then the Vajrayana adepts, they have both Mahayana and Hinayana,

[13:29]

and all of the sutras they contain inside their heart. This is a much more fruitful way, I think, of seeing it than the old dualistic way people used to say, or people like to rationalize, people who are lazy to really discipline themselves and really become transcendentally renunciant. They say, oh, now I've ran away from monastery, therefore I don't ever have to go. Therefore I can just indulge myself and be here now, and just be in that groove, and then I'll have done everything better than a monastery, which of course is false, because if one hasn't first gained some control of the passions and free of them, then one cannot combine and become non-dual even about passions, because then one will be non-dual in the wrong ways. The passions will be non-dual about you, and then you'll just continue to be their tool for the next million, billion millennia, until you run back and meet another Rosh sometime who helps you turn it around in another monastery. So if you see that, then you see the Zen, which supposedly is beyond the monastery, as being in fact the fruit of the full monastic scale training of India, and being ready to reach out to barbarians,

[14:31]

which were plenty of them all around. China was always a bit backward from India, in fact. And when they come there then, what do they do? The Zen, they say, we don't need this and that, and they go up in some mountain, but what happens is actually that Zen is the one who preserves true monasticism in China. In fact, the other monastic schools, and the other so-called sutra schools, which they made one fatal flaw. Because they were not looking quite freshly at the new reality, and they didn't really study the Vinaya really that well, and they didn't read in the Vinaya what Buddha said, which was that our Vinaya rules are adapted to time and place. And therefore in different countries and circumstances and eras, you have to adapt certain things. You can't just plug along like it's some kind of dogma. Except about the basic, not killing and so on. But certain things about monastic establishment, you have to keep changing. And these Siddhas came and they said, wait a minute. These emperors around here, this Chinese bureaucracy, Chinese tribal attitude is such that whenever we get too monasticized and too nice, and too many people meditating, somebody's going to come and confiscate everything. Besides, the monks who live in the city

[15:32]

running after the different donors all the time, they become corrupted. And they just think about getting donors all the time. And therefore they're vulnerable to the purge that will happen every three or four generations. So this is not like India, where there's a tradition that you can just go and beg, and the ruler's pride is in providing free lunch. This is the Protestant China, where there's no free lunches. So therefore, if we want our monasticism to be strong, then we should go to the mountain and support ourselves, and we'll change that one rule in the Vinaya, in the Indian Vinaya, very important rule in the Indian Vinaya, that a monk should not work, that a monk should not plow the ground. And so then the Zen masters are the ones who changed that rule. And they said, actually, no work, no food. That business, you know, that is so famous. And that meant that the monks became self-reliant, did not rely on the patronage of the politics, of the political rule, and therefore became more powerful in a way than the political rule, and therefore became the ones when the other people, in 845, for example, when there was this tremendous purge of all the city monasteries throughout China, the only ones who survived were Zen.

[16:33]

And then the Zen, far from being scripturalist or monastery-less, became the school that preserved all the scriptures, preserved all the monasteries, preserved all the images, and all of the arts and culture of Buddhism in China was preserved, in fact, by Zen, which supposedly didn't need any art and culture or scriptures or nothing. So the great iconoclastic Siddha school, in fact, preserved all the icons in China, in fact. Similarly, I think there's a similar process in Japan, where the monastic institutions closely connected to the government always had difficulty developing their independence from the government. They were very much controlled in Nara Buddhism, the government, they were a kind of extension of the government bureaucracy. Then the Heian period entered where Saicho and Kukai developed independent mountain monasteries, and they had some kind of independence, but still they had to run to Kyoto and get the patronage. Mount Hei was very close to Kyoto, and they were very nervous about what the different rulers had to say about it. So there was always a problem about getting independence from the government in Japan,

[17:35]

but inasmuch as any Buddhist order ever got independent from the government in Japan, eventually the Zen institutions did so. And so, in fact, Zen and Chan in China and Zen in Japan is that form of Buddhism which had almost the most powerful social impact on China and Japan, on its arts, on its culture, on its politics and so forth. And they did it in the same way Shakyamuni had his powerful impact in India, which we discussed, remember, the other day. In other words, Shakyamuni said, Oh, I'm getting off the throne, I'm not interested in politics. I'm just going to make this little sangha over here, where we're all going to drop out. Well, the sangha turns out to be in Golden Gate Park, and everybody begins to drop out. Half of West Point of his country drops out. So, in fact, it's a tremendously subversive, tremendously revolutionary institution that he found. It's all saying, I'm not doing anything. I'm looking for the transcendent nirvana, and actually meaning it. But the irony being that the one who truly transcends the world is the one who has the truly great impact on the world. So just as Shakyamuni did that as an individual in India,

[18:37]

we see the Chan and the Zen institutions doing that in China and Japan. And I always argue this, and I just want to partially, for fun, because it illustrates my thesis before turning the floor over to the wise teachers, I want to finish with, partly because it illustrates my thesis, and partly just for fun, because it's such a dangerous thing to do in the presence of all these masters, to use a koan to illustrate a sociological, historical point, that because of its danger, it thrills me. Therefore, I'm going to do it. But I learned to do this, or I developed to doing this, that I can be somewhat forgiven because I have been battling in academic forums for so long against all these scholars who, as I say, follow the old Max Weber thesis that Buddhism was some sort of otherworldly thing that never quite landed on this planet and had no impact at all. And particularly they love to point to Zen, certain people who shall be unnamed at the moment in this company, and they say, see, look, those Zen masters, they didn't care anything about any kingdoms or planets or countries, they were completely unethical, they didn't care about ethics,

[19:38]

and they just offered to Shunyata and to them you could blow a bomb off in their ear, they wouldn't care and all this, and they love to say that. And they pick out certain kind of stories of Zen where the Zen masters show their transcendence of normal worldly concerns to pretend that they're not actually having a great impact on sentient beings, to pretend that they're not actually exercising the great compassion of truly transforming Chinese society. And so just to spite them, I always love to read the 18th koan of the Blue Cliff Record according to Tom Cleary's translation. I know some people don't like Tom Cleary's translation. I like it. I have looked at the Chinese, in fact, and I've asked many certain scholars and even Zen masters who claim that it's not good, and I've asked them for a single linguistic reason of why it's not good. You know, like one character that was wrongly translated and no one has yet shown me one sentence, and I read Chinese, haltingly, but I read it, they have not yet shown me one sentence that was blatantly mistranslated. The reason that his thing, I think, is so good is because the koans themselves are in colloquial Chinese of the Tang Dynasty which nobody speaks anymore.

[20:38]

You haven't seen any Tang Dynasty hippies around lately. And nobody knows quite therefore what many of the things meant. They depend on medieval Chinese and then later Japanese commentaries, and that's all just as speculative as we might speculate. And Cleary had the temerity to translate it into colloquial English. So he sort of made the total jump, you know, as a matter of intuition, non-dual intuition. He went from colloquial Tang Dynasty Chinese right down to Berkeley. Berkeley street talk. So how can some people in Tokyo or Kyoto evaluate that? They don't know what American colloquial English is like. They have no idea when you say where someone is at. They don't know what that means. Nobody, about one more, when Tom Cleary says no one knew where he was at. How is some guy in Kyoto, some great scholar, supposed Zen scholar, going to know what that means? He has no idea. So I claim him incompetent to judge Tom Cleary. Excuse me, Roshi. Anyway, I love this particular koan, and I want to read it as a political tract. As a Jeffersonian document in Chinese politics. Case. It's called National Teacher Zhong's Seamless Monument.

[21:44]

Emperor and the Case, as he translates the koan. You know, public case, he translates. Emperor Suzong asked National Teacher Hui Zhong. That's the emperor of the Tang Dynasty. Most powerful man in China. That's the Chinese nation in the old imperial way. He said, after you die, what will you need? This emperor asks this master. The National Teacher said, Build a seamless monument for me. The emperor groaned. That's not in here. And said, please tell me, master, what the monument would look like. Seamless monument, that means no seam between two stones, between two boards. Seamless means no seam. Start thinking about the carpentry of that. What would it look like? The National Teacher was silent for a long time. Ultimate escape.

[22:47]

Then he said, do you understand? Very common phrase in Zen. And the emperor came back with the killer, the Zen killer phrase. I don't understand. Wo bu zhi dao. Wo bu zhi dao. Wo bu zhi dao. No knowing. No knowing. That's the famous same sign as Bodhidharma used so long ago. No knowing. Wo bu zhi dao. Wo bu zhi dao. The National Teacher said, I have a disciple to whom I have transmitted the teaching. Tan Yuan. Who is well versed in this matter. Please summon him and ask him about it. After the National Teacher passed on, apparently the emperor was in no hurry. After the National Teacher did pass on, the emperor summoned Tan Yuan and asked him what the meaning of this was. Tan Yuan, not at a loss for words, said, South of Xiang, north of Tan.

[23:55]

In between, there's gold sufficient to a nation. Beneath the shadowless tree, the community ferry boat. Within the crystal palace, there's no one who knows. And they don't say what the emperor did after that. Nobody says. Nobody says. Now, this to me is, no, the commentary, I just want to read a little of this commentary. It's really great. He says, The relationship between the emperor and this Chong, and this master Chong. The emperor was himself an adept. He was a Zen student. Have no impact on the nation. A nation like China, when the emperor of the nation is your student, you don't tell me that's not having any impact. The emperor treated Chong with an etiquette due to a teacher and greatly honored him. Chong, that is the Zen master, once lectured on the supreme path for the emperor. When the master departed from court, the emperor himself escorted his carriage and saw him off.

[24:59]

The courtiers were all angry at this and wanted to make their displeasure known to the emperor. That is the Confucians. They were furious. The emperor should get down off his throne. They were furious about it. Because position of the emperor was all important to the Confucians. Charisma and position and playing games about where you sit. Total big thing in China. But the national teacher had the power to know the minds of others, so he saw the emperor first. And told him, in the presence of Indra, that's the king of the gods, I have seen emperors scattered like grains, evanescent as a flash of lightning. The emperor respected him even more after this. So then it goes on. About the seamless monument. And he doesn't really give a... Oh yeah, oh yeah, this one. I knew there was one more thing I wanted to do. My late teacher Wuzhu, that's the writer of the compiler of Blukey Fricker says, My late teacher Wuzhu brought up the seamless monument.

[26:00]

And said, in front it is pearls and agate. In back it is agate and pearls. On the east are Avalokiteshvara and Mahasthamaprapta. On the west are Manjushri and Samadapadra. And in the middle, there's a flag blown by the wind, saying, flap, flap. I love that. The national teacher said, do you understand? The emperor said, I don't understand. Yet he had attained a little bit. But tell me, is this I don't understand the same as emperor Wu's I don't know? That is the Wu of Bodhidharma, you know. Or is it different? Although they seem the same, actually they are not. And then he goes on with the commentary. Now let's just look at ourselves. I can read more of this commentary. And I will close with a poem, a commenting poem, because it's so beautiful. But let's look at it. South of Shang, north of Tan, means...

[27:01]

This is a deep koan, I know. And you have to meditate on it at least ten years, and be hit over the head a number of times, and all this and all that, and it's very good, and then you might jump out the window or something, and you'd know. But without knowing, a non-knowing way of doing it, there's a few clues that we can use. South of Shang and north of Tan, it means everywhere. Shang Tan is the birthplace of the national master Chung. It's the name of a town, Shang Tan. It's like saying south of New and north of York. South of San and north of Francisco. That means everywhere throughout the country. In between, there's gold sufficient to a nation. Remember our terms of our saying, what I said before, that the Buddhist principle of dharma... Remember, this is describing before that, this is describing a seamless monument. Now, a seamless monument, remember, a monument... Now, a national teacher is a great man. And a ruler, now, is going to honour a great man. We honour Washington and Jefferson. We put monuments up, and people go and see them once in a lifetime, or they see a picture. And then they go back to business as usual,

[28:02]

and back in the Senate, and they cheat, and they are corrupt, and they steal, and they don't practice the dharma, and they don't try to become enlightened. And they make two separate spheres out of the nation, and natural greedy behaviour, and religious behaviour. A seamless monument means that you can only make a monument that is the whole life of the nation. You can only honour enlightenment by putting enlightenment throughout completely to fill the life of the nation. Clearly, it has to mean. And so the Vampera, who is a wise man, no, a seamless monument, aha, I don't get to honour you by putting a fenced-off place where we go, and then we are nice when we are there. People in a ritual, when they are in a Zen, they are nice. I love all sentient beings. I love you. When they go in the kitchen, they say, I hate you. Are you making me wash the dishes twice? You dropped the plate. So we want to have two spheres. He wants, Huizhong wants, the Vampera to have all one sphere, where enlightenment is the life breath of the nation, where the nation is for enlightenment, enlightenment not for the nation. The nation is for education, in the sense that we made in the last couple of days. Not that education is to produce some people, to produce something for some nation. Okay? So in that sense,

[29:03]

the Vampera catches it right away. Seamless monument, aha. Maybe he catches it. Let's give him more credit. He's a Zen adept. And naturally, what do Vamperas say when you ask them to make the national budget concentrate on education? We can't afford it. We don't have any money. We can't have any scholarships. We can't have schools. There's no free lunch. Everybody has to work. We have to have army, missiles. How can we pay so many schools and Zendos? Oh, we're too poor to have so many Zendos. We can have BMWs, but not Zendos. So therefore he says, in between, in this country, there's gold sufficient to a nation. Wealth is a matter of whether you think there's wealth. If you have an idea of abundance, there is abundance. If you don't, there isn't. So he completely cut out the Vampera's economic excuse to start with. This nation is full of gold. There's so much gold, there's no, don't know what to do with it. So much gold, in the millennium, the British will come and try to steal it. Then, okay, then you say, okay, seamless monument. The nation is enlightenment. Are we going to go back to old-fashioned tribalism, some sort of primitive animism where everything is sacred and the ground and the earth

[30:04]

and the rice seeds are sacred and therefore the peasants can stay in their field moaning and groaning and not get educated and the ladies in the kitchen and we'll just say it's sacred and it's all one and non-dual, so let them slave. Is it that kind of seamless monument? Should we make a non-dual monument where ignorance is non-dually in charge of everything? No, he says. Beneath the shadowless tree, the community ferryboat, the shadowless tree is which tree? It is the tree of enlightenment. The tree that is beyond sun and moon and day and night and duality is the tree of the enlightened nervous system. It's the Bodhi tree of which Shakyamuni sends the tree of life. It's the tree beyond life and death, blah, blah, blah, and you can find also many other things and you can also remain silent, but at one level we can clearly see it as a symbol of the Dharma, the source of the Dharma in the Buddha's heart. The actual Dharma, which is not a doctrine, but the Dharma which is freedom itself, the truth of the Dharmakaya, transcendent reality itself. This is the shadowless tree. All ordinary trees, dualistic trees, all have shadows. Now beneath that shadowless tree, although it has no shadow, there is a beneath. It has a shelter of something.

[31:05]

What should it shelter, that shadowless tree? A community ferryboat. A community ferryboat does not allow monism to creep, non-dualism to creep over into monism and say that it's all one so nobody needs education. A ferryboat takes people across from one shore to another. It takes people from this shore of ignorance to that shore of enlightenment. It takes them back and forth and it comes back for those who are left behind and it takes them over. It is the monastic institution in China. It is an educational system in China. Unfortunately, nobody quite finished this seamless monument yet in China, so they kept a separate Confucian government school and the monastic school and then later therefore kings kept throwing them away. In any case, the ideal was to have the whole system of the nation's education devoted to the carrying of the individuals across on this community ferryboat. And then finally, the king might have one final excuse. He might say, okay, I understand. I got enough money. I can't say that's my excuse. Nobody can invade us. We have this greatest empire under heaven. We have so many rice plants we don't know what to do with it. We have plenty of gold.

[32:07]

So I can't say that. Enlightenment is also here. I can't say we don't have enlightenment. The shadowless tree has erected from the hearts and minds of many enlightened beings. The Dharma is fully here. The community ferryboat, we know about the Vinaya. We know of the sutras. We know the individuals should have their life, their precious human life to use to achieve enlightenment, even those peasants in the field, if possible. Okay, I know, groan and moan. But maybe I better think about it a little longer, he might think. Maybe I have to understand history. Maybe if we do this too soon, we'll be conquered by the barbarian Mongols who come in too soon. Maybe we'll lose our national defense. Maybe something will go wrong until I know for sure. Maybe I've got to get to be Buddha myself first before I really turn the nation over to the Dharma. So since I don't know for sure, I better not do it. And then his last, within the crystal palace, there's no one who knows. Even Buddha doesn't know in the way you think you're going to wait to know. Of course, Buddha also knows everything. But in another way, even Buddha doesn't know in the way you're going to wait

[33:09]

as an excuse to know. In Shantideva's famous statement, Buddhas are beings who act only for others' benefit. As children are beings who act for their own benefit. Therefore, when you act only for others' benefit, you are Buddha. That is being non-dual Buddha. As Roshi says, that's when you'll treat other beings like Buddha, is when you treat them for them. Not for yourself. Not for any end of your own. But they are the ends in themselves to you. Buddha has nothing left to do. He's completely bored. He's living in Dharmakaya. You are Dharmakaya too. Talk about ultimate boredom, imagine everything is just Dharmakaya. Nothing can agitate out of the Dharmakaya. No form, no agitation, no excitement can break free of the complete uniformity of emptiness Dharmakaya. And therefore, there's only people who think it isn't Dharmakaya have anything of interest to do. And therefore, Buddha's only interest is to unravel their confusion. Therefore, he only exists for them. So therefore, without knowing you act for others, you are Buddha. That means emperor. Without knowing, for sure, this history, that history, you just open the gates of your nation. You unilaterally disarm on this planet of nations.

[34:09]

You become tolerant. You become a nation that is enlightened. And you turn over your national budget, your national energy, your national thing to enlightenment. In this way, you can commemorate me, says the enlightened master, Huijun. In this way, you build me a seamless monument. And don't pretend you don't know. And you're going to know later, and then you'll be unselfish. And since you don't know, you can still be selfish. But this is one little attempt. I know it's an academic, it's not a Zen way of doing it. It's a little academic attempt. I just thought, though, you can see how much fun I had in academic conferences with it, though, rejecting colleagues who tried to pretend that Zen had no impact on society in China and Japan over the thousands of years that it lived there. To conclude, in the verses written by Xue Dou, the writer of the Compiler of the Blue Cliff Record, just because they're lovely, then I will stop. It says, The seamless monument, to see it is hard. A clear pool does not admit the blue dragon's coils. Layers upon layers, shadows upon shadows,

[35:11]

forever and ever, it is shown to people. Now, that's enough academic talk. Thank you. Perhaps, now, I don't know the order. We didn't decide order, but... What did you say? If you would go ahead and talk about your sense of monasticism in Japan or wherever or whatever. Well, I think... If you want to scold me, that's all right. I'll be patient. Yesterday, I listened to Tara Talk with the explanation of a Tibetan monastery. Now, Dr. Sermon talks about Chinese monasteries, et cetera. I feel kind of a jealousy

[36:13]

of Tibetan monasteries and Chinese monasteries because they are building the wonderful seamless monument of Zen Buddhism in China, in Tibet. It's going on right now, but in Japan, it's a little bit difficult to say about that. So, I have to build up maybe a useless, boring monument of Japanese monasteries. I think some of you, they went to Japan and you already saw the Japanese present situation of the monasteries. I think you don't understand Japanese Buddhism. I don't either. It's a very strange situation there. But I can say a little bit

[37:18]

basic of the spirit of Japanese monastic system from my experience. Probably I cannot tell you exactly the scholastic point of view about Japanese monastic system, but I can say a little bit about Japanese monastic system. I became a monk at 18 years old and before that, at 15 years old, I visited a small Zen monastery because I had the chance to visit with my friend, a friend of mine, who was the son of Soto Zen, the priest. So, I went visit there. There was no reason

[38:19]

why I went there, just to visit there. So, I was very surprised because completely different situation there, but circumstances was perfect peace, peaceful. I was very surprised. But that was already before Second World War. Now, I was not interested in Zen monastery and etc. Because my family's life was pretty busy situation, running the business and Japanese restaurants and etc. Every day, I had never had the very warm communication with the parents. The father and mother. Mother was obviously in bed with sickness for many years.

[39:22]

So, I couldn't have enough communication, warmness. My father was very busy with running the business, etc. So, my brothers took care of the family's life and business situation. So, I was the youngest, you know. So, whatever I want to do, they don't care. So, anyway. But I was growing up in a very busy situation. So, I visited Zen monastery. I was very shocked because perfect peaceful, perfect peace. I have never had. Then, the Second World War was going. I joined the army and the air force when I was 16 years old. Then, after Second World War,

[40:25]

I was 18 years old. Then, my friends also said to visit the Zen monastery. Again, so I visited. The second visit, I was also very shocked by the second visit because situation of Zen monastery never changed. Same situation. But in my life, in my family, the situation after Second World War, before Second World War, completely different. But Zen monastery, exactly peaceful. But they suffered a lot from the lack of food, etc. But life is exactly going smoothly, peace. I never see, I never saw

[41:28]

anything to change. So, I was very shocked again. Then, well, I decided to become a monk when I was 18. Then, I went to age monastery. But I didn't have any idea of what the Zen teaching was, what the Zen monastic life was. Just went to, I just went to age monastery. Then, that was also big shock for me because every day was completely set up, you know. From 3 o'clock, at that time, 3 o'clock, you know, get up, you have to get up at 3 o'clock. 3 o'clock to the 9 o'clock at night, you know, exactly whole schedule. All days are completely set up

[42:31]

and everyone exactly followed. Age monastery didn't have such a lot of visitors. We have now. Pretty quiet situation, right after Second World War. But society, present atmosphere of society was very confused. But age monastery still very peaceful and they followed the same schedules and living in peace and harmony. So everything, everything was completely new for me. Chanting, and 120 monks. But in Tibet, in Tibet monastery, the Tarot talk mentions 6 or 7 thousand monks chanting every day, debating, and can you imagine how wonderful the situation and mystic mood coming up. Everyone completely

[43:32]

saccharine anyway. You cannot get any delusions, you know, exactly you are you are embraced in Buddha land. You know, 6 or 7 thousand monks. Now I, when I was at age monastery, I took care of 2 thousand people. They were visitors, not monks, you know. But you have to take care of 2 thousand people, that makes you really busy. We didn't have any electric things and cutting, chopping up vegetables with a hand. For 2 thousand monks, can you imagine how can you take care of 6 thousand people's food? Zampa!

[44:33]

I was very impressed. Someday I would like to visit the Tibetan monastery and I would like to have a chance to be saved by Buddha. I don't get anything. So, the life pattern in the age monastery is very clear and rhythmical. Life is very rhythmical. Without saying anything, just listen to the sound of the bell from the Zen-do and Hat-do, Buddha-ho, Dharma-ho. Just listen to the sound and then you can know what to do. That was really fascinating for me. Usually, my family is busy, running the business, always screaming,

[45:39]

you should do this, you should do that. Guests come, you have to welcome, you have to receive the people's customs and say, welcome here, what can I do for you? Something like that. But, no words. That was very impressive for me. So, my life was anyway going on in that situation. Most impressive thing was not debating, in Japan, not debating, we call it Shosan means exactly kind of debating. Zen students say Dharma-fighting. Dharma-combat. Combat. I don't know what it is. So, I was very surprised

[46:43]

to see that situation. You should say something to the Zen masters, Roshi and Roshi answered immediately with a short phrase and sentence, etc. Using the traditional term, it's a big term, you don't understand what it is, what he said. But, you can touch the spirit. So, I was very impressed. I didn't understand what he said, but it made a big shock every time. So, I get something from that. So, I was very impressed. I really wanted to do that. So, one day I had a chance because I was a head monk for the training sessions, three months of training. I was the first monk, so I had to ask the questions first.

[47:44]

So, I was very proud of myself and I did it. Then, immediately I was very, I had the intention, kind of intention. And also, on that end, I felt kind of sure. I have to do exactly right. And then, quietly, move slowly and ask him. Then, he immediately answered to my questions. Completely, I was spaced out. I remember what I said. I remember what I said, but after that, completely I don't know. I don't know what he said. So, I thought, this is Dharma combat? What is this?

[48:47]

What is this? But, I was very impressed. Since I came to the United States, I had the first time the training session at the Tassara. So, I explained what the schedule of the monastery is. Chino sensei was there and set up a schedule and then, I couldn't escape from the combat. Dharma combat. So, anyway, I did. At that time, I'm not a questioner. I had to be a Roshi. So, a little bit difficult. But, anyway, I did. Then, in the beginning, everything is fine. You know that my English is Karagiri English.

[49:49]

Through the Karagiri English, I have to answer as perfect as I can. Then, in the beginning, it was all right. Everything was fine. In the middle, one of the students who used to practice at the New York Zen Dojo, Rinzai Zen, he came up in front of me and immediately screamed, and hit the question. You know? Right in front of me. So, I tell you now, as a model fan, I was jumped up. I was jumped up. But, right after that,

[50:53]

I have to say something. So, I have to say something, jumped up, and immediately I say, go back to your room. What's your problem? And then, everyone laughed. Then, I thought, this is a combat? So, I was, in a sense, I was very ashamed of me because I jumped up. But, apparently, I didn't jump up. Like, like this. I didn't tell anybody

[51:54]

until now. So, you know who the Zen master is? Uh, Anyway, the, I'm sorry, a little bit. We won't tell the student, don't worry. The system of age monastery, the apparently the very confused and also spirit of denial is already going not well. You cannot expect the spirit of denial from age monastery

[52:56]

or at the Buddhism, Zen Buddhism as a whole in Japan. And also, solo Zen is kind of a strange situation because most of people read Zen through the book most of people know Zen through the book. So, that Zen is Rinzai Zen. So, people believe Zen is very popular in Japan and supported by emperors and etc. And also helping Japanese culture and Japanese people so much. But, solo Zen is completely opposite. So, Dogen Zenji, you know that Dogen Zenji didn't help Japanese culture at all. Only Rinzai Zen master, many Rinzai Zen master

[53:56]

helped Japanese culture. So, Japanese culture, you can see now, is really established by Zen teacher. Rinzai Zen teacher. Not solo Zen. So, solo Zen is really boring. But, I think spirit of solo Zen is spread the basic nature of Japanese life. I say boring, useless, boring they would say monument of Zen, this is really true. If you expect something from solo Zen, you immediately feel boring. But, it's really deep. It's really deep. For instance, spirit of Dogen Zenji's way is penetrating to Japanese basic

[54:58]

nature of life. They don't care the religions and etc. Particularly, education, educational system in Japan. Not school education, generally speaking. For instance, Japan, if you want to be carpentry and storytellers, you have to find a teacher and go there and live there and learn the story from the teacher. Then, several times the teacher kicked you out. Nevertheless, you shouldn't leave. Again and again, you should ask. This is the first step. It's ridiculous from the modern sense. Anyway, if you are allowed to accept,

[55:59]

you can live there with the teacher. But, from the next day, the teacher never gives you how to tell the story. All you can do is to clean the house and fix the meal. Cleaning the yard. That's ridiculous. Finally, you think why do you want to be a storyteller? Why do you want to be a carpenter? Because there's no sense. It's useless. Always get up in the morning and cleaning the house and making breakfast and etc. But, this educational system is very important for us. For instance, according to the modern educational system,

[57:02]

I think you have to learn A, B, C, D. H, I, J, K, E, F, G, etc. You have to memorize and you have to learn one by one. But, I think the human knowledge is limited. You never memorize everything perfectly. You never digest everything perfectly. So, someday, you forget the B. When people ask you, what did you learn at school? Yes, I learned A. And, what is B? I don't know. What is B? It's very great. Systematically, if you learn something A, B, C, D, E, F, G, but it is not perfect because around A, if you have to focus on studying, memorizing, thinking,

[58:03]

contemplating, around A, do you know how many mediate beings exist around in your everyday life? For instance, when you get up in the morning, how many beings exist? Psychologically, and also mentally. Mentally and materialistically, how many beings exist around? But, according to systematic educational sense, you just focus on A, ignoring the many beings connected with A. But, this system of education, they're learning something through cleaning the house, making breakfast, taking care of the broom and the shovels after using, cleaning the shovels, you have to put back the broom, what

[59:06]

it was, exactly. You cannot throw it away. Teachers always look at what you are doing. If you behave improperly, immediately he says, you should do this, in that way. So, that is education. And then, learning around many beings around A, you have to really want. the monastic system didn't give you A. First, they give you many beings around. Then, you have to take care of around many things. This is very good for us. For instance, I am talking about this, I am talking now. You pay attention to me, always, and then

[60:06]

you know what I am talking about. So, you memorize, you know what I said. Then, after listening, the next day, the day after tomorrow, somebody said what Karagiri said about Japanese monasticism. But, you can say, yes, he said A. He said about B. He said what C is. You forget. But, around C, maybe, let's imagine, black cats walking in front of you. And then, maybe you don't pay attention to black cats, but you pay attention to me. But black cats walking in front of you, really tiny beings, you don't pay attention. But, it is very important for us. So, cats, you don't pay attention, is exactly content of your life.

[61:07]

Consciously or unconsciously. So, you have to live together. So, how can you live? Totally. What situation, in what situation you are living. It's huge. Not systematic. Then, Zen teaching, and also, usual Japanese people educate their disciples and etc. Like that. And then, from that educational system, we can facilitate development of intuition. Do you understand? Intuition means, you can catch the whole situation, not picking up one. Consciousness always picking up one. But, intuition is exactly catch the whole situation. If I see,

[62:09]

the gentleman, exactly intuition catch the total picture of one gentleman. And then next, consciousness start to work and pick up one. Oh, his nose is beautiful. Something like that. So, you have to educate, you have to facilitate development of education. Intuition means, you have to anyway, educate you and others as a whole, to understanding, to accept situation as a whole. So, in order to systematical education, you cannot learn around many beings around A, B, C. So, that's why it's really boring. I went to, I became a monk and studying and living with my teachers and he didn't

[63:10]

give me anything. Every day, I have to get up in the morning, chanting the sutra, you know, the zazen, making breakfast for him, washing his clothes, and picking up grasses in the yard, which is big, you know, by myself. In the rainy seasons, I pick up grass this corner and I finish the whole yard and then end of the cleaning the whole yard and then I look at the beginning. I started. It's already a new grass grow. Then I have to come back again. And that, every day, going. So, I was really suffering a lot from my life. Why I became a monk? But this is, that was really good for me. So,

[64:10]

this is one day, so that Zen way of education gives you two points. One is to learn the human life as a whole. As a whole. Facilitating the development of intuition. Second, through this education, you can practice naturally, egolessness. Because egolessness. So, no room for me to poke my head, you know. Because every day, busy, every day, I have to do it. So, this education is really based on Dogen's way of Buddhism. He mentions in the Shobo Genzo, etc. So, it's not showy. It's not emphasizing

[65:14]

so much, you know, the fantastic things. So, every day, you have to take care of everyday life. That is same applied to the age monastery and the small monastery around in Japan. I visited twice. So, that's why I feel very peaceful from the Zen monastic life. Should I say something? Maybe you should say something. Next, your time. Very good.

[66:15]

We have about 15 minutes. If you'd like to talk, and then when we meet again on Friday evening, if you want to say more then, anyone wants to say more then, fine. And then we can, I think, start after that with any questions, which the discussion so far may have promoted. Excuse me, but you say at 9 we'll take, we'll have some questions, I don't think we should... No, no, at 9 o'clock we'll stop. We'll have some questions in case they have that. We can run a little over. Alright, we'll run a little over, but I also want to make opportunity at 9 for anyone who wishes to leave. You and I can talk. But one more thing. Anyway, this time I went back to Japan to see several people and talking about this is not exactly

[67:16]

a clear but definite decision, but we are thinking, start to think about international monastery for American people and et cetera. Looking at the Japanese situation, I don't accept exactly Japanese monastic situation exactly. So, maybe we have to do something anyway. But for Japanese it's very difficult to change. And also for Americans it's very difficult to start real Zen here and et cetera. So, anyway, we are both, Americans, Japanese, whichever I go, a little bit confused, not confused, a little bit concerned about. So, somebody has to do something anyway.

[68:17]

So, maybe we can start to do something. I don't know why. But I have to make a plan for next year in Japan, so I have to do it. I don't have any money, et cetera, but anyway, let's try. Let's try what? Try to practice and establish the International Monastery in Japan. I don't know how. But we can, I can start. We can start by building a bridge from here. Maybe so. Any questions? So, you

[69:26]

talked about personal aspect of Japan's monastic structure of life. Since we have very limited time, something which immediately beneficial to our practice here, I'd like to select one or two discussions that is close to how the building

[70:26]

of the monastery is consistent and how people are living in there, in the physical monastic building structure. I hear Eheji had about 75 buildings at one most established time. And all of them were connected with corridors like a vein

[71:28]

of a body. But the main present monastery of Eheji, especially Eheji, has a very functional construction structure. The main hall which takes place in the highest part of the rather steep hillside of the temple that is called Dharma Hall. And then

[72:30]

straight below that in the center is the Buddha Hall. And straight below that in the center is the main mountain gate. And facing to these three buildings is the right side which is my if I place my head as a Dharma Hall and gate as my womb.

[73:35]

The Buddha Hall is a hut. And left side is a kitchen. And right side is a maybe you can refer it to the lung located zendo. Sodo or zendo. And

[74:41]

left side and right side left side and left side. Bathroom is located in the left. And bathing room is located in the left side. This is how the structure of the building is arranged. And one of your friends, old friend Katzen Philip Wilson visited AHAG and practiced with us. And he was very intuitive person.

[75:41]

Walking around he was a Stanford regular member of Stanford soccer. All American football players. Most valuable players. Big guy. And one day we were talking in the shuryo, the monk's gathering room. About this size of the room. He expressed his feeling about the AHAG and his his own feeling who he is. First he said sitting on the

[76:43]

cushion in each time it felt like horseback riding. And AHAG building and its functioning felt like a giant lying on the hill. Which reminds me the stupa that the national master was talking about in one of the koan case in Blue Cliff. There are many things in that koan and how to build how to build a true stupa which is

[77:44]

crystal crystal clear no one can see. Only you create but you do not know how it is shaping its whole universe. You might say it is a universe itself but that universe you might say it is your temple still have your own interpretation about how you want to observe it. It is very true.

[78:54]

He said also being in the monastery as a beginner monk is like blood going through the whole body and coming through zendo is like going through lung and carry the new oxygen and go again in the body. That was his impression which might be very helpful for you especially who practice in the communal condition of practice here. I

[79:57]

actually came from Heiheiji Monastery directly to Tassahara to help Kiroshi and Katagiri Roshi and all new students there. The first year of Tassahara. Maybe without knowing living condition of necessity of monastic life, monastic practice in this country at that time. But I knew from the high school time

[81:07]

I was sensing something is going to happen to my life. The summer of the 24 years old my age my master after the festifying ceremony of Japanese congregation of those who came together in the temple for commemoration of their children's father passed away in the Second World War.

[82:08]

So he I was Gisha he was Doshi and I went back to the back room of the temple and he sat there and said, Kogun come close to me. I still remember he was very serious his face was very serious. Now the ceremony is over and from now you are going to go out from this door and talk to those people. Passed away

[83:11]

their dead children's father I have never spoke I have never spoke in public before that time so I was so surprised and I have never prepared anything to say he said you have no choice today I made a ended up making my first bow at that

[84:12]

short talk not only the soldiers nurses, doctors those who passed away Japanese brave warriors conductors protectors all people who sacrificed in that war I want to relive them their life again that was my vow and my interest was study of my ancestors

[85:22]

all the ancestors those who ceaselessly drew me like Buddha's life all world well known saints and sages my study of literature was focused on biography of those people in Tripitaka and I still do not to satisfy with my study on knowing those ancient people

[86:22]

we knew, we know they are living there and still the literature in the library as a textbook that is when I have time I want to read those people's biography monastic life was very very hard as each of you experienced it looked like peaceful and it is certainly Shinkiroji and all leaders' consideration to set up best kind of

[87:26]

atmosphere in this present society and we are lucky to be able to practice in this atmosphere together or joining from the outside from the daily life among people and yet contradiction of the personal achievement of peace the more you cultivate you are able to cultivate and learn the harmony and peace of our life

[88:28]

as a person as a friend as a member of the sangha immediate member of the sangha intensely you reflect the suffering of other people this is a continuous challenge how to reach out how to go on and dig our how can I say jinsuriki something very strong will and energy and renew to relate with the condition we have got it feels creating monastery is a vehicle of emergency

[89:40]

case to to how can I say not to tend to the change of the world by structure but to to brotherhood and sisterhood to extend in this world I think that is a key point I stop talking

[90:26]

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